If we trawl back into the clubs history and went back to the 70's and asked "Busby or Best - who goes?" what would be the response back then versus today I wonder?
Mourinho or Pogba?
- Thread starter VP89
- Start date
Tactically I don't see how Jose has adversely affected Pogba. As a midfielder Pogba has to control the game amongst other attributes and one of our biggest problems is that we have surrendered control all too often, and it's not tactic related.
We play a 433, we often pressed and yet we see Pogba with frequent lazy performances scattered around the few great ones. That's not a tactics thing.
Matic is generally good, Lingard was very good, Lukaku was good.
Talent always wins, if Pogba commits it's goodbye Jose.
Sir Matt is the second greatest thing to ever happen to this club.
Mourinho has won a Europa league.
A manager has to earn the right to be undisputed at a club, it should not just be handed to them by default, because they are just as fallible as players, until their prove otherwise.
When Mourinho has done for the club what Sir Matt did, then you can ask a question like this.
I suspect Pogba has a serious discipline problem. Players with good attitudes do well under Jose. Look at Zlatan, one of the biggest names ever to play. Serial winner and expected nothing but the same from all around him. He loved Jose.
Seems a pointless comparison anyway but modern fans wouldn't tolerate what Best was up to in his spare time.
I didn't vote for either as they can both sod off for me.
Eh but doesn't the same apply to Pogba...someone who left once and now wants to leave again....he couldn't even kick a ball vs Sevilla in a must win game 5 yards with no one near him!! Jesus he's easily replaced in a United Shirt for the same amount we paid him for with some of the garbage he churned out. A few good performances for France and some are acting like he's a worldie. Jose has done far better than Pogba for me not even close.
He has never done anything to suggest that's the case, unless you believe the media who think that because he likes to dye his hair yellow that he doesn't care as much about football as his social presence or some shite.
Mourinho is actually the 4th greatest thing (manager) to happen to United. I checked. Considering trophy quality and numbers, he is 4th.
Shocking!!!!
I'm not sure what to think.
Replace discipline for attitude and you might have something.
I genuinely feel like he only performs when his back is against the wall or he feels affiliated with the cause. Otherwise he turns up to the pitch like the game is won and often gets outmanovuered. I remember when Jonjo Shelvey ran circles around him last season against Newcastle ffs.
I don't see Pogba as a player who needs to control midfield, he is not that type of player and never will be so this is probably where we differ in thought. I think by control, you are thinking of a modric, de bryne, scholes type player. I see pogba as more of a playmaker with some box to box characteristics. I cannot see him as a pure box to box as his defending is poor, but he does have the ability to bring the ball forward. He definitely does not have the ability to control midfield or dictate the tempo of our play - he does not have that discipline. I see him darting into the box bullying defenders with his presence.
So he can't control the game, can't defend and he can't be a box to box. He's only good at bringing the ball forward and use his presence to "bully" defenders.
Sounds like a fecking waste of a midfielder the way you described it. Can't do half the vital jobs midfielders are expected to do. Then you blame Mourinhos tactics on it? Doesn't make sense.
Pogba prefers to play in midfield and by your own views, he can't do half the key skills needed to perform there. No manager will make him look good consistently. Unless he starts giving more to the team, which he only does for France and even that was over 1.month.
He wanted to leave when SAF was in charge, he wants to leave with Jose in charge, he wanted to leave Juve with who in charge? I think he's a bit of a douche yeah! Given he's only stood out amongst his peers during one of those 3 periods of his life......I think he's overratted.
No he’s called a worldie because everyone and their dog has seen just how good he can be at Juventus, and with France.
That he has not been as good here under Mourinho is not any kind of defense of our manager, particularly when the only players to have looked better than they did elsewhere/before are Lingard, Young and Felliani.
There is no other midfielder in the world with the same combination of dominant physical attributes paired with top notch technical ability in basically every facet of the game like Pogba, so no he is not easily replaced in a United Jersey.
Though I don’t know every facet of the clubs history, that isn’t too surprising. Hasn’t it always been somewhat summed up by
Busby - some time in the wilderness - Fergie
I’m too young to have known any of the pre fergie managers, so I can’t say for certain.
