Mesut Özil retires from "die Mannschaft"

[Cait Sith]

Erdogan might be an authoritarian leader but he's still, by a huge margin, a democratically elected (time and time again) president that no country is sanctioning for anything. Every political leader is meeting and doing deals with Erdogan, uncluding Merkel who has a shady refugee deal with Turkey in place so that Turkey stops more refugees entering Europe. Merkel herself took photos with Erdogan shortly before Turkish elections many times which was interpreted in Turkey as support for Erdogan's election. If politicans do not draw a red line why expect this from a footballer?

Many Germans, including the media used this photo as an excuse to finally be able to throw insults at a guy with Turkish-Muslim heritage, nothing else. The guy got racial abused and the media printed the story as "Özil having a go at fans."

There is also another backstory why Germany is so butthurt about Erdogan. About 2 years ago a third class German comedian wrote a song where he personally (and in parts racially) abused Erdogan. He openly called him a pedophile, a sodomist and so on. Erdogan sued him and a German court ruled that most passages of the song with the personal insults are illegal and not to be distributed anymore. Since then the entire German media is having a vendetta against Erdogan ("but hurr durr free speech"). Before that German media were licking his ass and portraying him as a great reformer for Turkey who helped the economy grow, all the progressive voices from Turkey were unheard.

 

[do.ob]

But is that Ozil's fault?

Erdogan was on a state visit to the UK at the time its worth saying - so our government were more then happy to host him in this country. Does that mean our government were supporting him in the elections?

Also, on a completely separate note... Has Angela Merkal ever had her picture taken with him? Or with any other dodgy political figure? Also, has any German player or "legend" put their weight behind the Qatar WC bid?

Heads of state have to maintain diplomatic ties, even with unsavory rulers, a football player doesn't have that obligation - as seen for example by Can not attending that dame meeting.

 

[hasanejaz88]

What has the response today in the German papers been to this?

 

[ArjenIsM3]

What has the response today in the German papers been to this?

Most of it's about Hoeness' response, who said he's been playing crap for years and didn't deserve to be in "die Mannschaft" in the first place. Quite harsh to be honest.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Most of it's about Hoeness' response, who said he's been playing crap for years and didn't deserve to be in "die Mannschaft" in the first place. Quite harsh to be honest.

This is resurfacing racism tendencies within Germany. Rather than opening a debate on the racist treatment Ozil has received, and how Grindel handled the situation, people are still having a go at Ozil himself. It looks like they simply do not want to acknowlegde it exists.

 

[K2K]

Most of it's about Hoeness' response, who said he's been playing crap for years and didn't deserve to be in "die Mannschaft" in the first place. Quite harsh to be honest.

He has a point with regards to the football.

Although Hoeness should be keeping quiet considering his indiscretions.

 

[MadMike]

But is that Ozil's fault?

Erdogan was on a state visit to the UK at the time its worth saying - so our government were more then happy to host him in this country. Does that mean our government were supporting him in the elections?

Also, on a completely separate note... Has Angela Merkal ever had her picture taken with him? Or with any other dodgy political figure? Also, has any German player or "legend" put their weight behind the Qatar WC bid?

Key words: State Visit. The government still has to deal with heads of nations even those they see as opponents. It’s part of their jobs. Obama met with Putin, don’t mean they endorsed one another. That’s state business.

Özil turned up at a private speech and then went to sign a jersey. Not quite the same I think we can agree.

In my eyes he was endorsing Erdogan. If the DFB had a problem with that they should have banned him before the WC not scapegoated him after.

 

[Cait Sith]

What has the response today in the German papers been to this?

Depends which media you read. The ones who used a picture of Özil as the headline when Germany crashed out of the World Cup come up with atrocities like these:

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/faz-net-sprinter-oezil-macht-es-nur-noch-schlimmer-15703461.html ("Özil is only making it worse").

 

[K2K]

This is resurfacing racism tendencies within Germany. Rather than opening a debate on the racist treatment Ozil has received, and how Grindel handled the situation, people are still having a go at Ozil himself. It looks like they simply do not want to acknowlegde it exists.

