Mesut Özil retires from "die Mannschaft"

[Zlatattack]

What a load of horseshit. I‘m not a fan of either, but acting like they are comparable is just stupid.

Yeah because you're not black. If you were, you might feel there is comparison. America has more blood on it's hands than the Nazi's, yet you people glorify America and villifiy (rightfully so) the Nazi's. There is a hypocritical double standard.

 

[Zlatattack]

He does have the right and if he chooses to do it publically, then he will incur the consequences of that publically. Erdogan is a very bad person and if Ozil supports the Kurdish genocide and politcal imprisonment of Erdogan's opposition then he is a terrible person himself.

Just like the majority of turks then? They didn't vote how white western europeans want them to so they must be savages?

 

[fcbforever]

You see this is the problem here. Europeans are intolerant of alternative political views. I'm Kashmiri, I'm Pakistani, I hate Modi (the PM) of India, but I respect people's right to vote for him and to support him. I hate Benjamin Netanyahu, he's a mass murderer but I support peoples right to support him. I hate Donald Trump but if someone wants to fondle the balls of a racist orangatan, then it's their right to do so, I support them in that right.

In Europe you pay lip service to political freedom, but don't actually respect it. The majority of Turks voted for Erdogan. Media outlets can be bought, millions and millions of voters cannot. Erdogan represents what the majority of Turks want. You HAVE to respect their right to make that choice.

Bullshit again. Nobody is not respecting it. But nobody can force us to like it either. Your whole argument is so unbelievably weird. „You have to accept someone’s opinion, but I do not accept your opinion that Erdogan is an authoritarian shithead!“

 

[fcbforever]

Yeah because you're not black. If you were, you might feel there is comparison. America has more blood on it's hands than the Nazi's, yet you people glorify America and villifiy (rightfully so) the Nazi's. There is a hypocritical double standard.

What the feck. I’m not a friend of America either, but stop with these horrible comparisons. They don’t paint a good picture of you.

 

[B20]

Bullshit again. Nobody is not respecting it. But nobody can force us to like it either.

Forcing a player off the team is most essentially not respecting it.

 

[fcbforever]

Forcing a player off the team is most essentially not respecting it.

Does he have some kind of godgiven right to be on it? No. Don’t act like he lost some job or contract here. But anyway, we were talking about the Turkish electorate here anyway, not Özil.

 

[squiggle]

You see this is the problem here. Europeans are intolerant of alternative political views. I'm Kashmiri, I'm Pakistani, I hate Modi (the PM) of India, but I respect people's right to vote for him and to support him. I hate Benjamin Netanyahu, he's a mass murderer but I support peoples right to support him. I hate Donald Trump but if someone wants to fondle the balls of a racist orangatan, then it's their right to do so, I support them in that right.

In Europe you pay lip service to political freedom, but don't actually respect it. The majority of Turks voted for Erdogan. Media outlets can be bought, millions and millions of voters cannot. Erdogan represents what the majority of Turks want. You HAVE to respect their right to make that choice.

You're saying that if a Pakistani cricketer had a photo-op with Modi there wouldn't be a bit of a fuss?

 

[mancan92]

What a load of horseshit. I‘m not a fan of either, but acting like they are comparable is just stupid.

Yeah it wasn't the same british empire which has literally caused the worst atrocities in the history of humanity. Many of the beliefs and thoughts and decisions still having huge consequences today. Look at the recent disaster of the windrush generation which was caused by the current prime minister which is another example of crimes against "Lesser people" that the west has done for as long as society has been around. I don't see anyone getting mad at people taking pictures with her.

 

[africanspur]

you mean that ridiculous online vote which his instagram fanboys have been dominating? Don’t take that as a reflection of how German fans think of his performances. Criticize Hoeneß all you want, he’s right about Özil. He’s been pointless for a long time now and saying that doesn’t suddenly make you racist, although Özil seems to believe that in his little bubble.

I mean other 'instagram fanboys' can also get involved in that vote you realise right?

Who has said that criticising Ozil makes you racist? Do you genuinely believe anyone, including Ozil, believes that?

 

[tenpoless]

To be fair to him, I too would prefer to retire from a team called "the man shaft".

 

[RW2]

You see this is the problem here. Europeans are intolerant of alternative political views. I'm Kashmiri, I'm Pakistani, I hate Modi (the PM) of India, but I respect people's right to vote for him and to support him. I hate Benjamin Netanyahu, he's a mass murderer but I support peoples right to support him. I hate Donald Trump but if someone wants to fondle the balls of a racist orangatan, then it's their right to do so, I support them in that right.

