The REAL reason we are failing

[UpWithRivers]

There is a lot of blame going around blaming every single player and manager and the board and the owners. We keep saying we need to buy this player and that player and get another manager, change this, change that. But lets look at it from a different angle.

We have one of the most experienced managers in football with equal number of trophies to Pep. We have one of the most expensive squads with very talented players. Previous to Mourinho we had Van Gaal another very experienced and highly decorated manager and an expensive squad. Ok we can start arguing that most of our players wont get into Cities team and we play boring football etc. But that is not the point. To win the Prem you need to be consistent. We can loose to City and thats not ok but its acceptable. What we should do is beat the other 15 teams home and away. Thats 90 points. Ok. Ok thats not realistic. There will be off days. But we can make up those points from drawing and winning a few games against the top 5 even if we arnt as good as them on paper as they also will have off days against us.

This is what for me was the genius of Ferguson. He knew that he had a system and a methodology that would produce a team that would relentlessly win against most of the other teams. It was a machine. Yes we had great players but the greatness was the ability to grind out results week in week out.
So why cant we do that now? Its the players? No it isnt. Our team is better at least than 15 other teams. Its the manager? No. Better than at least 15 other teams. Its the way we play. Shouldn't matter. We should be beating Brighton, West Ham and the rest of them week in week out with the odd freak result going against us then coming up against City etc and losing or maybe grabbing a lucky win/draw.

So whats the problem you ask? No one believes in the Managers philosophy. Not Van Gaals, Not Mourinho's and not even David Moyes. How do we get anywhere when the fans, the board and even the players do not believe in the managers philosophy? This stems from the 'Utd Way' and the legacy that was Ferguson. Even this season you can see Mourinho talking about being more attacking. When you look at the team. Do you see a Mourinho team? No. Its is nothing like his teams of old. Do you see players with absolute trust and dedication to his system and his methodology? No way. Players are questioning him all the time. So are the fans and the board. We can get rid of Mourinho but whoever we get in we will never get anywhere until we (the board, the fans and the players) all believe 100 percent in the manager and support him no matter what.

And I say this as a fan that just wants the 'Utd Way' brought back. But maybe its time to let go.

 

[charlenefan]

If the board dont believe in the manager why did they hire him? Why dont they sack him now?

As for the fans you'll never get everyone to be behind the manager, there were tons of idiots who wanted Fergie gone during the barren 2003-2006 years.

Lastly the players, they'll get behind whoever is winning. They were all behind Mourinho in his first season when we were winning League Cups and the Europa League

 

[RedorDead21]

The derby has nothing to do with it really. Without Pogba I don't think anyone held out any hope. There was a slight window of opportunity at 2-1 which may have been taken with Pogs and like Jose said bringing on the big man for the last 20 mins. We would still have been second best and completely outplayed but I'm not sure what everyone expects given where the 2 clubs are. The reasons for that are well discussed on here so no point another thread arguing those points.

Ultimately I think its the pundits pushing the United way more than fans. Can we try and find footage of Souness and co saying we were great on the eye when we were at our very best. That could be a hard find! It's just a stick they choose to beat us with. If we were winning most fans wouldn't care! We ain't so the question arises isn't it better to play good football if you ain't going to be winning trophies. A sad conumdrum for our fan base to contend with and to me I'm not fussed. I just want to get back to winning trophies and how we play I couldn't care less. I'm not a season ticket holder so perhaps thats easier for me to say.

Could another manager have us playing better...Yes for me. Would we have beaten City under any manager at the weekend....NO chance for me with that team. They win 8/10 with those lineups for me. Given the outlay since SAF retired its time the club completely re-structures and if anything (sadly) look at our noisy neighbours in how we can improve that side of the club. God thats hard to say!

 

[sunama]

I agree with both posts.

IMO, it is the board who need to make a decision.
If they decide that they want trophies at any (reasonable) cost, then tell Jose that he will have carte blanche to do as he pleases (within reason), but he must win trophies. Otherwise, he will be fired, without compensation - not sure Jose will go for this, though.
Jose is a serial winner and whenever he has had 100% backing from those around him, he wins trophies. Big trophies. It may not be pretty, but he'll get those trophies. At MUFC, he hasn't had 100% backing (mainly due to his playing style) and that has been an issue.

