So we should go with proven managers, again most of them worked in a club with proper structure and we don't have that. Most of them won't be involved in transfers and they work with DoF and we don't have one. So what you are going is pointing fingers at wrong man. If we don't have structure then that should be fixed, instead of saying we shouldn't appoint xyz manager because we don't have structure.
What’s the reasons for keeping Ole?
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So we should go with proven managers, again most of them worked in a club with proper structure and we don't have that. Most of them won't be involved in transfers and they work with DoF and we don't have one. So what you are going is pointing fingers at wrong man. If we don't have structure then that should be fixed, instead of saying we shouldn't appoint xyz manager because we don't have structure.
A proven manager can make the team punch above its weight. We've seen it numerous times under Fergie. So far both at Cardiff and United I haven't seen that from Ole. We don't have a great team, neither great players. Appointing average and inexperienced manager IMO has much less chance of getting us punching above our weight than doing it City's way - hiring Pep(best at the time) and giving him money to fix the mess.
If a manager doesn't get the results straight away - the proven one has the history and credentials to fall back on, the inexperienced one doesn't have either. It's much less likely that Ole would make it than Klopp or Pep type who will finish outside top 4 next year.
It's like going to the casino and betting on red or black(proven manager), whilst with Ole you are pinning your hopes on the green.
So we don't have great team/players, we don't have structure to help managers. That's why I'm saying you are pointing fingers are wrong people. Obviously Liverpool and City are so far ahead of others, it's more likely that Ole will finish behind them. Forget Ole, Jose who had great CV would have finished below them.
For me experience counts but it's not be all and end all. Anyways, I'm sure you made your points and I have made mine. Don't think we are going to change our opinion anytime soon.
Aye. We will see how the transfers will pan out for more food for thought. That and pre season - which would be important indication of where our football will go under Ole.
No, shouldn't ignore it. It's an interesting fact/point to make.
But Barcelona's structure isn't comparable to United's. We don't have a specific "philosophy" pervading the whole setup. The "he knows the club/system" argument makes more sense when there is a clear system in place.
I like the fact that Ole comes from a certain place, don't get me wrong. But how much it actually means is a different matter. He can't rely on a proven and comprehensive setup that is already in place. Like I've said many times, the "United way" is a vague enough concept. There is no "Fergie school" that emerged from a "Busby school" which you can compare to the Dutch schools at Barcelona.
For arguments sake - let's say Pep or Klopp went temporarily insane and quit their jobs to join United....what would they find? How would they do?
Both are great managers and have done fantastically well but the foundation for their success was laid by Tkiki Begiristain and Michael Edwards. They quickly reached a point where a style of play had been identified and then players were signed who fit within this framework
I honestly believe that even with Pep or Klopp in charge next year we still wouldn't make top four
Both are great managers and have done fantastically well but the foundation for their success was laid by Tkiki Begiristain and Michael Edwards. They quickly reached a point where a style of play had been identified and then players were signed who fit within this framework
I honestly believe that even with Pep or Klopp in charge next year we still wouldn't make top four
The 'United Way' is about entertaining. Problem with that is that if you go on a run of bad results it stops being entertaining. Really in this day and age, not 50 years ago, the 'United Way is about winning. Ole has the task of making both meanings of that overused word happen.
That is pretty much how I feel.
We are going forward purely based on hope.
Hope the Ole is able to arrest the awful decline and actually take us forward.
I am not a betting man but based upon the terrible end of season results and the massive changes that are required I would have to say that 50/50 are highly optimistic odds.
Not sure why folk are paying too much attention to Ole's time at Cardiff, he got the gig with them languishing 17th in the League and 3 of their next 6 fixtures were away to City, United and Tottenham where they were never going to get points and from then on they were doomed. Winning two tricky away matches in the FA Cup(incl. Newcastle United) didn't help with their survival either.
And yep they didn't start great the next season but historically it's the hardest League to get out of in Europe so no great surprise he struggled. He probably deserved more than 7/46 League matches to turn it around. Very few teams that get promoted start off well and keep it going for the season, a lot come from absolutely nowhere.
On his transfers in January, he went to players he'd worked with previously(Fabio, Eikrem, Berget, Zaha and Dæhli), something most other Managers would have done in the same situation.
And on his transfers in the Summer, as has been pointed out previously those signed for any amount of Money, but still peanuts in the great scheme of things, are still at the club.