In Europe you pay lip service to political freedom, but don't actually respect it. The majority of Turks voted for Erdogan. Media outlets can be bought, millions and millions of voters cannot. Erdogan represents what the majority of Turks want. You HAVE to respect their right to make that choice.

Whataboutery does not work here.

If I go and steal €1000 from a bank I won't be defending myself with "Yeah but what about others?"

Staging a coup d'etat is not an "alternative political view". There are millions of Turks living in Germany. A prominent German footballer giving refuge to someone like Erdogan could destabilise Germany.

 

[B20]

Does he have some kind of godgiven right to be on it? No. Don’t act like he lost some job or contract here.

He has the same right as everyone else - to be judged on sporting merits.

You seem to endorse that the value set of the DFB should be "whatever the feck we want. We will arbitrarily be checking with the court of public opinion, interpreting it as we see fit. Any objections shall be met with "do you have a godgiven right to anything here? then feck off."

I am basically just advocating the principles of a lawful society. Sadly, it seems many who oppose the undemocratic tendencies of the modern world think that the best way to oppose it is to go undemocratic on its ass and make exceptions for the principles of law so we can witch hunt it out existence.

 

[Zlatattack]

Bullshit again. Nobody is not respecting it. But nobody can force us to like it either. Your whole argument is so unbelievably weird. „You have to accept someone’s opinion, but I do not accept your opinion that Erdogan is an authoritarian shithead!“

I didn't say that. I also don't think there is anything wrong with authoritarianism. You see it's a cultural think. In Europe the idea of democracy and it's Greco-Roman origins are deeply embedded and sacred. In a lot of eastern societies, our social structures have always been authoritarian. It's fine, it's a sacrifice we're happy to make (traditionally anyway) for stability, progress and good governance. That doesn't mean authoritarianism = tyranny, or that it means unaccountability.

Now if you're accusing Erdogan of tyranny, well maybe your right, i'm not a Turk, but the vast majority of Turks just did vote for a Tyrant. Mind you that's happened before. People voted Hitler.

 

[MuranoLover]

Nevertheless , Ozil seems a nice guy and he did the right thing

 

[MalcolmTucker]

You see this is the problem here. Europeans are intolerant of alternative political views. I'm Kashmiri, I'm Pakistani, I hate Modi (the PM) of India, but I respect people's right to vote for him and to support him. I hate Benjamin Netanyahu, he's a mass murderer but I support peoples right to support him. I hate Donald Trump but if someone wants to fondle the balls of a racist orangatan, then it's their right to do so, I support them in that right.

In Europe you pay lip service to political freedom, but don't actually respect it. The majority of Turks voted for Erdogan. Media outlets can be bought, millions and millions of voters cannot. Erdogan represents what the majority of Turks want. You HAVE to respect their right to make that choice.

Alternative political views = genocide and political imprisonment. This is just a load of waffle - you're telling us we have to respect someone's right to political opinion but you can't respect our right to dislike it? What the hell are you on about?

Just like the majority of turks then? They didn't vote how white western europeans want them to so they must be savages?

I have a feeling you're extremely uninformed about Erdogan, which is surprising seeing as you've been replying to mine and other's posts highlighting the various attrocities he has committed. Anyone who votes for genocidal authoritarian willfully is a bad person yes, or at least a stupid person. People voted for Hitler too.

 

[Zlatattack]

Whataboutery does not work here.

If I go and steal €1000 from a bank I won't be defending myself with "Yeah but what about others?"

Staging a coup d'etat is not an "alternative political view". There are millions of Turks living in Germany. A prominent German footballer giving refuge to someone like Erdogan could destabilise Germany.

Staging a coup? I think you'll find a coup was staged against him.

Also what are the 3 million Turks going to do? Over throw 80 million Germans and declare their own country? Don't be silly.

 

[squiggle]

I didn't say that. I also don't think there is anything wrong with authoritarianism. You see it's a cultural think. In Europe the idea of democracy and it's Greco-Roman origins are deeply embedded and sacred. In a lot of eastern societies, our social structures have always been authoritarian. It's fine, it's a sacrifice we're happy to make (traditionally anyway) for stability, progress and good governance. That doesn't mean authoritarianism = tyranny, or that it means unaccountability.