The other way that board can go is - Jose...You're Fired!!!
And then get another manager, who will probably also be fired in 2-3 years.

 

[UpWithRivers]

If the board dont believe in the manager why did they hire him? Why dont they sack him now?

As for the fans you'll never get everyone to be behind the manager, there were tons of idiots who wanted Fergie gone during the barren 2003-2006 years.

Lastly the players, they'll get behind whoever is winning. They were all behind Mourinho in his first season when we were winning League Cups and the Europa League

Why dont the board sack him? 1) Who else would they get? Baring Pep who will play the way we want to play. 2) There is supporting and believing in a manager. Different things. They believe he is a very good manager and they hope he can turn things around. Do they 100 percent support his philosophy? Or are they asking him to be more attacking? Do they support his purchases? Or are asking him to look at other players that more suit what they want?

The fans are fickle and yes asking all of them to believe when losing is a hard sell. But the players? Do we have a John Terry who would die for him? Or do we have Pogba saying attack attack attack and questioning him? Do we have players having hissy fits when he asks them to track back? To do certain roles?

 

[charlenefan]

Why dont the board sack him? 1) Who else would they get? Baring Pep who will play the way we want to play. 2) There is supporting and believing in a manager. Different things. They believe he is a very good manager and they hope he can turn things around. Do they 100 percent support his philosophy? Or are they asking him to be more attacking? Do they support his purchases? Or are asking him to look at other players that more suit what they want?

The fans are fickle and yes asking all of them to believe when losing is a hard sell. But the players? Do we have a John Terry who would die for him? Or do we have Pogba saying attack attack attack and questioning him? Do we have players having hissy fits when he asks them to track back? To do certain roles?

But why hire him in the first place if the board want a certain style of play. They should have known they're never going to get that with Mourinho

 

[UpWithRivers]

But why hire him in the first place if the board want a certain style of play. They should have known they're never going to get that with Mourinho

Exactly

 

[do.ob]

If after three years the coach still has to convice people of his philosophy then maybe the problem lies with him. Mourinho has had massive transfer budgets and a lot of time at United, it's naive to think that you just have to throw more money at him when a couple of hundred million in transfer fees and three years down the road he's 8th and falling out with his own signings.

 

[RedorDead21]

But why hire him in the first place if the board want a certain style of play. They should have known they're never going to get that with Mourinho

I think it's clear the board like any other just want to be winning and on top. They hardly care for how we are on the eye. Right now we are not winning and given the spend thats what Ed is looking at. Not what does Mou need to play attractive football...moreover why are we where we are given the deals I have done on his behalf....is it 5? I'm a Mou fan based purely on the fact I see other issues at play here but Mou (for whatever reason) has brought in players who haven't had the success he hoped. Are the players not good enough or is he not getting enough out of them. We'd be no where near top regardless for me if a couple of them were playing better but it would help assess what we need. Right now that is difficult and again thats right back at Jose.

This club is swallowing managers and spitting them out and for me they need help. That means a DoF and that side being looked after separately. A long term strategy in place. A manager aligned to the same values so everyone is at least of the same cloth. A derby defeat is irrelevant we needed all this last week. We'd still need all this if we got a well deserved draw!

 

[BaseFishing]

Guys, I'm ready.
I'm ready to admit what the REAL reason is.
I'm sorry I've kept this from you all for so long.
I've felt guilty. I've felt ashamed. I've been embarrassed about it. I've been in the prison of my own mind.
But I think it's finally time to let the truth come out. The REAL reason we are failing...

After SAF retired I made a bet with my friend from school that we'll keep being just as successful because I thought we had a good infrastructure.

I jinxed it guys. I'm sorry. I'm so so sorry.
*cries hysterically*

A bit more on topic - it's a street that goes both ways. I know you're calling for 100% belief in the manager, and I wholeheartedly agree on the principle. But the manager has to have 100% belief in the values of the club. That's the magic combination. If Mourinho played more attacking football and chose younger, more in-line with the club philosophy transfer targets, then I think we'd be in a much better position than we are now. There's no fans who would want him sacked if he was doing his best to stay true to the club's values a bit more.

