P&G Draft - R1: Team Beam vs Enigma Bonito

[Enigma_87]

This is also Davids:


Not that I need to sell him as explosive and dynamic player but he was one. When you cross the halfway line both him and Neeskens wouldn't allow you much time on the ball. You can hardly find better midfielders in the defensive phase who after winning the ball can switch the tempo and carry it forward or pass it to the wings.

On top of that you have both running like mad men throughout the full 90 minutes without breaking a sweat.

Imagine losing the ball to either of them and not pressing them back. That would open up a lot of space both through the middle and also on the flanks with the attacking wing backs.

What's the plan when either of them waltzes past Redondo at speed and you have to have one of the CB's stepping up to challenge him? Wouldn't that leave Robben or Ronaldo unmarked waiting for the ball to come to him? Or Sergi and Armfield would teleport themselves from 20-30 yards out?

You don't need a GOAT #10 to carry the ball out at speed when we win it back - both Neeskens and Davids are pretty capable of doing that and there's only Redondo to stop him.

Little more on him:

Where did your nickname 'The Pitbull' come from? Is it true you're also nicknamed 'The Piranha'? Where did that come from and which do you prefer?

Van Gaal gave me the name Pitbull at Ajax. He said that on the defensive side, I was always on the forward – at his ankles. The name Piranha came from one of the former Ajax team managers. It’s a metaphor – a fish that bites ankles and does damage. In South America they call me Tubarao – The Shark. Do I have a favourite? Pitbull.

Edgar Davids was an all-action defensive midfielder who spoke his mind, didn't take any shit, and became an icon in wraparound goggles.

**** Grade: The Pitbull
Iconic footballers have to stand out as truly unique, psychologically and physically, amidst a plethora of quality. Thus, the name Edgar Steven Davids screams 'cool' more than any other. There are myriad Snapchat showboaters nowadays, pimped-up with sleeve tattoos and mohawks, who opt for superficiality over breaking a sweat (looking at you, "Super" Mario).

In the golden age of Serie A, though, your substance had to equal your – and Davids had plenty of both. Defensive midfielders are normally plodding, Claude Makelele-type water-carriers, ably recycling possession and screening the back line without much attacking contribution. But after growing up on the streets of Amsterdam, and being educated at Ajax's esteemed Youth Academy, Davids mastered technique and close control as well as tactical awareness, resulting in a dynamic all-round battler heralded by manager Marcello Lippi as Juventus' "one-man engine room". The Dutchman was the rare hybrid of a holder, a ball-winner, and a box-to-box player, combining the best of all three.

Physically small but blessed with the boundless energy to launch countless counterattacks, the sight of Davids combatively intercepting the ball, zipping forwards with quick footwork and threading a through-pass to Alessandro Del Piero or Zinedine Zidane was extremely common around the turn of the millennium. With Zidane in particular, the silk-and-steel juxtaposition of these two perfectly matched midfield icons was as effective as it was attractive. 'Zizou' was a graceful fantasista of divine technique and gliding gait; Davids provided balance as his antithesis, a snarling, aggressive destroyer who found the same visceral satisfaction in breaking up the play as the Frenchman did in creating it.

Davids was never a thuggish player, but a darker side to his competitiveness often revealed itself, especially on international duty. Irascible and outspoken, traits seemingly ingrained in Dutch players, Davids was sent home from Euro '96 after an interview in which he accused Holland manager Guus Hiddink of having his head "up some players' arses". Davids disgraced himself again in 2001, when he tested positive for banned steroid nandrolone. He was suspended by FIFA from qualification for the 2002 World Cup, his absence a major reason for Holland failing to reach the tournament. Davids' tendency to self-sabotage was also frequently expressed on the pitch. His belligerent playing style brought injuries and suspensions that prevented him from reaching the level of success which his singular talent and determination would otherwise have brought him.

Point of Entry: High Maintenance
Quite rightly dubbed 'The Pitbull' by his then manager Louis van Gaal, Davids was a key member of the famous Ajax side which won the 1995 Champions League against holders AC Milan, and lost the following season's final to another of Davids' future opponents, Juventus. Davids and Clarence Seedorf, another enterprising Dutch midfielder of Afro-Surinamese origin, then sought transfers, beginning a strongly interlinked future.

Davids lasted only a miserable half-season at Milan, before moving on to revive his career at the Stadio Delle Alpi. Exceptional individual displays here saw him first establish himself as midfield general for both Juventus and Holland, and then score a crucial last-minute winner for the Dutch national side having bossed the game against Yugoslavia at France '98. Now dreaded both literally and metaphorically, and recognised universally as an opponent to be reckoned with, it was at this point in his life that Davids first donned the distinctive eyewear that will forever frame our vision of him.

After an eye injury sustained to his optic nerve developed into chronic open-angle glaucoma, Davids underwent career-threatening surgery to prevent sight loss. Much like U2 frontman Bono – a fellow glaucoma sufferer – Davids could not have continued playing unless he came up with a way to shield his eyes from both physical contact and the powerful glare of stadium floodlights. And his choice of wraparound protective goggles – tinted in a fetching shade of Oranje to match his national strip, of course – had previously only been sported by snowboarders and NBA stars. Instantly, those goggles made him the most recognisable footballer on the planet.

The ocular precaution inadvertently changed into a fashion statement, the official Edgar Davids trademark. Players often have a visual signature: Socrates had his headband, Cantona his upturned collar, Henry rocked above-the-knee socks, Pirlo grew that sage-like beard. Not many look like they could DJ at a warehouse rave after the match, though. Whether seen televised, on Channel 5's Football Italia highlights, or virtually, on FIFA 2003 – Davids appeared as cover star next to Roberto Carlos and Ryan Giggs – the surname printed on Juve's 26 shirt was unnecessary. Everyone idolised that unmistakable figure in black-and-white stripes and colourful shades. The left-footed canine who executed driving runs and bone-crunching tackles, dreads oscillating side-to-side as he hounded Lazio or Parma off his private lawn with rabid tenacity and a terrier-like mien.