There is undeniably a right wing element to this. But they are just using this to further their own agenda and would have used something else if they could.

But it's simply a lie to say that all the criticisn that Ozil has gotten has been because he is Turkish. It's because the photo was with Erdogan and all that he represents. If it had been just another run of the mill Turkish politician, most wouldn't have cared. Ozil has largely ignored that part.

 

[stu_1992]

Seems to me that Ozil should have been a little smarter with this, he should have known the fallout from such a photo. It was never going to be only seen as a person of Turkish ancestry posing with the Turkish head of state. However the fallout from this is hugely disproportionate. If it's true that he's being scapegoated for Germany's performances at the WC as a result of this, that's ridiculous. It definitely sounds like a case of racism from that explanation. It's a shame he feels the need to make that decision, but it sounds like he's right in all honesty.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

There is undeniably a right wing element to this. But they are just using this to further their own agenda and would have used something else if they could.

But it's simply a lie to say that all the criticisn that Ozil has gotten has been because he is Turkish. It's because the photo was with Erdogan and all that he represents. If it had been just another run of the mill Turkish politician, most wouldn't have cared. Ozil has largely ignored that part.

So right-wing = racist now? When it comes to politics I consider myself more right-wing than left but in no way shape or form does that mean that I'm racist. That's nothing to do with it.

 

[hasanejaz88]

There is undeniably a right wing element to this. But they are just using this to further their own agenda and would have used something else if they could.

But it's simply a lie to say that all the criticisn that Ozil has gotten has been because he is Turkish. It's because the photo was with Erdogan and all that he represents. If it had been just another run of the mill Turkish politician, most wouldn't have cared. Ozil has largely ignored that part.

What does having a picture with a Turkish president have to do with comments such as 'Turkish swine' (can't remember the exact quotes) etc? You can't say those comments against him are only because of the picture.

 

[Member 90887]

The two clusters that you can clearly see in this thread are people that were/are in Ozil's situation, that have been racially abused before, who know how it feels, who can clearly understand how he sees things and people that do not see it.

The signed Arsenal shirt was an error of judgment from his side. i think nobody is arguing otherwise. But the lack of understanding and the type of comments in this thread are exactly why people in his situation feel like he does.

 

[MadMike]

So right-wing = racist now? When it comes to politics I consider myself more right-wing than left but in no way shape or form does that mean that I'm racist. That's nothing to do with it.

Nothing to do with it apart from the fact that historically in every country racists were strongly identifying with the right wing.

I’m not saying that every person on the right wing is racist but let’s not act stupid about which section of the political spectrum they tend to reside in.

Also the word “wing” implies non-moderate in English. It implies people on the far side of the spectrum (left or right) when used. You wouldn’t say “I’m more right wing than left”.

 

[Stacks]

Mesut Özil retires from "die Mannschaft" according to Bild.

In my opinion the DFB did everything wrong, they should have suspended him right after he made those pictures instead of using him as the scapegoat for the WC failure.

Why should he be suspended for being seen with a Head of state, especially one of his ancestral country? utter nonsense

 

[Zehner]

Erdogan might be an authoritarian leader but he's still, by a huge margin, a democratically elected (time and time again) president that no country is sanctioning for anything. Every political leader is meeting and doing deals with Erdogan, uncluding Merkel who has a shady refugee deal with Turkey in place so that Turkey stops more refugees entering Europe. Merkel herself took photos with Erdogan shortly before Turkish elections many times which was interpreted in Turkey as support for Erdogan's election. If politicans do not draw a red line why expect this from a footballer?

Many Germans, including the media used this photo as an excuse to finally be able to throw insults at a guy with Turkish-Muslim heritage, nothing else. The guy got racial abused and the media printed the story as "Özil having a go at fans."

