No. Will put you a formation while we're in attacking phase shortly.
P&G Draft - R1: Team Beam vs Enigma Bonito
- Thread starter Physiocrat
- Start date
Laudrup and Giresse would be occupied by Davids and Neeskens, not Tito.
The issue is not Laudrup or Romario but your defensive line, which I'd love to see a formation graphic in possession since you aren't playing high line in possession.
You have footage of both in this thread, Armfield was one of the first overlapping fullbacks in england and was voted "best right-back in Europe" between 1962 and 1964 as was acclaimed as "the best right-back in the world" after WC 62 in Chile.
Think you missplaced Giresse for someone else, he was drifting out right not left.
Think Giresse is bound to do a lot of heavy lifting here tho. Interested to hear more on your midfield set up. Only Redondo is the more defensive one there, whilst others were usually devoid of any defensive responsibility rather than pure zone.
Pretty certain I have watched that Giresse footage you have pasted sometime in the past.
My memory of him as a player was of someone who impacted the inside left on his bursts forwards but a more level axis when he impacted from deep (similar from left/right/centre).
(Rewatched the video you shared and he did drift wide right at times by the looks of it, but his bursts on the left were much more better in the video as well. Definitely need to watch more)
Regarding the high lane, i know we here like to go extremes(probably why balanced players are usually the one that nobody gives a feck) but why should we play a high line for the possession based team? There is absolutely no reason for it unless your defensive tactic is high press. Plenty of teams played offensive and possession wise and not used the high line. That is a fairly recent thing. Just look at Fergie 06-09 team, known as a counter-attacking team but for 90% of the games they played a possession wise football. Team was perfectly capable of playing both on the counter and on possession patterns, in the same game. Guess what, no high line. Id say pre Tiki Taka there was 95% possesssion based teams that did not play in a high line.
Dont really understand the criticism of our defenders ability on the ball, while ok Ruggeri and Stam were nothing spectacular but in the same way they are perfectly capable to hold their own here, its not that they are facing Elkjaer and Tevez; but feck me if i understand it with Schulz, guy was fantastic and calm on the ball, just because he didnt bombard forward like most liberos/sweepers that doesnt mean he wasnt great on the ball. He was a high priority for us as we had backup for every player bar him after we picked Redondo. We needed someone that is great on the ball but in the same way is selfless on it and wont push up to disturb Redondo's game.
As for Godin, id agree with both of you. On one page he defended everyone and their dog and did a great job during his career but its also fair to say he never really faced anyone like Romario, would be an epic battle.
I reckon Butragueno could be a match decider from the shadow, everyone is focused around the "big dogs" that it feels like he is an forgotten man here and boy could he play. Capable of magic moments(part of the game where we have upper hand and its not even close), insane dribbling ability, eye for the pass etc.
No wonder he was Cruyff's favorte player
Dont really understand the criticism of our defenders ability on the ball, while ok Ruggeri and Stam were nothing spectacular but in the same way they are perfectly capable to hold their own here, its not that they are facing Elkjaer and Tevez; but feck me if i understand it with Schulz, guy was fantastic and calm on the ball, just because he didnt bombard forward like most liberos/sweepers that doesnt mean he wasnt great on the ball. He was a high priority for us as we had backup for every player bar him after we picked Redondo. We needed someone that is great on the ball but in the same way is selfless on it and wont push up to disturb Redondo's game.
As for Godin, id agree with both of you. On one page he defended everyone and their dog and did a great job during his career but its also fair to say he never really faced anyone like Romario, would be an epic battle.
I reckon Butragueno could be a match decider from the shadow, everyone is focused around the "big dogs" that it feels like he is an forgotten man here and boy could he play. Capable of magic moments(part of the game where we have upper hand and its not even close), insane dribbling ability, eye for the pass etc.
No wonder he was Cruyff's favorte player
Maybe that was him at club level, for france everytime i watched he was drifting out right.
@Šjor Bepo
from the last page @Jim Beam mentioned that you want to have the lion's share of the possession. If you want to have the most of possession then you have to move more bodies in our half. Doesn't really make sense otherwise.
Take City for example you have to have good players to play ball from the back, you can't expect Redondo to constantly drop to pick and receive the ball.
Schulz is a defensive sweeper who never pushed forward and if you are relying on him to distribute the ball from the back you again would need him closer to the center line.
If you don't have a high line then there will be a huge gap between your defensive line and your midfield line. I'm still not sure how exactly you guys want to position our players in possession.
Neither Ruggeri, nor Stam were ball playing defenders from memory and you need at least one of them along with your sweeper to be comfortable on the ball to make that tactic work.
Your only primarily source of width is Sergi and Armfield, you need both deeper in our half to offer options on the wings when you are in possession and you can't have it both ways - that would leave huge gaps for Ronaldo and Robben to exploit.
Robben and Careca are perfectly capable of pressing your CB's mate. They aren't Tevez and Elkjaer but they aren't Berba either.
There are lots of things I can see going wrong here in this 5-3-2:
- Redondo the only defensive midfielder in that set up.
- Schulz is not the libero type to overload the midfield
- no ball playing CB at the back
- lack of width apart from Armfield and Sergi
- lots of space left for Ronaldo, Robben and Careca to exploit
from the last page @Jim Beam mentioned that you want to have the lion's share of the possession. If you want to have the most of possession then you have to move more bodies in our half. Doesn't really make sense otherwise.
Take City for example you have to have good players to play ball from the back, you can't expect Redondo to constantly drop to pick and receive the ball.
Schulz is a defensive sweeper who never pushed forward and if you are relying on him to distribute the ball from the back you again would need him closer to the center line.
If you don't have a high line then there will be a huge gap between your defensive line and your midfield line. I'm still not sure how exactly you guys want to position our players in possession.
