Ronaldo is only leading the scorer list because of penalties and Messi still gets his numbers but he fades in big games or games in which Barca are challenged, which isn't a good look. The other great players don't play in those leagues anyways so that isn't saying much.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Now we rate a player's performances based on motm awards, mostly given to the goalscorers ? There's no way Bale was our best player against Liverpool, 2 lucky goals don't change that. Modric was a monster, pay attention to the reaction of the public at his performance against Liverpool last May (even here on the CAF). When it comes to his performances over 90 mins in the final stages of the CL no other player of ours has come close to his contribution except for Sergio Ramos who is a total different beast in the big European games. When we didn't know what to do with the ball in high pressure moments, our guys were looking to give the ball to Modric, not for CR.
With regard to your stance on CR, I've never seen a so-called GOAT contender and Bdor winner with such low bottom level performance. How can anyone watch CR's games against Bayern and Liverpool in the most important games of the season and call him the best player in the world is beyond my understanding. The guy literally couldn't pass the ball except for the nearest, safest option, let alone beat an opponent with skill.
The problem with Modric and players of his ilk is that their greatness can't be expressed on paper. You can't make up stats for the way he beats a man with skill, for how he passes between the lines, for how he closes passes lanes or for a body feint that opens up the entire pitch.
This is probably the only notable place on the planet where Messi gets only as many votes as Ronaldo.
357 each, as I hit the Post Reply button!
357 each, as I hit the Post Reply button!
Just to add my two cents in recent discussions, Real Madrid improved their level this decade after Modric, Bale and Isco's arrival, in order of importance.
Before that, games such as the 3-0 vs Borussia Dortmund at the Bernabeu or the 0-4 vs Bayern at the Allianz had no recent precedents.
Also, I find two concepts that are commonly used in this forum quite strange. The first one is that need for "midfield control" in every game to prove your value as a team or as a player, as if an European giant is going to let you dominate them so easily. Oh look, let's play Juventus, Bayern and Atletico, and let's control the midfield every time we face them! It's so easy!
The second one is this obsession with finals, as if it was the game that summed up the entire competition and the immediate previous rounds lacked importance.
Before that, games such as the 3-0 vs Borussia Dortmund at the Bernabeu or the 0-4 vs Bayern at the Allianz had no recent precedents.
Also, I find two concepts that are commonly used in this forum quite strange. The first one is that need for "midfield control" in every game to prove your value as a team or as a player, as if an European giant is going to let you dominate them so easily. Oh look, let's play Juventus, Bayern and Atletico, and let's control the midfield every time we face them! It's so easy!
The second one is this obsession with finals, as if it was the game that summed up the entire competition and the immediate previous rounds lacked importance.
Recent UCL final MoTM awards went to the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Neuer, Robben, Sneijder, Ramos, Van der sar, Cech etc. So , no, MOTM awards don't go to only the goal scorers. Also, if only attackers were given prominence, Modric wouldn't have got the WC golden ball ahead of hazard, Kdb, griezmann, Kane etc. So first point nullified.
You keep on harping about CL final stages? What do you mean by CL final stages? Last 10 mins of the CL final? 90 minutes of CL final? SF onwards? QF onwards? You yourself know CR7s contribution in CL "final"stages". No point in discussing this point if somebody is intentionally blind to facts and figures. You have mentioned just two matches to prove Modric's "great contribution" and Ronaldo's "worthlessness" in CL. Seems like an agenda to me.
Obviously either you are the biggest lover of Modric (who is the hipster's choice these days), or do not like CR7 for some reason. You are, though, thoroughly entitled to your opinions and imaginations. I am done justifying CR7's contribution to those CL triumphs.
Peace.
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I don't think Modric is a generalist. That would apply more to Pogba who's your typical box to box midfielder. Modric is a Xavi-Iniesta hybrid. Unbelievably pressing resistant with incredible control anddecision making in tight spaces and able to create positional superiority in attack through clever plays. Pogba is much more of a generalist, IMO, because he's a very good final passer, decent at controlling the game, can muscle of defenders, a goal threat, can head a ball and so forth. He can play a good role in every team but he'd never been able to do what Modric or Kroos respectively Iniesta or Xavi did for their teams. Modric is subtle, Pogba is spectacular. These are playersthat absolutely thrive in the right systems. You see how Pogba looks against a midfield like this when you played PSG - and this CM has nothing on Iniesta/Xavi or Modric/Kroos.
