The theory that Jose Mourinho doesn’t ‘allow’ our players to attack...

[MackRobinson]

Biggest nonsense in my opinion. The likes of Martial, Mata, Rashford and co not showing form because JM doesn’t ‘let them off the leash’. Like, are we just making up facts now?

Yesterday is no testament to an ideal normality. We should NOT typically line up with just one-centre half, Lukaku, Mata, Sanchez, Martial, Fellaini, Pogba on at the same time. That doesn’t mean anything else is negative or defensive.

It’s such a lazy narrative, one of many tbh. Don’t get me wrong, we are not a great attacking side by any stretch, but we are definitely a team that TRIES to attack. We just do it poorly. Players have poor movement, control, decision making, passing etc. Full- backs do attack. Valencia is just useless when he does, for example.

We do line up more cautiously against the bigger sides, which is as much common sense than anything else, but in most games, we definitely try to attack.

You are arguing semantics and it comes across as a really poor defense of Mourinho. A lot of posters may talk in hyperbole ("allowing" players to attack) but the main point is the United's attack is disjointed, slow, and ineffective. I honestly don't even understand why you're trying to make that distrinction between "not being allowed to attack" and "having a poor attack"

Look at the team selection vs Newcastle. He plays cautiously against most teams period. Starting McTominay and Matic in midfield vs arguably the worst team in the league is borderline criminal.

 

[acnumber9]

Firstly, Mourinho is not an attacking manager. All the metrics confirm that we don't push forward in numbers the way our rivals do.

Secondly, the fact that the implementation of whatever our attacking plan is supposed to be, is a reflection of the poor coaching and management of man in charge. "Players have poor touch, vision yada yada". It's his team. He's failing with his team. The excuses afforded to Mourinho are laughable.

No more so than the excuses offered to players for not moving. Yes Mourinho is a defensive manager, I doubt many would argue that. Do you think he really tells them not to work as hard as other teams or not make off the ball moves?

 

[Castia]

He sets his teams up to defend first. He expects his wingers to be like wing backs when the opponents have the ball, they are ordered to defend.

Same with Hazard at Chelsea and Ronaldo at Madrid its fecking awful.

 

[Rozay]

You are arguing semantics and it comes across as a really poor defense of Mourinho. A lot of posters may talk in hyperbole ("allowing" players to attack) but the main point is the United's attack is disjointed, slow, and ineffective. I honestly don't even understand why you're trying to make that distrinction between "not being allowed to attack" and "having a poor attack"

Look at the team selection vs Newcastle. He plays cautiously against most teams period. Starting McTominay and Matic in midfield vs arguably the worst team in the league is borderline criminal.

Both are different problems that require different solutions, one a lot easier than the other too.

Therefore, probably wise we are fixing the right problem.

 

[LARulz]

The thing I don't think he does is let people with little defensive discipline express themselves otherwise. He still expects a defensive shit from everyone. That is fine, but not if it limits them. Ferguson used to allow these types of players a lot more freedom, whilst the others did the extra work. But he clearly expected the ones he gave freedom to to perform weekly and diver the goods.

Players like Lukaku, Lingard will put in a shift. In which case, he should allow certain other players more freedom but demand they perform at the right end of the pitch for them. It seems to me he expects everyone to do the same which works for some but really hampers others as you do not get them performing to the best of their abilities

 

[Rozay]

He sets his teams up to defend first. He expects his wingers to be like wing backs when the opponents have the ball, they are ordered to defend.

Same with Hazard at Chelsea and Ronaldo at Madrid its fecking awful.

So because Rashford or Sanchez are expected to not allow their full back to get doubled up on, they are now incapable of passing or dribbling effectively?

What exactly are we even saying?

 

[MackRobinson]

Both are different problems that require different solutions, one a lot easier than the other too.

Therefore, probably wise we are fixing the right problem.

Both are the same thing. The former is hyperbole, the latter is the actual issue. The latter issue won't be fixed under Jose.

You're arguing semantics

 

[Rozay]

Both are the same thing. The former is hyperbole, the latter is the actual issue. The latter issue won't be fixed under Jose.