Neither Ruggeri, nor Stam were ball playing defenders from memory and you need at least one of them along with your sweeper to be comfortable on the ball to make that tactic work.
Your only primarily source of width is Sergi and Armfield, you need both deeper in our half to offer options on the wings when you are in possession and you can't have it both ways - that would leave huge gaps for Ronaldo and Robben to exploit.
Robben and Careca are perfectly capable of pressing your CB's mate. They aren't Tevez and Elkjaer but they aren't Berba either.
There are lots of things I can see going wrong here in this 5-3-2:
- Redondo the only defensive midfielder in that set up.
- Schulz is not the libero type to overload the midfield
- no ball playing CB at the back
- lack of width apart from Armfield and Sergi
- lots of space left for Ronaldo, Robben and Careca to exploit
Beam is drunk most of the time, only god knows what he said or wanted to say
When we discussed it prior the the game and tbf even before the draft it was a possession based team because of the player profiles we have on the pitch but not possession at all costs as we are perfectly fine with a more balanced approach and game in general.
Yes Schulz never pushed forward and thats the biggest reason we picked him, alongside his quality of course. His job is to make sure we cant be pressed, he is the calm head at the back so when ever Robben and Careca press both Stam and Ruggeri have an easy option at the back. Offensive wise his job is to get the ball towards Redondo so the maestro can do his thing.
There is plenty of width in the team, we have Sergi and Armfield but we also have 2 midfielders that like to drift out wide and lets not forget Butragueno who often pulled out wide.
- Redondo the only defensive midfielder in that set up. - ideally you want 5 players behind Redondo, we have 5
- Schulz is not the libero type to overload the midfield - and that makes him perfect for our team
- no ball playing CB at the back - Wili says hi
- lack of width apart from Armfield and Sergi - Armfield, Sergi, Giresse, Laudrup, Butragueno....yeah reckon we might be short in this department.
- lots of space left for Ronaldo, Robben and Careca to exploit - dissagree
Enigma's midfield will win this. Davids/Neeskens is just spectacular!
Team Beam seems to have for a all flair passing midfield. I wonder how effective they will be at recovering the ball.
Team Beam seems to have for a all flair passing midfield. I wonder how effective they will be at recovering the ball.
btw you said Ronaldo Madrid version but IMO there are 2 versions of him at the club.
I sense you lads have different approach to the team and couldn't agree on the overall approach.Beam is drunk most of the time, only god knows what he said or wanted to say
When we discussed it prior the the game and tbf even before the draft it was a possession based team because of the player profiles we have on the pitch but not possession at all costs as we are perfectly fine with a more balanced approach and game in general.
But in possession approach you have to have him closer to the middle of the park which isn't his game. It's really like 2 different people have picked the line up
You have Giresse, Laudrup, Redondo, Butrageno, Sergi and Romario who are well suited to possession based game. Then you have Armfield, Schulz, Ruggeri, Stam who are far from possession based game, and the balance really breaks. Sergi and Armfield aren't Cafu and Facchetti mate. We have to have this in mind considering how are described here. At the end Sergi isn't one of the best full backs of his era and neither he's the most solid defensively one. Ferrer was the more defensively solid one in the Barca set up and here he's expect to keep Robben quiet and also provide the width up front. He isn't in the elite rank in terms of all time draft to hold his own IMO for both tasks.
- you also have 4 with little to no contribution in defence - Romario, Butrageno, Giresse, Laudrup. They relied on other players to do the defensive shift for them.
- how so? Leaving Redondo on his own to do the defensive work?
- being comfortable doesn't mean he's Beckenbauer here mate. West Germany game wasn't based on him distributing the ball from the back.
- again if you aren't using Giresse and Laudrup centrally you'll have a lot of issues in the middle of the park. It's like Davids and Neeskens are completely forgotten here.
- how you will set up with the ball then and in possession? Where will your CB's be positioned on the pitch?
Well seems that only Redondo will do that. 5-3-2 seems the perfect draft system. Wing backs aren't really exposed, provide all the width and somehow CB's are supposed to keep Robben and Ronaldo quiet.
Very tough to vote against Team Beam here as I love their defensive shape against the opposition. And their front 4 looks quite tasty as well.
But there was no need for Redondo in that team IMO. Agree with Enigma that he is over worked here and not the best shield for that midfield.
Heart says Romario, but the mind says Ronaldo. Gotta go with the mind for now. Will reconsider my vote tomorrow based on the discussion. Good luck.
But there was no need for Redondo in that team IMO. Agree with Enigma that he is over worked here and not the best shield for that midfield.
Heart says Romario, but the mind says Ronaldo. Gotta go with the mind for now. Will reconsider my vote tomorrow based on the discussion. Good luck.
win win for us, i want Beam to lose as much as i want to win and same goes for himI sense you lads have different approach to the team and couldn't agree on the overall approach.
why would we need to have him closer to the middle park?But in possession approach you have to have him closer to the middle of the park which isn't his game. It's really like 2 different people have picked the line up
Im sorry but thats just bs, both Stam and Ruggeri are fecking centerbacks and they are not some donkeyes on the ball like Smalling. For their position they are more then good enough on the ball, i mean Stam was a key member of Holland 98, team that played fantastic football on that tournament in possession.
Schulz was great, calm and composed on the ball....i really have to make a compilation for him once i fix my pc because this is a joke. Armfield i only watched one game and until the whole team collapsed towards the end he was playing fantastic in possession, on a shit pitch. So on this modern pitches you can argue the old guys would look even better.
Who said they are Cafu and Facchetti? They are here as support players, their job is to hold width, keep the shape in defence and overlapp when needed. Both are more then good enough to execte that task.
