How would Mourinho's tenure be viewed had we sacked him at the end of 17/18?

[Skills]

Even as a huge critic of Mourinho, if you look at his first two seasons in isolation I think he did a decent job. Got us back in the CL and consolidated it with a 2nd place finish, just in terms of those results. However the poor football, constant negativity and his past showed the club should have been more wary.

We went wrong by over indulging him. Mourinho's time was up at the end of his second season, everything was spiraling out of control and the Seville loss was the big bust. The club should've been planning for his departure when they instead chose to extend his contract. They should've been looking forward to the next few years, when they indulged him by getting someone like Sanchez. But we let him throw away the 2 years before, by asking him to do something that he wasn't capable of and it seemed not really interested in.

Having a the right manager for the right moment is more important than having one for life. We tried to make a good one night stand, into a life partner.

 

[Greck]

As a mild success. He had taken us a step forward and that was the point to have someone else build off of that momentum. A true visionary at the board level would have seen the divide that would crash our next season before it happened and took us two steps back

 

[charlenefan]

I expect had he gone that season they'd be a lot that would be asking why, why wasn't he given the chance to push on from that 2nd place finish.

That being said a lot did want him gone that summer, but then they're the same ones who want Ole gone now so....

There's absolutely no doubt Mourinho's first 2 seasons were by far the best post Fergie and you just hoped the board knew how it would go if he wasn't backed 100%, that was the mistake the board made thinking they could get away with delivering less than 100% of what Mourinho wanted and get away without the whole thing turning sour. If you hire Mourinho you have to give him everything he wants otherwise there's no point hiring him in the first place.

What we've found out now though is that giving Mourinho everything no longer guarantee's the success it once did as his methods no longer work in the PL (not at the moment anyway)

 

[Champagne Football]

Jose was never going to get himself sacked until he was entitled to that 15 million bonanza.

 

[padzilla]

His time would certainly have been more fondly remembered however both him and Woodward have to take responsibility for the third season disaster. Mourinho didn't want to quit, despite the fact his position became untenable when the board wouldn't back him any longer, because he would lose out on a huge pay day. Woodward wouldn't sack him because he would have had to pay severance. We went into last season with a manager who was sulking and trying to get sacked and a chairman (by any other name) who refused to sack him until it reached a preposterous level.

 

[Lentwood]

The problem is, it depends whether you take the short or long-term view

In my opinion, Jose Mourinho is still one of the best managers in world football. It boggles my mind to think that managers like Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and Frank Lampard have top jobs in the PL whilst Jose sits and watches in the Sky Sports studio. Jose probably forgot more about football management yesterday than these chaps will ever know - no disrespect but let's not underestimate Jose's achievements, which are comparable to Clough, SAF and Shankly.

However, there is a serious point to be made here, I'm not a Mourinho fanboy (like some on here) and I accept that Jose made many bad decisions during his final year at the club.

The problem, as I see it, is that IF you are going to appoint a manager like Jose, you have to be ready and able to do everything it takes to get immediate results. That includes indulging his ego and giving him what he wants, when he wants it. If that means spending £300m, it means spending £300m. If it means selling your best player to re-establish authority, it means selling your best player. If it means selling two CBs that manager purchased and buying two more, it means buying two more. There is literally zero point taking on Jose and expecting him to be happy with mediocrity, with a wishy-washy target of a top four finish and blooding the odd young player. Why would (or should) a top manager like Jose put up with that?

Look at the way City have indulged Guardiola. I often see the same criticism levelled at Guardiola - "well....I would love to see how he would get on at Burnley", which in my book is rather irrelevant because the fact is, Guardiola is an expert at getting the best out of elite players. However, City gave Guardiola the platform, they gave him virtually unlimited funds to construct a squad, they never questioned any of his decisions (like bombing out their one 'homegrown' player and captain, Joe Hart), they understood what Guardiola was about and created the conditions he needed to suceed.

You could go into all kinds of detail here but just to summarise, my point is, there's certainly fault to find in the way Jose handled his last 12-months at United, but to use an analogy, it's pointless spending £200K on a brand-new Ferrari and complaining it's a bad car because it won't tow a plough. Likewise, no point buying a top of the range John Deere and claiming it's a bad piece of kit because you're being overtaken on the motorway by 10yr old Fiat's. It's 'horses for courses', and we were the wrong club at the wrong time for Jose, given what we know now in hindsight

 

[90 + 5min]

I would say that he did pretty good before Sevilla game. After that it looked like he was just looking for truble with his statements in media. Shame because I think that he has big passion for the game and is well educated in football. There are few in the game with his knowledge but the question is has the game moved on from his way of working.

 

[bosnian_red]

At a pretty good level but also leaving at the right time because it was always going to implode from there.

 

[Sky1981]

The football wasn't poor.

Defensive, dour for some, but it works

 

[Di Maria's angel]

I think we were quite successful between 16-18. Shame we didn't strengthen enough in summer 2018 - Maguire, now, is showing what we missed last season. He still should have been sacked before the Newcastle game last season. The football between August and December, last season, was some of the worst I've ever seen.