Edgar Davids: a futurist sportsman with a modernist approach. A bespectacled street fighter, the Boba Fett of the beautiful game, basically just a leather trenchcoat and a Beretta away from being cast as one of Morpheus' cyberpunk guerrillas from The Matrix. Nike knew this telegenic sci-fi look was perfect for endorsement and featured Davids in their ingenious 2002 'Scorpion KO' advert. He played 3-on-3, red Mercurial Vapours flashing, man-marking other playground names like Luis Figo and Patrick Vieira; advertising a brand, but above all, promoting himself.

The six years spent in Turin would prove to be the greatest of Davids' career, powering the Old Lady to three league titles. This was followed by a loan move to friend Frank Rijkaard's Barcelona in 2004, which partially incited their comeback as La Liga's powerhouse, a season back at the San Siro with Internazionale, and then an experience of English football as a Tottenham fan favourite. It's fascinating to note how closely Zlatan Ibrahimovic, for one, has followed in Davids' trailblazing footsteps (Ajax, Italy's 'Big Three', Barça and finally the Premier League). And with his nomadic wanderings, spiky persona and unique appearance, the lense-clad trendsetter has single-handedly established a template for every volatile maverick who has swaggered out of the tunnel in his wake. Think Ronaldinho's flowing locks, think Berbatov's insouciant moodiness, for example. There are dozens more.

The Moment: 28 May 2003, Old Trafford, The First All-Italian Champions League Final
An hour into this tense stalemate between Juve and AC Milan, before suffering an injury, Davids' outstanding performance was lauded by the BBC coverage as 'inspirational... hungrier and far more influential' than that of his compatriot Seedorf. But Juventus' talisman reluctantly limped off, watching the remainder from the bench as two watertight defences maintained the deadlock, meaning his penalty shootout jinx was about to continue.

Davids had missed his effort in the 1996 final, and was prevented from partaking during losses at France '98 and Euro 2000. What must he have thought here, then, when (according to Lippi) some of his high-profile team-mates pathetically "refused to take penalties"? His inadequate replacement, Marcelo Zalayeta, inevitably missed, allowing Andriy Shevchenko to clinch the half-hearted affair for the Rossoneri. In truth, Davids' substitution probably didn't alter the result. He may well have been denied from twelve yards (as Seedorf was) or scored in vain, but his mentality would never allow apprehension to outweigh responsibility. He would have been the first to step up to the spot.

https://sports-images.vice.com/images/2016/12/20/the-****-edgar-davids-body-image-1482232895.jpg
Davids and Andrea Pirlo battle it out in the midst of the final // PA Images

The illustrious Seedorf became the first player to lift a European crown with three different clubs. Davids, for all his personal accolades, never added to Ajax's Class of '95 triumph. Still, there's a key difference between these two all-time midfield greats: Seedorf was professional, Davids was iconic. Only one of those is an exciting, endearing thing to be.

He may have faded away into lower-league football, but Davids is fondly remembered – through rose-tinted glasses, appropriately enough – as the very definition of a **** player, one who would look equally at home in a music video for The Prodigy as in a Champions League final. There's more to Edgar Davids than a pair of techno goggles, a dreadlocked ponytail and a nickname that epitomises his dogged, never-say-die conviction. But those accessories represent his uniquely memorable identity. The abstract image of The Pitbull transcended calcio to create a legendary cultural aesthetic surpassing that of any of his contemporaries: it's where the individual became an icon.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

But if you aren't pressing back it's easier for our players to switch the tempo and counter with ease. The only ball winner in the middle for you is Redondo. Neither Laudrup, nor Giresse are ball winners and neither of them will track back that fast to cover the holes. Both also lack the physicality to stop Neeskens and Davids surging through the middle.

Obviously it depends on the situation, its not they are forbidden to press and that they will turn like robots the second we lose the ball and just sprint back like headless chickens. Most times you have enough time to get back in shape, if there is an opportunity to press because we have a lot of bodies up then they would press.

Sergi and Armfield both will be much farther the pitch than Robben or Ronaldo to catch them. Robben is the fastest player on the pitch whilst Ronaldo isn't that far off either.

We have faster wingers who will be in space and in a better position than both your full backs when we win the ball. Giresse and Laudrup won't help in transition leaving Redondo overwhelmed in the middle.

So what you are saying is that you allow us to pretty much play 1v1 on your part of the pitch when we have the ball? If you leave your front 3 up they will be around our back 3 which means we have a 1v1 battle in your half, with so much quality on our hand, with so much dribbling ability we have in pour team, only thing i can say is good luck. We fency our chances 1v1 for most of the game at your half against 2, 3 counters you will be able to land in 90 minutes.

Neither of your CB's will also step in midfield either to help out and if you go with deeper defensive line that would open even bigger gap between the midfield and defence when you are on the backfoot.

Your attack is very central minded, both Ronaldo and Robben will search for that inside channel, Panucci offers zero going forwards and Gordillo is okay-ish but not a major threat you need from that side. All of that plays into our hand and allows us to play very narrow and robust when we defend. For all the lack of width you guys were bombarding us, i wouldnt be surprised if you struggled with it at the end.

In fact I'm not sure what is worse. Not playing a high line with your full backs as main width providers or playing high line against Robben and Ronaldo.

I keep saying our fullbacks are not the only and main width providers but you keep ignoring it, we have 5 players, 5! that will interchange and that are able to strech your defensive setup.

Neither of you really answered what's the plan of getting the ball back when you lose it, apart from having good dribblers? Giresse and Laudrup not pressing back makes the issue even worse, which makes me thing both Neeskens and Davids would carry the ball unchallenged through the middle

We defend zonally so we dont really need ball winners as such in midfield even though Redondo is more then capable in that department. Giresse and Laudrup/Butragueno will mark the zones in front of Redondo so your boys dont have an open pass. If you think Neeskens and Davids are capable going through them as they are not there, id be a very happy man if that was your plan.

The tiki taka (not saying you are playing one) relied on players like Xavi and Iniesta through the middle to press the opponent when they lost the ball and get it back right away. You don't have such players and neither is the plan.