And yep they didn't start great the next season but historically it's the hardest League to get out of in Europe so no great surprise he struggled. He probably deserved more than 7/46 League matches to turn it around. Very few teams that get promoted start off well and keep it going for the season, a lot come from absolutely nowhere.
On his transfers in January, he went to players he'd worked with previously(Fabio, Eikrem, Berget, Zaha and Dæhli), something most other Managers would have done in the same situation.
And on his transfers in the Summer, as has been pointed out previously those signed for any amount of Money, but still peanuts in the great scheme of things, are still at the club.
Indeed. Not an easy task, to make the understatement of the year.
I do think, though, that if he gets the "entertainment" part down, he'll be cut some slack from a considerable portion of the fan base provided the results part isn't too shocking.
The real question is what his remit is from his employers' perspective. Building a team capable of properly challenging takes time if the starting point isn't ideal (and it clearly isn't for Ole).
If we look at Klopp's time at Liverpool, he was nowhere near actually challenging (on all fronts) until this season.
That is the bit we really do not know. As you say Liverpool have actually shown patience with Klopp and let him build his side and backed him when he needed it. If our lot have said it has to be Top 4 then Ole might have a problem as they are under-estimating how much this side needs dismantling and rebuilding.
Yes.
Way I see it, the competition domestically (the money at the top, the quality of both players and managers) is now so stiff that it doesn't make sense to insist on top four as a minimum if the starting point is a team in need of - as you say - dismantling and rebuilding.
Continuous, identifiable progress should be the benchmark, in my opinion, not a fixed minimum in terms of table finish.
Personally, I'll be looking at what players he brings in - that's the obvious one. Then, who he actively wants to get rid of. And then, once things get serious, what sort of football he stands for - consistently.
As far as I'm concerned, he could start worrying me seriously on any of those points soon enough, but for the time being I'm more than willing to give him a chance.
I just like watching @roonster09 absolutely own this debate. I’m sorry @Enigma_87, you are passionate, determined and smart, but it’s clear you aren’t giving Ole a fair chance.
It’s been 7 seasons since SAF retired. In the meantime, more money has poured into the Prem, it’s a top 6 rather than a top 4, and it’s the most competitive top league in the world by a wide margin. I think to assume, without the greatest manager of all time, that we’d just continue to clock league, domestic and European trophies at the same rate as the SAF era isn’t realistic.
Klopp just won his first trophy after 4 seasons at Liverpool. Spurs haven’t won a trophy under Poch yet. In the meantime, we’ve won 3 under four different managers. We’ve gone the handpicked successor route (Moyes) and two top managers with CLs on their CVs (I supported the LvG and Jose hires), but the football has been unattractive. We’ve brought in mercenaries without a culture and leader on the pitch (apart from Zlatan), and still failed to live up to expectations.
Personally, I’d like to build with youth, build up our academy, get the Man United culture back and build a platform for success. I feel strongly that if we hired Allegri or Nagelsmann or whoever, it will just be another short term fix because those managers will need to prove themselves immediately.
Ole is here now. I hope the board will give him two years at least to prove himself and back him like they did the other managers.
To constantly rail on Ole that he’s not good enough is just detrimental to the cause. I mean, if it’s that important to you that we challenge IMMEDIATELY, then maybe start supporting PSG, Bayern or Juventus. Otherwise, we’d like you to come aboard the Ole bandwagon. There’s plenty of room.
It’s been 7 seasons since SAF retired. In the meantime, more money has poured into the Prem, it’s a top 6 rather than a top 4, and it’s the most competitive top league in the world by a wide margin. I think to assume, without the greatest manager of all time, that we’d just continue to clock league, domestic and European trophies at the same rate as the SAF era isn’t realistic.
Klopp just won his first trophy after 4 seasons at Liverpool. Spurs haven’t won a trophy under Poch yet. In the meantime, we’ve won 3 under four different managers. We’ve gone the handpicked successor route (Moyes) and two top managers with CLs on their CVs (I supported the LvG and Jose hires), but the football has been unattractive. We’ve brought in mercenaries without a culture and leader on the pitch (apart from Zlatan), and still failed to live up to expectations.
Personally, I’d like to build with youth, build up our academy, get the Man United culture back and build a platform for success. I feel strongly that if we hired Allegri or Nagelsmann or whoever, it will just be another short term fix because those managers will need to prove themselves immediately.