Now if you're accusing Erdogan of tyranny, well maybe your right, i'm not a Turk, but the vast majority of Turks just did vote for a Tyrant. Mind you that's happened before. People voted Hitler.

If you have no problem with authoritarianism then you should have no problem with any German decisions about their football team, however arbitrary they might seem to you.

 

[RW2]

Staging a coup? I think you'll find a coup was staged against him.

Also what are the 3 million Turks going to do? Over throw 80 million Germans and declare their own country? Don't be silly.

You don't know what you're talking about.

The poor little dictators. . . Always they are the victims.

 

[Zlatattack]

Alternative political views = genocide and political imprisonment. This is just a load of waffle - you're telling us we have to respect someone's right to political opinion but you can't respect our right to dislike it? What the hell are you on about?



I have a feeling you're extremely uninformed about Erdogan, which is surprising seeing as you've been replying to mine and other's posts highlighting the various attrocities he has committed. Anyone who votes for genocidal authoritarian willfully is a bad person yes, or at least a stupid person. People voted for Hitler too.

You can dislike it, that's fine. My problem is with the holier than thou attitude in this discussion. How many non Muslims are so triggered when public figures support Israel? A country which is committing daily attrocities?


We have a saying in punjabi, "Your dog is a dog and my dog is Tony". It means people are affectionate towards their own dog and treat it as a member of the family, but other people's dogs are considered dogs (looked down upon).

It's stupid to mention it because it won't really translate because Britain loves dogs...lol

 

[Zlatattack]

You don't know what you're talking about.

The poor little dictators. . . Always they are the victims.

Did you miss the tanks on the streets of Ankara and the fighter jets shooting at parliament?

 

[fcbforever]

He has the same right as everyone else - to be judged on sporting merits.

You seem to endorse that the value set of the DFB should be "whatever the feck we want. We will arbitrarily be checking with the court of public opinion, interpreting it as we see fit. Any objections shall be met with "do you have a godgiven right to anything here? then feck off."

I am basically just advocating the principles of a lawful society. Sadly, it seems many who oppose the undemocratic tendencies of the modern world think that the best way to oppose it is to go undemocratic on its ass and make exceptions for the principles of law so we can witch hunt it out existence.

The NT has always been more than just sports. Özil has been treated pretty nicely when compared to the past. Effenberg was thrown out of the team for four years after he gave some fans the finger in 1994. So don’t act like this is „undemocratic“ and bending principle. The NT isn’t a democratic institution anyway. Sincerely, feck off with that.

And if we judge Özil on sporting merits, we would have a problem. He would have been out of the team by 2016 at least.

 

[B20]

Staging a coup? I think you'll find a coup was staged against him.

and he used this to stage his own takeover, by tyrannic measures.

Also what are the 3 million Turks going to do? Over throw 80 million Germans and declare their own country? Don't be silly.

I think you are missing some nuances here. Its been a big problem in Europe that Erdogan has basically been running a political campaign in Europe for european-resident turks. Which is a violation of all sorts of democratic and international codices. Moreover, he has been encouraging European turks to report other European turks for 'gulen sympathy' and similar 'insidious activity', complete with anonymous phonelines and actual registries and profiles being made by Turkish intelligence because of it, creating a situation where a turkish-born European could be unknowingly reported due to personal grudge or something and get arrested for this when he comes to visit family in Turkey. Nevermind the fact that it is directly encouraging spying on your fellow citizens and reporting this to a foreign state, which is essentially treason.

So yeah, there are big problems with Erdogan and Europe beyond what is happening inside Turkey. Erdogan ais actively encouraging a subversive pan-european turkish culture.

 

[Zlatattack]

If you have no problem with authoritarianism then you should have no problem with any German decisions about their football team, however arbitrary they might seem to you.

Not really - my problem is with the hypocrisy. If Germany said they're an authoritarian state (like China) and demanded whatever, that's fine - people can comply or fight or leave. Germany talks the talk of liberty and freedom and then gives people like Ozil treatment like a second class citizen.

 

[Ban]

I didn't say that. I also don't think there is anything wrong with authoritarianism. You see it's a cultural think. In Europe the idea of democracy and it's Greco-Roman origins are deeply embedded and sacred. In a lot of eastern societies, our social structures have always been authoritarian. It's fine, it's a sacrifice we're happy to make (traditionally anyway) for stability, progress and good governance. That doesn't mean authoritarianism = tyranny, or that it means unaccountability.