There is also another backstory why Germany is so butthurt about Erdogan. About 2 years ago a third class German comedian wrote a song where he personally (and in parts racially) abused Erdogan. He openly called him a pedophile, a sodomist and so on. Erdogan sued him and a German court ruled that most passages of the song with the personal insults are illegal and not to be distributed anymore. Since then the entire German media is having a vendetta against Erdogan ("but hurr durr free speech"). Before that German media were licking his ass and portraying him as a great reformer for Turkey who helped the economy grow, all the progressive voices from Turkey were unheard.

The bolded part is true, the rest is bullshit. Claiming Erdogan was democratically elected is already a huge stretch since the conditions in Turkey are not exactly good enough to speak about free elections. As far as I know, Erdogan imprisoned more than 50,000 people, he had the constitution changed, controls the media, imprisons politicians and journalists based on false accusations, appoints family members as ministers and so on.

Attributing the whole conflict to Böhmermann (who's a class a German comedian, by the way) however is downright silly. In what world was Erdogan depicted positively in the German media until then? He was already criticized heavily for his acts against kurdish people. Even before Böhmermann's satirical poem extra3 made a song against him. A positive reception of Erdogan's policies maybe occurred during his first campaigns but at least not in the last four to five years.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

Nothing to do with it apart from the fact that historically in every country racists were strongly identifying with the right wing.

I’m not saying that every person on the right wing is racist but let’s not act stupid about which section of the political spectrum they tend to reside in.

Also the word “wing” implies non-moderate in English. It implies people on the far side of the spectrum (left or right) when used. You wouldn’t say “I’m more right wing than left”.

Thank you for clarifying the meaning of "wing". Didn't know that. So basically, when you say either left-wing or right-wing you mean it in a negative way. Left-wing being fecking hippies who like to throw money down the drain and right-wing being fecking Trump or something. Correct?

 

[Zehner]

Heads of state have to maintain diplomatic ties, even with unsavory rulers, a football player doesn't have that obligation - as seen for example by Can not attending that dame meeting.

And Özil doesn't have ties? Huge parts of his fans are probably from Turkey, probably many of his friends and family members would react negatively if he had refused to meet Erdogan. Look at someone like Naki. It could've had negative consquences for his people in the Turkey or those who want to travel there. I would've wished he had did it the Can way but not everybody is a rebel and you can't judge him for that. He said that this wasn't a political statement. If he meets with Angela Merkel you would never understand this as supporting the CDU, would you?

It is also silly to speak about Özil's responsibility when we are holding WCs in Katar and Russia which are even worse than Erdogan and Turkey concerning human rights, free speech and in Katar's case especially working conditions and modern slavery and nobody badges an eye at the DFB. Surely, if Özil has political responsiblity then the DFB as the biggest and richest national football association should make his influence work in order to prevent such clear violations of human rights?

 

[hasanejaz88]

The bolded part is true, the rest is bullshit. Claiming Erdogan was democratically elected is already a huge stretch since the conditions in Turkey are not exactly good enough to speak about free elections. As far as I know, Erdogan imprisoned more than 50,000 people, he had the constitution changed, controls the media, imprisons politicians and journalists based on false accusations, appoints family members as ministers and so on.

Attributing the whole conflict to Böhmermann (who's a class a German comedian, by the way) however is downright silly. In what world was Erdogan depicted positively in the German media until then? He was already criticized heavily for his acts against kurdish people. Even before Böhmermann's satirical poem extra3 made a song against him. A positive reception of Erdogan's policies maybe occurred during his first campaigns but at least not in the last four to five years.

You can not have a 100% idea about the fairness of the elections unless you live there. This is one thing I have learnt recently given my country (Pakistan) is about to have elections day after tomorrow, the coverage on guardian has been completely biased in favour of the current ruling party and far from the actual reality in the country.

As Dezel Washington very aptly said "if you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read it you're misinformed". Newspapers have a narrative and they run with it no matter how the reality may be. Outside of football news, I've lost faith in interntional newspaper reporting, guardian used to be high on the list of newspapers I trusted.

I agree with your second post though, very true. People are hypocritical regarding how they react to these situations. Politicians and DFB presidents are happy to travel and meet with presidents of countries like Russia and Qatar, where the conditions of humans rights are poor as well, the public is fine with it, but when a player does it he has to be fired and explain himself.

