Player Power

[Red_toad]

To emphasize on this point, Matteo Darmian reportedly makes 60,000 pounds a week.

That just explains what's wrong with this club.

We pay higher wages as Manchester is hardly a must live destination!

 

[Apokalips]

Fergie shielded us from a lot of the norms of the football World. He was an anomaly and we are just another club now.

Managers have been ousted by unhappy players at pretty much every single club and when it's such a contrary character as Mourinho it shouldn't be a shock to anyone.

You can't create chaos and negativity with your words as he has done and then complain about it. What did he expect when he publicly shows no faith or belief in his players? Common sense says they're going to lose confidence and find it hard to play for a guy that's waiting to dig them out.

 

[SAred]

So you are comparing two players that had vastly different roles but even then they have comparable amounts of tackle per games, McTominay had more interceptions but he always play with the game in front of him since he is deployed very deep, on the other end Pogba has more attacking duties that he executes at a fairly high level. The issue here is that you are comparing apple with oranges and try to draw conclusions on kiwis.

Also Pogba missed one game for other reasons than injuries and came in as a sub twice one of which was Carrick's last game as a player.

No the fact is Paul had his little hissy fit and Jose decided to replace him with Scott for a few games to see if he could get back to being the worlds bestest player ever.

 

[JPRouve]

No the fact is Paul had his little hissy fit and Jose decided to replace him with Scott for a few games to see if he could get back to being the worlds bestest player ever.

Pogba hasn't been replaced with Scott for a few games and it has nothing to do with your initial claim about Pogba not wanting defensive duties. The one bust up that we witnessed was against Spurs, you don't know what Mourinho said to Pogba and you don't know what Pogba responded, now based on Mourinho's comments we can assume that he thought Pogba or someone else made a mistake in covering the inside channel but if you are honest you will understand that it's simply a manager pointing to an isolated mistake not a player and a manager disagreeing about a role or a system in general.

And for what it's worth I do think that Pogba should have let it go and shouldn't have argued with Mourinho on the side line which most likely led to his benching the next game.

 

[Canagel]

What's happening now at United has been happening at other clubs for years. That's the reality. We just need to adapt and stop living in the past.

 

[DocRockter]

 

[Sing you a song]

1) Our CEO is a money man and as long as Pogba (and similar) are bringing in the marketing money, he's okay with the status quo.

2) Players make huge amounts of money, especially at a club like Man Utd. So it is extremely difficult to move on discontent players since they won't get the money offered here elsewhere. Hence, it's extremely hard to sack/sell them.
I think I read somewhere that Lingard makes more money than Asencio (someone correct me on this). We seem to be extremely bad at negotiating with agents regarding player salaries.

3) Sacking a manager is financially cheaper than sacking players. Although this gives rise to player power and significantly diminshes any coming manager's power, unfortunately a money man CEO will always make this decision.

The money man CEO needs to realise that another few years away from the top table will seriously hit our commercial side.Sponsors like to be linked with winners not also rans

 

[SAred]

Pogba hasn't been replaced with Scott for a few games and it has nothing to do with your initial claim about Pogba not wanting defensive duties. The one bust up that we witnessed was against Spurs, you don't know what Mourinho said to Pogba and you don't know what Pogba responded, now based on Mourinho's comments we can assume that he thought Pogba or someone else made a mistake in covering the inside channel but if you are honest you will understand that it's simply a manager pointing to an isolated mistake not a player and a manager disagreeing about a role or a system in general.

And for what it's worth I do think that Pogba should have let it go and shouldn't have argued with Mourinho on the side line which most likely led to his benching the next game.

There is your answer he should of let it go and now this season it has taken a turn for the worse. Pogba needs to start playing for the team under Jose whether he likes it or not and not keep having these sulky moments. He is not the manager Jose is and he does need to start to learn that.

 

[SAred]

So true Hollyoway madman hehe.

 

[minoo-utd]

What's happening now at United has been happening at other clubs for years. That's the reality. We just need to adapt and stop living in the past.

Can you?

 

[Raees]

People keep bringing Sir Alex into it but he was tough but ultimately fair. He was very rarely vindictive and mean just for the sake of it and even when he was, it was usually out of character rather than his default persona.

Players wanted to run through walls for him, even his many list of rejects speak so highly of the man. Look at how the entire world stood still when he fell ill - he was a great man first and foremost before we even get to the part that he wasn’t an undeniably great manager imo the greatest (if we take tactical acumen out of the equation).

