Outside of the three promoted teams. Name a premier league team that our starting midfield is categorically better than.
( I got Brighton and Burnley)
We are in trouble
( I got Brighton and Burnley)
We are in trouble
Our Midfield
- Thread starter bond19821982
- Start date
Matic-Pogba-Fernandes is a good midfield on paper. The only problem is that Matic has been playing like a sunday league player for about 18 months, Pogba doesnt care and Fernandes hasnt signed yet.
Complete mystery. He has the mentality and ability to play for top European club, that much was clear when Anderlecht came to OT. A bit like a certain Harry Maguire when playing for Hull against us.
In a 4-2-3-1 our midfield is McT and Pogba right?
Or are you including the 3 (Martial, Lingard and James)
Doesn't matter, they're better than most, I think.
I totally agree that Herrera needs replacing. But moving to a high press with a double pivot does negate some of the need for numbers... and we have to remember fred was 50m plus and the club clearly haven't given up on him.
It is the most underwhelming midfield options we have had in 5 or 6 years though
It is the most underwhelming midfield options we have had in 5 or 6 years though
You believe that our midfield "is better than most"? Really?
Better than most is better than 10 of 20. So yes. I do.
Well, Originally I asked to exclude the 3 promoted teams, so not really.
Regardless, you rate our midfield higher than I do, so good luck to you
Good luck to us man!
Who said replace? It would have been the bare minimum
Try out Gomes to be our new Scholes. Kid has added that physical part to his game last season. He knows how to retain possession and can create from deep.
Pogba and McTominay should be solid and if we don't strengthen then our midfield needs to have Fred and Pereira having an in-form season, which I doubt will happen.
Hold on....
Those complaining about our midfield are REALLY missing the point of an awful lot of what Ole Gunnar is doing here at Manchester United.
Yes, we've lost Felliani and Herrera in recent months - which looks as if (if you play the game on paper) that we just lost two central midfielders...but those complaining mustn't be watching games. If you watched the games you will have noticed that we have also lost one midfield position in our set up.
Listen;
For anybody who studied Ole's approach last season and in pre-season (which is a slightly tweaked version of last season) you will have noticed that Ole plays with only TWO central midfield players. Not three, like Jose did, or LvG did or even Moyes did. TWO.
We line up like this now:
..................GK...........................
...................................................
...........RCB......LCB....................
RB.....................................LB.
...................................................
............CM6.................................
..........................CM8...................
...................................................
.................AM10.........................
RF...................................LF
..................CF...........................
...................................................
So... Ole has relinquished one midfield position so he can implement a no.10.
And although y'all complaining that we lost Felliani and we lost Herrera; what you are failing to realise is that we have now gained a position in which numerous players that we have been playing out of position can now play in.. so we are gaining options in that attacking midfield area.
See that AM10 position?
Well.. within that, these players can feature there: Sanchez (its where he has always played his best football - not wide left where we have been trying to fit him in.), Mata (it's where he has always played his best football - not wide right where we have been trying to fit him in), Lingard (it's where he has always played his best football - not wide right where we have been trying to fit him in. Pereira (his best position), Gomes (his best position).
Think of that.. we have ONE AM10 position to fill - and we have these options to play there:
Alexis Sanchez (player of the year at Arsenal in that position - proven in the Prem League)
Juan Mata (player of the year at Chelsea twice in that position - proven in the Prem League)
Jesse Lingard (excellent in this position for England and always effective when played here coming through the ranks)
Andreas Pereira (played here coming up through the ranks, largely thought of in this position, has played for BRAZIL in this position)
Angel Gomes (along with Paul Pogba, the best young talent I have ever seen coming through United's academy)
That's a bloody insane amount of options for one attacking midfield position.. no other club in world football can boast that kinda depth. And what's GREAT about it is, we will get to see Alexis Sanchez and Juan Mata operate in their favoured position.. where they shine. Now, I'm no fortune teller and I can't guarantee that Sanchez will rewind the clock and become a world great again.. but Jesus... he has to be given a chance in this role, where conceivably he could shine. We are finally gonna put two of the best talents we have bought post Fergie into a position they play their best ball in. Folk who are complaining that we lost Felliani and Herrera have failed to have realised that.