 

[mancan92]

Talk about hypocrisy and lack of self-awareness, at the start of his letter:
"I have two hearts, one German, one Turkish".

At the end of his letter:
"Are there criteria for being fully German which I do not fit? My friend Lukas Podolski and Miroslav Klose are never referred to as German-Polish, so why am I German-Turkish? Is it because it is Turkey? Is it because I'm Muslim? I think here lays an important issue. By being referred to as German-Turkish, it is already distinguishing people who have family from more than one country".

Well gee, one surefire way of being referred to as German-Turkish would be by describing yourself as half German and half Turkish.

Your missing the point mate. My heart is in Nigeria and England but I have lived in England my whole life. If people constantly question whether I am British and treat me differently from other British people I take huge offense.

 

[Abizzz]

You can not have a 100% idea about the fairness of the elections unless you live there. This is one thing I have learnt given my country (Pakistan) is about to have elections day after tomorrow, the coverage on guardian has been completely biased in favour of the current ruling party and far from the actual reality in the country.

As Dezel Washington very aptly said "if you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read it you're misinformed". Newspapers have a narrative and they run with it no matter how the reality may be.

Come on, the imprisonment of tens of thousands after the coup (including loads of political adversaries) isn't some newspaper conspiracy or spin. While one might not be able to judge the fairness of an election 100% from abroad it is perfectly valid to say that Erdogan hasn't displayed the characteristics the west would expect from a democrat.

 

[VanGaalEra]

This guy talks too much crap

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[MadMike]

Thank you for clarifying the meaning of "wing". Didn't know that. So basically, when you say either left-wing or right-wing you mean it in a negative way. Left-wing being fecking hippies who like to throw money down the drain and right-wing being fecking Trump or something. Correct?

Correct, there’s negative connotations to being on either wing.

 

[africanspur]

Come on, the imprisonment of tens of thousands after the coup (including loads of political adversaries) isn't some newspaper conspiracy or spin. While one might not be able to judge the fairness of an election 100% from abroad it is perfectly valid to say that Erdogan hasn't displayed the characteristics the west would expect from a democrat.

No I wouldn't class Erdogan as a democrat. I wouldn't vote for him and I find mixing politics and religion deplorable. You get a lot of people on here though who seem to basically equate him with Kim or Stalin or something and it is overly simplistic imo to simply say he's a 'dictator' as if someone is either just dictator or democrat and that is it. I've met plenty of Turks who hate Erdogan and plenty who support him and love him (both in and out of Turkey).

The response has been well over the top and I'm interested which political figures people would think it is ok to take a picture with and which are not? Where is the line drawn exactly?

Hoeness is a complete prick and his comments don't seem to fit in with how German fans have voted for the past 10 years? I can completely see what Ozil is saying and his comments about being Turkish when he loses are comments that many European sportsmen have made (including Lukaku most recently). Terrible.

 

[Member 90887]

This guy talks too much crap

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Childish, but what do you expect from someone like him ... he lacks class.

 

[Zehner]

You can not have a 100% idea about the fairness of the elections unless you live there. This is one thing I have learnt recently given my country (Pakistan) is about to have elections day after tomorrow, the coverage on guardian has been completely biased in favour of the current ruling party and far from the actual reality in the country.

As Dezel Washington very aptly said "if you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read it you're misinformed". Newspapers have a narrative and they run with it no matter how the reality may be. Outside of football news, I've lost faith in interntional newspaper reporting, guardian used to be high on the list of newspapers I trusted.

I agree with your second post though, very true. People are hypocritical regarding how they react to these situations. Politicians and DFB presidents are happy to travel and meet with presidents of countries like Russia and Qatar, where the conditions of humans rights are poor as well, the public is fine with it, but when a player does it he has to be fired and explain himself.

