Books So what will G.R.R. Martin do differently? [GoT] [ASoIaF] [spoilers]

B20

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I am not talking about "pace it do it better" stuff, but about changes to the actual story.

We can see there are a lot of differences between the books and tv series up to the point where they caught up. Stuff like:
  • Sam never brought Gilly with him south to the citadel in the books
  • Lady Stoneheart was written out of the show
  • Aegon Targaryen (son of Elia Martell and Rhaegar) was written out of the show
  • Robb Stark's wife is probably still alive and has probably sired his child
  • Ser Barristan Selmy is still alive and well in the books
  • No sight of any Night King in the books yet
  • Missandei is 10 years old in the books and obviously has no romance with Grey Worm
  • Jaime and Bronn never hung out in the books and Bronn hasn't been seen since he refused to fight the mountain on Tyrion's behalf
  • Jaime never went to Dorne either in the books
  • Jaime and Cersei's relationship in the books is not the rubberband one of the show - Jaime distinctly loathes Cersei at last checkpoint for her crimes and for sleeping with other men.
  • Sansa never married Ramsay Bolton in the books. That was her childhood friend Jeyne Poole impersonating Arya Stark.
So what do we think that the writers of the show have changed in seasons 7 & 8 that will come out differently in The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring?
 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

The man isn't that great a writer. He created an epic world, he created so many great characters, he had the knack or working out things as he went. But ultimately, he had no finish line and that's the real reason he is never finishing the books. People can say what they want, but the truth is he knows that and is going to die without finishing them and he will take that world with him because it's better for him to pretend than let some other writer do it.
 
I'm pretty sure Mance Rayder is still alive in the books.
 
Redlambs said:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

The man isn't that great a writer. He created an epic world, he created so many great characters, he had the knack or working out things as he went. But ultimately, he had no finish line and that's the real reason he is never finishing the books. People can say what they want, but the truth is he knows that and is going to die without finishing them and he will take that world with him because it's better for him to pretend than let some other writer do it.
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That doesn't make any sense. He's not a great writer because he won't finish the books? That just means he is lazy. There is not a single bit of evidence that he doesn't know how to finish the books. In fact, the early drafts of ASOIAF pretty much show that he most likely knows the main points of the series and how everything is going to go down. He's just lazy and probably has no motivation to do it.
 
What are people thinking about the rumours he agreed to delay them til the show ended?
 
I'm very firmly in the he won't finished it, because he doesn't know how camp.

If he were 20 years younger, sure, but he's 70 and he doesn't exactly look like the epitome of health.
 
It would probably be easier to ask what he'd do the same.

I think:

Dany going bad will stay, as will Jaime and Cersei dying together, as will a fight between The Hound and The Mountain. Also whoever ends up on the throne will be the same. They're all endpoints for characters that the writers could aim towards, so the easiest things to bring across.

Beyond that it could all be different, not least in that it may never reach that point if the books never get released.

I mentioned it in the book thread but the fact that the TV show has changed so much (even for the worse) is a plus point if you watch/read both as you still know relatively little of what's going to happen in the books.
 
KirkDuyt said:
I'm very firmly in the he won't finished it, because he doesn't know how camp.

If he were 20 years younger, sure, but he's 70 and he doesn't exactly look like the epitome of health.
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70 is not that old nowadays even if you are a fat slob. I reckon he'll live for at least another 10 years.
 
My guess is that in the books Jaime will kill Cersei when she threatens to burn Kings Landing when it looks like they are going to lose.

Can see how he then leads Dany to a situation where she burns the city as punishment for something.
 
I've got a feeling he's a candidate for the celeb death pool thread soon.
 
Solius said:
What are people thinking about the rumours he agreed to delay them til the show ended?
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It wouldn't make sense to me. If they really wanted to ramp up the tension/interest in both the best thing to do would've been to time their releases with the last two seasons of the TV show.

I mean with GOT going on a 2 year break, the next book being released in between would've been a perfect time to cash out.

Now by the time his final book comes out the show will be a more distant memory.
 
The Cat said:
He is - and so is Stannis.
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Stannis' death was so weird in the shows. They just showed Brienne looking like she was about to kill him but we never actually saw it. I always thought they planned to bring him back.
 
- Daenerys and Jon probably won't even meet each other or will meet very late in the books. The conflict will be between Daenerys + Aegon and Cersie, with Daenerys going mad queen and then having another conflict with Aegon (second dance of dragons), where Aegon is killed (Dany might survive and be killed later by Jon, or get killed in the process too).

- It won't be ever revealed if Aegon is a Targaryan, a Blackfyre or just having Valyrian blood. No one bar Varys and Illyrio know it, and they won't tell us the truth.

- The Others (feck White Walkers) will be explained a bit more, and won't be just terminator death machines. Jon will be integral in either defeating them, or resolving the conflict.

- Dorne will join Aegon.

- One of Dany's dragons will be killed by Victarion/Euron with the horn or whatever artefact that can do so.

- Someone will use the Horn to bring the wall done. If Daenerys fights against the Others, one of her dragons will be killed.