Out of curiosity, who was the third?
Mourinho because I can’t stand pogba, but I would say both out
If he can't replicate his France performances for us consistently its on him. Play crap, play well, play crap, play well.....no one is saying that to him. Your making excuses for a player he'd love you. Take 250k a week in wages pal and when you play average its on the manager......how about grow some balls Pogs and play to your level every week.
He wasnt world class every season he was at Juventus and if you visit the Juventus forums or speak to some Serie A fans you'll find out was very good on his day but had his consistency issues.
The French fans themselves booed Pogba into the world Cup and when the campaign started he certainly needed to grow into it and credit goes where its due, he delivered in the knockouts very well. But this isn't France and there's no loyalty he owes to anyone. His problem is that he has shown glimmers in bursts of form throughout his career rather than back to back seasons of greatness.
I find it bizzare that the staunchest of Pogba fans keep using the World Cup card to show how great he is when he's been bang average for 2 seasons in England.
You can make anything sound dodgy by ignoring tangibles and stating the basics.
He wanted to leave while SAF was in charge because Italy's biggest club were offering him a first team spot when we weren't playing him at all.
He wanted to leave Juve to return here because we offered a world record fee for him and he wanted to come back here. It was nothing to do with any issues at Juve at all.
He wants to leave while Jose is in charge because... we don't really know, but you assume it's because he's one of the long list of players over his career that doesn't get along with our esteemed manager. That doesn't mean he has discipline or attitude issues. Now sure, you could say he's in the wrong for this, and maybe he is, because he came back here knowing Jose would be his manager, so I won't say he's blameless, but to say that because he's seemingly not getting along with Jose means he somehow has attitude and discipline problems is beyond a stretch and borderline stupid.
Beckham or Fergie
Stam or Fergie
Keane or Fergie
Player or Manager
Stam or Fergie
Keane or Fergie
Player or Manager
I would surely have thought that's the case with just about any player?
Van Gaal was a manager who stabilised the club and at some stage was world class. He was rightly sacked!
I think I see a common denominator. See if you can spot it.
Fair enough, I didn’t know about the booing. He was very young at Juventus, you would have expected his form to be inconsistent then.
At the end of the day, I believe that going forward Pogba has more to offer us than Mourinho, even though Pogba does have his own issues, though this is more marred in the fact that I believe Mourinho has taken us as far as he can, and I’m absolutely bored to death of watching the team now.
We can agree to disagree on which one we think will add more to the club going forward
No. Look at Sanchez, Zlatan, Young, Lingard, Herrera all as examples where you park technical ability aside and just look at attitude and work rate on the pitch. Bar Zlatan for age reasons, none of these examples just walk around on the pitch and allow themselves to get bullied. They aren't on flat feet just looking like the game is won before a ball is kicked. These examples will be on their toes and force the issue even if it's out of their technical reach.
There have been countless games of Pogba however just drifting. So many games literally drift Pogba by I've lost count. I actually wouldn't be bothered if we didn't sign him for as big a fee but when you are apparently world class and hyped up, you better perform by example. He just doesn't. Unless he gets criticised left right and centre he does to prove a point. Then he stops again.
It's that coupled with the fact he is happily touted to other clubs including City that makes me question his attitude. Did he even come out and say the City link was a lie or that he's never going there etc? I don't recall it.
Both have shown themselves to be difficult.
Mourinho burns out at whichever club he's with, while Pogba hasn't gotten on with Sir Alex, Mourinho and Deschamps.
A player should never be bigger than the club, whether Mourinho should stay should be independent of that.
Mourinho burns out at whichever club he's with, while Pogba hasn't gotten on with Sir Alex, Mourinho and Deschamps.
A player should never be bigger than the club, whether Mourinho should stay should be independent of that.
Lukaku seems to like Jose....Matic left chelsea for him.....guessing Lingard likes him and Young, Valencia and many others...De Gea the worlds best keeper I don't see clambering to leave.....so Martial and Pogs who both can't claim to have convinced here are getting his wrath....hmmm how odd. Instead of proving him wrong with undroppable performances I've seen a mixed bag myself....Jose was mad to drop Shaw for Young again last year, now its clear he was right.....he's right with Martial and Pogs' attitude. Same attitude I'm guessing which SAF seen....not the best in his age group but thinks he is despite performances being off!