Sorry, but it is simply wrong to criticize news paper coverage in case of Erdogan. The Yücel arrest was no media invention, the imprisonment of around 50,000 citizens was no media invention, the record refugee numbers of Turkish people are no media invention and the war against the Kurdish is no media inventon. I have myself spoken to Turkish students who came to Germany in the last 2-3 years who are absolutely devastated concerning the developments in Turkey. Defending a despot who controls the media and censors/prohibits Social Media (even going as far as imprisoning people for using a messenger popular among government opponents) by claiming that the German and international press is not to trust is just wrong.

 

[SV_Planegg]

This is for all the civil rights activists here who use facebook and are offended by Ozil getting a self-admittedly completely apolitical pic with Erdogan

Spoiler

http://sustg.com/deputy-crown-princ...sabi-tour-facebook-meet-with-mark-zuckerberg/

Iirc, the bearded guy in the pic still doesn't let women drive by themselves in his country and also proclaimed recently on a tv interview on his business tour in the USA that he'll rule until he's dead- not a hoot from anywhere was heard. Let us know how your boycott of facebook goes.

And this, for people who type out of a Windows PC

Spoiler

http://www.arabnews.com/node/1276601/saudi-arabia

Never a fan of whataboutism, but had to be done to lend some perspective.

Tbh this doesn't lend much perspective at all because these cases and "Erdogate" are incomparable on so many levels. Zuckerberg meeting with Mohammed bin Salman of course speaks volumes about him as a person and about facebook as a company, but that's a seperate issue. Mohammed bin Salman never directly intefered in european politics encouraging public disorder, so apart from entertaining a similar approach to Erdogan in govermental structure and repression of minorities within his own country, the similarities pretty much end there.

Erdogan on the other hand directly interfered with Germany's inner state affairs by naming their population "Nazi descendants" or accused their leading figures of "using Nazi methods" on several occassions, trying to pressure german pliticians into allowing him and his ministers to publicly speak in favor of their election campaign on german soil, which is simply not possible due to current law, stating that only politicians from EU member states are allowed to do so, under the condition that public order and safetey can be guaranteed. Even the US president wouldn't be allowed to speak in favour of his election campaign, so why should Erdogan be allowed to? Erdogan further ordered the imprisonment of several german journalists and sought to agitate Germans of turkish ancestry by claiming them to be turkish first, that they needed to learn turkish as their first language (since they're supposedly not real germans but "his" brothers and sisters) and shouldn't let themselves be "assimilated" into the german culture, driving a wedge between Germans of turkish ancestry and other parts of the german population. He further accused Germany of supporting terrorism. There's one quote of his that sums him and his agenda up pretty well: "Democracy is only the train we board until we reach our goal. The mosques are our barracks, the minarets our bayonets, the domes our helmets and the faithful our soldiers."

As a person of public interest in Germany, I'd never take a friendly picture with that person while not expecting any backlash from local citizens and media, no matter my ancestry. At that point both Gündogan and Özil should have been expelled from the national team immediately. The german team regularly advertizes for cultural diversity and democratic values, which Erdogan openly stands against. Gündogan and Özil of course are free to choose their actions as they see fit, but they are not free from the consequences of those actions, much like everyone of us.

The scapegoating by DFB after the WC is a whole different ballgame. Some heads will need to roll for that one. Bierhoff's and Grindel's behaviour was further damaging Özil's reputation putting the media's focus on him instead of the poor performance from the team as a whole. Both should hang their heads in shame and step down while openly apologizing to Özil.

 

[redshaw]

Your missing the point mate. My heart is in Nigeria and England but I have lived in England my whole life. If people constantly question whether I am British and treat me differently from other British people I take huge offense.

I'm reading Ozil is third generation born in Germany, are you third generation?

It is surprising to me one can be so attached to the politics of Turkey being third generation German, unless of course you're brought up by your parents that instil you're still Turkish.

 

[Member 90887]

No I wouldn't class Erdogan as a democrat. I wouldn't vote for him and I find mixing politics and religion deplorable. You get a lot of people on here though who seem to basically equate him with Kim or Stalin or something and it is overly simplistic imo to simply say he's a 'dictator' as if someone is either just dictator or democrat and that is it. I've met plenty of Turks who hate Erdogan and plenty who support him and love him (both in and out of Turkey).

