Have we significantly improved since we got rid of LVG?

[Kag]

We're now worse.

We're actually at that point we were under Moyes when we'd lose games we actually do alright in, conceding lots of goals while looking completely chaotic. It's at this point you can't even point to where the problem is anymore. There's that many.

Even when we would struggle to create chances under Van Gaal, we generally stuck to the game plan and played with control.

We're significantly worse and (in terms of entertainment) have been for over a year now. I've argued this before and stick to my convictions.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I dont know where you get your numbers from., but if we look at CMs and DMs alone then Matic didnt make a lot compared to the others in the league. He wasnt even in the top 10 average interceptions in CM/DMs playing over 10 games last season . Ander was ahead of him when it comes to our own midfielders. With tackles his average was 36th.

Go to premier league.com.

even here
http://www.squawka.com/en/news/ranked-the-premier-leagues-five-best-cdms-this-season-so-far/1018111


or here:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...ues-best-players-for-the-201718-season#slide5

Any claim that Matic was not doing a good job as a DM is frankly baffling

 

[Kush]

Some of you have memory of a goldfish, maybe you need to replay November to December in 2015 to see how bad things were. We failed to get out of a group of PSV, CSKA and Wolfsburg. In December we failed to win a single game and scored 2 points out of possible 15. Not to mention the wide array of shit van Gaal bought during his tenure which to this date we are unable to get rid of and he did that while gutting our squad to that extent that we had to play likes of Tyler Blackett and Donald Love in the Premier League.

If Mourinho were to walk today, next manager would have a significantly better base to build his team. Van Gaal left behind nothing but shit.

 

[JB08]

If Bailly was on form, I would be (or I'd say just Lindelof), but he isn't, so I'm not.

Tuanzebe and TFM probably could have been as good as Bailly is now had they been given the same chances. It's safe to say they'd have been BETTER than Lindelof.

Or should SAF have bought Zanetti, Thuram or Panucci in 1995? All better than Red Nev at their peak, and the first two had better careers. Or Overmars v Beckham.

Bailly is better than Tuanzebe though. Quite clearly.

 

[Kammy26]

We're now worse.

We're actually at that point we were under Moyes when we'd lose games we actually do alright in, conceding lots of goals while looking completely chaotic. It's at this point you can't even point to where the problem is anymore. There's that many.

Even when we would struggle to create chances under Van Gaal, we generally stuck to the game plan and played with control.

We're significantly worse and (in terms of entertainment) have been for over a year now. I've argued this before and stick to my convictions.

Wow. I think you have a very short memory if you think we are worse than under Van Gaal. Especially his last season.

We generally stuck to the game plan and played with control? What game plan passing the ball between the back 4 for 90 minutes. If you are doing this for the majority of the game it’s easy to look like your in control.

If you think the entertainment under Jose is significantly worse than under Van Gaal I question what sort of football you class as entertainment. Van Gaal was literally putting fans to sleep. Wtf come on man.

I am not saying Jose is a perfect fit for us and I do think he should leave at the end of the season. But what you said in your post is ridiculous to say the least.

 

[Ekeke]

Go to premier league.com.

even here
http://www.squawka.com/en/news/ranked-the-premier-leagues-five-best-cdms-this-season-so-far/1018111


or here:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...ues-best-players-for-the-201718-season#slide5

Any claim that Matic was not doing a good job as a DM is frankly baffling

So the Sqwawka article was from Feb not from the season as a whole.

The bleacherreport article doesnt say anything about interceptions. Its an opinion piece. Not based on numbers.

Looking on premierleague.com as you suggested and checking the 17/18 player stats, I see a section for tackles but none for interceptions.



Meanwhile contrary to these half season stats, opinion articles and websites that don't show interceptions, here's an actual list of average interceptions per 90 mins from midfielders in the premier league that played 10+ games :

Once again, that number alone doesn't say whether he did or didnt do a good job protecting the defense. But since you claimed he was 2nd of the midfielders at the top 6 clubs, he's actually 3rd behind Kante and our own Ander.