Love Redondo to bits, but he also lacked pace and he is having no one besides him with the work rate and stamina to chase our players.

Its your boys that are going to do the chasing. I have zero doubt that someone like Giresse would be more then capable of doing what we need from him. Slight concerns around Laudrup though but thats why we combined him with young Butragueno who was a good press player and was a willing runner.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

good night enigma, beam will took over in the morning
fun game so far.

 

[Enigma_87]

Obviously it depends on the situation, its not they are forbidden to press and that they will turn like robots the second we lose the ball and just sprint back like headless chickens. Most times you have enough time to get back in shape, if there is an opportunity to press because we have a lot of bodies up then they would press.

You keep having it both ways mate. Once you say you won't press when you lose the ball then you say depends on the situation. It's really simple instructions whether you would do it or not. In fact so far there isn't even remotely coherent game plan in the defensive phase either you or Jim Beam have put forward. Most time you might have enough time to get back in shape but here you are facing GOAT midfielders in Davids and Neeskens - both won't give you that time, they can carry the ball at very high speed as soon as they win it. Both are one-man engine room like Lippi put it for Davids. They can cover ground for two players in most cases.

So what you are saying is that you allow us to pretty much play 1v1 on your part of the pitch when we have the ball? If you leave your front 3 up they will be around our back 3 which means we have a 1v1 battle in your half, with so much quality on our hand, with so much dribbling ability we have in pour team, only thing i can say is good luck. We fency our chances 1v1 for most of the game at your half against 2, 3 counters you will be able to land in 90 minutes.

I'm saying that Robben is the fastest player on the pitch and Sergi won't catch him if he's up the pitch providing width.In a central attack like use and in our own half you would hardly have that much space you are describing it. In fact the 1v1 would mostly be us on the counter with only one ball winner in midfield - Redondo.

Your attack is very central minded, both Ronaldo and Robben will search for that inside channel, Panucci offers zero going forwards and Gordillo is okay-ish but not a major threat you need from that side. All of that plays into our hand and allows us to play very narrow and robust when we defend. For all the lack of width you guys were bombarding us, i wouldnt be surprised if you struggled with it at the end.

Seriously? Gordillo was a wing back and full back, scored 52 goals in the league and many assists, he was excellent going forward. Robben as Balu would put it is as much of a creator as it is a goalscorer:

I swear, he created more goals for us by going down the line and passing the ball back with his right foot in the past 2 seasons than he scored by cutting in and shooting. Robben has been an outstanding right winger.

You can't play narrow when you defend on the backfoot that's nonsense. You are playing possession football and you have 4 players in Butrageno, Laudrup, Giresse and Romario who won't track back as you describe it or return to shape that fast as during their careers they didn't do it and had other players do the dirty work for them.

I keep saying our fullbacks are not the only and main width providers but you keep ignoring it, we have 5 players, 5! that will interchange and that are able to strech your defensive setup.

Romario isn't Ronaldo(Fenomeno) in terms of going into pockets. He's more centrally oriented playing on the shoulder of the defender. You need both Giresse and Laudrup in the middle otherwise you'll find Redondo isolated (yet once again).

We defend zonally so we dont really need ball winners as such in midfield even though Redondo is more then capable in that department. Giresse and Laudrup/Butragueno will mark the zones in front of Redondo so your boys dont have an open pass. If you think Neeskens and Davids are capable going through them as they are not there, id be a very happy man if that was your plan.

When your midfielders lose the ball you can't mark the zone they are in. When you are looking for openings and pockets you run into space. When you misplace a pass you need a ball winner to get it back for your team.

Its your boys that are going to do the chasing. I have zero doubt that someone like Giresse would be more then capable of doing what we need from him. Slight concerns around Laudrup though but thats why we combined him with young Butragueno who was a good press player and was a willing runner.

I'd imagine you would not play young but peak Butrageno. If you are playing young one I doubt he'll be as good as the more experienced one in attack, so which is it or again trying to have both

 

[Enigma_87]

good night enigma, beam will took over in the morning
fun game so far.

aye will do the same probably, good luck mate

 

[Joga Bonito]

Ultimately we see a side with some great players who are capable of playing easy-on-the-eye exciting and incisive football with the likes of Laudrup, Giresse and Redondo being some truly sumptuous players with Romario being a GOAT at the end of it to finish it.

Now the key to us winning this match, is

1) Gain control of the midfield and suffocate supply lines to Romario-Butragueno duo
2) Quick counter and fast tempo attacks to exploit lack of defensive bodies in midfield
3) Turning the screws on their defense and the lack of pace and pace on the turn of side centre backs, with wing-backs pushing up
4) Putting tabs on Romario who's the key to converting the chances that Sjor's creative cast

1) Gaining control of midfield
It doesn't get any better than Neeskens and Davids who have rightful claims to being the best in their roles and el capitan Goncalves who was a colossus for Penarol. Jim Beam's creative cast aren't going to find it easy to get into a rhythm or impose themselves on the match against such a steely and tactically resolute midfield who won't give them an inch of breathing space. Whilst they will naturally have the edge in possession, and we will let them which is the plan, it's not necessarily going to translate into meaningful possession or chances, with the resistance they are facing here. Or at least not to the extent they are hoping to.

2) Exploiting edge in midfield
This has been done to death and we believe we have two powerful runners and esp in Neeskens one of the greatest and most technically gifted box to box dynamos to exploit the lack of defensive bodies in Jim Beam's midfield, with his goalscoring prowess, dribbling and creativity being key here.

3) Whilst Ruggeri and Stam were fine defenders, they were primarily noted for their ball winning prowess and physicality, and not necessarily for their nimbleness or turn of pace which can prove to be fatal in a back 5 system with 2 wing-backs. And not mentioning the greatest wing-forward ever in Ronaldo and one of the greatest ever in Robben.