You're arguing semantics

In which case we are in agreement, yet you feel particularly argumentative this fine Sunday afternoon!

 

[Mainoldo]

Those players have done some job scoring goals from their own halves then. Don’t let pesky facts get in the way of an incoherent ramble.

Attacking player would rather not have to do any defending isn’t the most shocking statement I’ve ever heard. Bye.

Mate stop kidding yourself. Go have a coke and watch Liverpool vs City. Managed by two attacking coaches, where full backs are allowed to overlap and average players like Milner and Sterling can look the bee’s knee’s.

 

[MadDogg]

Again, by saying Mourinho doesn’t restrict us offensively doesn’t mean I think he is offensively effective. The proof is in the pudding on that front.

But the simple, thoughtless word to throw out about our inability to score a lot of goals is ‘defensive’. The ‘experts’ love to trot it out, and it has become his buzzword. By continually saying ‘he just needs to let them attack’, it actually exonerates him from his REAL failing, which is having an effective plan from an offensive perspective. Again, that’s not the same as ‘defensive’. He’s just (typically)’ better at organising a defence than he is an attack, just like Klopp has been (over the years) better at organising an attack than he is at organising a defence. It would still be moronic to claim that he places less value on keeping goals out, however.

I remember the upturn in Shaw’s performances. Many on the caf simplified it as being ‘what happens when JM lets his full back go forward’. Again, it is this type of theory I have issue with. Firstly, it’s a lie, Young and Valencia got forward plenty last season, and secondly, it again implies that Jose actually DOES know how to get our team to attack effectively, if he wants. THAT is what there is no evidence of. Him playing one defender yesterday is NOT the right way to line up if we want to score goals, and our formation was not too defensive in the first half either. We were not struggling due to having no forwards on the pitch, we are just clueless and devoid of ideas in attack.

There is another modern media created implication that it is a negative to be able to defend well, and place value on it. That is also nonsense. We have had as good a defensive record as any team over the last few years. We should not be made to feel dirty or ashamed of that. In fact, we should be proud to defend well. We just need to be far, far better in attack. 2 seasons ago, we drew about 10 games, battering teams, having 25 attempts on goal and only conceding 1 or 2 chances. We ended those games level.

We are a very poor attacking team, but not because our players really want to go out and score goals but Jose won’t let them. Our forwards either miss sitters, cannot dribble effectively (not because they don’t try due to instruction, Rashford actually tries and runs the ball out of play. He is allowed to play well, he just doesn’t), can’t control the ball and have poor movement. They need better coaching in this area for sure, I don’t deny that, but the ‘defensive first’ thing I don’t buy, except for a select few games where Again, any manager with any sense would respect the attacking threat the opposition pose. Arsenal Wenger was a manager who placed no importance on the attacking ability of his opponent, and that is NOT the right way to play football. He was a poor manager for years for this reason.

I agree with some of what you say, but I think you go too far the other way.

Particularly this season, Mourinho is lining up with terribly unbalanced midfields that are obviously focused purely on stopping the opposition rather than creating things ourselves. Playing both Matic and McTominay in central midfield when we are at home against Newcastle? Absolutely ridiculous.

Likewise, Mourinho's tactics of not pressing high and instead falling back deep every time the opposition have the ball means that our attacking players generally have to pick up the ball far deeper than what most other teams do. The opposition then find it much easier to defend them than what they would if we more regularly won the ball higher up the pitch.

All this then hurts the morale and confidence of our attackers (while actually boosting the morale and confidence of our opposition), making them less likely to do well when they do get the chance to attack.

 

[arthurka]

Good points. We're very "lazy" in attack. Minimal movement, our attacking players want the pass on their feet and very seldom run in channels, overlaps are rare. We're extremely lazy.

What worries me is our lack of attacking pattern , running for the sake of it really isnt the way to go. But we seem to run for the sake of running but never as a collective movement . Watching Lukaku dragging his ass around the park really isnt attacking .

 

[DomesticTadpole]

What worries me is our lack of attacking pattern , running for the sake of it really isnt the way to go. But we seem to run for the sake of running but never as a collective movement . Watching Lukaku dragging his ass around the park really isnt attacking .