Now if you're accusing Erdogan of tyranny, well maybe your right, i'm not a Turk, but the vast majority of Turks just did vote for a Tyrant. Mind you that's happened before. People voted Hitler.

What an absolute car crash of a post. It seems you don't know much about Turkey, Erdogan and German Turkish relations. If you're happy to make a sacrifice for tiranny many millions are not.

Millions of Turks were harrased and imprisoned for allegedly being involved in a stage coup. I guess they're happy to make a sacrifice too.

 

[fcbforever]

I didn't say that. I also don't think there is anything wrong with authoritarianism. You see it's a cultural think. In Europe the idea of democracy and it's Greco-Roman origins are deeply embedded and sacred. In a lot of eastern societies, our social structures have always been authoritarian. It's fine, it's a sacrifice we're happy to make (traditionally anyway) for stability, progress and good governance. That doesn't mean authoritarianism = tyranny, or that it means unaccountability.

Now if you're accusing Erdogan of tyranny, well maybe your right, i'm not a Turk, but the vast majority of Turks just did vote for a Tyrant. Mind you that's happened before. People voted Hitler.

„I respect every political decision, bot those pesky Europeans and their democracy!“

 

[K2K]

So right-wing = racist now? When it comes to politics I consider myself more right-wing than left but in no way shape or form does that mean that I'm racist. That's nothing to do with it.

My apologies.

Should have said extreme or far right.

 

[B20]

The NT has always been more than just sports. Özil has been treated pretty nicely when compared to the past. Effenberg was thrown out of the team for four years after he gave some fans the finger in 1994. So don’t act like this is „undemocratic“ and bending principle. The NT isn’t a democratic institution anyway. Sincerely, feck off with that.

It is a public institution in a democratic country. That sets a certain standard.

It has always been an abiding principle of sporting institutions to keep politics at an arms length.

And if we judge Özil on sporting merits, we would have a problem. He would have been out of the team by 2016 at least.

Which is neither here nor there, so not sure what point you think to be scoring there.

 

[hasanejaz88]

What a load of horseshit. I‘m not a fan of either, but acting like they are comparable is just stupid.

Is supporting Obama, a man responsible for the deaths of over 1000 innocent civilians in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Yemen comparable then? Please, cut the sanctimonious bullcrap. There are many politicians around the world who the west are happy to cuddle with, despite horrible things they have done, if it meets their interests. Germany is about to play in Qatar FFS, they did just play in Russia as well, where are the calls to boycott the tournament from the same people if you care so much about human rights and want Ozil to be fired because of a bloody picture?

 

[ColoRed]

I mean other 'instagram fanboys' can also get involved in that vote you realise right?

Who has said that criticising Ozil makes you racist? Do you genuinely believe anyone, including Ozil, believes that?

Özil believes that, yes. I´m quit sure of that. I really don´t like Hoeneß in the slightest way but he nails it concerning the sporting part; the problem is if you play
the racism card in Germany you open the gates wide open for populism and generalisations from all directions. It´s a big mess right now, losers on all sides. DFB and Özil
fecked it up and made it easy for racists to jump on the bandwagon.

 

[K2K]

What does having a picture with a Turkish president have to do with comments such as 'Turkish swine' (can't remember the exact quotes) etc? You can't say those comments against him are only because of the picture.

You are intentionally ignoring the point I am making .

I am not saying that they aren't some people using this to advance their racist agendas. In fact I even alluded to that in my post. But I am also saying that not everyone criticized Ozil because they are racist. You are conveniently ignoring that part .

 

[roonster09]

This guy talks too much crap

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Wow, what a classless cnut. Didn't expect anything better from him though.

 

[do.ob]

It is a public institution in a democratic country. That sets a certain standard.

It has always been an abiding principle of sporting institutions to keep politics at an arms length.

It's a hand picked elite squad, not a public library, you don't need to do something that can be prosecuted in court to be kicked out. And while the NT is generally apolitical in the sense that it's above partisanship it certainly is very much political when it comes to endorsing despots. Players were seen as representatives of Germany long before any issues with Özil or Erdogan, hence Effenberg getting send home during the WC 94.

 

[mancan92]

Is supporting Obama, a man responsible for the deaths of over 1000 innocent civilians in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Yemen comparable then? Please, cut the sanctimonious bullcrap. There are many politicians around the world who the west are happy to cuddle with, despite horrible things they have done, if it meets their interests. Germany is about to play in Qatar FFS, they did just play in Russia as well, where are the calls to boycott the tournament from the same people if you care so much about human rights and want Ozil to be fired because of a bloody picture?