Because we have now adopted this two midfielders and one number 10 position - it enables us to bring many players into a central position who we have been playing out wide.
As a result, our midfield options grow. They haven't decreased. They have grown.
It does mean, of course, that the two midfield positions (CM6 and CM8) will be filled by two of Pogba (arguably best No.8 in the world), McTominay (our best player under Ole from Dec-May; our best player in pre-season and my tip to be our player of the year this season), Fred (GREAT cover for No.8 if Pogba needs resting or gets injured (still needs to improve but this position is his best), Matic (I believe his peak is gone but I like the fact that he will give McT rest during Europa/League Cup and can captain that young side and will do a very decent job for this season as cover for McT), Pereira (can and has played 6, 8, 10 - while I feel 10 is his best position, he can operate really well as a 6 and has done - so is decent cover as 6 and 8), Garner (a future great IMO; this season may have come a bit early for him, though I hope he features in 10-12 games).
So our options for those two positions are sound, though I do think in an ideal world Ole would have likened to have bought one of these two players: Declan Rice or Sean Longstaff. But West Ham or Newcastle weren't willing to sell unless for crazy money and it wasn't a massive priority given that we have lots of options for these positions. If McT doesn't step up and become the great holding midfielder I think he can be; then maybe we will see Longstaff or Rice as a value £60m buy next summer. Or maybe we will buy one of them anyway because Matic will have proven to be at the end (I think this is hugely likely).
Either way; this is a rebuild and will take time.
But stop playing the game on paper. Just because we lost two midfielders who used to operate in our midfield three doesn't mean we are down on numbers for that position, especially when our manager has reduced the number of midfield options within the XI.
Instead of playing the game on paper, WATCH the bloody game. If you did, you will have noticed the change in formation and will have twigged that we can now bring in a number of players who have been playing wide for us for years into a more central position that suits them.
If you include CM6, CM8 and AM10 as three positions - then we have NINE options for those three positions. And those nine options are perfectly balanced in terms of positioning AND in terns of experience v youth. We are WELL BALANCED in midfield.
Those complaining about our midfield are REALLY missing the point of an awful lot of what Ole Gunnar is doing here at Manchester United.
Yes, we've lost Felliani and Herrera in recent months - which looks as if (if you play the game on paper) that we just lost two central midfielders...but those complaining mustn't be watching games. If you watched the games you will have noticed that we have also lost one midfield position in our set up.
Listen;
For anybody who studied Ole's approach last season and in pre-season (which is a slightly tweaked version of last season) you will have noticed that Ole plays with only TWO central midfield players. Not three, like Jose did, or LvG did or even Moyes did. TWO.
We line up like this now:
..................GK...........................
...................................................
...........RCB......LCB....................
RB.....................................LB.
...................................................
............CM6.................................
..........................CM8...................
...................................................
.................AM10.........................
RF...................................LF
..................CF...........................
...................................................
So... Ole has relinquished one midfield position so he can implement a no.10.
And although y'all complaining that we lost Felliani and we lost Herrera; what you are failing to realise is that we have now gained a position in which numerous players that we have been playing out of position can now play in.. so we are gaining options in that attacking midfield area.
See that AM10 position?
Well.. within that, these players can feature there: Sanchez (its where he has always played his best football - not wide left where we have been trying to fit him in.), Mata (it's where he has always played his best football - not wide right where we have been trying to fit him in), Lingard (it's where he has always played his best football - not wide right where we have been trying to fit him in. Pereira (his best position), Gomes (his best position).
Think of that.. we have ONE AM10 position to fill - and we have these options to play there:
Alexis Sanchez (player of the year at Arsenal in that position - proven in the Prem League)
Juan Mata (player of the year at Chelsea twice in that position - proven in the Prem League)
Jesse Lingard (excellent in this position for England and always effective when played here coming through the ranks)
Andreas Pereira (played here coming up through the ranks, largely thought of in this position, has played for BRAZIL in this position)
Angel Gomes (along with Paul Pogba, the best young talent I have ever seen coming through United's academy)
That's a bloody insane amount of options for one attacking midfield position.. no other club in world football can boast that kinda depth. And what's GREAT about it is, we will get to see Alexis Sanchez and Juan Mata operate in their favoured position.. where they shine. Now, I'm no fortune teller and I can't guarantee that Sanchez will rewind the clock and become a world great again.. but Jesus... he has to be given a chance in this role, where conceivably he could shine. We are finally gonna put two of the best talents we have bought post Fergie into a position they play their best ball in. Folk who are complaining that we lost Felliani and Herrera have failed to have realised that.