Player power is often spoken about like it’s so horrendous but at top clubs and the most successful ones these days - players can be trusted to have a huge say over the running of the club but there does need to be a balance with the manager needing to have the final say. The best way to achieve this is to have a harmony of vision between what the manager wants to achieve, his methods and what the players want to achieve. When there is discordance like we see at United, and it’s not just one player unhappy but an entire squad - and not to mention 70% of the fanbase are unhappy with your methods in an ideal world (even if out of loyalty they will support you) then you’re on a hiding to nothing and arguing that player power has done you in is a bullshit argument.

What makes a leader is the ability to inspire others to their best and make them want to follow your lead. The moment a group of players have stopped wanting to follow you is basically evidence that you have lost your ability to lead that particular group of players and in Jose case this has happened on a number of occasions now - so it’s getting to the point he’s lost his ability to lead any group of players fullstop.

What’s going on at United now is not down to spoilt players running the roost. It’s players making a stand that these are horrible working conditions and they want to see change. We should be in full support of them because whether or not some of them are upto playing for this club or not - we can all agree that the environment they’re working in right now is not conducive to success or happiness. Most of us would hate to be in a working environment where the manager constantly berates the workers in public even when it is clear that at times he or she is to blame for a certain mishap. It eventually grates on all involved.

Where player power is dangerous is when you have a situation like Wayne Rooney. For both England and United, we had a man here who was past his prime and a bad role model, ruling the roost and ensuring his inclusion - and no one could say anything even the media. He basically held club and country ransom for many years.

The current situation is not equivalent to that set of facts. It’s just players desperate to work in better conditions which is a reasonable request.

 

[Adisa]

There is no club and has never been a club not subject to player power of some sort.
If the players connived to get rid of Sir Alex Ferguson at any point, they would have succeeded.
Great managers know how to avoid that situation by treating players in a way that avoids conflict or spotting the troublemakers early, before it becomes terminal. In ideal situations, managers should combine both.
Players are human beings. The idea they can give their all, regardless of how they feel they are being treated by a manager is fanciful. This is why character of a manager is very important .

 

[KirkDuyt]

Erm what? As far as I know he just left. Refused to sign the contract we had put out on the table, and signed one with Juventus instead.

Didn't he demand playtime in his new contract or something?

 

[KirkDuyt]

actually many support because its their local club, irrespective of the quality of the players. some fans actually support the team

The super extremely huge majority dont'support their local team. I think for clubs like Real, United, Barcelona etc the local fans make up about 0.01% of the fanbase.

 

[Buster15]

We pay higher wages as Manchester is hardly a must live destination!

It should not always be about the money but regrettably nowadays it is.

We are talking about elite athletes (or so they should be) who are incredibly fortunate not just to be a football player but to play for the biggest club in the world.

Now, why should they need more motivation than that.

Playerpower is akin to mutiny and cannot be tolerated at any level or for any reason.

We as a team need fighters who are prepared to do whatever it takes to achieve success. If you are not prepared to do that then bugger off and play for someone else.

 

[JPRouve]

There is your answer he should of let it go and now this season it has taken a turn for the worse. Pogba needs to start playing for the team under Jose whether he likes it or not and not keep having these sulky moments. He is not the manager Jose is and he does need to start to learn that.

That's not my answer, you made a narrative up and you are using it to pretend that Pogba hasn't played for the team when he clearly did which is why he was a starter for almost every games after that and he was by far our best player too. Pogba has character and while he should sometimes put it aside, that's not a bad thing and should never be interpreted as anything else than character, some fans are way too dramatic, they want to make a meal out of every little things that happens.
Pogba is the least of our issues, he is actually one of the players that shows the character that you would expect from a top player, he wouldn't be out of place in the best teams when it comes to his pride and character, if you think that he likes to lose, that he likes to be ridiculed for the performances of the team you are mistaken, we can criticize the way he expresses it but one thing that Pogba has never been accused of is being dishonest and not being a team player, that narrative only exists at United among certain people who for some reason wants to target the only player that is still asking for more and better, he also happens to be our best and more consistent player. The other cowards hide behind their teammates, Shaw is the only other player to take responsibilities on the field.

And because I know that people will pick on it, yes Pogba should be more consistent but he is the most consistent player that we have, he is still the best performer that we have. That reality should push people to focus on everyone but him because his teammates are hiding behind him, the manager is hiding behind him and we expect to see him take it with a smile.

 

[blue blue]

This isn't just about finances and money man. Replacing 1 employee is easier than replacing 15. Especially when said employee can be replaced at any time, while the other can only be replaced within restricted windows, and generally doesn't involve negotiating with third parties. And then there's the inherent value of team vs manager. Finally, there is cost

Maybe there's a case for stopping transfer windows.