The response has been well over the top and I'm interested which political figures people would think it is ok to take a picture with and which are not? Where is the line drawn exactly?

Hoeness is a complete prick and his comments don't seem to fit in with how German fans have voted for the past 10 years? I can completely see what Ozil is saying and his comments about being Turkish when he loses are comments that many European sportsmen have made (including Lukaku most recently). Terrible.

The first part is spot on, there's just a lot of bias from people in here.

You can add Zlatan to the second part of your post and this is without talking about some of the french players (Benzema, Ben arfa and so on ...).

 

[africanspur]

I'm reading Ozil is third generation born in Germany, are you third generation?

It is surprising to me one can be so attached to the politics of Turkey being third generation German, unless of course you're brought up by your parents that instil you're still Turkish.

Is it offensive to you that somebody may still be attached to their roots?

 

[mancan92]

I'm reading Ozil is third generation born in Germany, are you third generation?

It is surprising to me one can be so attached to the politics of Turkey being third generation German, unless of course you're brought up by your parents that instil you're still Turkish.

Yeah I am 3rd generation English. But have loads of family in Nigeria,have visited many times,grew up with the culture and traditions.

And like Germany in England if you are not white English you are respected up to a point but never fully accepted. So it's hard to fully accepted being English when alot of people try their best to make you feel like you aren't.

 

[Member 90887]

Is it offensive to you that somebody may still be attached to their roots?

That's just crazy. it reminds me of last week's trevor noah's row with the french ambassador. at some point he said, why can't the french player be both french and proud of their African heritage. why is it that when they won the world cup they are only french and nothing more and when something bad happen, nobody says that they are just french people and points out to their 'african' heritage.

Why does nobody call out americans ( of Irish origins or Italian origins). There's no problem there. They can cling to their origins even if they are from 3/4th generation, they can celebrate irish and italian celeberations without anyone batting an eye.

 

[JuveGER]

Rather than opening a debate on the racist treatment Ozil has received, and how Grindel handled the situation, people are still having a go at Ozil himself.

There is plenty of debate about the racist treatment of Özil, Bierhoff and Grindel are widely criticised for the way they are handling the situation. It's not black and white. You can criticise Özil, the DFB and the racists all at the same time.

 

[HerrLeinad]

Is it offensive to you that somebody may still be attached to their roots?

Can we please stop with this "roots" bs? This whole thing isn't about Turkish roots unless you think Turkish roots means Erdogan and not showing the necessary values of the country you were born and raised in.

If someone actually thinks he has to support people like Erdogan because of his "roots" then this just shows a lot of problems and where our "multicultural" society still fails (and again I say this as someone whose family has Croation '"roots" but I feel 100% German, no ifs or buts).

 

[squiggle]

Talk about hypocrisy and lack of self-awareness, at the start of his letter:
"I have two hearts, one German, one Turkish".

At the end of his letter:
"Are there criteria for being fully German which I do not fit? My friend Lukas Podolski and Miroslav Klose are never referred to as German-Polish, so why am I German-Turkish? Is it because it is Turkey? Is it because I'm Muslim? I think here lays an important issue. By being referred to as German-Turkish, it is already distinguishing people who have family from more than one country".

Well gee, one surefire way of being referred to as German-Turkish would be by describing yourself as half German and half Turkish.

He's quoting Podolski, I think. Podolski has spoken of himself as having two hearts, one German, one Polish.

But I'd be pretty disappointed if Podolski chose to publicly align himself with Poland's Law and Justice Party - so although Ozil has a point, he's missing another point. You can't associate yourself as a private person (as opposed to a political role) with a repressive regime and not expect people to be upset.

 

[africanspur]

That's just crazy. it reminds me of last week's trevor noah's row with the french ambassador. at some point he said, why can't the french player be both french and proud of their African heritage. why is it that when they won the world cup they are only french and nothing more and when something bad happen, nobody says that they are just french people and points out to their 'african' heritage.