If we went 4231 with a DM alongside Redondo then there would be no issues with those 4 up but this way somehow that becames an issue even though you have 5 defenders behind Redondo....feck if you had a GOAT number 10 id mightg understand the negativity but your most offensive mid is Neeskens and you said he would keep an eye on Laudrup so his offensive contribution will be limited specially as you guys are playing on the counter.
So because West Germany never used him in that role we cant use him here? Shall we ban then all older players because they never played moder formation we are mostly using them?
They are used centrally but will both drift out wide, main template for this team was used from England of this summer(whole tactic is different as we have footballers in midfield that can play) so where they had Lingard and fecking Delle Alli we have Laudrup and Giresse. Iniesta was a central midfielder that was drifting left, Schuster was a central midfilder that was drigting right, Giresse drifted right, Laudrup drifted everywhere so its not we are trying to invent hot water or something. Players played that role for years and were perfectly capable to balance the act.
Thats why i said to beam that he doesnt need to bother with formation picture because one picture will tell absolutely nothing, there are million scenarios where a certain player will find himself. In some situation Armfield will find himself wide right in the final third, in some will be Giresse, in some will be both etc. To many possible scenaris to showcase with one formation picture.
You both completely evade the question where will your CB's be positioned when you are on the ball tho. It's quite clear that they have to be closer to the center line otherwise you will have huge gap between the midfield and defence - and that suits our team pretty well as Robben and Ronaldo would have plenty of joy.
They are a bit inferior when it comes to defend against GOAT wide forwards and wingers tho which is the point. You don't need just good players, but pretty solid wing backs to execute formation like that against Ronaldo/Robben combo.
Still there's only Redondo who has defensive functions in that midfield, which against Neeskens/Davids won't hold. If there is players who combine the dual role with all the world class acumen that's Davids and Neeskens - one of the best box to box midfielders in the game.
There isn't that much graft in that midfield like you describe it tho. Laudrup and Giresse both relied on others to do the heavy lifting. Neither of them put a shift in defensively on regular basis and against Neeskens/Davids it's too light of a midfield.
As Edgar pointed, when you lose the ball who will regain possession in midfield?
You need a formation graphic if you claim that you will play in the same time deep line and possession based game, it doesn't really make any sense and you are kinda having it both ways.
I'm off mate, good luck will let @Joga Bonito take over
Creative set up in midfield from @Šjor Bepo @Jim Beam - like it a lot.
i said it before where will they be, Schulz will be slightly behind Stam and Ruggeri to ensure both of them cant be pressed and that they have an easy way out. Didnt even mention so far but Gyula was also pretty famous for being good with the ball IIRC but not important now. Where will they position, well it depends where your team will be positioned. If you guys do a Mourinho then yes, they will be very close to a center line if not it depends on the situation on the pitch. If we have huge gaps while we are in possession then you are in problems not us. Defensive wise players are fast and mobile enough to get back into shape very quickly and we always have 4 players at the back to keep as secure from counters.
Which one of those 2 drama queens will be first to bitch around how other is selfish?
They are not alone in the battle, we have a back 3 alongside this two so there is a lot of protection at the back even though you try to argue otherwise.
Well yeah, tha whole point of the back 3 formation is that you need less protection in the midfield. At the end of the day, you want 5 defensive players alongside Redondo and here we have 5 and lets not pretend he is a Pirlo type, he will put his shift on that pitch. Giresse and Butragueno im confident would be able to put their shift on as well and run as much as we need them from that position. For Laudrup im not so sure but thats partly the reason we picked young Butragueno who pressed pretty well and was a willing runner. Just in case Laudrup thing doesnt work, i honestly cant say would it work or not.
We never said we played deep line just like we never said we are playing high line. Its a balanced approach.
@Jim Beam
@Enigma_87 's off so I'm taking over for the meanwhile. @Šjor Bepo do you mind voting for your own side so that I can vote for mine to balance it out too? It's bugging me not being able to view the score 
Good luck @Jim Beam @Šjor Bepo . Well crafted side as usual and may the best side win.
A couple of points on why I believe we have the edge here.
1) Midfield battle
This one's been heavily discussed so far but this is the area where we believe we'll be able to gain the upper hand in this match. First off let me say that's a lovely midfield we are squaring up against, and one that I'll pay good money to watch with the flair and artistry it possesses. That being said, our midfield trio in Davids-Neeskens-Goncalves has the dynamism, defensive nous and the physicality to not be taken on a spin here and be more than a match for opposition's ball-playing ability.
On the other hand, and this is the most vital aspect, Jim Beam's midfield simply does not have the requisite tenacity or the industry to cope with our midfield's bite. Whilst Giresse could put a decent shift in, Laudrup who wasn't really noted for his work-rate and it leaves too much heavy lifting for Redondo to do here. And let's not forget that Redondo was a complete and a classy all-rounder and not your archetypal aggressive and dynamic ball-winner in the mould of a Desailly/Davids which is what is called for here with the midfield duo of Laudrup-Giresse ahead of him and with a defensive sweeper in Schulz who is not going to provide much support to midfield (in terms of ball-winning and presence in the midfield, not his passing mind).
Just imagine Neeskens or Davids going off on one of their lung-bursting runs forward, would you put your money on Giresse or Laudrup stopping them, and would Redondo be enough to do all the heavy lifting in midfield here? Whilst it's a back 5 set up, and it is Redondo as the DM, let's not forget that it's not your average midfield in terms of explosiveness, dynamism and creativity in Neeskens-Davids-Goncalves
tl;dr - their midfield will have more of the ball but ours is more than defensively solid enough to limit their offensive impetus whilst the same can't be said for their midfield imo.