Ruggeri and Stam guarding the channels will be a regular feature of this match and occasionally even the flank when their wing-back is high up the field (one of the side CBs will have to slot into the FB position in a back 4, even if only one of the WBs is pushing up) and them squaring up against the pace and trickery of our wing-duo is only going to end up one way. Not to mention Careca who was a wily operator and was right at home at finding pockets of space in channels and linking up play, which should make it a nightmare for his back line to deal with.

4) Romario is absolutely critical to them converting the possession they enjoy into goals, and ultimately we have one of the greatest South American CBs and the greatest modern CB in the post Rio-Nesta era to in Diego Godin keep tabs on the Brazilian's threat. Not forgetting Ricardo Carvalho being an excellent defender who is agile and nimble on his feet, and also a nice stylistic fit to Romario's low centre of gravity and trickiness. This is in stark contrast to Stam and Ruggeri's style of play and our wing duo's strengths for instance. Either way battling Romario in the box is a suicidal task, so we are naturally focusing on putting the screws in midfield and suffocating the supply line to him, which we are well placed in doing so, with Godin and Carvalho tasked with moping up the back when anything does get through.


Would love the thoughts of neutrals to keep the discussions from going stale though .

 

[Joga Bonito]

I'll be heading off for now, with Enigma taking over in a while. Hopefully there's more discussion by then, anyway taking my leave with another Careca performance for those interested.


Scores a typical Careca goal against a sturdy Inter Milan side boasting the likes of Giuseppe Bergomi, Lothar Matthaus, Ferri and the likes, but his ability to play those one-twos, drop deep and faciliate play and exploit the channels are apparent as always (be sure to check out his performance against France in the 1986 WC QFs too) and they will be pivotal in disorientating and unlocking Jim Beam's defense here, with the terror wing duo in tandem

 

[Jim Beam]

Just to make some points about Fernando Redondo, as I'm not sure if the opposition remembers him from post-injury time or they just confuse him not being the fastest man on the pitch, for lack of aggressivity, physicality and efficiency.

This is El Principe at the age of 23 at Tenerife against La Liga champions Barcelona with Laudrup and more Barcelona bodies in midfield keeping his hold on the game. The video isn't of best quality, but enough for you to see what kind of player he was not even on the peak of his powers.


Age 24 in Copa America final against aggressive Mexico side.


You can say a lot of things, but lack of physicality and aggressivity wasn't one of them. And the men absolutely thrived when he was under pressure while being on the ball. Something that will happen here. Yet, apparently, we should have put some terrier and long distance runner instead of him.

Fast-forward to the year 2000 and Redondo being practically a one-man midfield for CL champions Madrid. Most remember that game against us at Old Trafford in 3-5-2 with Savio and Mcmanaman as his partners. Real then went past our midfield, Bayern one and line up in the final against Valencia again like this:

Now, call me crazy, but our team is superior in every position on the pitch and Redondo has absolutely zero help here in the defensive side apart from their back 5, but they still trashed Valencia 3-0. This team we face is also superior from an individual point of view but by opposition logic and reasoning this Madrid team would be "Redondo and bunch of nice players alongside him which can provide some nice eye-pleasing football"

Neither of you really answered what's the plan of getting the ball back when you lose it, apart from having good dribblers? Giresse and Laudrup not pressing back makes the issue even worse, which makes me thing both Neeskens and Davids would carry the ball unchallenged through the middle

Your own players will give us the ball back in pretty short time. And I'm not even kidding. Let's be honest, for all their individual quality (and seeing how they are instructed) they have one big flaw in the sense they will not play patient build-up game waiting for the best chance and finding openings in the opposition. Most of your team are a direct type of players, especially the biggest goal-threats in Robben and Ronaldo who will as soon as they got the ball run into opposition no matter if they are against one, two or a fully set up defensive shape which will happen in most cases. Rinse and repeat.
Have some doubts about peak Robben and Ronaldo on the pitch together also, as they both want to have the ball at all time and both aren't willing to share it a lot which is exactly opposite from the type of players we have who are all unselfish while trying to find the best option at all times.

You keep having it both ways mate. Once you say you won't press when you lose the ball then you say depends on the situation. It's really simple instructions whether you would do it or not. In fact so far there isn't even remotely coherent game plan in the defensive phase either you or Jim Beam have put forward. Most time you might have enough time to get back in shape but here you are facing GOAT midfielders in Davids and Neeskens - both won't give you that time, they can carry the ball at very high speed as soon as they win it. Both are one-man engine room like Lippi put it for Davids. They can cover ground for two players in most cases.

It's really simple, it's been mentioned in the OP post (under part - tactics) and mentioned numerous times in this debate. The team will get back in a 5-3-2 shape with zonal marking. In some phases of the game and if the ball is lost of course they will try for a quick recovery like most teams do, Butragueno as a player he is will always try to make difficult for the opponent, in this case, Goncalves in the build-up, but the team when losing possession will go back into the defensive shape. Btw. Giresse work-rate and defensive contribution have been criminally underrated here, you're basically writing him off which is plain wrong. He could definitely contribute a lot, especially in this set-up and he is a perfect partner for Laudrup like it's the case with Butragueno and Romario upfront.

Funny you say we don't have a coherent plan when your plan in the defensive phase consists mostly of just marking opposition players, Robben and Ronaldo won't even track back as you said on the first page, but Gordillo and Panucci are going after out wingbacks, Tito will be an anchor and help the defence while the plan to stop our highly creative and mobile (yes, believe it or not, both Laudrup and Giresse were highly mobile) is to just put Davids and Neeskens on them, no matter where they are on the pitch, leaving than Redondo to whom? I hope at least Careca will track back.

I don't mind the narrative that you have a very strong, physical and mobile team with some great individual quality. What I do mind by recent posts is that we don't have a coherent game plan and we are basically here to play "some nice football" for the fans when it's pretty clear what we will do in both phases of the game.

Anyway, off to work, hope I will manage to keep track on the debate and contribute more today. Just wanted to clear some things from last night which are going in circles now. Have a good day and nice debate.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Jim Beam come on mate, now you are switching approaches at will.