 

[sunama]

If that's how you go about constructing your argument then I can't take it seriously. I don't even agree with your premise that you just submit to whoever is above you in the hierarchy of power. You got huge abuses of power in every walk of life (government, the church, school etc...) In the context of a football club and this specific situation...Jose Mourinho has wracked up a litany of fireable offenses outside of on-the-field performance. Talking down the 'heritage' of the club, continually going public about his 'lists' and taking digs at the scouting department (that is airing the dirty laundry).

Attitude reflects leadership. While Woodward is a horrendous CEO, Mourinho's MUN tenure has been a classic example of self-preservation. If JM is captaining the ship, who the hell wants to follow someone who gives no second thought to manufacturing public spats with players, using them as pawns in his narcissistic quest for 'Respect'. Nah, the man is toxic. You can make a chain of command argument when the motives are pure and the leader is selfless. But that's not the case here.

I can see that your hatred for Jose has overwhelmed your ability to debate this point, fairly.

 

[Marcky411]

Player Power - How does it even come to this.

If your not happy with your boss you need to just grin and bare it until you find alternative employment, its life. But here we have players downing down tools because of dislike for there boss, surely there has to be some form of punishment that can be handed out to those players that are causing issues. This Pogba / Jose feud should never of been made public and if the player makes it public he is the one to get punished. How are these players determining what goes on in the clubs they represent.

If the manager cant control the situation then others higher up like Woodward need to step in. The club is paying these lot a great deal of money to put a good shift in but the little snowflakes are acting like kids. Where is a Roy Keane when you need one.

Firstly I think you are comparing Apples and Oranges here. In my job if I am unhappy with my boss I can just grin and bare it as you say but at the same time I can look for other employment and once found give one month's notice and I am gone. Football players do not have these luxuries, they are bound by contract for the years they signed for and if the club doesn't want to sell them, then they will have to sit out their time with the club they signed at.
The second point is that footballers are in the limelight continually, so if players aren't performing to the levels they should or can, due to the manager's style of play/tactics or personality clashes, this in itself is harming the players chances of future employment and definitely their value in the market. We all know a player has a peak period of so many years to be at the top of their game, therefore players don't have the luxury to sit around for a couple of years to then move onto a club with a manager that suites their style of play and can bring the best out in them.

Getting back to your point about punishment to be handed out, there is such a thing, they can drop the player from the team and fine him so many weeks pay. The situation with Pogba/Jose should never have gone public but what punishment would you suggest for the manager that continually makes it public instead of handling things behind closed doors, as we have so often witnessed from Jose. He is the first to criticize the club, players, referees etc in the media, never accepting any blame for his own misjudgments or failings.

I personally think that player power has gotten worse through the years but that was to be expected, seeing the value of players has rising beyond anyone's expectations and today players are not only bought for their footballing skills but also for their marketing value. The Fergie days when you just sacked a player if they got out of line are gone, maybe if the issue is concerning only one player but as soon as you have a couple of players not getting on with the manager, then it is always better and cheaper for clubs to sack the manager.

 

[Masterman]

If we want the club to be healthy we can't second guess what the guy that was hired to run the football team is doing. You can't have results if you keep undermining.

Yeah except no player is undermining Mourinho. Mourinho is undermining himself by starting unnecessary feuds and throwing his players under the bus to save his skin. It's one thing for 1-2 players to be angry at the manager, those players should either get along with the program or get the freak out of the club. But when the entire squad has lost faith in the manager what choice is there but to blame the manager?

 

[Marcky411]

I totally agree

I would have fired mourinho the night he came out with that complete bullshit when he lost to Sevilla, who he thinks he is? Well he’s a relic for one thing. Roy Keanes quotes towards the players prime Keane this is, would make Pogba’s quotes seem like a tea party which pogba said was true. The same narcissistic Mourinho who played Park the bus football playing three of the most immobile uncreative midfielders against West Ham, moans martial is not defending enough, when he had three defensive minded midfielders.

We got a board who are spineless, gutless, to busy counting their penny’s than what needs to be done, by getting this lunatic out of our club. Jose is the symptoms of a greater problem, but he still needs to go. He’s become so toxic, the gas has got to a point where it’s a fire hazard. If chelsea listened to Jose back in December 2015, there be no hazard at Chelsea

This is Jose mourinho’s vision for united, long ball park the bus football with Valencia, smalling, Jones, Young, matic, mctommney, fellaini, a big part of that unit, he got lucky shaw started getting back to where he was, because he was picking fights with shaw

Fully agree with your quote, the only thing I would like to add in the case of Shaw, what people don't realize is that Shaw has not signed a new contract and according to him will only consider signing a new contract if he deems himself good enough for UTD. Which we all know is bullshit, normally players would be to keen to sign for UTD. End result Shaw walks at the end of this season for free.

