Contact lost with Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 | 8th March 2014

[sglowrider]

I can’t wrap my mind around the thought process of killing all those people just to kill yourself.

There are bridges or tall buildings in Malaysia. Why not try that first? Failing that, ok then he may look into other options. Why get others involved in his madness.

Having said that its quite common to pin the blame onto pilots. A cheaper option than blaming the aircraft manufacturer. I worked in aerospace many years ago.

I knew one crash investigator from the aircraft manufacturer (I was trying to flog off some equipment onto their planes) --- and he told me of a case where they tried to blame the pilot again -- this time a 4months pregnant female pilot. Wink. Wink.

They tried to insinuate that she was depressed as her husband/BF was away or had relationship issues etc which was the motivation to the crash.

 

[Wibble]

That theory isn't new and if that asshole wanted to kill himself, there are better ways to go without taking the lives of 300 people even if he's committing insurance fraud on the way.

Yet there are a number of cases of pilot suicide. The flight simulation is particularly convincing evidence imo.

 

[Carolina Red]

There are bridges or tall buildings in Malaysia. Why not try that first? Failing that, ok then he may look into other options. Why get others involved in his madness.

Having said that its quite common to pin the blame onto pilots. A cheaper option than blaming the aircraft manufacturer. I worked in aerospace many years ago.

I knew one crash investigator from the aircraft manufacturer (I was trying to flog off some equipment onto their planes) --- and he told me of a case where they tried to blame the pilot again -- this time a 4months pregnant female pilot. Wink. Wink.

They tried to insinuate that she was depressed as her husband/BF was away or had relationship issues etc which was the motivation to the crash.

Was it Boeing? Because at this point I don’t know that I’d put it past them.

 

[sglowrider]

Was it Boeing? Because at this point I don’t know that I’d put it past them.

No. European-based platform. I did flog off some of the equipment onto that crappy platform. Funniest thing was that they had me telling them the best place to install the equipment. I was using my hands to mimic the airflow of the wing etc. (I went to IU Kelly School of Business!)

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Yet there are a number of cases of pilot suicide. The flight simulation is particularly convincing evidence imo.

To clarify, I'm not saying that's not what happened but the pilot is an absolute asshole if that's how it went down.

 

[sglowrider]

To clarify, I'm not saying that's not what happened but the pilot is an absolute asshole if that's how it went down.

I think its unlikely -- depressed from getting his pecker/hands caught in the cookie jar? Who hasnt done that and its not that big a deal to want to kill yourself and 300+ others.

 

[Wibble]

To clarify, I'm not saying that's not what happened but the pilot is an absolute asshole if that's how it went down.

It is a special kind of fecked up to plan and execute a suicide that takes an entire plane full of people with you.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

It is a special kind of fecked up to plan and execute a suicide that takes an entire plane full of people with you.

Only reason I can think of is insurance fraud where they won't pay out if it's suicide but it's harder to prove suicide if the plane crashes remotely and they can't recover black boxes.

 

[sglowrider]

It is a special kind of fecked up to plan and execute a suicide that takes an entire plane full of people with you.

Exactly. That's why I have my doubts.

He had a pool at his condo. Try that for size.

Why go through all that effort just to kill yourself.

 

[Wibble]

I think its unlikely -- depressed from getting his pecker/hands caught in the cookie jar? Who hasnt done that and its not that big a deal to want to kill yourself and 300+ others.

I'd say it is close to a certainty.

Nothing would make me want to kill lots of ither peopke if I were suicidal (I hope) but there are a number of other confirmed similar cases and there are no real alternative explanations.

 

[sglowrider]

I'd say it is close to.a certainty.

Nothing would make me want to kill lots of ither peopke if I were suicidal (I hope) but there are a number of other confirmed similar cases and there are no real alternative explanations.

Angry at the wife isn't enough to dip the plane into the Indian Ocean. It will have to be something much deeper like angry at some the airline/gov't etc possible.

If your brain is that frazzled, how does he function to fly a plane or wouldn't any colleagues have noticed?

 

[Wibble]

Exactly. That's why I have my doubts.

He had a pool at his condo. Try that for size.

Why go through all that effort just to kill yourself.

Why did the Egypt Air, Silk Air and Germanwings pilots kill everyone? It is fecked up but it happens.

 

[Carolina Red]

Angry at the wife isn't enough to dip the plane into the Indian Ocean.