First of all Real didn't play the way you described in your opening posts. Secondly they didn't have 2 advanced playmakers in Giresse and Laudrup as you have. McManaman had to work his ass off to make that work. Then Real aren't up against Valencia but two of the best box to box midfielders in history.

I haven't said that Redondo lacks the physicality, but BOTH Giresse and Laudrup do. This what you are fielding is indeed a one man midfield in the defensive phase.

Your own players will give us the ball back in pretty short time. And I'm not even kidding. Let's be honest, for all their individual quality (and seeing how they are instructed) they have one big flaw in the sense they will not play patient build-up game waiting for the best chance and finding openings in the opposition. Most of your team are a direct type of players, especially the biggest goal-threats in Robben and Ronaldo who will as soon as they got the ball run into opposition no matter if they are against one, two or a fully set up defensive shape which will happen in most cases. Rinse and repeat.

So your whole defensive premise is wait for our players to give you the ball back, and voters are buying that? Again you don't really have a plan on how you are going to get the ball back. Wait for two of the best players in history in their respective position in Robben and Ronaldo to give you the ball back is madness.

Again you deflected the shape of your CB's when you are in possession and said you'd provide a graphic that isn't supposed to be a high line, but still deflecting the question as we all know the answer..

It's really simple, it's been mentioned in the OP post (under part - tactics) and mentioned numerous times in this debate. The team will get back in a 5-3-2 shape with zonal marking. In some phases of the game and if the ball is lost of course they will try for a quick recovery like most teams do, Butragueno as a player he is will always try to make difficult for the opponent, in this case, Goncalves in the build-up, but the team when losing possession will go back into the defensive shape. Btw. Giresse work-rate and defensive contribution have been criminally underrated here, you're basically writing him off which is plain wrong. He could definitely contribute a lot, especially in this set-up and he is a perfect partner for Laudrup like it's the case with Butragueno and Romario upfront.

Funny you say we don't have a coherent plan when your plan in the defensive phase consists mostly of just marking opposition players, Robben and Ronaldo won't even track back as you said on the first page, but Gordillo and Panucci are going after out wingbacks, Tito will be an anchor and help the defence while the plan to stop our highly creative and mobile (yes, believe it or not, both Laudrup and Giresse were highly mobile) is to just put Davids and Neeskens on them, no matter where they are on the pitch, leaving than Redondo to whom? I hope at least Careca will track back.

I don't mind the narrative that you have a very strong, physical and mobile team with some great individual quality. What I do mind by recent posts is that we don't have a coherent game plan and we are basically here to play "some nice football" for the fans when it's pretty clear what we will do in both phases of the game.

Anyway, off to work, hope I will manage to keep track on the debate and contribute more today. Just wanted to clear some things from last night which are going in circles now. Have a good day and nice debate.

Giresse's work rate and defensive contribution should be underrated because at his peak he was either a #10 at club level or had BOTH Tigana and Fernandes doung the hard work for him and Platini. Returning zonally into shape is also madness considering how fast Neeskens, Davids, Robben and Ronaldo can bring the ball forward.

And for what is worth Davids and Neeskens are brilliant with the ball under pressure as shown above in Davids compilation. I've already explained how our defensive set up will work. Careca and Robben would both press your defence when we lose the ball and there's a good chance players like Ruggeri and Stam who never possessed that much of ball playing ability to lose it.

 

[Enigma_87]

It will be great if some neutrals to comment on the game as I feel we kinda exhausted most of the points.

I see @Tuppet is on the fence here, any reasons for the switch mate?

 

[Gio]

Whilst it's not a gung-ho set-up which is going to be run over, the fact is that neither Giresse nor Laudrup have the dynamism or the physicality to cope with our midfield which isn't your typical midfield and boasts 3 powerhouses. Perhaps Jim Beam's midfield wouldn't have been an issue against a more conventional set-up but against the trio of Neeskens-Davids and Goncalves who is rated as one of the greatest South American midfielders ever, it definitely does stick out like a sore thumg. And whilst Redondo was a class act, and had excellent positioning and tactical nous, I wouldn't exactly call him a great ball-winner or a dynamic midfielder in the mould of a Desailly, Davids, Rijkaard etc. His forte was his class and composure on the ball, in combination with his positioning and tactical nous. The DM position in Jim Beam's midfield calls for a more dynamic hard-running midfielder or a more physical presence imo, when we look at the light-weight Giresse and Laudrup who are outmatched physically by our midfield.

You wouldn't necessarily want a Desailly or Davids in the heart of Beam/Sjor's midfield though. Replacing Redondo with Davids in that Real midfield trio and the quality and cohesion on the ball drops a level. Same principle at play with the great Barcelona midfield. You wouldn't replace Busquets with Kante or Makelele to provide more physicality or dynamism, when it jeopardises the collective effect of three great ball-players combining. If you are going down the sexy football route, it's much better to go balls deep and go the full hog as Beam/Sjor have done with that trio. That's not to say I don't have a lot of love for your own three, it's a formidable defensive set-up.

 

[Physiocrat]

Really on the fence here. I definitely see Romario scoring with Beam's creativity but there's too much quality and trickery in Enigma's front 3 not to score once with a quick transition which they should have a few of, that said I think more traditonal DLP like Xabi Alonso would help with transition quality although I don't think you could afford someone like that.

I think it depends on how many good counters Enigma has where he can isolate Ruggeri and Stam further wide. If limited Beam wins

 

[MJJ]

Both very good sides and it was hard to pick a winner, ultimately stam and romario decided the game for me.

 

[Enigma_87]

Really on the fence here. I definitely see Romario scoring with Beam's creativity but there's too much quality and trickery in Enigma's front 3 not to score once with a quick transition which they should have a few of, that said I think more traditonal DLP like Xabi Alonso would help with transition quality although I don't think you could afford someone like that.

I think it depends on how many good counters Enigma has where he can isolate Ruggeri and Stam further wide. If limited Beam wins

I think there would be a good number of that due to the lack of ball winners in Team Beam midfield, especially when they lose the ball. Sergi and Armfield aren't exactly a GOAT wing backs, hence they won't stretch our defence enough to open up spaces and we will defend easier on that note.