 

[Long Ball]

the only thing LVG had over Jose was a clear game plan and direction for the club.

I liked LVG as a personality and I did wish he'd have worked out, but his decision to switch to two DM's was a strange one considering we hit our best football under him towards the end of the season with the 4-3-3 with carrick on fire.

Its interesting how two "world class" managers went for a complete defensive overhaul, they aren't daft. in order to get the best points total they both went for a defence enhancing set up

 

[Robbie Boy]

I really don't think we have significantly improved: LvG: 136 points over the course of two seasons / Mourinho: 150 points over the course of 2 seasons.

 

[Massive Spanner]

We're now worse.

We're actually at that point we were under Moyes when we'd lose games we actually do alright in, conceding lots of goals while looking completely chaotic. It's at this point you can't even point to where the problem is anymore. There's that many.

Even when we would struggle to create chances under Van Gaal, we generally stuck to the game plan and played with control.

We're significantly worse and (in terms of entertainment) have been for over a year now. I've argued this before and stick to my convictions.

We are definitely not worse than under LvG. Two games lost doesn't change that. His second season was horrendous.

 

[EireRed_GS]

Huge improvement the first year, second year a step backwards, this year looking the same.

The footballs not great at all, but seriously.. nothing could be worse than the absolute sh*te we witnessed under LvG. I might as well have used my ticket money to just pay someone outside the ground to kick me in the balls and then headed on home.

But when we compare the present to our rivals (considering the talent we have) it's def not good enough... by a long stretch

 

[Green_Red]

Fair points. I don't really subscribe to the DNA talk in general, or really think such a thing exists. Football has evolved and will continue to; the same principles which were successful years ago aren't really applicable today.

I don't know, I like to buy into the whole "when talent doesn't work hard, hard work beats talent". You can see that now in the Premier League. Teams that work hard for one another are usually hard to beat. It's teams that think they are the shit and don't put in the work that end up on the receiving end... Brighton v Man Utd recently is a prime example.

I think if you took some of those hard working sides from the 80s, Forest say, they would have some of the top sides today for breakfast. 70's Liverpool and 60's United would too, so the principles from then would definitely be applicable today IMO.

 

[el3mel]

Som people have short memoris. Remember this ?

 

[the_irish123]

We need a young manager without a huge name. Like Gracia.

 

[Smores]

Wow. I think you have a very short memory if you think we are worse than under Van Gaal. Especially his last season.

We generally stuck to the game plan and played with control? What game plan passing the ball between the back 4 for 90 minutes. If you are doing this for the majority of the game it’s easy to look like your in control.

If you think the entertainment under Jose is significantly worse than under Van Gaal I question what sort of football you class as entertainment. Van Gaal was literally putting fans to sleep. Wtf come on man.

I am not saying Jose is a perfect fit for us and I do think he should leave at the end of the season. But what you said in your post is ridiculous to say the least.

He's just another philosophy supporter who was irked by LvGs sacking. I thought they'd all gone into hiding but its amusing they've now come out the woodwork to fight LvGs corner.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

He's just another philosophy supporter who was irked by LvGs sacking. I thought they'd all gone into hiding but its amusing they've now come out the woodwork to fight LvGs corner.

No - come out to fight Jose's face.

Jose was the wrong man to come after LVG. Whilst LVG could not get the best out of a club that had good positioning & good ball control - does not mean that club under a different manager couldn't change that at make deadly. That's what we were expecting * not LVG to win us a title but by a different manager adding his own ethos of risky football in to a team that was controlling the ball & teams in general. A manager like pep could come & pick the players he deemed was good enough & go on a spending spree to add more to those players.

Instead we get hooof ball yayyy with logs upfront.