Pogba needs to man the feck up and stop expecting to be pampered. He's one of the highest paid in our squad but he's not playing like it and wants out when Jose calls him out on it. Giving in to players was what fecked this club up the moment Sir Alex retired, continuing it isn't the answer.Fair enough, I didn’t know about the booing. He was very young at Juventus, you would have expected his form to be inconsistent then.
At the end of the day, I believe that going forward Pogba has more to offer us than Mourinho, even though Pogba does have his own issues, though this is more marred in the fact that I believe Mourinho has taken us as far as he can, and I’m absolutely bored to death of watching the team now.
We can agree to disagree on which one we think will add more to the club going forward
Swop Sir Alex for Jose in this scenario and everybody would be supporting Sir Alex and shitting on Pogba instead.
Exactly right!
That's fine and you obviously rate him as a player. I would too if he was more consistent. I just wonder whether a player who left Juve after 4 years to come "home" apparently, wants to leave straight away after 2 seasons... And be touted to our bitter rivals the January before, could actually be of any use to us long term.Fair enough, I didn’t know about the booing. He was very young at Juventus, you would have expected his form to be inconsistent then.
At the end of the day, I believe that going forward Pogba has more to offer us than Mourinho, even though Pogba does have his own issues, though this is more marred in the fact that I believe Mourinho has taken us as far as he can, and I’m absolutely bored to death of watching the team now.
We can agree to disagree on which one we think will add more to the club going forward
All you're proving is that some players like him and some potentially don't. Well, no shit. I'm not getting into some sort of naming war with you on this, we all know Mourinho's history with plenty of player's he's fallen out with.
Every manager has had players they don't get along with and vice versa. These are still humans at the end of the day. People don't always get along, personalities clash. if people at my workplace doubted my attitude and commitment purely because me and my boss didn't get along I'd be pretty damn offended.
How exactly was giving in to players what messed the club up? The last time I checked that was down to Moyes being horrible, then Vangle coming in and being just a bit better. At what point have we given in to players and when has it been to the detriment of the club?
Like I said in a previous post regarding Busby, Sir Alex earned the right to be untouchable at the club. If it came down to him or a player, then rightly so everyone would side with Fergie. Mourinho has not earned that right in any way or form, and I do not believe a manager should be untouchable by default. There is much to be said that Mourinho’s management is not getting the best out of a lot of our players, it’s not as easy as just saying Pogba needs to man up.
Oddly enough,Zlatan himself has also publicly praised Pogba and his attitude any chance he gets
Didier Deschamps has praised his discipline as well but the man who has fallen out with numerous world class players in his past is seemingly all the proof some need to come to the conclusion that a player has an attitude and discipline problem...sounds backwards to me
It doesn't hold up to scrutiny and is yet another cop out to insulate the manager but I'm not surprised though. His backers are often sycophantic with their support,he's got that effect on certain people. He turned a segment of Chelsea fans against Hazard a few years ago so I fully expect Pogba to get the tar and feather treatment as well
Ernest Mangnall 1903 - 1912
Where did he not get along with deschamps?
So, you don't care about what Pogba did while he played for other clubs but you care about Mourinho's record with other clubs?
Daft question. It's not an either/or situation. Raiola would stand to pocket £10m+ if Pogba was to make another big money move. He's not going to stop trying to engineer moves for his players, regardless of who's managing them.
Sorry I'm not with you tbh. You original statement is that Pogba needs to feel affiliated to the cause to perform. But so does any player, right? Obviously if someone doesn't feel as involved in their job or in the case or whatever then they're not going to perform to their best ability, that's true for all facets of like.
I'm not really sure where hard work on the pitch (and ignoring technical ability?) comes into that, especially when numerous players you've mentioned there (Sanchez, Ibra) have a history of not giving their all and throwing strops when they haven't felt fully affiliated or didn't get along with their manager.
Ahh cheers. We would kill for his trophy haul of two league titles right now