Depression is.

 

[Abizzz]

So after a page was added I decided to read that recent article... Or the first 10 paragraphs and the conclusion to be precise.

Nothing new as far as I can tell (I skipped over the middle because it's just emotive rehashing of well known stuff), and no firm evidence. People need an explanation so they blame the pilot.

 

[MDFC Manager]

There's a case in Greece where the plane lost pressurisation and just flew on like a ghost. The worst part is one steward was alive and tried to control it but his own oxygen failed* before he could. Airforce jets that pulled up alongside could see through the windows - everyone in their seats, no movement, the plane just flying in a straight line.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522


*re-read, its even worse: he was conscious, waved to the military jets, and was trying to bring it under control when the fuel got exhausted and the plane hit the ground.

I've seen this recreation on an episode of Air Crash Investigations.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Right on time as Boeing announces some new deals and stock goes up....

 

[Wibble]

So after a page was added I decided to read that recent article... Or the first 10 paragraphs and the conclusion to be precise.

Nothing new as far as I can tell (I skipped over the middle because it's just emotive rehashing of well known stuff), and no firm evidence. People need an explanation so they blame the pilot.

The fact thay he not only plotted (practiced) the route the plane took on his simulator but, unlike every other flight he simulated, also manually intervened to skip through the route is hugely suspicious. When combined with every other scenario being highly improbable this makes pilot suicide about the only remaining possibility.

 

[Abizzz]

The fact thay he not only plotted (practiced) the route the plane took on his simulator but, unlike every other flight he simulated, also manually intervened to skip through the route is hugely suspicious. When combined with every other scenario being highly improbable this makes pilot suicide about the only remaining possibility.

I disagree. He simulated flights on his home flight simulator. One was South/West towards the Indian ocean from his home airport. He's probably done hundreds of flights in every possible direction, it's what he did for fun... I don't think people would attribute this so much significance if there was any other lead to follow.

I'm not sure how you would rule out other possibilities given that there is no evidence. It's one possibility, but anything from a hijacking to technical problem could have caused it. Given recent 737 and 787 troubles I wouldn't rule anything out.

 

[Wibble]

I disagree. He simulated flights on his home flight simulator. One was South/West towards the Indian ocean from his home airport. He's probably done hundreds of flights in every possible direction, it's what he did for fun... I don't think people would attribute this so much significance if there was any other lead to follow.

I'm not sure how you would rule out other possibilities given that there is no evidence. It's one possibility, but anything from a hijacking to technical problem could have caused it. Given recent 737 and 787 troubles I wouldn't rule anything out.

He simulated a flight that more or less followed the route we know the plane took. Of the hundreds or more he simulated this was the only one he manually intervened with until thr fuel ran out. The only one.

It wasn't a hijacking and the turning off and on of electrical systems means someone was still alive and flying the plane well into the flight.

It is the only plausible explanation. It can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt but it seems highly likely.

 

[Abizzz]

He simulated a flight that more or less followed the route we know the plane took. Of the hundreds or more he simulated this was the only one he manually intervened with. The only one.

It wasn't a hijacking and the turning off and on of electrical systems means someone was still alive and flying the plane well into the flight.

It is the only plausible explanation. It can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt but it seems highly likely.

I read the manually intervened bit but I find it hard to believe that a pilot would get all the kit to build a flight simulator and then always let the autopilot fly. What would be the point of that?
I'm not sure how we know for certain that it wasn't a hijacking. We only know that the investigators don't think any of the people that they knew were on board had a reason or means to do it.

Any number of faults could have caused the transmissions to stop. From a cockpit fire to unknown software problems or a pilot wanting to kill himself. I'm not saying that he didn't do it, just that i'm not convinced by what I've seen up to now, and don't think it's any more plausible than the other scenarios

 

[Lj82]

Why did the Egypt Air, Silk Air and Germanwings pilots kill everyone? It is fecked up but it happens.

The Silk Air incident was never truly solved. But I remember watching an episode on the Silk Air incident where they debunked the theory that the pilot was suicidal. When the theory that the pilot was suicidal was first touted, they were cutting things like how he was in financial distress, but the investigators found that he had cleared his debts and was in good mental shape.