 

[JPRouve]

But why hire him in the first place if the board want a certain style of play. They should have known they're never going to get that with Mourinho

Because from a CV standpoint he was the easiest manager to target, personally my favorite options have been in that order Favre, Pochettino and Jardim. I'm sure that for most sensible people this was a crazy, maybe even stupid list, I can't objectively justify it and a board would tell me to do one if I proposed these names in 2016.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

But why hire him in the first place if the board want a certain style of play. They should have known they're never going to get that with Mourinho

Yes. He was a mistake.

 

[UpWithRivers]

If after three years the coach still has to convice people of his philosophy then maybe the problem lies with him. Mourinho has had massive transfer budgets and a lot of time at United, it's naive to think that you just have to throw more money at him when a couple of hundred million in transfer fees and three years down the road he's 8th and falling out with his own signings.

I think it's clear the board like any other just want to be winning and on top. They hardly care for how we are on the eye. Right now we are not winning and given the spend thats what Ed is looking at. Not what does Mou need to play attractive football...moreover why are we where we are given the deals I have done on his behalf....is it 5? I'm a Mou fan based purely on the fact I see other issues at play here but Mou (for whatever reason) has brought in players who haven't had the success he hoped. Are the players not good enough or is he not getting enough out of them. We'd be no where near top regardless for me if a couple of them were playing better but it would help assess what we need. Right now that is difficult and again thats right back at Jose.

Yes blame Mourinho. But Im saying lets look at it from a different angle. Why cant one of the most experienced managers with proven history of winning trophies get the best out of the players? Not why cant they beat City. But why cant they beat Brighton and West Ham? And for that matter why couldn't Van Gaal? And from the perspective of players instead of why are signings so sht for the amount of money we spent (agreed) ask even though they are not Man City standards whuy cant they beat Brighton and West Ham etc? Dea Gea, Young, Bailly, Lindhof, Shaw,Pererira, Fred, Pogba, Mata, Lukaku, Martial should be destroying everyone outside top 4/5.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I was SHOCKED by what I learned when I opened this thread!

Anyway, I don't think it's as simple as the players not believing in the strategy... I'm sure at some point the players were all 100% behind Mourinho and his philosophy... it hasn't been negative from day one.

 

[JPRouve]

Yes blame Mourinho. But Im saying lets look at it from a different angle. Why cant one of the most experienced managers with proven history of winning trophies get the best out of the players? Not why cant they beat City. But why cant they beat Brighton and West Ham? And for that matter why couldn't Van Gaal? And from the perspective of players instead of why are signings so sht for the amount of money we spent (agreed) ask even though they are not Man City standards whuy cant they beat Brighton and West Ham etc? Dea Gea, Young, Bailly, Lindhof, Shaw,Pererira, Fred, Pogba, Mata, Lukaku, Martial should be destroying everyone outside top 4/5.

Managers decline or hit periods of bad form, their careers aren't linear.

 

[RedSky]

But why hire him in the first place if the board want a certain style of play. They should have known they're never going to get that with Mourinho

To steady the ship, which to his credit hes done. Things have gone wrong in 2018 though and hindsight Woody shouldn't have offered him a luxury new contract back in December. But he has offered us short term success.

 

[do.ob]

Yes blame Mourinho. But Im saying lets look at it from a different angle. Why cant one of the most experienced managers with proven history of winning trophies get the best out of the players? Not why cant they beat City. But why cant they beat Brighton and West Ham? And for that matter why couldn't Van Gaal? And from the perspective of players instead of why are signings so sht for the amount of money we spent (agreed) ask even though they are not Man City standards whuy cant they beat Brighton and West Ham etc? Dea Gea, Young, Bailly, Lindhof, Shaw,Pererira, Fred, Pogba, Mata, Lukaku, Martial should be destroying everyone outside top 4/5.

Because Moyes is not and never was a manager of United's stature. Because van Gaal was past it and because Mourinho is past it at the highest level.
Obviously United have issues of their own which the club should work on, but a manager/coach who is top tier (in the here and now, not in the past) should be able to overcome that.

 

[red4ever 79]

Players are not good enough. Take the starting line up yesterday, Young, Smalling, Lindelof, Fellaini, Lingard all never a Manchester United standard of player. On top of that we have no system, no coherent approach. Just look like a load of traffic cones standing around catching flies

 

[VeevaVee]

The reason no one believes in it is because it's shite and majorly lacking. Same with LVG's.