2) Ronaldo-Careca-Robben
Ronaldo's surprisingly gone under the radar here (better mention him before he goes sulking about), and as highly as I rate Stam, Ronaldo's in a rarefied company of greats and has elevated himself to the echelons from being merely a great goalscorer (top 5/top 10 GOAT or whatever I will probably go mad if there was another discussion on that ). The man simply screams goals and with the cast beside him it's going to take some stopping, and more so than his heading and goals, it's his sheer impact and his sheer bloody minded drive to score no matter what which has truly made him the machine that he is.
Stam is a great centre-back but ultimately it's going to be a tough task for him to get a handle on Ronaldo with his elusive moment and simply all round goalscoring ability, considering the fluidity and creativity of his fellow forwards in Robben-Careca, which would make it a nightmare to keep an eye on an one of the forward trio. More on Careca later*.
Ultimately I'd back our midfield to stifle the creative cast of Jim Beam's and our quick tempo and dynamic midfield play would be too much for them to handle. With a nifty and deadly forward trio, with the 3 of them being adept at scoring or creating an opportunity, at the end of the service we believe we have the edge here to beat Jim Beam's side.
Good luck @Jim Beam @Šjor Bepo . Well crafted side as usual and may the best side win.
A couple of points on why I believe we have the edge here.
1) Midfield battle
This one's been heavily discussed so far but this is the area where we believe we'll be able to gain the upper hand in this match. First off let me say that's a lovely midfield we are squaring up against, and one that I'll pay good money to watch with the flair and artistry it possesses. That being said, our midfield trio in Davids-Neeskens-Goncalves has the dynamism, defensive nous and the physicality to not be taken on a spin here and be more than a match for opposition's ball-playing ability.
On the other hand, and this is the most vital aspect, Jim Beam's midfield simply does not have the requisite tenacity or the industry to cope with our midfield's bite. Whilst Giresse could put a decent shift in, Laudrup who wasn't really noted for his work-rate and it leaves too much heavy lifting for Redondo to do here. And let's not forget that Redondo was a complete and a classy all-rounder and not your archetypal aggressive and dynamic ball-winner in the mould of a Desailly/Davids which is what is called for here with the midfield duo of Laudrup-Giresse ahead of him and with a defensive sweeper in Schulz who is not going to provide much support to midfield (in terms of ball-winning and presence in the midfield, not his passing mind).
Just imagine Neeskens or Davids going off on one of their lung-bursting runs forward, would you put your money on Giresse or Laudrup stopping them, and would Redondo be enough to do all the heavy lifting in midfield here? Whilst it's a back 5 set up, and it is Redondo as the DM, let's not forget that it's not your average midfield in terms of explosiveness, dynamism and creativity in Neeskens-Davids-Goncalves
tl;dr - their midfield will have more of the ball but ours is more than defensively solid enough to limit their offensive impetus whilst the same can't be said for their midfield imo.
2) Ronaldo-Careca-Robben
Ronaldo's surprisingly gone under the radar here (better mention him before he goes sulking about
), and as highly as I rate Stam, Ronaldo's in a rarefied company of greats and has elevated himself to the echelons from being merely a great goalscorer (top 5/top 10 GOAT or whatever I will probably go mad if there was another discussion on that ). The man simply screams goals and with the cast beside him it's going to take some stopping, and more so than his heading and goals, it's his sheer impact and his sheer bloody minded drive to score no matter what which has truly made him the machine that he is.
Stam is a great centre-back but ultimately it's going to be a tough task for him to get a handle on Ronaldo with his elusive moment and simply all round goalscoring ability, considering the fluidity and creativity of his fellow forwards in Robben-Careca, which would make it a nightmare to keep an eye on an one of the forward trio. More on Careca later*.
Ultimately I'd back our midfield to stifle the creative cast of Jim Beam's and our quick tempo and dynamic midfield play would be too much for them to handle. With a nifty and deadly forward trio, with the 3 of them being adept at scoring or creating an opportunity, at the end of the service we believe we have the edge here to beat Jim Beam's side.
Just to clear some things, although Sjor already answered to most of them.
That isn't 3-1-4-2 in possession quite clearly, isn't it? More like a chaotic 3-2-3-2. The back 3 are all almost in goalkeeper's arms and cut off from midfield which probably won't be the case most of the time, but depends pretty much on how you are positioned on the pitch. Redondo is the link from defensive phase while Laudrup and Giresse are pretty much in their positions in midfield while wingbacks join them, stretching the pitch and opening up space for the central midfielders to run into or pass into. Because they are wing-backs, not wingers, Sergi and Armfield will naturally hold slightly deeper positions, meaning they are usually in place to either receive a pass, spread a receiving pass or simply act as a means of stretching the pitch. Don't see any problem here and the formation easily transforms into 5-3-2 when we lose the ball.
There is also a clear indication that when we lose the ball, we go back into 5-3-2, hard to break. And we have no problems in doing so, quite the opposite, as this team is highly dangerous on the counter also. Which is mentioned before too.
That isn't 3-1-4-2 in possession quite clearly, isn't it? More like a chaotic 3-2-3-2. The back 3 are all almost in goalkeeper's arms and cut off from midfield which probably won't be the case most of the time, but depends pretty much on how you are positioned on the pitch. Redondo is the link from defensive phase while Laudrup and Giresse are pretty much in their positions in midfield while wingbacks join them, stretching the pitch and opening up space for the central midfielders to run into or pass into. Because they are wing-backs, not wingers, Sergi and Armfield will naturally hold slightly deeper positions, meaning they are usually in place to either receive a pass, spread a receiving pass or simply act as a means of stretching the pitch. Don't see any problem here and the formation easily transforms into 5-3-2 when we lose the ball.
I never said that we will have "lion's share of the possession", I said it's likely to have more of it and be most importantly more dangerous while we have it because of supreme passing ability in the team. This isn't some Van Gaal vision of football, this is possession with intent to break your defensive set up while we have the ball, as most players are there with an exquisite sense for opening up defences at any time along with Romario and Butragueno upfront.