Then the show went on to highlight that three pattern by which the Silk Air plane crashed into the river was exactly the same as another plane of the same model, and they suspect that it was a problem with the plane rather than the pilot. They tried to access the original investigation files of the Silk Air incident but they were mysteriously destroyed, which raises suspicions that someone is trying to do a cover up job. Shame though the truth behind it never came to light.

 

[Florida Man]

Right on time as Boeing announces some new deals and stock goes up....

I don't quite understand. Are you implying this article is good or bad for Boeing?

 

[adexkola]

How long before airplanes AI can forcibly take control of the plane if the pilot is acting or doing anything unusual?

that's (kind of) what caused the Ethiopian Airlines crash

 

[berbatrick]

I've seen this recreation on an episode of Air Crash Investigations.

same

 

[berbatrick]

I read the manually intervened bit but I find it hard to believe that a pilot would get all the kit to build a flight simulator and then always let the autopilot fly. What would be the point of that?

The takeoffs and landings are always at least partly manual. The flying through long distances at cruising speeds is almost totally automated. So I'd guess he skipped over those parts

 

[utdalltheway]

that's (kind of) what caused the Ethiopian Airlines crash

yeah, not a great idea.

 

[bleedred]

Only reason I can think of is insurance fraud where they won't pay out if it's suicide but it's harder to prove suicide if the plane crashes remotely and they can't recover black boxes.

Why should he care about the insurance?. If he thought someone was worth having his insurance money, then he would have thought they were worth living his life??

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Generally, I think it's safe to assume that pilot suicide by aircrash is a situation where the passengers are an afterthought. The pilot is implementing a method of suicide that they see as fool proof. If some motive for getting back at their employer can be established then passengers can be included in the equation but consideration for others isn't high up on the suicidal person's list of priorities from what I've been led to believe.

 

[MDFC Manager]

same

That episode did freak my out a bit to be honest!

 

[bleedred]

I read the manually intervened bit but I find it hard to believe that a pilot would get all the kit to build a flight simulator and then always let the autopilot fly. What would be the point of that?
I'm not sure how we know for certain that it wasn't a hijacking. We only know that the investigators don't think any of the people that they knew were on board had a reason or means to do it.

Any number of faults could have caused the transmissions to stop. From a cockpit fire to unknown software problems or a pilot wanting to kill himself. I'm not saying that he didn't do it, just that i'm not convinced by what I've seen up to now, and don't think it's any more plausible than the other scenarios

1) Nobody has claimed responsibility.
2) There was no distress signal.
3) has there been any incident in history where a hijacker just crashes plane into sea after few hours, no demands, nothing??

Its all described in the article.

As for cockpit fire, how can a plane survive so long in the air?

Software issues- Why has this not come up in any other 777's. With the 737 max issue now, we had multiple carriers reporting it.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Why should he care about the insurance?. If he thought someone was worth having his insurance money, then he would have thought they were worth living his life??

I'm saying he probably lost love for life but also had dependants who relied on him to provide for them.

 

[sullydnl]

Why should he care about the insurance?. If he thought someone was worth having his insurance money, then he would have thought they were worth living his life??

People do it all the time. I suppose they think the money is of more value to them than they are.

 

[Abizzz]

1) Nobody has claimed responsibility.
2) There was no distress signal.
3) has there been any incident in history where a hijacker just crashes plane into sea after few hours, no demands, nothing??

All of which is equally true for the pilot suicide theory. Why fly it for hours before killing yourself? There have been hijackers that crashed because they went out of fuel. Perhaps hijackers attempted to crash it into Diego Garcia (or some other countries military ship) ?

At this point the fact that we know nothing is suspicious itself.

Its all described in the article.

As for cockpit fire, how can a plane survive so long in the air?

Software issues- Why has this not come up in any other 777's. With the 737 max issue now, we had multiple carriers reporting it.

A well balanced plane doesn't need much from the cockpit to stay in the air. Engines don't just flame out and if it's well trimmed it may fly for hours without input from the cockpit. The parts of the article I read don't convince me (it's basically just a recap of things that are well known).
With the recent 737 troubles people only really started believing that it's a airplane problem after the 2nd crash. Plenty blamed the pilot of the Lion Air crash too initially.

I hope I'll never be blamed for suicide mass murder just because people can't figure out what happened.

 

[Wibble]

1) Nobody has claimed responsibility.
2) There was no distress signal.
3) has there been any incident in history where a hijacker just crashes plane into sea after few hours, no demands, nothing??