Previous counts for nothing. Good tactics and motivation are what a manager is there to do. The latter is massive in my opinion and is very complex but involves the players enjoying training and the football, and there being a buzz around the place from that and belief it'll work. No manager since Fergie has been able to do those things.
Nor have they been able to sort the team out.

 

[RedorDead21]

Yes blame Mourinho. But Im saying lets look at it from a different angle. Why cant one of the most experienced managers with proven history of winning trophies get the best out of the players? Not why cant they beat City. But why cant they beat Brighton and West Ham? And for that matter why couldn't Van Gaal? And from the perspective of players instead of why are signings so sht for the amount of money we spent (agreed) ask even though they are not Man City standards whuy cant they beat Brighton and West Ham etc? Dea Gea, Young, Bailly, Lindhof, Shaw,Pererira, Fred, Pogba, Mata, Lukaku, Martial should be destroying everyone outside top 4/5.

Like I've said the city game I'm not even counting as I expected nothing less than a defeat. The reasons why I've outlined whether you agree of not.
Its not all on Mou. Clearly. But its been 3 years. We are up against clubs who have a better structure and strategy in place over longer timeframes agreed. The main issue for fans is that progress has stopped and if anything has started to reverse at a pace. Now Mou isn't know for long term projects anyway so to imagine he's going to come back stronger for once in his career is unlikely.....more unlikely still given the structure of how our club is operating which has proven itself since SAF retired as NOT WORKING regardless of who the manager is!

 

[Sassy Colin]

Sorry, I don't get what the REAL reason is.

What is it?

 

[BaseFishing]

Sorry, I don't get what the REAL reason is.

What is it?

Global warming.

Either that or Obama. I'm not sure either.

 

[Adisa]

Trying to pin point a reason for our problems is futile. It's so complex.
People say keep throwing money...keep throwing money. He had a £50m man who's been here five minutes but still played an unfit Fellaini yesterday .
The board also have their own issues .

 

[UpWithRivers]

Sorry, I don't get what the REAL reason is.

What is it?

Ignorance

 

[golden_blunder]

Clickbait title!

 

[Adnan]

All our domestic rivals have managers who play a adventurous style which is pleasing on the eye. We've been hiring managers (post SAF) who have been displeasing on the eye.

After spending big money to improve the team in in the last 5 years we still don't have a CB that befits the club. Our midfielders (with the exception of Pogba) are useless at ball retention against quality opposition. Our striker who we paid Everton a extortionate sum for when alot of us knew he had technical flaws was a pathetic decision.

Our recruitment has been shambolic and something needs to be done urgently. Some sort of accountability process needs to take place too. A D.O.F can't come soon enough as far as i'm concerned.

 

[Nr.7]

There’s more than just one reason why we’re in this state.

Manager? Yes ... but if we had gone for Pep 3 years ago and he signed Bravo, Nolito and Stones would the board back him again next season with a further 150 milion? Doubt it.

So it’s the board as well? Yes.
They bring in Mourinho, but also want expansive football (with trophys). They give him a contract extension then don’t back him in the transfer window this past summer.
They throw money at problems without any long term vision (e.g. Mata, Sanchez), but also sometimes decide that throwing money isn’t the way to go (Maguire, Toby).

 

[Adisa]

Because from a CV standpoint he was the easiest manager to target, personally my favorite options have been in that order Favre, Pochettino and Jardim. I'm sure that for most sensible people this was a crazy, maybe even stupid list, I can't objectively justify it and a board would tell me to do one if I proposed these names in 2016.

It's not crazy. It's was my list minus Favre.
You don't hire someone because he's won all the trophies before hand. You hire a manager because you believe he's the right fit for the club.
Barcelona rejected Mourinho for a reserve team manager in 2008. That's is how a club with conviction in its own identity operates.
Don't let anyone tell you you are crazy for wanting those names over Mourinho.

 

[groovyalbert]

Psychology is key to our recent fall from grace.

Our squad doesn't see itself as equal to the Utd teams of the 90s and 00s, and likewise opposing teams smell blood against us.