There is also a clear indication that when we lose the ball, we go back into 5-3-2, hard to break. And we have no problems in doing so, quite the opposite, as this team is highly dangerous on the counter also. Which is mentioned before too.
Laudrup – Romario partnership
The reason for this partnership to work so brilliantly, is, well quite simple. Both players were absolute geniuses on the pitch but in different aspects of their game which complimented the other player's qualities. While Romario was one of the world's best in putting the ball inside the net from any place or any position possible, Laudrup was one of the world's best in providing balls to his strikers from any place or any position on the pitch.
Romario was bought in 1992, while Laudrup was already there for 4 seasons. It was enough for Romario to say the following as they easily won their first La Liga title together:
"The best player I have ever played with and the 4th best in the history of the game.
However, it was an understandable sentence for anyone who has seen them play together as they struck up an immediate partnership, Laudrup supplying the ammunition for the Brazilian's unfaltering finishes and making Romario the top goalscorer of 1993/94 La Liga season.
Quite simply they were an unstoppable force, whether there was a need to unlock a deep-seated defence with all players behind the ball or to pull up a devastating counter-attack while the opponent wasn't fully settled.
The reason for this partnership to work so brilliantly, is, well quite simple. Both players were absolute geniuses on the pitch but in different aspects of their game which complimented the other player's qualities. While Romario was one of the world's best in putting the ball inside the net from any place or any position possible, Laudrup was one of the world's best in providing balls to his strikers from any place or any position on the pitch.
Romario was bought in 1992, while Laudrup was already there for 4 seasons. It was enough for Romario to say the following as they easily won their first La Liga title together:
"The best player I have ever played with and the 4th best in the history of the game.
However, it was an understandable sentence for anyone who has seen them play together as they struck up an immediate partnership, Laudrup supplying the ammunition for the Brazilian's unfaltering finishes and making Romario the top goalscorer of 1993/94 La Liga season.
Quite simply they were an unstoppable force, whether there was a need to unlock a deep-seated defence with all players behind the ball or to pull up a devastating counter-attack while the opponent wasn't fully settled.
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Would like to people just take notice of videos and especially those goals against Sevilla or in CL against Dynamo Kiev. Look at the position occupied by Laudrup and how quickly they are able to exploit the other side on the counter. Which is one of the reasons we're banging about the ability of this team to be also a big threat in the transition if the opposition loses the ball.
Good luck to you also, a lovely team we're against. As you say, may the best team win.
For the midfield battle, we assumed it would be most talked point here. Your team has great dynamism and physicality no doubt about it. But, if you do count that our team goes into a classic 5-3-2 shape with the defence of such quality I just don't think it will easily be broken. And while your midfield probably has more bite to it and a bit more aggression I would argue ours is much more creative and capable of deadly passes for our attackers.
Even if you say they will go pass Laudrup in defence or Giresse will just put a decent shift in, there is still a wall of 6 players behind them.
I also think you're underrating Redondo, especially in terms of aggression or ball winning ability. At his peak, he was exactly that, at times basically a one-man DM for Madrid on the way to 2 CL titles. I honestly think he was always best used in a sole DM which is exactly what he is doing here.
Also, that theory goes both ways, if you lose the ball while Neeskens and Davids are going on "lung-bursting runs forward" would you put your money that your defence will stop Giresse and Laudrup fully ready for the counter on another side with Romario and Butragueno upfront. Especially, with Redondo being able to pull a deadly pass also.
Cheers.
I'd also say our midfield is a level or two ahead in the dynamism and physicality in 2 of the most dynamic B2Bs in Neeskens and Davids, and a resolute anchor in Goncalves. Even with our difference on how we rate Redondo's ball winning ability, there's still a bit of a divide there imo.
On the other hand, I feel you might be underrating the creativity and the ball-playing ability of our midfield with the calm and assured passing of Goncalves who functioned as the deep lying playmaker for the great Penarol side of the 60s.
And of course not much needs to be said of Neeskens who is arguably one of the most creative and technically gifted B2B midfielders ever.
Indeed it's a solid defense and I rate Schulz pretty highly myself and think he'll do well there but not offering enough resistance in midfield and relying on defense is definitely a dangerous game to be playing with our forward trio who are just as capable of that moment of individual brilliance or a deftly worked team goal. Esp with the fluidity and inter-changing potential there, it might be too much for your defense to come to terms too with the likes of Ruggeri and Stam more renowned for their aggressive ball winning abilities than their deft positioning or nimbleness (I'd give Schulz that though).
Ultimately though it won't be both Neeskens and Davids going on their runs simultaneously, although obviously they'd be involved heavily in the build-up phase with their crisp and precise passing and one-twos etc. With a anchor man in Goncalves and 2 positionally sound and tactically disciplined B2Bs in Neeskens-Davids, I'd say the chances that they are caught off guard is minimal as opposed to Giresse and Laudrup being outmuscled by one of our midfielders.
Only skimming things, so just a couple of observations. On first glance Beam's midfield seems too attacking. But to be fair the 3-5-2 can accommodate a more attack-minded midfield trio because typically there are five defenders on the park, as opposed to the standard four. The best Redondo-related example would be Real Madrid's 3-5-2 from 2000. I'd counter the impression that Giresse wouldn't contribute defensively - he was a busy fetcher and forager who would hook up really well with like-minded creatives such as Laudrup.
Or you could go back to West Germany's 3-5-2 from the latter stages of 1990:
Or you could go back to West Germany's 3-5-2 from the latter stages of 1990:
Antonio de Oliveira Filho
It was Maradona who brought Careca to Napoli, having told the club's owners: "You must get this guy."
"Day to day," Maradona has said many times, "Careca is the best player in the world."