That's also why Pogba isn't the most talented midfielder for me currently around. I'd pick guys like Verratti, Thiago, Bernardo Silva, Arthur, de Jong, Havertz etc. ahead of Pogba's player type because they excel at what midfielders should be doing. I believe he is to them what Lampard, Gerrard etc. were to Xavi and Iniesta. More spectacular but simply not as good for your team.
I guess you must have missed Barca’s recent CL QFs
Modric and Real Madrid midfield looks bad against plenty of team last season too.
I wouldn't say Pogba is merely a generalist, yes he could do a lot of things on the pitch, but he is also so darn good at it too. He is at best creating chances with great passing, he can dribbles past opponents effortlessly to find space, score goals and assists, sure he can also do alot of other stuffs too as you've already mentioned. Maybe you don't rate Pogba at all, but I wouldn't place Verratti, Thiago, B.Silva, Arthur, de Jong, Havertz all ahead of Pogba. This is getting crazy, especially when we all see how Pogba carry us to become best team in England so far this year (2019). I really think you seriously overrated Modric and underrated Pogba. But let's just agree we've got completely different views on players then.
He is verging on comical at this stage.
I don't think it's strange that people talk a lot about midfield control. It can help your team immensely if your midfield is good enough to control the game, dictate tempo, limit the chances against your defense etc. I don't think you can over-rate a great midfielder as the benefits such a player can bring you are immense and intangible.
As for the obession with finals, Messi is the first player that will be criticized for not scoring in a Champions League knockout game. At the same time Ronaldo scores a brace away at Juventus and the arguments start that the Champions League is the pinnacle of the game and those biggest games are Ronaldo's bread and butter. This is done to help argue Ronaldo's case when he didn't perform in the first half of the season, basically waiting for the CL to start. That's when people like to ignore everything else and focus on how Ronaldo is the best in the biggest games. Then Madrid get to a later stage in the tournament, Ronaldo disappears, and the arguments start how you can't ignore the entire competition on account of a few games.
So, just like how the Final of the Champions League doesn't sum up the entire competition, by extension the CL also doesn't sum up the entire season. Isn't that logical? We go out to Roma and the focus is on that one game, completely ignoring Messi being brilliant in eliminating Chelsea (a stronger team than Roma), being brilliant in the Copa del Rey (which we win) and being brilliant in La Liga (which we also win).
As you can see, arguments shift depending on what Ronaldo does at which stage of the CL.
I was talking about talent regarding Arthur etc., of course many of those names aren't on Pogba's level yet. But I'd still pick Thiago and Verratti ahead of Pogba and I think a look at the most successful teams of the last decade proves my point. Those ball-playing midfields dominated European football completely both in leagues and international tournaments. And yes, Real's midfield doesn't look to sharp currently but they've been excellent for the past three years.
As I said, I was talking about player types. The ones you bolded aren't there yet. Except for Silva, who is a close one.
Still much better. When Messi plays bad he has a whole team in front of him not a fullback. And at the same time when he plays bad Barca fails. When CR underperformed we still got by Bayern, Pool, Atletico, City and the likes. Barca won the CL 2 times this decade and both times were decided by Messi's masterclass in the final stages of the competition.
If B.Silva is CM then he is doing very poor job playing 40 passes per game in a team that dominates with 65-70% possession.
Also midfield control doesn't depend on individuals alone. For example the midfield that's dominating the league, one of their key player is Fernandinho. With Van Gaal we dominated him and Yaya Toure, Silva with fecking Fellaini playing as midfielder. With Van Gaal we dominated midfield of Fabregas, Matic with Fellaini, Rooney in midfield.
If Pogba plays under Pep, he will dominate every midfield as that's how he sets up the team. Average players like Milner, Henderson are dominating midfields now, do you think they will dominate if they play under someone like say Jose?
City had Fernandinho, Silva, KdB but they averaged 4th in possession before Pep took over and now they are by far the best, you think that's coincidence?
Don't think that one-size-fits-all definition of a good midfielder makes too much sense. Not all midfielders need to have the same level at the same tasks. Sure, someone like Thiago is a better at certain things than Pogba, but from my limited knowledge of the players listed, Pogba is way superior to them in individual offensive impact, while still having a good level at the basics. (Havertz might be the closest, especially when he's fully developed.)