Ole is here now. I hope the board will give him two years at least to prove himself and back him like they did the other managers.
To constantly rail on Ole that he’s not good enough is just detrimental to the cause. I mean, if it’s that important to you that we challenge IMMEDIATELY, then maybe start supporting PSG, Bayern or Juventus. Otherwise, we’d like you to come aboard the Ole bandwagon. There’s plenty of room.
Ooops, although it has happened very recently, my brain just hasn't processed the Champions League trophy to Liverpool. I'd also forgotten about the Bundesliga title.
But how on earth would we have gotten Klopp? Jose had far more of a pedigree and what could we have done to get Klopp instead of Ole? Waiting before offering Ole the job but was Klopp ever a possibility?
The debate can't be 'owned' at this point - the coming season will flat out show who is correct and incorrect. Before then, it's all just opinions, and mostly going 'round in circles.
After that, we will know.
Within 10 months (maybe less) it'll be absolutely clear whether the 'Ole In' faction were right or whether they were completely incorrect.
The difference is that posters like myself, @Enigma_87 etc will actively hope to be wrong - whereas the 'Ole at the Wheel' types will obviously hope to be right, and if they are wrong, we will see if they have the character to say, 'fair enough, you lot were right'.
I'd imagine some will and others will simply attempt to sidestep the fact.
There are a lot of posters becoming spiteful, and not really even looking to gain anything from the conversation other than venting at each other.
There are also, almost certainly, oppo WUM accounts in the 'Ole In' brigade - I've seen posters on RAWK and Blue Moon etc bragging about wumming on here and other Utd sites - and they are all, obviously in favour of Ole being given the job - and keeping the job.
There is no need to give credit to anyone for being right or wrong. If Ole is not the right man for the job then I will just say we should get rid of him, just like how I argued in favor of Jose and Van Gaal and once I thought they are not up for the job, I argued against them saying it's not working and they should be moved on.
Tbh you posts are hilariously kiddish, branding "Ole In" fans as opposition WUMs or wanting some token certificate for turning against manager before other fans.
You're always going to get that whoever the Manager is, and at whatever club.
The support Jose received after 'that' Sevilla post-match presser is all the proof you need it goes on.
That's great, but hopefully you're actually right and don't need to hold your hands up!
The 2nd part of the post is needless, and veering again toward spiteful, unfriendly angle - it's something that people really need to just step back from, particularly this Summer.
There are WUMs on here peddling the Ole In angle, but I've not even come close to stating that all Ole in fans are in this category, and you know that.
But yeah, we'll agree to disagree on the merits of Solskjaer for now - hopefully you're right next season. Cheers.
I understand what you're getting at - but this is a wild, totally out there appointment, and one that every oppo was literally ravenous for the club to make - and is now ravenous for us to stick with.
You don't get Utd fans signing up to RAWK to say 'keep Klopp here, lets get behind Klopp', or signing up to Blue Moon to say, 'come on guys, Guardiola needs another season'.
You won't see Arse fans signing up to the Fighting Cock to say, 'we must stand by Pochettino'.
Because they're sensible, clearly good managers who oppos would rather were sacked.
You did however have the 'K.R.A.P campaign', once Benitez had lost it at Liverpool...
But again, as I've made clear to the poster above, I'm obviously not suggesting that every 'Ole In' poster is a WUM, or even the majority.
Until they introduce a structure and more competence behind the scenes they are going to keep making same mistakes. If they didn’t give the job to Ole who would we have appointed?. No way we’d have got Poch, no obvious candidates out of contract so they’d have been clueless. Most likely appointment would probably have been Conte.
We’ll only make right choice if it falls in our laps, a bit like Liverpool did with Klopp. I don’t expect Ole to still be here in a year but I also expect another poor replacement. The people making the football decisions aren’t qualified and between Woodward and the owners aren’t even competent enough to recognise that.
It’s become comical, everyone is expecting a big rebuild on and off the pitch but it’s not going to happen. Think next season will be the worse than the last six because the club will be toxic and probably in crisis instantly.
We’ll only make right choice if it falls in our laps, a bit like Liverpool did with Klopp. I don’t expect Ole to still be here in a year but I also expect another poor replacement. The people making the football decisions aren’t qualified and between Woodward and the owners aren’t even competent enough to recognise that.
It’s become comical, everyone is expecting a big rebuild on and off the pitch but it’s not going to happen. Think next season will be the worse than the last six because the club will be toxic and probably in crisis instantly.