He had seemed destined to be a phenom on Brazil's 1982 Cup team. But an injured thigh muscle prevented him from playing. Disheartened, he considered quitting the game. "I thought the world had fallen on my head," he said.
By 1983, his love for soccer had revived and, in 1986, he appeared to be Brazil's chief World Cup hope. But the '86 team had several holdovers from its much-touted '82 team that had been beaten in the second round, 3-2, when Paolo Rossi scored three goals for Italy, a setback that traumatized the nation.
Careca didn't fit with that clique. He didn't even get the publicity he deserved for scoring five goals, runner-up with England's Gary Lineker to Maradona's six.
But Careca's goal-scoring ability didn't escape the notice of Maradona, already a god in Napoli. As a midfielder who usually stays close to the goal, Maradona envisioned squirting upfield and having a virtuoso like Careca waiting there. Together, the two could make the sweetest music in all of Italy.
Maradona spoke. Napoli paid Sao Paulo $3.5 million, a record for a Brazilian player.
Any time he had arrived at a new club, Careca had quickly assimilated into the way the team played. His time with Napoli was no different. Some may argue that it would be easy to play alongside a talent such as Maradona in his prime, others would argue the reverse; but the rapidity with which the Brazilian striker struck up a relationship with the Argentine genius argued very much for the former – at least in his case anyway. They were the two elements of a dovetail joint that fitted perfectly together to build success for Napoli. Maradona was the light drawing defenders to him like moths to a flame, while Careca was the stiletto, the striker finding the space for Maradona’s carefully crafted passes and driving home the killer strike. In the brief years he was in tandem with Maradona, Napoli became a team capable of taking on anyone and winning out, with each partner of equal worth. If there’s a fitting epitaph to the time Careca spent with the Partenopei, perhaps it’s that when paired with one of the greatest players of all time, he delivered and lost little in comparison.
Careca's masterclass against Baresi's Milan and France int he 1986 WC Quarter Finals
In 1970, he watched on television as Pele's team trounced Italy, 4-1, in Mexico City to win the World Cup. But his eyes were on Tostao, not Pele. After that, Careca said, "I would try to emulate everything about him, even the way he walked."
It is in honor of Tostao that Careca wears No. 9 on the back of his buttery yellow Brazilian shirt
Careca remains to be one of the most technically gifted forwards of his time. His many different abilities allowed him to adapt accordingly in games thus making him into a goal-scoring machine, whilst also striking deadly partnerships with his attacking teammates. He was very much a deadly and complete goalscoring forward - left foot, right foot, heading - and a creative foil rolled into one. He was comfortable dropping onto either flank, or dropping deep to facilitate and link up play, drag defenders out of position and create opening, and he was very much capable of playing the killer pass for his fellow forwards. On the other hand he was a deadly and prolific presence in the penalty box with his poaching ability, ruthless finishing, heading ability and most importantly his ability to jinx past defenders in the tightest of spaces. Very much the ideal spearhead for our set-up and Ronaldo and Robben will be on the same wavelength with the nifty Brazilian.
Lazaroni said:
England coach Bobby Robson said:
It was Maradona who brought Careca to Napoli, having told the club's owners: "You must get this guy."
"Day to day," Maradona has said many times, "Careca is the best player in the world."
He had seemed destined to be a phenom on Brazil's 1982 Cup team. But an injured thigh muscle prevented him from playing. Disheartened, he considered quitting the game. "I thought the world had fallen on my head," he said.
By 1983, his love for soccer had revived and, in 1986, he appeared to be Brazil's chief World Cup hope. But the '86 team had several holdovers from its much-touted '82 team that had been beaten in the second round, 3-2, when Paolo Rossi scored three goals for Italy, a setback that traumatized the nation.
Careca didn't fit with that clique. He didn't even get the publicity he deserved for scoring five goals, runner-up with England's Gary Lineker to Maradona's six.
But Careca's goal-scoring ability didn't escape the notice of Maradona, already a god in Napoli. As a midfielder who usually stays close to the goal, Maradona envisioned squirting upfield and having a virtuoso like Careca waiting there. Together, the two could make the sweetest music in all of Italy.
Maradona spoke. Napoli paid Sao Paulo $3.5 million, a record for a Brazilian player.
Any time he had arrived at a new club, Careca had quickly assimilated into the way the team played. His time with Napoli was no different. Some may argue that it would be easy to play alongside a talent such as Maradona in his prime, others would argue the reverse; but the rapidity with which the Brazilian striker struck up a relationship with the Argentine genius argued very much for the former – at least in his case anyway. They were the two elements of a dovetail joint that fitted perfectly together to build success for Napoli. Maradona was the light drawing defenders to him like moths to a flame, while Careca was the stiletto, the striker finding the space for Maradona’s carefully crafted passes and driving home the killer strike. In the brief years he was in tandem with Maradona, Napoli became a team capable of taking on anyone and winning out, with each partner of equal worth. If there’s a fitting epitaph to the time Careca spent with the Partenopei, perhaps it’s that when paired with one of the greatest players of all time, he delivered and lost little in comparison.
Careca's masterclass against Baresi's Milan and France int he 1986 WC Quarter Finals
In 1970, he watched on television as Pele's team trounced Italy, 4-1, in Mexico City to win the World Cup. But his eyes were on Tostao, not Pele. After that, Careca said, "I would try to emulate everything about him, even the way he walked."