 

[SAred]

Firstly I think you are comparing Apples and Oranges here. In my job if I am unhappy with my boss I can just grin and bare it as you say but at the same time I can look for other employment and once found give one month's notice and I am gone. Football players do not have these luxuries, they are bound by contract for the years they signed for and if the club doesn't want to sell them, then they will have to sit out their time with the club they signed at.
The second point is that footballers are in the limelight continually, so if players aren't performing to the levels they should or can, due to the manager's style of play/tactics or personality clashes, this in itself is harming the players chances of future employment and definitely their value in the market. We all know a player has a peak period of so many years to be at the top of their game, therefore players don't have the luxury to sit around for a couple of years to then move onto a club with a manager that suites their style of play and can bring the best out in them.

Getting back to your point about punishment to be handed out, there is such a thing, they can drop the player from the team and fine him so many weeks pay. The situation with Pogba/Jose should never have gone public but what punishment would you suggest for the manager that continually makes it public instead of handling things behind closed doors, as we have so often witnessed from Jose. He is the first to criticize the club, players, referees etc in the media, never accepting any blame for his own misjudgments or failings.

I personally think that player power has gotten worse through the years but that was to be expected, seeing the value of players has rising beyond anyone's expectations and today players are not only bought for their footballing skills but also for their marketing value. The Fergie days when you just sacked a player if they got out of line are gone, maybe if the issue is concerning only one player but as soon as you have a couple of players not getting on with the manager, then it is always better and cheaper for clubs to sack the manager.

They are bound with contracts for years , well that is until that player sticks a transfer request in. It maybe not be a month's notice but its hardly going to run the length of the contract. Pogba was signed by Jose he knew Jose style and knew what he was getting into. Not saying I agree with the way Jose handles matters but certainly don't agree with this power play that certain players are doing over there manager.

 

[Minimalist]

What I've learned recently is that a lot of people on the Caf think our players are literally doing feck all on purpose. That provided we pay them a salary, they should be brilliant on the pitch no matter what.

Also the logic they're using pretty much negates the requirement for a manager in the first place. So do we need a manager or not?

These are human beings - wouldn't hurt to remember that.

Then again, if you're backing Jose Mourinho or remotely relate to him you obviously must be lacking in empathy to start with.

 

[Marcky411]

He is managing the team in his way, don't sign for Jose if you don't want to put your defensive duties in. That is his style it is up to Jose to change it not the players to force the issue. He is the manager and he is in charge.

True, but what about all the players UTD already had when he signed, especially the old Fergie players and who knows what hot air they were blowing up the player's @rse to get them to sign.

 

[SAred]

What I've learned recently is that a lot of people on the Caf think our players are literally doing feck all on purpose. That provided we pay them a salary, they should be brilliant on the pitch no matter what.

Also the logic they're using pretty much negates the requirement for a manager in the first place. So do we need a manager or not?

These are human beings - wouldn't hurt to remember that.

Then again, if you're backing Jose Mourinho or remotely relate to him you obviously must be lacking in empathy to start with.

If your backing Jose you must be lacking empathy to start with, your kidding right what has Jose done that is so terrible did he forget a birthday cake for Pogba birthday. Jose is no angel and says alot of stupid things but he is hardly whipping the players after hours. Lack empathy come on mate.

 

[SAred]

True, but what about all the players UTD already had when he signed, especially the old Fergie players and who knows what hot air they were blowing up the player's @rse to get them to sign.

Those players need to adapt to the new bosses ways or stick a transfer request in.

 

[Slevs]

If your backing Jose you must be lacking empathy to start with, your kidding right what has Jose done that is so terrible did he forget a birthday cake for Pogba birthday. Jose is no angel and says alot of stupid things but he is hardly whipping the players after hours. Lack empathy come on mate.

Man don't bother, they're blinded by hate.

 

[Minimalist]

If your backing Jose you must be lacking empathy to start with, your kidding right what has Jose done that is so terrible did he forget a birthday cake for Pogba birthday. Jose is no angel and says alot of stupid things but he is hardly whipping the players after hours. Lack empathy come on mate.

Man don't bother, they're blinded by hate.

Really couldn't care less what you think. He's a cock. Was and always will be. You're very much in the minority if you think he comes across as a caring and personable individual but feel free to think that way.