Because we have now adopted this two midfielders and one number 10 position - it enables us to bring many players into a central position who we have been playing out wide.
As a result, our midfield options grow. They haven't decreased. They have grown.
It does mean, of course, that the two midfield positions (CM6 and CM8) will be filled by two of Pogba (arguably best No.8 in the world), McTominay (our best player under Ole from Dec-May; our best player in pre-season and my tip to be our player of the year this season), Fred (GREAT cover for No.8 if Pogba needs resting or gets injured (still needs to improve but this position is his best), Matic (I believe his peak is gone but I like the fact that he will give McT rest during Europa/League Cup and can captain that young side and will do a very decent job for this season as cover for McT), Pereira (can and has played 6, 8, 10 - while I feel 10 is his best position, he can operate really well as a 6 and has done - so is decent cover as 6 and 8), Garner (a future great IMO; this season may have come a bit early for him, though I hope he features in 10-12 games).
So our options for those two positions are sound, though I do think in an ideal world Ole would have likened to have bought one of these two players: Declan Rice or Sean Longstaff. But West Ham or Newcastle weren't willing to sell unless for crazy money and it wasn't a massive priority given that we have lots of options for these positions. If McT doesn't step up and become the great holding midfielder I think he can be; then maybe we will see Longstaff or Rice as a value £60m buy next summer. Or maybe we will buy one of them anyway because Matic will have proven to be at the end (I think this is hugely likely).
Either way; this is a rebuild and will take time.
But stop playing the game on paper. Just because we lost two midfielders who used to operate in our midfield three doesn't mean we are down on numbers for that position, especially when our manager has reduced the number of midfield options within the XI.
Instead of playing the game on paper, WATCH the bloody game. If you did, you will have noticed the change in formation and will have twigged that we can now bring in a number of players who have been playing wide for us for years into a more central position that suits them.
If you include CM6, CM8 and AM10 as three positions - then we have NINE options for those three positions. And those nine options are perfectly balanced in terms of positioning AND in terns of experience v youth. We are WELL BALANCED in midfield.
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There were loads of good options on the market this window, Ndombele, Bruno, Partey, Rabiot, Ramsey, Kessie, Tielemans and others, and all of them with a not unreasonable price tag.
You then had other Premier League options such as Rice, Neves, Ndidi, Gueye, but weirdly we just didn't seem to be interested in any of them. Seemingly Longstaff being the only player that had anything credible about a deal.
Which I just don't understand considering the personnel that we have in our MF group, and the fact that we have lost 2 senior MFs.
I just felt sure, that we would add a quality MF, but as soon as Mata was awarded a new contract, I knew that was our MF dealings were most likely not going to be addressed.
I'm still clinging onto the belief/hope that something can be snatched out of the bag, even at this late stage of the window....
You then had other Premier League options such as Rice, Neves, Ndidi, Gueye, but weirdly we just didn't seem to be interested in any of them. Seemingly Longstaff being the only player that had anything credible about a deal.
Which I just don't understand considering the personnel that we have in our MF group, and the fact that we have lost 2 senior MFs.
I just felt sure, that we would add a quality MF, but as soon as Mata was awarded a new contract, I knew that was our MF dealings were most likely not going to be addressed.
I'm still clinging onto the belief/hope that something can be snatched out of the bag, even at this late stage of the window....
Ole won't be there to sign those 2 if he doesn't address this midfield. Relying on the likes of Pereira and Lingard stepping up is just idiocracy at its finest.
Fully agree with you. The back end of last season was telling for me. All this nonsense about the players being tired and cant run, it covered the cracks of the sheer lack of quality in our squad. We have addressed the defence but we are weaker in midfield and if we sell Lukaku as it looks likely and dont replace him we will be weaker up top.