Plus there are usually three central midfielders in a modern setup. If one thinks of a midfield not in terms of singular players, but in terms of a cohesive unit composed of different player types, I see little reason to choose anyone of them over Pogba (except perhaps in a strict possession setting). You could theoretically still field De Jong, Thiago and Pogba.
I agree that he isn't consistently the best player in Real Madrid, but I'd only put Ronaldo and Marcelo above him. Ramos is super inconsistent (he shows in big games, but sometimes he costs the team in others, Modric at least will rarely lose you a game) and Bale has been a non factor too many times.
For the last 9 years, Xavi stopped being elite and became a liability in big games around 2012 (teams exploited his legs being gone, harshly), that's barely 2 seasons from him to be considered a top player. Iniesta had more time at the top, but since 2014 Modric has been consistently better every season, in the global of this decade, Modric is the best midfielder I've seen play due to level and consistency.
I won't argue against a wall, you've been saying for months Kroos is super overrated, now that we talk about Modric suddenly Kroos is the one that carries weight in that midfield.
If you want to see the most flagrant example, watch again the 2nd leg of the 17' UCL Semis, Atletico score twice in 16 minutes, the ball starts burning for Madrid players, and Modric appears, starts winning the ball back, finding every good option and dribbling in midfield until Benzema creates the goal that gives them oxygen. In that leg, what Modric does (small example) is as important as Ronaldo scoring 3 for Real Madrid in the 1st leg, yet I'm not asking from people to praise him in the same manner they did to Ronaldo but that difference also translate to how some players are perceived for individual awards.
Or maybe you're going to tell me it's easy to live on the edge vs Simeone's Atletico, and end up unscathed with 9 dribbles and 93% pass completion?.
Dominating the midfield doesn't only mean getting into 60% possession for your team, just winning the midfield battle, Modric usually does that every game. He defends, passes in short and large range, creates chances and dribbles better than 95% of the midfielders he confronts.
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I don't think I said midfield control was not important. My point is that it's impossible to impose it against every rival in every game and every season, and as such, many examples of midfield not being controlled will appear.
This applies to any team at any point in history, especially if the rivals are strong.
I am not sure. I've watched the whole video, he is good, but I still preferred De Bruyne last year and the current Pogba, maybe he is not my type of midfielder. To me, Modric is at similar level as Kroos, which is also a good midfielder, but not among the top 3 players in Real Madrid over the years. To "whoscored" reference, Kroos has higher rating than Modric over the years too.
Ronaldo, Ramos and Modric are the top 3 at Madrid since 2013. There is no doubt about that.
The leg vs Bayern is a fine example on the difference between Leo and Cris, when teams want to stop Leo, they cage him, with a player pressing him and two more covering each exit forward. After Ronaldo destroyed PSG and Juve's defense with his off the ball movement, bringing back and forth defenders, Heynckes took a rather simple approach, play with a slightly advanced line and ignore Ronaldo, either he was isolated from the play, or he was just a target man, too far from goal to unleash his weapons.
Midfield control is just a tool in order to win, some teams (like Mou's Real Madrid) gift it away just to kick the ball over midfield everytime they want to attack a midfield-heavy team.
Bale is a game changer, he's certainly helped Real Madrid luck turn for the better, but at the price of 100M back in the day, he should've been in the level of Ronaldo, Modric, Marcelo, Kroos or Casemiro, not an overpriced and improved version of what Sheringham/Solskjaer were for United.
Isco had impact, James too (Kovacic later, to a lesser degree), but imo their biggest impact was that not only they could play any big game without Madrid suffering a lot (specially Isco in 2017) but they also added a lot of depth throughout the year, Morata too. That was key for Real in these last deep UCL runs.
Different styles, yeah. Maybe Modric could've had a bigger spotlight if he played with a peak Xabi Alonso/Casemiro midfield behind them, in a #10 role, he's shared that work and reconverted to a total midfielder, obviously, since he's been around 30 y/o for a while, his workrate has a cost when he plays in the last 3rd of the pitch, Pogba and De Bruyne look much better than him there, but I think Modric usually does a harder job.
Kroos is his perfect sidekick, and about whoscored... their system likes what he likes, I usually trust their ratings on a match basis, but over a season the stat weight seems off, it puts Rakitic above Busquets in the 17/18 La Liga for example, maybe goals, assists, long passes or whatever have too much weight on a bigger picture.