 

[Treble]

LVG's biggest mistake was Rooney. To rely on a massively declined Rooney up front was a recipe for a disaster. Had LVG (invested in) a top striker like Zlatan/Lukaku, his points total wouldn't be worse than Jose's. And Jose had also Pogba and Matic in midfiled last season.

Basically, LVG was a failure in the transfer market whereas Jose is a failure in bringing the best out of his players.

 

[roonster09]

We are definitely not worse than under LvG. Two games lost doesn't change that. His second season was horrendous.

Exactly. His second season was a disaster. I don't know how Van Gaal survived from Oct - Jan.

Our record from Oct to Jan end was , played 23 games in all competitions. Won 8, lost 7, drew 7 games. That's a very poor record.

We scored 24 goals in that time and conceded 20 goals.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

LVG's biggest mistake was Rooney. To rely on a massively declined Rooney up front was a recipe for a disaster. Had LVG (invested in) a top striker like Zlatan/Lukaku, his points total wouldn't be worse than Jose's. And Jose had also Pogba and Matic in midfiled last season.

Basically, LVG was a failure in the transfer market whereas Jose is a failure in bringing the best out of his players.

And that's why we say that LVG with a director of football would have been saucy.

LVG's reliance on Rooney was not because he was the striker - but because he goes about changing everything at the club but keeping the Captain the same to keep a level of stability. It's a mistake & he should have let him go - but he let rvp, Nani, vidic Rio evra and so much go but kept Rooney due to him being the captain.

He rearranged the club leaving a blank slate with some younger players allowing a manager after him to implement his own style & tactics - if someone had picked the players for him; things would have been better short term under him. If someone who had used possession football came after him - we would be better off than what we are now.

 

[Smores]

No - come out to fight Jose's face.

Jose was the wrong man to come after LVG. Whilst LVG could not get the best out of a club that had good positioning & good ball control - does not mean that club under a different manager couldn't change that at make deadly. That's what we were expecting * not LVG to win us a title but by a different manager adding his own ethos of risky football in to a team that was controlling the ball & teams in general. A manager like pep could come & pick the players he deemed was good enough & go on a spending spree to add more to those players.

Instead we get hooof ball yayyy with logs upfront.

Yeah damn Jose if only he's built on the great ones foundations

We didn't control teams, they largely let us keep the ball as they knew we were no threat.

The nerve of some of you moaners openly praising LvG is galling.

 

[Miscemayl]

We're now worse.

We're actually at that point we were under Moyes when we'd lose games we actually do alright in, conceding lots of goals while looking completely chaotic. It's at this point you can't even point to where the problem is anymore. There's that many.

Even when we would struggle to create chances under Van Gaal, we generally stuck to the game plan and played with control.

We're significantly worse and (in terms of entertainment) have been for over a year now. I've argued this before and stick to my convictions.

Wow, do you actually remember the LVG days?

Saying we are significant worse entertainment wise is just baffling.

 

[Kapardin]

Wow, do you actually remember the LVG days?

Saying we are significant worse entertainment wise is just baffling.

I'd say Jose's first season was entertaining. We were in the hunt for 4th till April and active in 3 cups till Feb, and going on to win two of them. Despite the tumescent football in the second half of the season, the thrill of going deep into the cup competitions was there. Better than LvG's seasons for sure.

Second season was a borefest, even some of the 4-0s when we just scored in the final phase of the game. Interspersed with some humiliating defeats like the Watford away game, but overall effective. On par with LvG's first season.

This season so far has been as bad as the second half of LvG's final season with us.

I'd say, not much of a difference between Jose and LvG apart from results - even then Jose has 2 cups to LvG's 1 and both finished once in top 4 and once out of it. So, not even a great difference results-wise. And that's not a pretty picture.

 

[Miscemayl]

I'd say Jose's first season was entertaining. We were in the hunt for 4th till April and active in 3 cups till Feb, and going on to win two of them. Despite the tumescent football in the second half of the season, the thrill of going deep into the cup competitions was there. Better than LvG's seasons for sure.