Now Ole might have all ideas about a rebuild taking time, however time is something managers do not get these days. He needs to hit the ground running right from the start and we have two difficult games. If we start the season as we ended last, then he wont survive long.
Yep you are right. Thing is, it could easily be a situation where we lose both of those games. Chelsea don't convince me but it's the opening game of the season so anything can happen and Wolves away was one of the toughest fixtures in the league last season. Ole can't keep talking about the spirit of 99, he needs to build his own identity and get out of the past.
This post sums our midfield up perfectly and makes sense based on logic.
I don't think we NEED to sign two CM's like a lot of the talk, but I do think we need 1 CM to come in before the window.
The issue with our personnel for midfield, which as explained in this post we ARE covered for every position is this:
Pogba IS leaving (whether is this summer or next, he is leaving)
Matic: His legs look truly shot even in 45 min appearances in pre season. He has experience etc but he really looks done
Mata: Similar to Matic - Best days long gone. Playing him as a #10 will put him in his favoured position. Shame its 4 seasons too late and I fear he isn't energetic enough for the style of play Ole wants
Sanchez: Our worst signing in recent times. Looks a shadow of the player he was, absolutely zero evidence he'll regain any form, in any position.
So we are ultimately relying on Lingard as our starting #10. While we have numbers, we lack quality.
I do think Fred/McTom & Periera will come good and be pushing for starting places, be vital around the squad. Garner/Chong will only benefit from minutes.
McTom is our best midfielder currently. I really think he will have a great season
Our 10 can be improved and we need a Pogba replacement so i'd say we need 1xCM
I would agree, except for Pogba. I don't think he's leaving if he sees improvement on the pitch and a title challenge, or even a title. After that, he will just offer a new contract.
Fully expecting James Maddison to be a priority next summer for the 10 role then cause none of the current options in that role are fully up for the job and it will remain the case come next year
I like this post. I think you may be overrating some of our options slightly, but this is the kind of clear-headed optimism I need right now.
You have a very similar writing style to Patience. (who's post you are supporting)
Think it was Hansen who once opined on 'Match of the day' that if you put Giggs, Keane, Scholes, Beckham into any PL side you'd immediately have a top six team. In a nutshell, the importance of the Midfield.
Our present lack of cohesion and quality in this key area shows how much work remains to be done.
Our present lack of cohesion and quality in this key area shows how much work remains to be done.
It occurred to me that I only actually rate two of our central/defensive midfielders... and both come with caveats (McT is young and decent but not top level or anything and Pogba is inconsistent)
Matic looks past it, though he was crap by his own admission last year, so there is a chance he could have a good season in him... maybe... I just don't rate Fred at all, don't see what anyone saw in him... and Andreas is just ok.
Matic looks past it, though he was crap by his own admission last year, so there is a chance he could have a good season in him... maybe... I just don't rate Fred at all, don't see what anyone saw in him... and Andreas is just ok.
This is a good post.
I believe (perhaps optimistically) Sanchez will do well at #10 particularly if we implement a full team press, he may have lost a yard of pace but he is still relentless in chasing down the ball & working hard. Having the rotation options of Lingard, Mata, Gomes & Pereira will be good for squad depth too, and each of those players provide something different so it can help disrupt the other team's preparations too.
The only downside (imo) is that we won't get the best out of Scott McSauce - he's shown his ability at bringing the ball from midfield to attack and providing another body in the oppositions box during pre-season, plus he has a decent strike on him.
In a 4-2-3-1 system we will be exposed in midfield if he were to do this, thus meaning we're reliant on Pogba & 1 of Sanchez/Mata/Lingard to be the shield between midfield & attack and if we face a superior counter-attacking team then we will be caught out, quite easily too.
What that means is that we will probably see Matic in most games because he's more defensively disciplined.
A defensive midfielder should be a priority, more than an attacking one imo.
I think that this is only because we are so weak in midfield and we lack so much. Ole preferred to play a 3 back when Herrera was fit and Matic Herrera Pogba was doing really well for the first 3 months under Ole or thereabouts. The best we have looked under Ole, it was when we played a midfield 3. And even if you look at those AM10 options, we need better than that imo. Lingard is a good backup and Pereira is ok I suppose and Gomes is a baller but we need someone of top quality here.