It could be that these forwards are used to being coached and now are not being coached. When they go away internationally they are being coached again.

 

[Castia]

So because Rashford or Sanchez are expected to not allow their full back to get doubled up on, they are now incapable of passing or dribbling effectively?

What exactly are we even saying?

Who's mentioning the passing or general play? I'm just talking about the tactics/gameplan going into every game.

There's helping the full back and then what we do and basically play 2 fullbacks on either side.

 

[arthurka]

It could be that these forwards are used to being coached and now are not being coached. When they go away internationally they are being coached again.

Watch Lukaku turn it on again for Belgium .. There is something fundamentally wrong with our attacking.

 

[Rozay]

I agree with some of what you say, but I think you go too far the other way.

Particularly this season, Mourinho is lining up with terribly unbalanced midfields that are obviously focused purely on stopping the opposition rather than creating things ourselves. Playing both Matic and McTominay in central midfield when we are at home against Newcastle? Absolutely ridiculous.

Likewise, Mourinho's tactics of not pressing high and instead falling back deep every time the opposition have the ball means that our attacking players generally have to pick up the ball far deeper than what most other teams do. The opposition then find it much easier to defend them than what they would if we more regularly won the ball higher up the pitch.

All this then hurts the morale and confidence of our attackers (while actually boosting the morale and confidence of our opposition), making them less likely to do well when they do get the chance to attack.

Think those are fair points.

Regarding midfield selection, Mourinho started this season (and last 2 seasons) with an ‘offensive’ midfield. He had Fred in the team, but nobody wants to see his team go and get smashed by Brighton. Balance is always key, and the reality is we had a much better balance with Fellaini. To call it ‘defensive’ is simple. It gave us greater control, which helped us at both ends.

Remember, defending well is important in football!

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Watch Lukaku turn it on again for Belgium .. There is something fundamentally wrong with our attacking.

He will. Think he is more relaxed there as well.

 

[Mainoldo]

Watch Lukaku turn it on again for Belgium .. There is something fundamentally wrong with our attacking.

It’s the players! They should be able to play under any manager, he doesn’t control the ball for them. If he can do it for Martinez he can do it for Mourinho lol.

I get so fed up of these comments I’ve actually converted myself. Seriously though he’ll probably score a hattrick even with his baggy touch.

 

[Rozay]

Who's mentioning the passing or general play? I'm just talking about the tactics/gameplan going into every game.

There's helping the full back and then what we do and basically play 2 fullbacks on either side.

I am, because this is what we are doing wrong. Asking wide players to be defensively responsible is not wrong, it’s common sense.

 

[roseguy64]

100% sure. I think yesterdays come back happened despite Jose.

How could that be when he set the team up with one CB and 2 WBs to allow us to attack relentlessly?

 

[buckooo1978]

watching Liverpool

are Salah, Mane and Firmino more talented than Lukaku, Sanchez and Martial

certainly on form as our trio have underperformed obviously but in terms of talent it's not a big difference

I could easily imagine Sanchez and Martial tearing it up for Klopp

Mourinho needs to make sure the intensity is greater and that we attack as a team, not as individuals - the 2 CBs and Matic should sit in most games and the rest should play quickly with intensity and a desire to attack

 

[minoo-utd]

Because he is a coward. A defensive manager who always moans.

 

[acnumber9]

Mate stop kidding yourself. Go have a coke and watch Liverpool vs City. Managed by two attacking coaches, where full backs are allowed to overlap and average players like Milner and Sterling can look the bee’s knee’s.

Yeah, full backs aren’t allowed to overlap and Shaw himself hasn’t said Mourinho wants him to attack more. There’s plenty to criticise Mourinho for without entering the realm of fantasy. Nobody is saying Mourinho isn’t more defensive than many other top managers. The idea he strangles all attacking talent is complete nonsense and easily countered with facts.

 

[Markus3]

The reason why are so ineffective attacking, is simply because out centre backs are shocking with the ball at their feet. When Pogba went back and started to dictate play we looked a lot more cohesive.
So IMO as we have to make do with what we’ve got Mourinho needs to concentrate on getting those CB comfortable on the ball

 

[M Bison]

There was a stat on bbc sport yesterday about the average km covered during 90 mins and Utd were 20th out of all PL clubs.