- Bran will have a significantly larger role than just telling Jon that he is the heir. He also won't ever return to Winterfell.

- Cersei might be killed from Jaime, but that won't stop Dany going crazy.

- The Battle of Bastards either won't happen at all, or it will happen very differently with much weaker Boltons (because of the Grand Northern Conspiracy and getting heavy losses against Stannis) being defeated from Jon's armies (no Knights of the Vale there).

- There is no Night King in the books, so Arya won't finish the war by killing him.

- R'hllor and the Other one is obviously the same God/demon.

- Melisandre resurrects Jon (possibly by burning Shirene), but at the cost of Jon losing some of his humanity, and we will see a much colder and less passionate Jon.

The ending will be more or less the same with all three main conflicts (game of thrones, ice, fire) being finished, most of the characters killed, the realm being divided like in pre-Targaryans time, and the magic having left the world for good.
 
Solius said:
What are people thinking about the rumours he agreed to delay them til the show ended?
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KirkDuyt said:
I'm very firmly in the he won't finished it, because he doesn't know how camp.

If he were 20 years younger, sure, but he's 70 and he doesn't exactly look like the epitome of health.
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I think he said in an interview he's decided how to finish it and it's the same as the show barring minor characters.
 
Dumbat12 said:
That doesn't make any sense. He's not a great writer because he won't finish the books? That just means he is lazy. There is not a single bit of evidence that he doesn't know how to finish the books. In fact, the early drafts of ASOIAF pretty much show that he most likely knows the main points of the series and how everything is going to go down. He's just lazy and probably has no motivation to do it.
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I think people are being very harsh when they call him lazy. He certainly spends a lot of time doing other shit for no reason if that's the case.

Writing is a creative art, not something you can just grind out (though there's probably an element of that too). He's a slow writer who wrote himself into a complicated corner. At that point he has to write himself out of it in a way that he feels is creatively satisfying. He can't just come up with any random auld shit because people are waiting.

It's weird that you don't see people complaining about bands not releasing new music for years in the same way. Sometimes things take time, even an extraordinarily long amount of it. It ain't a 9-5 job.
 
sullydnl said:
I think people are being very harsh when they call him lazy. He certainly spends a lot of time doing other shit for no reason if that's the case.

Writing is a creative art, not something you can just grind out (though there's probably an element of that too). He's a slow writer who wrote himself into a complicated corner. At that point he has to write himself out of it in a way that he feels is creatively satisfying. He can't just come up with any random auld shit because people are waiting.

It's weird that you don't see people complaining about bands not releasing new music for years in the same way. Sometimes things take time, even an extraordinarily long amount of it. It ain't a 9-5 job.
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I think Rowling did that in the end. The final book was a sack of shit.
 
There's the whole Young Griff storyline that could add so many twists and turns.

Or it could be a total waste of everyone's time like Quentyn Martell.
 
Dumbat12 said:
That doesn't make any sense. He's not a great writer because he won't finish the books? That just means he is lazy. There is not a single bit of evidence that he doesn't know how to finish the books. In fact, the early drafts of ASOIAF pretty much show that he most likely knows the main points of the series and how everything is going to go down. He's just lazy and probably has no motivation to do it.
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Except I didn't say that, I don't even think that.

The rest of your post is just guess work. I respect the fact you think he is lazy, but I personally I think he knows he can't possibly finish it to any satisfactory degree but he is also too proud to let someone else do it. He has let it snowball and can't continue the story past lamprey pies and tits. But hey, one day we'll find out right?


sullydnl said:
I think people are being very harsh when they call him lazy.
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This is where stupid internet opinions snowball. Can we, for once, read the posts these people are replying to first?

I never called him lazy, my point is different. Let's not go down that particular route of debating a point never actually implied.

After all, you actually agree with me. I'm saying creatively he's reached a stalemate with himself and one that can't be rushed out of. I'm also saying, going by his actual work, that he doesn't even have a true endpoint in mind and as such is twisting in knots trying to find one. That explains why the books are not coming out, the weight of pressure now must be immense.
 
Redlambs said:
Except I didn't say that, I don't even think that.

The rest of your post is just guess work. I respect the fact you think he is lazy, but I personally I think he knows he can't possibly finish it to any satisfactory degree but he is also too proud to let someone else do it. He has let it snowball and can't continue the story past lamprey pies and tits. But hey, one day we'll find out right?




This is where stupid internet opinions snowball. Can we, for once, read the posts these people are replying to first?

I never called him lazy, my point is different. Let's not go down that particular route of debating a point never actually implied.

After all, you actually agree with me. I'm saying creatively he's reached a stalemate with himself and one that can't be rushed out of. I'm also saying, going by his actual work, that he doesn't even have a true endpoint in mind and as such is twisting in knots trying to find one. That explains why the books are not coming out, the weight of pressure now must be immense.
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The lazy bit was directed @Dumbat12's response rather than your post. :)
 
Shane88 said:
There's the whole Young Griff storyline that could add so many twists and turns.