Second season was a borefest, even some of the 4-0s when we just scored in the final phase of the game. Interspersed with some humiliating defeats like the Watford away game, but overall effective. On par with LvG's first season.

This season so far has been as bad as the second half of LvG's final season with us.

I'd say, not much of a difference between Jose and LvG apart from results - even then Jose has 2 cups to LvG's 1 and both finished once in top 4 and once out of it. So, not even a great difference results-wise. And that's not a pretty picture.

You do remember this right?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...is-van-Gaal-s-insipid-football-laid-bare.html

 

[Kapardin]

You do remember this right?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...is-van-Gaal-s-insipid-football-laid-bare.html

Yes, but Sevilla last season, now Brighton and Spurs so far this season were equally dire in another way. Another kind of turd, but it is still turd.

 

[el3mel]

 

[Zlatattack]

I really don't think we have significantly improved: LvG: 136 points over the course of two seasons / Mourinho: 150 points over the course of 2 seasons.

I don't know what to make of that. It doesn't reflect the whole position, like league position, or potential of squad (I think we have better players now than we did then). Under Jose I think it's fair to say the improvement has not been significant.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I don't know what to make of that. It doesn't reflect the whole position, like league position, or potential of squad (I think we have better players now than we did then). Under Jose I think it's fair to say the improvement has not been significant.

There's not much to make of it, really. But some are using our points total from last season as a sign of progression. The thing is, as a singular statistic, it might make it look like we've made huge progress since LvG left, but we really haven't. I certainly think there are improvements - it was hard to do any worse than LvG done in his last season - but the improvements aren't significant or anything like it.

 

[Treble]

Much depends on this season. If we finish without a big trophey and outside top 4, then the answer to the OP question would be No becasue we didn't win a big trophey in the first two seasons. Progress that terminates outside top 4 is no pogress, unless a big trophey was won.

 

[Minimalist]

And there’s similar stats to show how shambolic Mourinhos stuff is...just different stats/aspects. Chances created being the glaring one.

That’s the point, we haven’t really improved much. Not to justify the further investment he has (he has a way better squad than LVG).

 

[sugar_kane]

If we're going purely off stats then Mourinho's win % is much higher. 61.5% vs. 52.4% (which, assuming Wikipedia is correct, puts LVG lower than Moyes).

Out of all our managerial choices (none of which have been great) LVG was definitely the biggest feck up.

If we had no intention of moving to a possession based style of football (which I doubt that we did) then he shouldn't have been anywhere nearer the role.

Moyes was a mistake mainly because he didn't have the mentality to manage a club our size, which should have been spotted but wasn't.

 

[Minimalist]

If we're going purely off stats then Mourinho's win % is much higher. 61.5% vs. 52.4% (which, assuming Wikipedia is correct, puts LVG lower than Moyes).

Out of all our managerial choices (none of which have been great) LVG was definitely the biggest feck up.

If we had no intention of moving to a possession based style of football (which I doubt that we did) then he shouldn't have been anywhere nearer the role.

Moyes was a mistake mainly because he didn't have the mentality to manage a club our size, which should have been spotted but wasn't.

He spent another small fortune. Got players like Pogba, Miki, Lukaku in and we went from 4th and 5th to 6th and 2nd (although by a country mile from 1st), still playing prehistoric football.

*slow clap*

Hardly doing any better than minimum expectations are we? Or did you expect us to be finishing 6th or something? We sacked LVG because we wanted improvement.

 

[acnumber9]

I really don't think we have significantly improved: LvG: 136 points over the course of two seasons / Mourinho: 150 points over the course of 2 seasons.

Over the course of two seasons that’s fairly significant. We’ve also qualified for the Champions League both years under Mourinho, won more trophies, scored more goals and gone further in cup competitions. Mourinho has managed 20 more matches. He’s won every single one of those extra 20.