Neeskens and Davids are really underrated here. Both are tremendous ball carriers who can dispossess Team Beam midfielders and launch quick counter. With that advantage in midfield in the defensive phase and lots of space left behind by Team Beam full backs pushing up I'd say we'd have plenty of counters this game. Especially if we take the lead.

On a side note waiting for Ronaldo and Robben to make a mistake sounds a bit of a suicidal tactic. At his heyday Ronaldo scored 50-60 goals per season and doesn't need too many chances to score some decisive goals.

Careca also is excellent goalscorer who has done it against Seria A's toughest defences.

Carvalho and Godin are well suited to succumb pressure as that's their natural game basically. Think tactically we're well set up to counter their strengths and you couldn't really ask for better counter attacking players than Ronaldo, Robben and Careca.

 

[Jim Beam]

@Jim Beam come on mate, now you are switching approaches at will.

First of all Real didn't play the way you described in your opening posts. Secondly they didn't have 2 advanced playmakers in Giresse and Laudrup as you have. McManaman had to work his ass off to make that work. Then Real aren't up against Valencia but two of the best box to box midfielders in history.

I haven't said that Redondo lacks the physicality, but BOTH Giresse and Laudrup do. This what you are fielding is indeed a one man midfield in the defensive phase.

Now, come on enigma, this is just ridiculous. They couldn't play the exact same way we do because they didn't had such great ability on the ball, but that's not what made me react to this. So, Redondo was surrounded with a pure striker in Raul and McManaman as midfield partner and that worked because McManaman worked his socks off? And it won't work with Laudrup and the likes of Giresse? That's nonsense, don't know why you even went in that rabbit hole. Giresse wasn't just pure 10 as you make him out here, he was more than capable of putting his shift. Hell, if McManaman could do it...

I already said you had better individuals then that Valencia team (with the notion Madrid kicked Bayern and United before), but our team also has much better individuals than that Madrid team which won CL pretty easily. They had Anelka and Morientes up front while you're dealing with Butragueno and Romario here ffs, not even going into other parts of the team.

Btw. Redondo lacking physicality in the defensive phase was an answer to Joga, not to you specifically. Just to clear that part.

So your whole defensive premise is wait for our players to give you the ball back, and voters are buying that? Again you don't really have a plan on how you are going to get the ball back. Wait for two of the best players in history in their respective position in Robben and Ronaldo to give you the ball back is madness.

It's not the defensive premise based on hope and praying God you'll let us give the ball. It's the way the zonal marking in 5-3-2 works and considering that you'll play direct and quick football trying to break our shape when you have the ball. Now, if you aren't going Forrest Gump style with Robben running directly out of the pitch, I assume it will be about our ability to contain you in such shape and get the ball back. You said numerous time both in tactics and this thread that this will be your playing style. Don't know what is so confusing about it honestly.

On the other hand, your defensive shape is about leaving our team with the supreme ball-playing abilities in 1 vs 1 situation on your side of the pitch (if your press which consists of the whole 2 players!! doesn't work) which imo is the definition of madness considering movement and dribbling skills on our side. And on top of that you have Butragueno and Romario to deal upfront.
I know which shape I would prefer if the other side has the ball. Don't see the need to call out voters with those confusing smiles also, but that's up to you.

Again you deflected the shape of your CB's when you are in possession and said you'd provide a graphic that isn't supposed to be a high line, but still deflecting the question as we all know the answer..

That part about the shape of our CB's is answered to the death on the second page and it is already explained there is absolutely no need for the high line in this system or in possession based team for that matter.

 

[Physiocrat]

Going for Beam by the slightest of margins. Enigma just needed a more expansive passer at CB or DM or CM to really move the ball quick enough to exploit the gaps behind Sergi and Armfield on a regular basis. The back 3 with defensive sweeper and DM is rather solid.

 

[Enigma_87]

Now, come on enigma, this is just ridiculous. They couldn't play the exact same way we do because they didn't had such great ability on the ball, but that's not what made me react to this. So, Redondo was surrounded with a pure striker in Raul and McManaman as midfield partner and that worked because McManaman worked his socks off? And it won't work with Laudrup and the likes of Giresse? That's nonsense, don't know why you even went in that rabbit hole. Giresse wasn't just pure 10 as you make him out here, he was more than capable of putting his shift. Hell, if McManaman could do it...

I already said you had better individuals then that Valencia team (with the notion Madrid kicked Bayern and United before), but our team also has much better individuals than that Madrid team which won CL pretty easily. They had Anelka and Morientes up front while you're dealing with Butragueno and Romario here ffs, not even going into other parts of the team.

Btw. Redondo lacking physicality in the defensive phase was an answer to Joga, not to you specifically. Just to clear that part.



It's not the defensive premise based on hope and praying God you'll let us give the ball. It's the way the zonal marking in 5-3-2 works and considering that you'll play direct and quick football trying to break our shape when you have the ball. Now, if you aren't going Forrest Gump style with Robben running directly out of the pitch, I assume it will be about our ability to contain you in such shape and get the ball back. You said numerous time both in tactics and this thread that this will be your playing style. Don't know what is so confusing about it honestly.

On the other hand, your defensive shape is about leaving our team with the supreme ball-playing abilities in 1 vs 1 situation on your side of the pitch (if your press which consists of the whole 2 players!! doesn't work) which imo is the definition of madness considering movement and dribbling skills on our side. And on top of that you have Butragueno and Romario to deal upfront.
I know which shape I would prefer if the other side has the ball. Don't see the need to call out voters with those confusing smiles also, but that's up to you.



That part about the shape of our CB's is answered to the death on the second page and it is already explained there is absolutely no need for the high line in this system or in possession based team for that matter.

First of all Raul was never a pure striker. Don't know where you get that from. Also that Real side played counter attacking football, not possession one, hence there's no sense with the example you give here.

Neither Valencia or Bayern had the midfield duo as we have here in Neeskens and Davids.