How many interviews have you seen or read where past players talk about how they felt the game was lost before they stepped onto the pitch at OT? Countless.

Across enough platforms in the club - from the manager, to the squad, to the board and the fans - we've accepted that we can't compete. The realities would suggest otherwise - good players, money spent, top infrastructure and a proven manager. Now, not all of these may be right - and I think it's clear the club is not altogether pulling in the same direction, sadly.

But there's no doubting we've been compounded by our acceptance that we can't, and shouldn't even try, to go toe-to-toe with the best.

 

[JPRouve]

There’s more than just one reason why we’re in this state.

Manager? Yes ... but if we had gone for Pep 3 years ago and he signed Bravo, Nolito and Stones would the board back him again next season with a further 150 milion? Doubt it.

So it’s the board as well? Yes.
They bring in Mourinho, but also want expansive football (with trophys). They give him a contract extension then don’t back him in the transfer window this past summer.
They throw money at problems without any long term vision (e.g. Mata, Sanchez), but also sometimes decide that throwing money isn’t the way to go (Maguire, Toby).

It's interesting that you say that because United spent a fair whack on Ibrahimovic(Signing on fee and wage), Mkhitaryan and Bailly, none of them were particularly good, two are out of the club and we finished 6th. The club spent even more the following season. So you are doubting about something that actually happened.

 

[r0663664]

Jose failed to let players expressed themselves. In fact, Jose bought players wanted by Pep e.g. Fred and Sanchez. If they play for Jose, it will be free flowing attack football and we will be wondering why we didn't buy them. Let's say we swap the coaches, Man Utd will be playing free flowing attacker football in 1 year. City would play like Jose with 2 DM, 1 strikers and 2 wingers. Sorry, nothing against Jose. His time is up, we will never play attractive as long as he manage. Nothing to see here, time to move on.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Global warming.

Either that or Obama. I'm not sure either.

Brexit?

 

[Cloud7]

I thought this thread was gonna somehow blame our issues on Real Madrid, due to the “REAL” being capitalized in the title. Must say I’m disappointed

 

[snk123]

There is a lot of blame going around blaming every single player and manager and the board and the owners. We keep saying we need to buy this player and that player and get another manager, change this, change that. But lets look at it from a different angle.

We have one of the most experienced managers in football with equal number of trophies to Pep. We have one of the most expensive squads with very talented players. Previous to Mourinho we had Van Gaal another very experienced and highly decorated manager and an expensive squad. Ok we can start arguing that most of our players wont get into Cities team and we play boring football etc. But that is not the point. To win the Prem you need to be consistent. We can loose to City and thats not ok but its acceptable. What we should do is beat the other 15 teams home and away. Thats 90 points. Ok. Ok thats not realistic. There will be off days. But we can make up those points from drawing and winning a few games against the top 5 even if we arnt as good as them on paper as they also will have off days against us.

This is what for me was the genius of Ferguson. He knew that he had a system and a methodology that would produce a team that would relentlessly win against most of the other teams. It was a machine. Yes we had great players but the greatness was the ability to grind out results week in week out.
So why cant we do that now? Its the players? No it isnt. Our team is better at least than 15 other teams. Its the manager? No. Better than at least 15 other teams. Its the way we play. Shouldn't matter. We should be beating Brighton, West Ham and the rest of them week in week out with the odd freak result going against us then coming up against City etc and losing or maybe grabbing a lucky win/draw.

So whats the problem you ask? No one believes in the Managers philosophy. Not Van Gaals, Not Mourinho's and not even David Moyes. How do we get anywhere when the fans, the board and even the players do not believe in the managers philosophy? This stems from the 'Utd Way' and the legacy that was Ferguson. Even this season you can see Mourinho talking about being more attacking. When you look at the team. Do you see a Mourinho team? No. Its is nothing like his teams of old. Do you see players with absolute trust and dedication to his system and his methodology? No way. Players are questioning him all the time. So are the fans and the board. We can get rid of Mourinho but whoever we get in we will never get anywhere until we (the board, the fans and the players) all believe 100 percent in the manager and support him no matter what.

And I say this as a fan that just wants the 'Utd Way' brought back. But maybe its time to let go.

So basically the manager. Yep!