Mourinho didn’t have the benefit of no European Football distracting from league form in his first season. Despite this Van Gaal still only managed one point more than Mourinho’s worst season. Van Gaal didn’t have to compete with this Man City or a vastly improved Liverpool. In Van Gaal’s time Leicester won a league title.

 

[Grande]

Simple question.

What have we improved? What are we still struggling with?

How are we better than LVG?

To answer this question, we need to have a clear idea of ‘How good are we now?’.

As I don’t suppose it’s interesting to answer the question ‘Are we in better form now than in the last weeks before Van Gaal was sacked?’, I’ll look at the last season vs the last year under LVG.

I’ll not assess the quality of the work of JM vs LVG, just the quality of the team on evidence and personal evaluation.

The basic:

LVG : 19 w, 9 d, 10 l, 49-35 gd 66 p
JM : 25 w, 6 d, 7 l, 68-28 gd 81 p
LVG: won FA Cup final vs Palace, CL group stage (EL round of 16), LC round 4.
JM: lost FA Cup final vs Chelsea, CL round o 16, LC round 5.

Results wise, we are clearly better now in every measurable aspect, seen over a period of time. (If someone would say FA cup win indicate us being better at cup finals under LvG, I’d disagree. We’ve won 2 out of 3 finals under JM, and I find it very likely we’d have beaten Palace even before extra time had we met them in this year’s final).

Looking at the squad, looking forward:

GK: Equal. De Gea world top 3 then, and now. Romero same. Pereira/Grant small step ahead of Lindegaard/Henderson.

RB: Better. Darmian played most, Valencia/McNair a few. Valencia clearly better still, than Darmian, Dalot very likely more promising than McNair.

CB: Better. Smalling/Blind played most games, Jones and Rojo about half. S, R and J has neither progressed nor deteriorated. Bailly and Lindelöf clearly better looking forward than Blind as CB. Tuanzebe is better now as Cb.

LB: Better. Rojo/Blind/CBJ/Shaw (5 games) alternated. Young clearly better now than all these at LB. Jury out on Shaw after last season, looks better now though. Rojo still (bad) cover, and Dalot.

CMF: Better. Chop-and-change waning players (Rooney, Carrick, BFS) and limited players HErrera, Schneiderlein, Fella) then. Now: Matic waning less, Pogba better period, Fred probably better, Andreas improving, Fella arguably better now, Herrera stagnated (still ok).

LW: Better? Hm. Martial played better than Sanchez/Martial/Rashford does now, but was focal point of attack and scored 17 to Lukaku’s 27. Depay then. I’d say S/R/M is still better looking forward, but you could argue otherwise.

RW: Worse. Mata was much better then than now, Valencia meh backup. More to choose from now, but none as good as Mata then.

FW: Better. Rooney w Depay and Rashford backup (see Martial under LW). Lukaku much, much better than Rooney 2015/16. Rashford is (yes, he is) somewhat better now.

All in all, the squad is clearly better now, looking forward. Is it the standard we’re aiming for? As good as the money should indicate? That’s for another thread. But it is better in more than half the positions, worse in only one (max two, depending on how to assess Martial). Better now, and more potential.

Conclusion: we are a better team now.

Bonus question: Are we as enjoyable to watch? Subjective, but for me it’s simple. Half of the last year’s games has been as tumescent as 95% of 2015/16. A quarter has been better, and a quarter has been much better.

 

[Zlatattack]

If we're going purely off stats then Mourinho's win % is much higher. 61.5% vs. 52.4% (which, assuming Wikipedia is correct, puts LVG lower than Moyes).

Out of all our managerial choices (none of which have been great) LVG was definitely the biggest feck up.

If we had no intention of moving to a possession based style of football (which I doubt that we did) then he shouldn't have been anywhere nearer the role.

Moyes was a mistake mainly because he didn't have the mentality to manage a club our size, which should have been spotted but wasn't.