Its all described in the article.

As for cockpit fire, how can a plane survive so long in the air?

Software issues- Why has this not come up in any other 777's. With the 737 max issue now, we had multiple carriers reporting it.

None of those are plausible explanations of this incident.

 

[Carolina Red]

Why fly it for hours before killing yourself?

That was explained in the article. Insurance fraud. Fly far enough and the black box won’t be found, and the likelihood is that while you may be suspected of suicide, it can’t be proven.

I hope I'll never be blamed for suicide mass murder just because people can't figure out what happened.

That’s far from what is happening with this flight.

 

[Abizzz]

That was explained in the article. Insurance fraud. Fly far enough and the black box won’t be found, and the likelihood is that while you may be suspected of suicide, it can’t be proven.

Going full throttle into the side of a mountain would have been a far far safer way to destroy the blackbox than hoping it just won't be found just because you flew somewhere remote. Also if you're going to rip off your insurance why not do it a way that you get to live?
The article is just a lot of speculation, I've now read most of the middle too, but can't bring myself to believe the authors conclusions. Just look at this pearl:

In the case of MH370, it is difficult to see the co-pilot as the perpetrator. He was young and optimistic, and reportedly planning to get married. He had no history of any sort of trouble, dissent, or doubts. He was not a German signing on to a life in a declining industry of budget airlines, low salaries, and even lower prestige. He was flying a glorious Boeing 777

That’s far from what is happening with this flight.

I am not so sure.

Edit: To be clear I have no bone in this and absolutely wouldn't rule out pilot suicide, I just don't agree that we have information to say it was with any kind of certainty. I guess others interpret the evidence differently and come to different conclusions, I have no problem with that.

 

[bleedred]

All of which is equally true for the pilot suicide theory. Why fly it for hours before killing yourself? There have been hijackers that crashed because they went out of fuel. Perhaps hijackers attempted to crash it into Diego Garcia (or some other countries military ship) ?

At this point the fact that we know nothing is suspicious itself.

With no one making a distress call for hours?

A well balanced plane doesn't need much from the cockpit to stay in the air. Engines don't just flame out and if it's well trimmed it may fly for hours without input from the cockpit. The parts of the article I read don't convince me (it's basically just a recap of things that are well known).
With the recent 737 troubles people only really started believing that it's a airplane problem after the 2nd crash. Plenty blamed the pilot of the Lion Air crash too initially.

I hope I'll never be blamed for suicide mass murder just because people can't figure out what happened.

Again, if that were the case, no one noticed it for HOURS?.

How does that explain the rapid ascent to 40,000 feet and descent?.

 

[bleedred]

Going full throttle into the side of a mountain would have been a far far safer way to destroy the blackbox than hoping it just won't be found just because you flew somewhere remote. Also if you're going to rip off your insurance why not do it a way that you get to live?
The article is just a lot of speculation, I've now read most of the middle too, but can't bring myself to believe the authors conclusions. Just look at this pearl:



I am not so sure.

Edit: To be clear I have no bone in this and absolutely wouldn't rule out pilot suicide, I just don't agree that we have information to say it was with any kind of certainty. I guess others interpret the evidence differently and come to different conclusions, I have no problem with that.

Nobody can and nobody has said that. But simplest explanation is the one with least possible assumption.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Maybe I missed this in the article, was a motive to commit insurance fraud noted anywhere?

Plenty of life insurance policies cover suicide depending on the terms and conditions. Many will with the only condition being that your policy has been in effect for more than two years. As an independent consumer, you can pick and choose the policy that's right for you and, if you're playing a long game, kill yourself and take care of your loved one's financial needs and it's all kosher.

He'd likely have had a group life policy through his employer, too, and this is where suicide might become more important. Work policies tend to pay double or even triple the benefit if you are killed while you're on the clock. Again, the specific t&c's would be important to know but I could see a policy for pilots having an exclusion for suicide.

Who this benefits more, the beneficiary or the policy holder, may be debatable.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

So after a page was added I decided to read that recent article... Or the first 10 paragraphs and the conclusion to be precise.

Nothing new as far as I can tell (I skipped over the middle because it's just emotive rehashing of well known stuff), and no firm evidence. People need an explanation so they blame the pilot.

There’s are like 3 posts on this page where you’ve missed a bit of clarifying info from the article.

Why not read the whole thing?