Giresse was never the industrious type you are making him out to be. All I see is some claims here which aren't really backed up with actual set up. You have 2 playmakers here in Laudrup and Giresse and one DLP in Redondo and only Redondo able to put a shift in. By all accounts and especially against Neeskens/Davids that midfield is really light.

You said that you'll provide a formation graphic of your CB's and still deflecting that part.

 

[Enigma_87]

Going for Beam by the slightest of margins. Enigma just needed a more expansive passer at CB or DM or CM to really move the ball quick enough to exploit the gaps behind Sergi and Armfield on a regular basis. The back 3 with defensive sweeper and DM is rather solid.

Come on mate. Carvalho is pretty good passer at the back. Tito is great passer from deep, Neeskens is also another excellent playmaker. We don't need everyone to be a Beckenbauer to move the ball up field.

Also you can't really get better DM which you are describing than Tito. Just as @antohan mentioned in his writeup Tito was an excellent passer.

Do you really believe Team Beam midfield is strong enough here to hold his own in the defensive phase?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

You said that you'll provide a formation graphic of your CB's and still deflecting that part.

amazing.
But you know what, you provide a game scenario via formation picture and post it here, i will then reupload with the position of our centerbacks.
As we said xy times, position depends on positions of your players and positions of our players...one graphic just isnt enough and would solve and show nothing. We explained into details the role of Schulz so i dont know why are you still banging about it.

ps: thanks for turning me into @Balu last night, always prefered him to myself tbh so its a great compliment.

 

[Enigma_87]

amazing.
But you know what, you provide a game scenario via formation picture and post it here, i will then reupload with the position of our centerbacks.
As we said xy times, position depends on positions of your players and positions of our players...one graphic just isnt enough and would solve and show nothing. We explained into details the role of Schulz so i dont know why are you still banging about it.

ps: thanks for turning me into @Balu last night, always prefered him to myself tbh so its a great compliment.

Not sure if anyone cares to be honest but anyway, be my guest:

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Enigma_87 and whats that, just your team in a defensive setup for that crap you can just use our original formation picture because thats excatly what you did, used yours and just place them on one half

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 and whats that, just your team in a defensive setup for that crap you can just use our original formation picture because thats excatly what you did, used yours and just place them on one half

That's a set up where we defend in our own half, you cannot position your players? Do I have to also position your players on the pitch I don't get it?

You asked about a graph in regards to our players in defensive phase of the game and I provided just that.

 

[Enigma_87]

Ok, let me do that work for you then as well.

Ball is in Schulz. Is this correct?

If the ball moves forward imagine the whole structure moving to our half 5-10 yards.

Cristiano and Robben back 2-3 yards but near the half line.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

That's a set up where we defend in our own half, you cannot position your players? Do I have to also position your players on the pitch I don't get it?

You asked about a graph in regards to our players in defensive phase of the game and I provided just that.

i said a specific game situation not a squeezed formation picture, i mean what do we achieve after this that people didnt know before? We all knew how you gonna look in a defensive shape and by our formation picture and OP they know how we are gonna attack.

There will be situations where Armfield stays back so Redondo gets more freedom, Giresse will then drift right and the whole shape changes. Same applies for the left side.
Armfield/Sergi will bomb up, Redondo will stay and dictate the game from the back freely while Laudrup and Giresse will exploit pockets between the lines.
Both fb/midfielder found themself out wide so they either have 2v1 or your midfield loses shape so a quick pass/dribbling-pass will find someone that will have a 1v1 in more space.

I mean there are millions iof scenarios here, its fecking football so i dont know how to you expect to get anything out of one picture but if you really want to play that game we can.


Depends of Careca position in picture above, if he is close to Schulz he drops back a bit and opens space for Redondo, if he is free then he stays here and they circle around until Redondo gets free that wont be a problem, in fact its a basic football movement.
Both Sergi and Armfield are way deeper when Schulz has the ball, they move up when ball goes past your attacking trio and then you get to the point where xy of different scenarios start and i went through some in this post.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Šjor Bepo i know you’ll keep deflecting and won’t post a formation graphic anyway as it won’t suit your argument you are doing a pretty good job at deflecting it over and over again and seems that voters don’t care so I might as well drop it anyway.

 

[Physiocrat]

Come on mate. Carvalho is pretty good passer at the back. Tito is great passer from deep, Neeskens is also another excellent playmaker. We don't need everyone to be a Beckenbauer to move the ball up field.

Also you can't really get better DM which you are describing than Tito. Just as @antohan mentioned in his writeup Tito was an excellent passer.

Do you really believe Team Beam midfield is strong enough here to hold his own in the defensive phase?

I watched a Neeskens, Carvalho and rewatched Joga's Tito video. Carvalho is tidy, Neeskens was decent and Tito was better than I remember, he had some pretty good passes outwide.

Beam's back three plus Redondo is excellent. That said his wingbacks are the weakest players on the pitch. That said with that back three as long as they fall back into position quick enough I think they'll be difficult to break down. Now I don't think they'll be able to drop back quick enough all the time, both sides will score, I just think Beam will score one more. As I said, this is far from a one sided game and it is really tight and was very close not to vote at all.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Beam's back three plus Redondo is excellent. That said his wingbacks are the weakest players on the pitch.

Armfield is better then Panucci, at least in my opinion as i never really rated Panucci that highly.

 

[Physiocrat]

Armfield is better then Panucci, at least in my opinion as i never really rated Panucci that highly.

Sorry, re-phrase. I meant your wingbacks were the weakest players on your team.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Šjor Bepo i know you’ll keep deflecting and won’t post a formation graphic anyway as it won’t suit your argument you are doing a pretty good job at deflecting it over and over again and seems that voters don’t care so I might as well drop it anyway.

amazing, its not that we told you 10 times how our cb are going to play and where they will stand, i even adress it based on your formation picture and you still arent happy....but okay, we are deflecting.

 

[Enigma_87]

amazing, its not that we told you 10 times how our cb are going to play and where they will stand, i even adress it based on your formation picture and you still arent happy....but okay, we are deflecting.