Or it could be a total waste of everyone's time like Quentyn Martell.
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I couldn't believe Quentyn's storyline. It was a fantastically long tangent for incredible little advancement of story, if any at all.
Same with Tyrion's Adventures in the East. It's just about passing the time for him basically.

My main fear for the final two books is the same total lack of editorial oversight.
 
Redlambs said:
After all, you actually agree with me. I'm saying creatively he's reached a stalemate with himself and one that can't be rushed out of. I'm also saying, going by his actual work, that he doesn't even have a true endpoint in mind and as such is twisting in knots trying to find one. That explains why the books are not coming out, the weight of pressure now must be immense.
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With the amount of prophecy he's laced all the books with, I think he clearly has known all the major end points from day 1.

I think his issue is that he doesn't know how the characters are supposed to get there.
 
Lady Stoneheart's inclusion will impact the story some how. His approach to telling the White Walker's story will differ as well. He's hardly even mentioned the Night King in the book.
 
B20 said:
I couldn't believe Quentyn's storyline. It was a fantastically long tangent for incredible little advancement of story, if any at all.
Same with Tyrion's Adventures in the East. It's just about passing the time for him basically.

My main fear for the final two books is the same total lack of editorial oversight.
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Yeah but originally he was supposed to skip five years, right? I guess he didn't really know what to do with Tyrion for those five years so got him to.. do all that pointless stuff. Hopefully the > 5 years part he actually knows what to do. my worry is with those two books now he's introduced so much that probably wouldn't have been there if they weren't written that he hasn't a clue how to resolve them now.
 
B20 said:
With the amount of prophecy he's laced all the books with, I think he clearly has known all the major end points from day 1.

I think his issue is that he doesn't know how the characters are supposed to get there.
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This is true.

However, his end point clearly has changed too. The whole thing has snowballed and that's because he is such a great world creator!

In fact, he's a decent shout at a god. I mean, just like the christian god, he created a world but pretty much abandoned it after it got a bit too complex and people started asking questions...
 
Hopefully someone writes the last 2 and releases them online for free, and they're so awesome that GRRM has no hope of topping the effort, and he writes an very strongly worded blog post. That would nearly be as satisfying as drop kicking him out of a glass window on the ground floor
 
Personally, I reckon Aegon/Griff will join up with Dany soon enough and fall in love. They go to the wall together, meet up with Jon Snow for a dramatic reveal of his ancestry. The three of them fight the Others together. Aegon dies alongside his dragon, Danys is heartbroken. Jon and Dany are close, but awkward and certainly not in love. Similar tensions over his claim to the throne. But they still go to fight Cersei in King's Landing. Second dragon bites the dust as in the show.

Dany goes batshit and torches king's landing. Jaime strangles Cersei to death during the battle.

Arya kills Danaerys and/or Drogos afterwards, but not before Jon Snow bites the bullet. End of the Targaryen line.

King's Landing is abandoned as is any attempt to seat anyone on the Iron Throne. The Seven Kingdoms go back to being independent realms.
 
B20 said:
I couldn't believe Quentyn's storyline. It was a fantastically long tangent for incredible little advancement of story, if any at all.
Same with Tyrion's Adventures in the East. It's just about passing the time for him basically.

My main fear for the final two books is the same total lack of editorial oversight.
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It will almost certainly cause Dorne to go in team Aegon instead of team Daenerys. By the time Daenerys goes to Westeros, Aegon might easily be the strongest power there (having already occupied Stormlands, allying himself with Dorne and having the Golden Company at his disposal). Likely a 50k+ army.
 
Revan said:
It will almost certainly cause Dorne to go in team Aegon instead of team Daenerys. By the time Daenerys goes to Westeros, Aegon might easily be the strongest power there (having already occupied Stormlands, allying himself with Dorne and having the Golden Company at his disposal). Likely a 50k+ army.
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Which is a pretty small gain for such a long plotline.
 
B20 said:
Personally, I reckon Aegon/Griff will join up with Dany soon enough and fall in love. They go to the wall together, meet up with Jon Snow for a dramatic reveal of his ancestry. The three of them fight the Others together. Aegon dies alongside his dragon, Danys is heartbroken. Jon and Dany are close, but awkward and certainly not in love. Similar tensions over his claim to the throne. But they still go to fight Cersei in King's Landing. Second dragon bites the dust as in the show.

Dany goes batshit and torches king's landing. Jaime strangles Cersei to death during the battle.

Arya kills Danaerys and/or Drogos afterwards, but not before Jon Snow bites the bullet. End of the Targaryen line.

King's Landing is abandoned as is any attempt to seat anyone on the Iron Throne. The Seven Kingdoms go back to being independent realms.
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I like this, but the only problem is that there is no 'Second Dance of Dragons' which has been heavily implied. There is gonna be Dany vs Aegon or Dany vs Jon.
 
Revan said:
He had only 4 chapters.
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I know that fantasy epics these days scoff at 1000 page lengths, but to my mind 48 pages is a sizeable chunk of a book.
 
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