It is in honor of Tostao that Careca wears No. 9 on the back of his buttery yellow Brazilian shirt
Careca remains to be one of the most technically gifted forwards of his time. His many different abilities allowed him to adapt accordingly in games thus making him into a goal-scoring machine, whilst also striking deadly partnerships with his attacking teammates. He was very much a deadly and complete goalscoring forward - left foot, right foot, heading - and a creative foil rolled into one. He was comfortable dropping onto either flank, or dropping deep to facilitate and link up play, drag defenders out of position and create opening, and he was very much capable of playing the killer pass for his fellow forwards. On the other hand he was a deadly and prolific presence in the penalty box with his poaching ability, ruthless finishing, heading ability and most importantly his ability to jinx past defenders in the tightest of spaces. Very much the ideal spearhead for our set-up and Ronaldo and Robben will be on the same wavelength with the nifty Brazilian.
@Enigma_87 @Joga Bonito How would you describe how high the defensive line the 2008 Utd side held against lower league opposition?
On the phone but just to respond to that. We aren’t lower league competition mate, where we’d just sit back and hope for a draw.
Here we definitely have edge in midfield with two of the greatest box to box midfielders in history who are perfectly capable of switching from defense to attack.
When you add Ronaldo, Robben and Careca you have a GOATish attack that could exploit every chance.
I’d compare it to Fergies United at the time playing counter attacking against Arsenal in the champions league when we beat them 3-1 at Highbury.
Have a feeling that Cristiano and Robben are really getting underrated here, which is really odd.
I think you do have a creativity and ball-playing ability in that midfield, it would be absurd to say otherwise, but it still falls short compared to ours. Same as you bigging up the dynamism of your side I think there is a clear gap when we're talking about the ability to unlock the defence from any area of the pitch in which we have an advantage.
Goncalves had a good passing ability, but if we are talking about physicality and aggression and you said Redondo failed a bit short in those aspects, the same, and much more can be said about Goncalves who did not excel in those areas and is much more suited to the team who controls the game with his calm passing imo.
I mean Redondo really had games where he was practically a one-man midfield from a defensive point of view like it's been mentioned in that 2000 side.
That changes things also because if that's the case you would basically pull one of your midfielders to stay behind as a caution. That means that Redondo deals most of the time with only one surging midfielder as great as Neeskens/or Davids was and that defensive shield of ours in 5-3-2 becomes even more solid.
Would leave the stage to @Šjor Bepo. I'm sure he can't wait to talk about Butragueno who is left a bit in a shadow of this debate so far and what he can bring on the table.
Whilst it's not a gung-ho set-up which is going to be run over, the fact is that neither Giresse nor Laudrup have the dynamism or the physicality to cope with our midfield which isn't your typical midfield and boasts 3 powerhouses. Perhaps Jim Beam's midfield wouldn't have been an issue against a more conventional set-up but against the trio of Neeskens-Davids and Goncalves who is rated as one of the greatest South American midfielders ever, it definitely does stick out like a sore thumg. And whilst Redondo was a class act, and had excellent positioning and tactical nous, I wouldn't exactly call him a great ball-winner or a dynamic midfielder in the mould of a Desailly, Davids, Rijkaard etc. His forte was his class and composure on the ball, in combination with his positioning and tactical nous. The DM position in Jim Beam's midfield calls for a more dynamic hard-running midfielder or a more physical presence imo, when we look at the light-weight Giresse and Laudrup who are outmatched physically by our midfield.
I understand that it's just you seemed to argue that a possession based team had to have a high line. Sjor countered by saying that Utd side had most of the possession against most sides and implied they didn't have a high line. All I'm asking is what was your take on Utd's defensive line. If Team Beam is playing a similar line to that why would the attack of Utd be coherent and Team Beam's not be?
You have potent and obvious routes to go on the counter and your Arsenal Utd comparison is probably accurate stylistically. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the general way the game will play out. I'm genuinely on the fence
That is definitely not true of Goncalves mate.
Not tagging him but here's the link for those interestedANTOHAN said:
Goncalves was doing the heavy lifting for Penarol, with Cortes and Abbadie being more of all-round midfielders and it was Goncalves being the prime ball winner and deep lying player of that side. If anything I'd say he'd suit your side better than Redondo
They are both playing balanced roles and whilst Neeskens is the more attacking of the duo naturally, Davids will have the remit to utilise his runs occasionally with more than ample cover in Neeskens and Goncalves. Ultimately, I can see Redondo having troubles getting to grips with Neeskens dynamism but throw in the Pitbull into the equation and it's just way too much on the plate for the Argentine, who wasn't known for his pace or dynamism, to handle.
And it's far too risky a tactic waiting and relying on the defense to deal with the trickiness of Robben, Ronaldo's ruthless goalscoring ability and Careca being his usual mobile self. As good as any defense is, the preferable method will be to be cutting off supply lines defending against such dangerous forwards. Taking the battle to them in the back-line could very easily backfire.
Its not just United team, its 90% of the possession teams prior to Pep's Barca. Playing a higher line achieves nothing when under possession of the ball, its a defensive segment of the game that suits high pressure as teams started to use that from number of reasons, first is that you get the ball faster so you have to work less on the ball in the buildup as you are high up. Second is that defenders are a dying breed and this way you can get around that so the turds like Pique and Ramos can be seen as great players even though the truth is far from it.
You can easily play a possession based system with a normal line and with no high press, that is how football was played before and im not talking about 40s or 50s im talking about era before Pep. Yes you had certain teams that were playing high line and high press before but those teams were the minority. It just means that we wont be able to play possession heavy game and that we will have to work a bit more to get up with ball in our possession and with quality of our midfielders on the ball that wont be an issue even though their opponents are great.
feck just look at that England team at WC, where was their line? They played possession based football, as much as you can with Hendo as your main midfielder.
Whilst it's not a pre-requisite for possesion sides to have a high line and go full tiki-taka Barca as @Sjor bepo accurately mentioned, possession based sides, esp ones with a back 5 will require the defensive line to be relatively higher and relatively more spread out than usual (with the wing-backs pushing forward to provide width), which is why people tend to be rather anal about the LCBs and RCBs being at ease at channels and preferably being at ease out wide too if their wing-back is caught out wide. So I won't go overboard against the high line and it's definitely a subjective view.