I wasn't... I was just admitting to not wanted Alex Ferguson in 1986 -- success in Scotland didn't automatically guarantee success in England
I don't think anybody genuinely thought you were suggesting that.
Anyhoo, I was all for sticking with Ole because to bin him so soon after giving him a contract would just be wrong, and I don't care if that's what clubs who are a law unto themselves like Real Madrid would do, but if we can get this geezer we should bin Ole like yesterday, somebody Angel Gomes and Dillon Hoogewerf wouldn't have to look up to, literally
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/diego-maradona-manchester-united-manager-paul-pogba
I don’t consider it competition and I believe @roonster09 doesn’t either.
At the end of the day we both want the same thing and that is United to be successful. I actually thing in the grand scheme of things our standards to be quite close to what we expect come next season and from the manager as well.
The difference between us is that we’re in two different sides of the debate - which is again fair. Right or wrong we will see come six months or years time.
As @Rhyme Animal said I’ll be here come that time and most gladly accept it if proven wrong - have no problems with that.
My stance is clear and the reason I think he should be sacked is for the better in the long term- again personal view.
I value the debate as it brings different perspectives and generally if it is constructive it’s what these boards are for. Hope it’s the same for @roonster09 .
Sometimes I and other fans(regardless of which side of the debate are) can be more driven and more passionate but that’s normal
Title of the thread is "What's the reasons for keeping Ole". Not "Will Ole Succeed or Fail". So, yeah, it is a debate, and there can be a clear winner.
I guess my point is, despite your reasons for not wanting Ole at the helm (which I mostly don't agree with, but that doesn't mean they are illogical), what purpose do you plan to serve by being so vocal about it? I can't see an upside, other than "I told you so" which doesn't seem like a legitimate reason, and selfish at that.
At what point in the project will you start calling for his firing? 3 matches? October? December? Furthermore, what is the standard of success that you require to support Ole? CL title? Top 4? Carabao Cup? Or the next legendary manager for the greatest club in the world? It's an impossible standard, and with fans with such sky-high expectations, IF Ole fails and we bring in another manager, how reluctant will top managers be to come to Man United given the poisoned chalice? Like I said, no upside, other than a selfish one.
I don’t consider it competition and I believe @roonster09 doesn’t either.
At the end of the day we both want the same thing and that is United to be successful. I actually thing in the grand scheme of things our standards to be quite close to what we expect come next season and from the manager as well.
The difference between us is that we’re in two different sides of the debate - which is again fair. Right or wrong we will see come six months or years time.
As @Rhyme Animal said I’ll be here come that time and most gladly accept it if proven wrong - have no problems with that.
My stance is clear and the reason I think he should be sacked is for the better in the long term- again personal view.
I value the debate as it brings different perspectives and generally if it is constructive it’s what these boards are for. Hope it’s the same for @roonster09 .
Sometimes I and other fans(regardless of which side of the debate are) can be more driven and more passionate but that’s normal
It probably isn't a competition, and the debate drives lots of traffic to the site and adds to the online community.
I guess my mood drops as I see thread after thread about this. It's naive to think that everyone can be on board and supportive. I'm sure you'll be yelling your lungs out at OT or at home or at the pub when we play well, and devastated when we play like we did at Everton. It is a roller coaster.
We all want to reclaim our rightful place competing annually for the biggest trophies. What that means, post-SAF, whether it's the Real Madrid / PSG model or the Ajax/Barca model is certainly a debate, and I'm not sure there is a right answer. I do know that the more divided the fans, board and club feels or acts, the more it affects our ability to get back to the top.
We all care about the club- we just have different opinions on how to achieve that.
The reason for the thread isn’t to say ‘I told you so’ its Just to honestly have a discussion and see what others think about it. I won’t be gloating if he gets fired at all. Just disappointed & frustrated we didn’t go another route earlier.
I think we underestimate the pull we have- Real Madrid fire managers constantly but still attract the best as it’s something you can’t turn down & I just think we should be searching for a progressive, ambitious, qualified manager who has a proven style of play to make a new fresh mark at Old Trafford Instead of us going back to the past with an ex player.
It has started already.
"Fall Guy"
http://www.redcafe.net/threads/ole-gunnar-solskjær-permanent-manager.446090/page-249#post-24370652
It doesn't even make sense to link that post.Also at least tag the person when you talk about someone's post.
@SqueakyWeasel