The people who constantly defend the actions of the west will never ever discuss these points. To address these problems will be to understand there is no good or bad countries or people which means people in the west will no longer be able to have a hollier than thou attitude.

 

[hasanejaz88]

You are intentionally ignoring the point I am making .

I am not saying that they aren't some people using this to advance their racist agendas. In fact I even alluded to that in my post. But I am also saying that not everyone criticized Ozil because they are racist. You are conveniently ignoring that part .

I agree, not all of the comments are racist but that doesn't mean an argument regarding it shouldn't be opened because there have been quite a few of them.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

You can dislike it, that's fine. My problem is with the holier than thou attitude in this discussion. How many non Muslims are so triggered when public figures support Israel? A country which is committing daily attrocities?


We have a saying in punjabi, "Your dog is a dog and my dog is Tony". It means people are affectionate towards their own dog and treat it as a member of the family, but other people's dogs are considered dogs (looked down upon).

It's stupid to mention it because it won't really translate because Britain loves dogs...lol

I like that saying, especially as it appears that you guys call your dogs Tony lol

Lots of non-muslim people condemn Israel and I don't know a single public figure from the UK that endorsed the treatment of Palestinians by Israel so your point isn't analogous - if someone did I would expect a backlash too. You're now using whataboutery about something that hasn't even happened and if it has please enlighten me.

 

[hasanejaz88]

It's a hand picked elite squad, not a public library, you don't need to do something that can be prosecuted in court to be kicked out. And while the NT is generally apolitical in the sense that it's above partisanship it certainly is very much political when it comes to endorsing despots. Players were seen as representatives of Germany long before any issues with Özil or Erdogan, hence Effenberg getting send home during the WC 94.

For comparison sakes, please give me a list of people who aren't acceptable to be taken a photo with? This seems the crux of the problem, that you are equating Ergodan to be this maniacal, murderous dictator amongst the worst people in society; which is far from the fact because many people in his own country support what he's done for his country since he came into power.

 

[Zlatattack]

I like that saying, especially as it appears that you guys call your dogs Tony lol

Lots of non-muslim people condemn Israel and I don't know a single public figure from the UK that endorsed the treatment of Palestinians by Israel so your point isn't analogous - if someone did I would expect a backlash too. You're now using whataboutery about something that hasn't even happened and if it has please enlighten me.

Look you and I condemn Israel, but if The Argentine National team had played a friendly in Tel Aviv as originally planned, perhaps even met their PM, who they be slated for it? More importantly SHOULD they be slated for it? I think it's their right to make that choice without being called baby killers, or supporters of tyranny.

 

[fcbforever]

I mean other 'instagram fanboys' can also get involved in that vote you realise right?

Who has said that criticising Ozil makes you racist? Do you genuinely believe anyone, including Ozil, believes that?

This statement of his clearly shows Özil believes that. He is not the only one being so delusion in the NT, Kroos is amongst the worst offenders there, but still.

And nobody has as many brainless instagram idiots as Özil. Especially from outside the country. And this is the important part: nobody in Germany will ever vote in that poll. It was always an PR instrument pushed by foreign PR agencies. It has no heritage (it only exists since 2010), participation is shitty and nobody gives a feck about it. Ask anyone in Germany about it and nobody will know it. We have a POTY award that's widely recognized and Özil never won that.

 

[fcbforever]

Look you and I condemn Israel, but if The Argentine National team had played a friendly in Tel Aviv as originally planned, perhaps even met their PM, who they be slated for it? More importantly SHOULD they be slated for it? I think it's their right to make that choice without being called baby killers, or supporters of tyranny.

Not playing there was stupid but yes, I would have critized them for meeting Netanjahu. Don't act like this is hard. It's only if you lack any kind of moral compass.

 

[fcbforever]

Is supporting Obama, a man responsible for the deaths of over 1000 innocent civilians in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Yemen comparable then? Please, cut the sanctimonious bullcrap. There are many politicians around the world who the west are happy to cuddle with, despite horrible things they have done, if it meets their interests. Germany is about to play in Qatar FFS, they did just play in Russia as well, where are the calls to boycott the tournament from the same people if you care so much about human rights and want Ozil to be fired because of a bloody picture?

No, it's not. Neither in magnitude nor in any other way.