As much as Jose has obviously tried to change our style of play, I agree with the sentiment that we need more, not just from our front players, but from the whole team.

 

[acnumber9]

watching Liverpool

are Salah, Mane and Firmino more talented than Lukaku, Sanchez and Martial

certainly on form as our trio have underperformed obviously but in terms of talent it's not a big difference

I could easily imagine Sanchez and Martial tearing it up for Klopp

Mourinho needs to make sure the intensity is greater and that we attack as a team, not as individuals - the 2 CBs and Matic should sit in most games and the rest should play quickly with intensity and a desire to attack

Today isn’t the day to wax lyrical about Liverpool’s front three. They’re not at the races.

 

[Adisa]

Yet his team has far more of the ball for most of the games, and lesser teams manage to do equal or more damage to our ‘compact and organised unit’ with far less of the ball?

We average possession just over 50%. We see a lot of games where smaller teams have more of the ball than we do. Just compare our stats to the other big teams. I'm not even saying it's wrong. I'm saying we aren't even very good at a tactic I feel doesn't do our attackers much help.
We don't commit enough numbers in attack, we just don't... especially against the smaller teams where it's necessary and we don't win the ball back early enough or high enough so we can't sustain attached is either.
I'm not going to get into an argument about restricting attackers. There's no point.
I'll just say attackers find it harder when they don't have enough bodies around them and when they have to travel further distance to reach the opposition goal.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

It is amazing the amount of things some people here think the manager should not be responsible for.

 

[MadDogg]

Think those are fair points.

Regarding midfield selection, Mourinho started this season (and last 2 seasons) with an ‘offensive’ midfield. He had Fred in the team, but nobody wants to see his team go and get smashed by Brighton. Balance is always key, and the reality is we had a much better balance with Fellaini. To call it ‘defensive’ is simple. It gave us greater control, which helped us at both ends.

Remember, defending well is important in football!

The two games we used Fellaini in that very deep role was actually an interesting tactic. Him sitting that deep actually allowed the rest of our midfield to perhaps push up a bit more than usual. Matic was poor and perhaps with Fellaini in that role we would have been better off with Fred or Pereira, but regardless it actually worked. That's why it was so strange that Mourinho stopped doing that and instead went to a more normal defensive midfield or with McTominay playing in defence instead. The Fellaini experiment seemed to be much more balanced than either of those options. It was only Watford and Bunley (I think those were the two games?), but at the moment I'd like to see us to try that again.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

There was a stat on bbc sport yesterday about the average km covered during 90 mins and Utd were 20th out of all PL clubs.

As much as Jose has obviously tried to change our style of play, I agree with the sentiment that we need more, not just from our front players, but from the whole team.

But that stat is due to how Jose wants us to play. More bodies behind the ball, don’t over commit people as one misplaced passed and you’re in trouble. He doesn’t want us to have lots of possession, he doesn’t want us to run all the time. He wants us to sit back and pick off a mistake or take advantage of a set piece., hence the reason our Km covered stat is so poor.

It’s always been him and how he wants to play, yesterday that last 20 minutes looked more like a United team when Jose had just thrown the sink at it and the players just had free reign.

 

[Ralph1386]

Not only does he not allow players to attack (unless we're losing), but he has no clue how to coach a team to attack. Our attackers just improvise when they have the ball.

 

[Ish]

Biggest nonsense in my opinion. The likes of Martial, Mata, Rashford and co not showing form because JM doesn’t ‘let them off the leash’. Like, are we just making up facts now?

Yesterday is no testament to an ideal normality. We should NOT typically line up with just one-centre half, Lukaku, Mata, Sanchez, Martial, Fellaini, Pogba on at the same time. That doesn’t mean anything else is negative or defensive.

It’s such a lazy narrative, one of many tbh. Don’t get me wrong, we are not a great attacking side by any stretch, but we are definitely a team that TRIES to attack. We just do it poorly. Players have poor movement, control, decision making, passing etc. Full- backs do attack. Valencia is just useless when he does, for example.