You told me 10 times along with Jim Beam that you will post a formation graphic as otherwise it's pretty confusing. So far no graph is posted mate.

To me that's deflecting however you put it.

Every tactical analysis includes formation graphic with the players in their zones. You know you have to play a higher line with your CB's when we shape in defence, but in terms of voting purposes won't even post your shape in possession, can't really understand that.

In the graph above we have a static situation, it's a simple ask really to show your players where would be on the pitch.

If we can't do that it makes the whole matchday discussion pretty futile and pointless.

 

[Enigma_87]

I watched a Neeskens, Carvalho and rewatched Joga's Tito video. Carvalho is tidy, Neeskens was decent and Tito was better than I remember, he had some pretty good passes outwide.

Beam's back three plus Redondo is excellent. That said his wingbacks are the weakest players on the pitch. That said with that back three as long as they fall back into position quick enough I think they'll be difficult to break down. Now I don't think they'll be able to drop back quick enough all the time, both sides will score, I just think Beam will score one more. As I said, this is far from a one sided game and it is really tight and was very close not to vote at all.

But still you haven't addressed having 3 playmakers in the middle of the park against Neeskens and Davids. As you said Tito is excellent distributing the ball to wide channels. Why do we need to have that many playmakers in the team? Both Davids and Neeskens are great at passing the ball quickly into channels.

Maybe it's just me then as I don't really see how Team Beam midfield stacks up against Davids/Neeskens, neither that setup will neutralize Robben and Cristiano.

To each to his own I guess.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Šjor Bepo

Here's a tactical analysis for example:

https://www.coachesvoice.com/game-real-madrid-3-liverpool-1/

A really simple graph just to have a general idea of where you would put your players in possession.

As I said if you guys aren't really into any formation and shape discussion we just might not have those match discussions anyway. Just post an initial formation graphic and be done with it.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

You told me 10 times along with Jim Beam that you will post a formation graphic as otherwise it's pretty confusing. So far no graph is posted mate.

To me that's deflecting however you put it.

Every tactical analysis includes formation graphic with the players in their zones. You know you have to play a higher line with your CB's when we shape in defence, but in terms of voting purposes won't even post your shape in possession, can't really understand that.

In the graph above we have a static situation, it's a simple ask really to show your players where would be on the pitch.

If we can't do that it makes the whole matchday discussion pretty futile and pointless.

no, i never told you that we will post a graphic unless you provide a game scenario on which id gladly would respond. What you posted after is not a game scenario but a squeezed formation picture on one half that shows your team defending, i really cant be bothered with that as i told you numerous times, one graphic will show absolutely nothing because when ever you have a fluid game plan that is impossible to showcase via picture.
Beam told you he will post it but i told him to not bother with it.

I responded to your graph above and told you how and where would both Schulz and our wingback be positioned and where and when would they move.

 

[Enigma_87]

But you know what, you provide a game scenario via formation picture and post it here, i will then reupload with the position of our centerbacks.

No. Will put you a formation while we're in attacking phase shortly.

What else game scenario you like mate? I told you where the ball is, how our players are positioned and you still can't post a formation picture?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

this is pointless and tiring, i need a sub @Jim Beam

@Enigma_87 i already answered both of those quotes, im sure you read it but for some reason you keep banging on about it

 

[Enigma_87]

this is pointless and tiring, i need a sub @Jim Beam

@Enigma_87 i already answered both of those quotes, im sure you read it but for some reason you keep banging on about it

As I said. It's good tactic mate as I know both of you guys won't post one regardless of whether I'm banging about it. It works for the voters as it's harder to see it described in a wall of text. It might work for this round, but won't work in the QF's IMO.

Making it tiring debate works in your favor either way as I've already said you just deflect your players position on the pitch because you know that it suits counter attacking team and especially stacking them against Ronaldo and Robben.

Don't get me wrong, it's a good work from you guys as you mask your deficiencies in the defensive phase and the ability to get the ball back or defend on counter so great job so far.

 

[Physiocrat]

But still you haven't addressed having 3 playmakers in the middle of the park against Neeskens and Davids.

If they were defending as much as you then it would certainly be an issue but in their more possession orientated side it is less of an issue.

As you said Tito is excellent distributing the ball to wide channels. Why do we need to have that many playmakers in the team? Both Davids and Neeskens are great at passing the ball quickly into channels.

I don't think you need three playmakers in midfield, just one who is really good at long passing which unfortunately I don't think you have one quite good enough at it.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

here we go

Spoiler: original setup

Spoiler: phase 1

Spoiler: phase 2

Spoiler: phase 3

 

[Enigma_87]

here we go

Never seen more disjointed set up, but hey you are winning so I guess it's ok

 

[Enigma_87]

If they were defending as much as you then it would certainly be an issue but in their more possession orientated side it is less of an issue.



I don't think you need three playmakers in midfield, just one who is really good at long passing which unfortunately I don't think you have one quite good enough at it.

They will be on the backfoot more often than not mate. Davids and Neeskens are great at hounding them in our own half and you can't look further than them at dispossessing them. They won't look good in transition, especially with zonal instructions when they lose the ball.

You have Stam and Ruggeri not really comfortable dealing with Robben and Cristiano on the backfoot and as you yourself mentioned Armfield and Sergi up the pitch.

They would need Laudrup and Giresse to stay central and their wing backs are the width provider it's just what it is. When they are providing width that would isolate Ronaldo and Robben 1 on 1 with their LCB and RCB.

As you mentioned it depends on how many chances we will get - but in stacked midfield and defence - both Godin and Carvalho are well equipped to dealing in deeper line and defend the fort and Neeskens/Davids are excellent at dispossessing the opposition. We might not even need to start always the attack from deep with Neeskens and Davids quickly bringing the ball forward - there's only Redondo to stop them considering the non pressing instruction.

All in all it's pretty disjointed set up in the defensive phase when they lose the ball, yet good enough to stop Ronaldo and Robben.

Sjor above posted the formation when they are in possession, would you agree that this doesn't really look fluid as mentioned so far?