Why does nobody call out americans ( of Irish origins or Italian origins). There's no problem there. They can cling to their origins even if they are from 3/4th generation, they can celebrate irish and italian celeberations without anyone batting an eye.

Very true. Americans seem to revel in their previous heritage but there is more of a backlash in Europe.

I was genuinely asking that poster, I didn't want to make assumptions. I hope he/she isn't.

 

[Abizzz]

No I wouldn't class Erdogan as a democrat. I wouldn't vote for him and I find mixing politics and religion deplorable. You get a lot of people on here though who seem to basically equate him with Kim or Stalin or something and it is overly simplistic imo to simply say he's a 'dictator' as if someone is either just dictator or democrat and that is it. I've met plenty of Turks who hate Erdogan and plenty who support him and love him (both in and out of Turkey).

The response has been well over the top and I'm interested which political figures people would think it is ok to take a picture with and which are not? Where is the line drawn exactly?

Hoeness is a complete prick and his comments don't seem to fit in with how German fans have voted for the past 10 years? I can completely see what Ozil is saying and his comments about being Turkish when he loses are comments that many European sportsmen have made (including Lukaku most recently). Terrible.

Hoeneß is a cnut, has always been one, and is unlikely to change. There's a reason this video has millions of views (entire stadium singing "Hoeness you ar...hole" while he is interviewed on live tv. Edit: Thats the wrong video, it's from afterwards, can't find the original).

Spoiler: German football fans thoughts on Hoeness

Yeah the part about being German when successful and Turkish when not rings true, agree with that.

On Erdogan there is also the thing that Erdogan does repeatedly insult Germans and Germany and has done so in extreme terms. If playing for your country is representing your country then I think it's a legitimate question whether someone who represents a country should pose with and help a politician who is so openly hostile towards the nation he represents. I don't think one needs to be a racists to criticize that.

But then again there's loads of racists who would'nt have cared if it had been a Russian posing with Putin...


Anyways, there's a massive upside for me to all of this: Finally everybody here (in Germany) agrees with me that the leadership of DfB is disastrous. I've been saying so for years so I can tell everyone "told you so"

 

[squiggle]

That's just crazy. it reminds me of last week's trevor noah's row with the french ambassador. at some point he said, why can't the french player be both french and proud of their African heritage. why is it that when they won the world cup they are only french and nothing more and when something bad happen, nobody says that they are just french people and points out to their 'african' heritage.

Why does nobody call out americans ( of Irish origins or Italian origins). There's no problem there. They can cling to their origins even if they are from 3/4th generation, they can celebrate irish and italian celeberations without anyone batting an eye.

No, Trevor Noah was out of his depth there. It's a point of view that's sometimes heard in South Africa but it plays directly into the hands of the far right in France. It's not a matter of saying that French players can't be proud of their African roots.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

Is it offensive to you that somebody may still be attached to their roots?

I don't think that's what anyone finds offensive. Posing with Erdogan doesn't just show he's still attached to his roots, it is also seen as a public endorsement of Erdogan and his policy. He's basically a dictator who imprisons anyone who stands up to him. Ozil says there's nothing political about his photo but people find that very hard to believe after all that's happened. The timing and the way he's gone about this has been very naive at best. If he'd said something like "I'm German but I still love Turkey and I'm proud of my roots" in an interview it wouldn't have been a problem.

 

[GhastlyHun]

There is plenty of debate about the racist treatment of Özil, Bierhoff and Grindel are widely criticised for the way they are handling the situation. It's not black and white. You can criticise Özil, the DFB and the racists all at the same time.

Yes, this. You even have to, as a rational person. What Özil's message leaves to be desired, is understanding on his part of why people took offense from the picture (and the jersey signed 'for my president', which was a step too far for me too). On the other hand I understand his being defensive because he has been targeted with all sorts of unjustified abuse by far right and racist dickheads, who were only happy to jump on him as the main scapegoat during and after the tournament. Lastly, DFB officials showed nothing but incompetence and inaction during this whole affair, when it should have been their priority to defuse the situation ahead of the tournament to keep all this noise away from the team.