 

[RedorDead21]

Jose failed to let players expressed themselves. In fact, Jose bought players wanted by Pep e.g. Fred and Sanchez. If they play for Jose, it will be free flowing attack football and we will be wondering why we didn't buy them. Let's say we swap the coaches, Man Utd will be playing free flowing attacker football in 1 year. City would play like Jose with 2 DM, 1 strikers and 2 wingers. Sorry, nothing against Jose. His time is up, we will never play attractive as long as he manage. Nothing to see here, time to move on.

Its not about free flowing attacking football. That can be trumped by other means of playing the game. German teams took the Spanish teams apart a few seasons back playing controlled incisive football it doesn't have to be what Pep and City are playing. We don't have a style........Jose teams always played as a mirror image of himself...not this team. Fans are acting like this is his style. Nothing could be further from the truth. Perhaps players here can push back harder on a non attacking style because thats whats apparently in our DNA. At chelsea they would listen to whatever the guy said as they'd never won much pre Jose. There's enough academy players in the squad and old pieces of furniture around who probably resist more than most dressing rooms as we've seen across several incoming managers with new ideas.

 

[redIndianDevil]

So whats the problem you ask? No one believes in the Managers philosophy. Not Van Gaals, Not Mourinho's and not even David Moyes. How do we get anywhere when the fans, the board and even the players do not believe in the managers philosophy? This stems from the 'Utd Way' and the legacy that was Ferguson. Even this season you can see Mourinho talking about being more attacking. When you look at the team. Do you see a Mourinho team? No. Its is nothing like his teams of old. Do you see players with absolute trust and dedication to his system and his methodology? No way. Players are questioning him all the time. So are the fans and the board. We can get rid of Mourinho but whoever we get in we will never get anywhere until we (the board, the fans and the players) all believe 100 percent in the manager and support him no matter what.

And I say this as a fan that just wants the 'Utd Way' brought back. But maybe its time to let go.

Board had nothing to do with manager's philosophy. Let's leave them alone for now.

Let's come to the players, you would have a point if Mourinho hadn't bought 10 players. But he did and it is his job to get them to believe in his philosophy or buy players who suits him. This is clearly a managerial failure, nothing to do with board or the fans.

What fans demand is quite irrelevant, if Mourinho had won the title last season, you wouldn't hear a peep from the fans about style. My point is quite simple, Mourinho should have gotten players who suited his system and should have made better use of the players available.

 

[Greck]

Maybe the reason LVG also failed is because we didn't believe hard enough

The philosophy itself has to convince the fans and their philosophies have been complete mismatch with fan expectation

 

[RedorDead21]

Board had nothing to do with manager's philosophy. Let's leave them alone for now.

Let's come to the players, you would have a point if Mourinho hadn't bought 10 players. But he did and it is his job to get them to believe in his philosophy or buy players who suits him. This is clearly a managerial failure, nothing to do with board or the fans.

What fans demand is quite irrelevant, if Mourinho had won the title last season, you wouldn't hear a peep from the fans about style. My point is quite simple, Mourinho should have gotten players who suited his system and should have made better use of the players available.

Has Mou bought 10 players? I thought it was 5!

 

[R77]

Trying to pin point a reason for our problems is futile. It's so complex.

This, pretty much.

Let's face it; in the current climate, losing to City is more or less predictable. Though we've shown we can beat them, yesterdays result is far from some kind of flashpoint. All perceived issues aside, involving the manager, the board, et cetera, we're miles off because of a couple of poor results earlier in the season. Look at that table, add 6 or 8 points to our total, and you have a good idea of our actual level. We're up against it because of a very poor start.

It would indeed be nice if, like all the teams above us bar maybe Watford, we had our own game-imposing attacking style. It's not to be at this point, and we just have to be patient. Which players end up buggering off before the manager does will be important, but that's nothing we can change.

It's actually exciting in a way. One day we will be back up there. Through whatever changes enable it, we will be an assertive, attacking force again. There's no way a club like Manchester United will fade and fail in the long term. It's more embarrassing than disappointing (at least for me), due to the uber-corporate image and silly amounts of cash being thrown around to no avail. It's that that makes it hard to deal with being 'just another club' for a while.

Let the scouse and the blue half have their day. We'll be back.

 

[Robbie Boy]

REAL MADRID.