I wish we'd signed Klopp when the scouser did. I know it's fashionable to hate him because he's a tit, but I think he'd have at this stage got us in a much better position in terms of style of play and coaching, if not actual end product.

I supported signing Jose, I think I still do, but he's not delivered the goods yet.

 

[big rons sovereign]

Some of you have memory of a goldfish, maybe you need to replay November to December in 2015 to see how bad things were. We failed to get out of a group of PSV, CSKA and Wolfsburg. In December we failed to win a single game and scored 2 points out of possible 15. Not to mention the wide array of shit van Gaal bought during his tenure which to this date we are unable to get rid of and he did that while gutting our squad to that extent that we had to play likes of Tyler Blackett and Donald Love in the Premier League.

If Mourinho were to walk today, next manager would have a significantly better base to build his team. Van Gaal left behind nothing but shit.

I was at the psv game. Worst I've ever seen. Well, that or the city game the same season. We're nowhere near that bad yet, 3 games in shouldn't be a worry. If it's still as bad in say February then yeah we should panic.
It's obvious that the clown upstairs is causing problems really, id rather see the back of him than jose.

 

[Ekeke]

I didn't just claim. It's fact
EPL season total interceptions 2017/2018 for midfielders:


https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/interception

So you're talking about total, not the average amount per game. No surprise given he played so many games - 36. Just accumulation.

 

[VeevaVee]

We aren't worse. Last season was far better overall than anything under Moyes and LVG, and not just because of the league position.

I do question whether that was the peak of what Jose can do with us though.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

....
Once again, that number alone doesn't say whether he did or didnt do a good job protecting the defense. But since you claimed he was 2nd of the midfielders at the top 6 clubs, he's actually 3rd behind Kante and our own Ander.

Below are the season interception totals for 2017/2018 that I got from premierleague.com

As you can see Herrera is NOT ahead of Matic on the list.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

So you're talking about total, not the average amount per game. No surprise given he played so many games - 36. Just accumulation.

Accumulation my foot. Kante is not number 1 on the list just by 'accumulation' for example.


http://www2.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2017/2018/nemanja_matic/819/819/9284/38/p|premier_league/2017/2018/n$golo_kanté/819/819/14999/33/p|premier_league/2017/2018/fernandinho/819/819/4958/0/p|premier_league/2017/2018/eric_dier/819/819/15553/0/p|premier_league/2017/2018/granit_xhaka/819/819/2103/0/p#interceptions/blocks/tackles_won/aerial_duels_won#total

Per 90 minutes metrics amongst the top 6 he is second only Kante in interceptions


And this is compared to Herrera:

http://www2.squawka.com/comparison-...tions/blocks/tackles_won/aerial_duels_won#avg

Herrera still doesn't come out on top

 

[singhters]

LVG Record against the top teams was very good and we played very well it was against the lower teams where the problem was.

 

[Ekeke]

Accumulation my foot. Kante is not number 1 on the list just by 'accumulation' for example.


http://www2.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2017/2018/nemanja_matic/819/819/9284/38/p|premier_league/2017/2018/n$golo_kanté/819/819/14999/33/p|premier_league/2017/2018/fernandinho/819/819/4958/0/p|premier_league/2017/2018/eric_dier/819/819/15553/0/p|premier_league/2017/2018/granit_xhaka/819/819/2103/0/p#interceptions/blocks/tackles_won/aerial_duels_won#total

Per 90 minutes metrics amongst the top 6 he is second only to Matic in interceptions


And this is compared to Herrera:

http://www2.squawka.com/comparison-...tions/blocks/tackles_won/aerial_duels_won#avg

Herrera still doesn't come out on top

You are comparing someone who started 35 times out of 36 to someone who started 13 and came on as sub in 13 matches. Those 13 sub appearances with minimal minutes where he doesnt get to do a lot obviously change things greatly.

But if you compare what they do in full matches its the above.