In summary, I think the only reason we have changed to playing 2 midfielders is because of our lack of options. Pogba and McSauce are the only ones that give me confidence atm, we need one more, so that at the very least even if Ole actually does only wanna play 2 he will at least have the option to play a decent midfield 3.
edit: and sanchez is absolutely cooked, finished, past it, akin to Tony V.
This was comedic. Juan Mata Pereira Sanchez are all players who could and should of been moved on Summer. Gomes is unproven. These are awful options
We should and in an ideal world would sign 2 midfielders imo, a CM and a DM, but we only actually NEED 1 midfielder. We can make do a little short of depth in quality, but if we don't sign any that will be too much that we are missing to adequately make do imo.
You forgot Sanchez, James and Greenwood in that attack. Possibly Gomes and Chong as well. That's a lot more variety.
My point is the attack is better than last season even if Lukaku leaves. Because the team won't be set up for Lukaku and won't have the same weak link losing possession in build up.
I agree about the midfield. It's weak. Without Pogba it's pathetic.
No need to make the attack look worse than it is. Most of our rivals would love some of our attackers.
Partey + Fernandes and we’d be laughing. Use the Lukaku money for those 2.
You know, I don't disagree completely here. It's not as bad as some make it out to be.
But I don't think Rashford, Martial, Lingard, Mata, Sanchez, James and Greenwood measure up to teams I consider being our rivals. They are good enough for Top 7-8. If Greenwood thrives it'll be Top 5 (I hope).
If we managed to get CL, would we have acquired Sancho + Dybala? Very costly missing out this year if that is the case.
When Pogba goes I cannot wait for the game where we have a Jones - McTominay midfield
McTominay, Longstaff and fast-track James Garner and we're sorted.
Sorted to finish mid table
It's the base of the midfield that is worrying.
Our back 4 is close to being sorted. We are absolutely stacked upfront. It's the midfield anchor that is the weakpoint:
Matic _ Doesn't fill me with any confidence
Fred _ Same here
McTominay _ Has potential but our team cannot hinge on this guy putting in world class performances week in, week out.
This is why I have maintained that signing a good DM is more of a priority that signing an attacker.
We need to build from the back to the front and we need a good DM after getting in Maguire.
Doesn't have to be a Gattusso type destroyer ball winner but atleast someone with good distribution skills who can read the game and bring out the ball from the back, clean up after Pogba and dictate play.
I mean look at the Milan game. Matic ceeded possesion with a simple pass from De Gea and we conceeded a goal. We can't allow this kind of lax, sloppy play in the PL. We'll get cleaned week in, week out.
Our back 4 is close to being sorted. We are absolutely stacked upfront. It's the midfield anchor that is the weakpoint:
Matic _ Doesn't fill me with any confidence
Fred _ Same here
McTominay _ Has potential but our team cannot hinge on this guy putting in world class performances week in, week out.
This is why I have maintained that signing a good DM is more of a priority that signing an attacker.
We need to build from the back to the front and we need a good DM after getting in Maguire.
Doesn't have to be a Gattusso type destroyer ball winner but atleast someone with good distribution skills who can read the game and bring out the ball from the back, clean up after Pogba and dictate play.
I mean look at the Milan game. Matic ceeded possesion with a simple pass from De Gea and we conceeded a goal. We can't allow this kind of lax, sloppy play in the PL. We'll get cleaned week in, week out.
107% of the posters on here seem to think we'll struggle to get into the top six(which is apparently mid-table)as it is. So what's to lose?
Clearly lacks creativity, work rate (for a course of a season) and defensive cover.
Not been addressed two days before the window shuts is so wrong.
Small steps taken in other areas but large steps still needed in the midfield.
Not been addressed two days before the window shuts is so wrong.
Small steps taken in other areas but large steps still needed in the midfield.
How the hell has nothing happened?
And why are we looking at number 10s when we badly need someone to replace Herrera and get Matic out of the team? This is mental.
And why are we looking at number 10s when we badly need someone to replace Herrera and get Matic out of the team? This is mental.