We do line up more cautiously against the bigger sides, which is as much common sense than anything else, but in most games, we definitely try to attack.

I don’t think there’s been many posters, if any, which ever stated he doesn’t allow us to attack. Surely we need to attack to try and win any match?

Most posters have said and identified trends in which he does not really train or practice attacking movements or moments in a match - this might prove why we struggle to attack or seem coherent in attack?

IMO, he’s just a risk averse coach in his “normal” state. That’s not a slight. It’s just who he is.

Seems like a bit of a shift of the goalposts to “defend” Mourinho and lay the blame with our attack.

 

[buckooo1978]

Today isn’t the day to wax lyrical about Liverpool’s front three. They’re not at the races.

yes and hope you are right for the next 50 mins but you know what I mean

 

[Castia]

I am, because this is what we are doing wrong. Asking wide players to be defensively responsible is not wrong, it’s common sense.

It’s common sense to a point, it’s not common sense when our players are doing it at home to Derby and Wolves, we should be attacking these teams.

 

[Adisa]

@Rozay further to my point. I don't think there's anything wrong with being compact. We are just not very good at it either .
And it kills us in games we have responsibility to attack.

 

[M Bison]

But that stat is due to how Jose wants us to play. More bodies behind the ball, don’t over commit people as one misplaced passed and you’re in trouble. He doesn’t want us to have lots of possession, he doesn’t want us to run all the time. He wants us to sit back and pick off a mistake or take advantage of a set piece., hence the reason our Km covered stat is so poor.

It’s always been him and how he wants to play, yesterday that last 20 minutes looked more like a United team when Jose had just thrown the sink at it and the players just had free reign.

That makes sense to a point but we cover the least ground of all PL clubs, I’m sure tactics play a part but you can’t deny the players need to give a bit more.

 

[Mainoldo]

Yeah, full backs aren’t allowed to overlap and Shaw himself hasn’t said Mourinho wants him to attack more. There’s plenty to criticise Mourinho for without entering the realm of fantasy. Nobody is saying Mourinho isn’t more defensive than many other top managers. The idea he strangles all attacking talent is complete nonsense and easily countered with facts.

What facts? He’s the same guy that
Had Salah and Mikhtaryan playing as fullbacks.

 

[Jazz]

Lukaku saying this certainly makes it sound like the tactics are restricting (not to mention it not being the first player to speak out about us not being allowed to attack basically)

Wow can't believe he was that blunt. We won't be seeing him for some time
He's basically saying what Pogba did - attack, attack, attack.

 

[acnumber9]

What facts? He’s the same guy that
Had Salah and Mikhtaryan playing as fullbacks.

That Hazard has scored more in a season under Mourinho than anyone else. That he coached a Real Madrid that scored by the bucketload.

Of course he did. Go and bore somebody else.

 

[Rozay]

It’s common sense to a point, it’s not common sense when our players are doing it at home to Derby and Wolves, we should be attacking these teams.

No matter who we are playing, if we don’t have the ball, we are in defensive mode, surely? If we have the ball, which we do more often than not against smaller teams, what difference does it make that our wide men are given instruction to help out their full-back in the event of them attacking us?

For me, the quality with which we attack is so poor. Our build up is too slow, our individuals rarely show any quality. This is what they do WITH the ball, before we even talk about what they do in defensive situations. Valencia gets so much of the ball in the final third and stops, dithers and turns back, for example. This is poor, poor quality. Or perhaps poor coaching and instruction too.

 

[MackRobinson]

In which case we are in agreement, yet you feel particularly argumentative this fine Sunday afternoon!

I don't think I'm in an argumentative mood. I just don't understand your finger wagging in this thread and in your op you looked to shift the blame on the players. The overriding point is offensively United look terrible and at this point the onus is on the manager find solutions. Arguing against hyperbole (which is essentially what you're doing) seems odd and fruitless.

You also mention that United only line up cautiously against bigger sides, but that the use of 2 DMs constantly seems to contradict that point (Matic and McTominay yesterday)