However, my gripe would be that whilst both Ruggeri and Stam were excellent defenders, are they the type who'd be at ease on the flank against a tricky customer such as Robben or Ronaldo when the occasion rises (which is perfectly natural and bound to happen with a back 5 with 2 attacking wing-backs)? Once again there are bound to be openings and spaces to exploit here. Ultimately whilst a high line is not a requisite (although Enigma does have a valid point that they are going to be pushed up higher and spread out wider than your average side), the fact is there are going to be more openings and space for our fluid forward trio to exploit here. In fact I do rate Armfield, although he is up against Ronaldo here which is no easy task, but Sergi's bound to find it a tough assignment against the trickery of Robben; and Ruggeri for his defensive ability, isn't the sort who'd you'd back against a 1v1 against Robben esp with the space available.
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While not being probably fully correct on Goncalves, just no to this. You would want supreme vision, creativity and passing along with efficient and aggressive tackler to make this system work. But, we obviously slightly disagree with Redondo's defensive side of the game.Goncalves was doing the heavy lifting for Penarol, with Cortes and Abbadie being more of all-round midfielders and it was Goncalves being the prime ball winner and deep lying player of that side. If anything I'd say he'd suit your side better than Redondo
People had some concerns about tiki taka before they exploded to the scenes, same goes for Brazil 70 or with Spain when they went strikerless. Fact is, when you put highly intelligent players on the pitch they make it work if characters are on the same wavelength.
We think we got it right obviously, we have probably the most selfless GOAT number 10 paired with an ultimate support player in Giresse. Our main striker has a great understanding with the GOAT 10 and you add young fire in Butragueno that wont stop running, adds different dimension to the game with his direct dribbling ability while in the same team is perfectly capable of combining with others. Add to that Redondo running the show at the back with help of selfless Schulz, if that all clicks like we think it could i wouldnt like to be in shoes of that back 4....
We think we got it right obviously, we have probably the most selfless GOAT number 10 paired with an ultimate support player in Giresse. Our main striker has a great understanding with the GOAT 10 and you add young fire in Butragueno that wont stop running, adds different dimension to the game with his direct dribbling ability while in the same team is perfectly capable of combining with others. Add to that Redondo running the show at the back with help of selfless Schulz, if that all clicks like we think it could i wouldnt like to be in shoes of that back 4....
Aye we definitely do disagree on that so fair enough, lets let the neutrals decide on it for themselves.
Neither of your midfielders is the pressing type, nor you have the ball winners in the middle of the park like strikerless Spain had. Even Brazil 70 from your example had only Tostao not contributing in midfield but all of the others did.
Both examples had 4 at the back as well. You both are really evading the question and formation when you are in possession and the zones your defenders would occupy because of that would happen on counter, and doing a good job I guess, but not really buying the whole balanced thing and your defenders farther than the center line.
As Edgar asked, how do you intend to get the ball back whilst on the backfoot?
I wouldn't be in the shoes of Stam, Ruggeri and especially Sergi and Armfield when Robben and Cristiano get the ball facing the goal.
This is Robben on counter:
Robben clocked 37kph at the 2014 World Cup. He's at league of his own, especially given the time on the ball.
And of course Cristiano:
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I went over this already and so did chief Beam, when we lose the ball we dont press we go back to the original defensive shape, with quickness of all our players that wont be an issue. So while we have the setup in place you have a back 5 + Redondo at DM + Laudrup/Butragueno and Giresse covering central zone in front of Redondo.
How we preparing for the counter? Well, its not easy to counter a team that always has a back 4 at the back - back 3 + Redondo or one of the fullbacks, mostly Redondo though.
With you setting up for the counter and with player profiles as they are on the pitch there is no doubt we will dominate possession so we have creative geniuses like Redondo, Giresse, Laudrup and Butragueno behind probably the GOAT striker when it comes to a final third movement.
Ohh and one thing we didnt really mentioned, dont think there was ever a team with so much dribbling ability as this one, pretty much from Redondo all the way to Romario you have a player with immense dribbling ability and that thing makes difference, not only are they creative feckers but they are able to make magic on their own, make surplus(brain freeze, cant find a correct wording) by just going past someone 1v1 or more. Not to mention players capable of magic moments if the game is tight and by the quality of both teams it might come to a individual brilliance.
But if you aren't pressing back it's easier for our players to switch the tempo and counter with ease. The only ball winner in the middle for you is Redondo. Neither Laudrup, nor Giresse are ball winners and neither of them will track back that fast to cover the holes. Both also lack the physicality to stop Neeskens and Davids surging through the middle.
Sergi and Armfield both will be much farther the pitch than Robben or Ronaldo to catch them. Robben is the fastest player on the pitch whilst Ronaldo isn't that far off either.
We have faster wingers who will be in space and in a better position than both your full backs when we win the ball. Giresse and Laudrup won't help in transition leaving Redondo overwhelmed in the middle.
Neither of your CB's will also step in midfield either to help out and if you go with deeper defensive line that would open even bigger gap between the midfield and defence when you are on the backfoot.
In fact I'm not sure what is worse. Not playing a high line with your full backs as main width providers or playing high line against Robben and Ronaldo.
Neither of you really answered what's the plan of getting the ball back when you lose it, apart from having good dribblers? Giresse and Laudrup not pressing back makes the issue even worse, which makes me thing both Neeskens and Davids would carry the ball unchallenged through the middle
The tiki taka (not saying you are playing one) relied on players like Xavi and Iniesta through the middle to press the opponent when they lost the ball and get it back right away. You don't have such players and neither is the plan.
Love Redondo to bits, but he also lacked pace and he is having no one besides him with the work rate and stamina to chase our players.