We really scrapped the barrel when we hired someone of his personality. Shame I have to admit I was for it at the time. But that's what desperation does to you.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

The thing is if your top of the tree and the place where players wanna stay you don’t really care, when your not it’s fecking annoying. The main problem is there is simply too much money in football, both transfers and wages, how people think playing a person, sportsman or not £100s of thousands a fecking week is in any way moral or rright is beyond me. Problem is we have now crossed the line and the problem will only get worse.

 

[Marcky411]

They are bound with contracts for years , well that is until that player sticks a transfer request in. It maybe not be a month's notice but its hardly going to run the length of the contract. Pogba was signed by Jose he knew Jose style and knew what he was getting into. Not saying I agree with the way Jose handles matters but certainly don't agree with this power play that certain players are doing over there manager.

As we both know a transfer request doesn't automatically guarantee the player can now leave, the club is the one that sets the price, e.g Rojo en Darmian this past transfer window.

 

[flappyjay]

May be it's just me but I don't think our players gave up even Under Moyes or Van Gaal may be they weren't simply good enough just like managers they were playing under but they did try their best it's only Mourinho's reign where it seems they have given up just a thought may be it's the manager not the players.

They won the f.a cup with lvg and lost out on top 4 with goal difference, it didn't look like players downed tools to me.

 

[gajender]

They won the f.a cup with lvg and lost out on top 4 with goal difference, it didn't look like players downed tools to me.

That's exactly my point our players didn't give up or downed tools under Van Gaal though I said it seems they have given up under Mourinho but I think it's more the case of Mourinho's strange tactics and putting unbalanced lineups without any proper plan causing team to look more disjointed and uninterested than usual.

 

[Siorac]

If your not happy with your boss you need to just grin and bare it until you find alternative employment, its life.

That's a terrible attitude to have in a job. Decent companies actively encourage their employees to give feedback about their boss so that a poorly performing manager does not cause the loss of valuable employees.

 

[SAred]

That's a terrible attitude to have in a job. Decent companies actively encourage their employees to give feedback about their boss so that a poorly performing manager does not cause the loss of valuable employees.

Does not work to well in a football team though.

 

[Fergietime@99]

Player power is a facet of today's game which cannot be done away with due to the high transfer fees and wages thrown around. The only plausible solution is to not sign players like di maria and Pogba who do not have the character to play for the club

 

[Marcky411]

He is managing the team in his way, don't sign for Jose if you don't want to put your defensive duties in. That is his style it is up to Jose to change it not the players to force the issue. He is the manager and he is in charge.

I have been reading your posts on this issue and by the sound of things you still back Jose, which obviously you are entitled to. The only thing I think you are forgetting is that even those spoilt brats on huge weekly wages are human beings too, with emotions etc.
Jose himself has created this toxic environment, it is as clear as day he has his favourites who cannot do wrong in his eyes even when they are performing badly, he finds a way to praise them in the press and those players get to play week in week out. The players he likes less, due to maybe personality differences or what he might feel is attitude get treated completely different. One bad performance when they do get an opportunity to play results in being benched for weeks or not selected at all. Not only that Jose takes every opportunity to belittle them in the press, even if the criticism is just or not. Now if Jose can do this to them in the media can you image what he could be like behind closed doors. A good e.g of this is Pereira, he was our best player on tour, Jose took this AM and converted him into a CDM, in that new role Pereira performed his duties exemplary, yet for some unknown reason he has been bench, not getting a minute's playing time and has been left completely out of the team on several occasions.
Now with all this happening and who knows what happens behind closed doors, I can imagine that players are not motivated to give him their 110% in games.

 

[JPRouve]

Does not work to well in a football team though.

It actually works very well, managers that do a good work have the full backing of their players, no matter what style or personality they have. Those managers even manage to change and influence players beyond football.

 

[Sky1981]

That's a terrible attitude to have in a job. Decent companies actively encourage their employees to give feedback about their boss so that a poorly performing manager does not cause the loss of valuable employees.

You have to give the benefit of doubt first though. Otherwise the next young unproven manager comes in and they disrespect him again because they think his method isn't working.

Especially when the manager brought in with a glittering cv. If jose told you to play his way you should play his way. He has merit the job. They havent.

 

[#07]

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[SAred]

It actually works very well, managers that do a good work have the full backing of their players, no matter what style or personality they have. Those managers even manage to change and influence players beyond football.

How will it work well in this situation Paul v Jose. Or how does it work well if a manager has his way of thinking and the players or certain players have theirs.