Last year before January for example, everyone knew Ronaldo was far from his best, even far from Europe's best, yet whoscored had him with an ~8 rating I think just because he still scored above average and shot a lot, even if he was wasteful and isolated from the rest of the team.
Kroos is overrated if you pretend he’s above any other midfielder in the world bar Modric like you and plenty others did. He’s obviously a good player, as is Casemiro.
You just did it again, you give Modric ALL the credit for Madrid winning the midfield battle in a game despite him being only a small part of why that happened. If he gets credit for what Kroos, Isco and Casemiro do then you need to give Ronaldo credit for the goals Bale and Benzema scored aswell. No midfielder controls a game or changes it’s direction by himself, that’s impossible. Besides, the main reasons Madrid could overcrowd the midfield in those games was the fact they had 2 very good attacking fullbacks and a super goal machine in Ronaldo.
What Modric does is nowhere near as important as scoring 3 goals in a game ffs, that’s such a stupid argument. Ronaldo was three times as important as Modric in Madrid making it through that 2017 semifinal.
Last year’s PSG away match was the only match Madrid were comfortably the better team in the CL last year and their front six was Casemiro, Kovacic, Lucas Vasquez, Asensio, Ronaldo, Benzema.
It’s like arguing Busquets is better than Messi and Verratti is better than Neymar or Mbappé... you can make the exact same argument and switch their names but it’s such a wrong view of the sport.
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That’s such a wrong view of what happened. You’re even disagreeing with what you said about the game at the time.
Bayern did anything but ignore Ronaldo, their marking in every single cross was insanely good. They prepared themselves to a ridiculous point to stop him.
Look at this, they did this to Ronaldo on every single cross. Often with an added push before the cross even came in
Are you actually saying that the best way to stop Cristiano Ronaldo is to ignore him and play a high line?
PSG and Juve were so stupid, they should have completely ignored him instead of marking him.
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The problem with players like Modric is that people start seeing him as underrated (which he was for a while) and then start talking about body feints in midfield and small dribbles to overcome pressure as if they’re anywhere near as important as goals ffs.
It’s obviously a lot easier to have a consistently good impact on midfield than it is to consistently dismantle a defense. No fecking shit, welcome to football.
God forbids these hipsters actually make sane people believe the likes of Modric, David Silva, Bernardo Silva, Thiago, Verratti, etc. are as important to their teams as the best forwards on the planet
It’s obviously a lot easier to have a consistently good impact on midfield than it is to consistently dismantle a defense. No fecking shit, welcome to football.
God forbids these hipsters actually make sane people believe the likes of Modric, David Silva, Bernardo Silva, Thiago, Verratti, etc. are as important to their teams as the best forwards on the planet
Getting smaller to the PSG guys. Outside of the PSG players not many players are really coming close to them.
Of course it is up to the system. I even said that those players I listed are better in specific systems whole Pogba's versatility allows him to thrive in every team.
However, Pogba is no Pep midfielder. He is an instinct footballer who likes taking much more risks than Guardiola wants his CMs to. Additionally, he lacks the agility and the low center of gravity many of the past decades most succesful CMs possessed. When it comes to pressing resistance and midfield domination, there are much better players than Pogba and also many who will develop in that direction.
I could imagine Pogba occupying a similar role to de Bruyne in a Pep system. But in all honesty, I think he's just not the midfielder you are looking for in that kind of system. Pogba isn't particularly good in finding solutions in tight spaces (like Xavi), avoiding that opponents get near him (like Kroos) or outplaying opponents through quick turns or dribbling (like Iniesta, Modric or Arthur). He shields the ball quite well but ideally this is more of a last resort. And he always looks for the deadly pass when he should be more patient. He'd fit in perfectly in a Klopp system. I'd even go as far as suggesting he'sthe perfect CM for that. But not in a positional concept and the past 10 years showed that this kind of idea is the way to go if you've got the best team individuall.
KdB is key player for Pep and he lost possession most times than anyone in league last season.
Busquets is one of Pep's favourite player, he wasn't more agile than Pogba or had low centre of gravity.
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You do realize this happens to Messi in every big game, too? The way we play, there's barely anyone else on the team worth paying attention to.
Not really sure where this argument goes: I already said that Pogba may not be the best third/offensive CM for such a possession-first setup. But also that the specialized needs of this particular setup aren't the ultimate measuring stick for the quality of midfielders as such. (Which seems to be your basic outlook, one I don't fully agree with.)
Anyway, won't stand in the way of yet more Messi vs Ronaldo discussion any longer.
Yes, of course.
They certainly don’t ignore him and pray for the best, that would be stupid
He rates players based on the ability to fit in a particular setup which he deems is the best system to get the best out of a super talented team rather than their ability to fit into multiples systems and ways of playing regardless of the team around them.
No-one said it wasn't, but what you don't understand / deliberately blind yourself to to satisfy your Barca-leaning views, is that Ronaldo IS the biggest key to it, not anyone else. Just find it funny the lengths you go to to discredit the man. Feel free to continue with your mental gymnastics
Busquets played the deepest part though, that's not the role Pogba naturally occupies. And Busquets loves the quick, easy passes and occasionally surprising passes in the spaces between the lines which is fundamentally different to Pogba who is much more direct. Besides that Busquets hates physical battles and avoids them where he can.
KdB is true in a way, he plays quite an odd role that's not been present in previous Pep teams. One that is more reminiscent of Messi than, say, Iniesta or Xavi. Not sure Pogba could play there though.
Well, I indeed think they are the ultimate measuring stick. There's always been these physically strong goal scoring box to box midfielders around but IMO recent years have proven that their counter parts are more successful both in direct comparisons as well as against weaker oppositions.
You keep moving goal posts. Should have known better before entering discussion with Messi vs Ronaldo crowd.
Which goal posts am I supposed to have moved? Have a feeling you simply don't like me not agreeing with your views on Pogba. Hardly a controversial view that he's not particularly suited for Guardiola style of football. Neither it's controversial to think that possession oriented football is the most successful style in the last decade and that's all I'm saying. Not sure what's your problem here.
Pogba can't play for pep as he is too direct. Kdb disproves that. Then you have bunch of excuses.
Pogba can't play as he isn't agile enough. Busquets disproves that. Then you gave bunch of excuses.
Players like Kroos, Schweinsteiger, Vidal were not agile and didn't have problem playing for Pep
Couldn't care less about what style was dominant.
You are just making up things with every post. Maybe that's the nature of this thread.
You yourself are posting in this thread so don't pretend you are better than the other posters in here.
If you don't see the difference between players like Kroos, Busquets or Schweinsteiger in comparison to Pogba I can't help you. I admitted you got a point with de Bruyne losing the ball that often but he is not exactly a Pogba clone, so calm down. Both are still very different players with Pogba still being more direct and far more physical than KdB. Besides that, take a look at the other players Pep uses as CMs, namely Bernardo and David Silva, Foden and Gündogan. Those guys are more or less the exact opposite of Pogba. If he fancied Pogba style players surely there would be more on the team?
You can say the same about his previous teams by the way. You've got Vidal whose role wasn't nearly as important as it was for Juve and Toure who he sold in favour of Busquets. Other than that, Pep always preferred certain player types like when he publicly demanded Thiago or when he signed Alonso as a Kroos replacement or when he moved Lahm to CM and so forth.
Completely disagree. Pogba would fit into Pep's team. What do you mean too direct? His passing, his dribbbling? KdB did all that and was a ball loss merchant. Pogba would adapt. Pogba's passing is arguably better than KdB's, he is faster, better dribbler, better press resistance. The only issue I could see him having is his work rate but even Robbery worked hard under Pep.
If Gundogan can play for City Pogba would walk into that team as he is a much better footballer. I can't think of one thing Gundogan is better at atm.
Yeah, they were super obsessed with marking himThat’s such a wrong view of what happened. You’re even disagreeing with what you said about the game at the time.
Bayern did anything but ignore Ronaldo, their marking in every single cross was insanely good. They prepared themselves to a ridiculous point to stop him.
Look at this, they did this to Ronaldo on every single cross. Often with an added push before the cross even came in
Are you actually saying that the best way to stop Cristiano Ronaldo is to ignore him and play a high line?
PSG and Juve were so stupid, they should have completely ignored him instead of marking him.
Magisterial! Now compare it to this.
Barzagli and De Sciglio are so scared of Ronaldo's off the ball movement, that he baits and takes them for a dance to create that goal, he never should've reached that ball with ease, it's ABC of football, if the other team has a player that excels at losing his mark, just don't mark him, zonal marking and deal with him when he has the ball, minimize risks.
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