 

[90 + 5min]

The problem is, it depends whether you take the short or long-term view

In my opinion, Jose Mourinho is still one of the best managers in world football. It boggles my mind to think that managers like Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and Frank Lampard have top jobs in the PL whilst Jose sits and watches in the Sky Sports studio. Jose probably forgot more about football management yesterday than these chaps will ever know - no disrespect but let's not underestimate Jose's achievements, which are comparable to Clough, SAF and Shankly.

However, there is a serious point to be made here, I'm not a Mourinho fanboy (like some on here) and I accept that Jose made many bad decisions during his final year at the club.

The problem, as I see it, is that IF you are going to appoint a manager like Jose, you have to be ready and able to do everything it takes to get immediate results. That includes indulging his ego and giving him what he wants, when he wants it. If that means spending £300m, it means spending £300m. If it means selling your best player to re-establish authority, it means selling your best player. If it means selling two CBs that manager purchased and buying two more, it means buying two more. There is literally zero point taking on Jose and expecting him to be happy with mediocrity, with a wishy-washy target of a top four finish and blooding the odd young player. Why would (or should) a top manager like Jose put up with that?

Look at the way City have indulged Guardiola. I often see the same criticism levelled at Guardiola - "well....I would love to see how he would get on at Burnley", which in my book is rather irrelevant because the fact is, Guardiola is an expert at getting the best out of elite players. However, City gave Guardiola the platform, they gave him virtually unlimited funds to construct a squad, they never questioned any of his decisions (like bombing out their one 'homegrown' player and captain, Joe Hart), they understood what Guardiola was about and created the conditions he needed to suceed.

You could go into all kinds of detail here but just to summarise, my point is, there's certainly fault to find in the way Jose handled his last 12-months at United, but to use an analogy, it's pointless spending £200K on a brand-new Ferrari and complaining it's a bad car because it won't tow a plough. Likewise, no point buying a top of the range John Deere and claiming it's a bad piece of kit because you're being overtaken on the motorway by 10yr old Fiat's. It's 'horses for courses', and we were the wrong club at the wrong time for Jose, given what we know now in hindsight

Very good post although you should be little more kind to Lampard and Solskjaer. Lets see where they end up in about 10-15 year time. For now I agree that Jose's knowledge is by miles over these two guys.

Sadly It was no brainer that it went as it went because Jose is Jose. It was right from the club to get him kicked out because he lost dressing room and he was not smooth (to put it lightly) in media. You can say he made the decision for the club with his behaviour. But the club knew who Jose was. If you hire Jose you have to give him everything all the time as you said.

What I wonder is has football moved on from the way he thinks football. He has great knowledge of the game, but is that a knowledge for the past? Or will he have to adapt to modern game where players have almost more power then managers. And with Jose's ego I think he will have to change. If he changes will Jose be Jose or is Jose as we know gone and he becomes only one of other 10000+ managers?

 

[Cheesy]

The problem is, it depends whether you take the short or long-term view

In my opinion, Jose Mourinho is still one of the best managers in world football. It boggles my mind to think that managers like Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and Frank Lampard have top jobs in the PL whilst Jose sits and watches in the Sky Sports studio. Jose probably forgot more about football management yesterday than these chaps will ever know - no disrespect but let's not underestimate Jose's achievements, which are comparable to Clough, SAF and Shankly.

However, there is a serious point to be made here, I'm not a Mourinho fanboy (like some on here) and I accept that Jose made many bad decisions during his final year at the club.

The problem, as I see it, is that IF you are going to appoint a manager like Jose, you have to be ready and able to do everything it takes to get immediate results. That includes indulging his ego and giving him what he wants, when he wants it. If that means spending £300m, it means spending £300m. If it means selling your best player to re-establish authority, it means selling your best player. If it means selling two CBs that manager purchased and buying two more, it means buying two more. There is literally zero point taking on Jose and expecting him to be happy with mediocrity, with a wishy-washy target of a top four finish and blooding the odd young player. Why would (or should) a top manager like Jose put up with that?

Look at the way City have indulged Guardiola. I often see the same criticism levelled at Guardiola - "well....I would love to see how he would get on at Burnley", which in my book is rather irrelevant because the fact is, Guardiola is an expert at getting the best out of elite players. However, City gave Guardiola the platform, they gave him virtually unlimited funds to construct a squad, they never questioned any of his decisions (like bombing out their one 'homegrown' player and captain, Joe Hart), they understood what Guardiola was about and created the conditions he needed to suceed.

You could go into all kinds of detail here but just to summarise, my point is, there's certainly fault to find in the way Jose handled his last 12-months at United, but to use an analogy, it's pointless spending £200K on a brand-new Ferrari and complaining it's a bad car because it won't tow a plough. Likewise, no point buying a top of the range John Deere and claiming it's a bad piece of kit because you're being overtaken on the motorway by 10yr old Fiat's. It's 'horses for courses', and we were the wrong club at the wrong time for Jose, given what we know now in hindsight

Probably because he's ended up absolutely nosediving in his last two jobs. He's not been one of the best managers in the game for a while now, and at this point the onus is on him to regain that status.

 

[Skills]

Probably because he's ended up absolutely nosediving in his last two jobs. He's not been one of the best managers in the game for a while now, and at this point the onus is on him to regain that status.

That entire notion that he's still one of the best is ridiculous. Clubs should be lining up for Capello, Trappatoni and co if that's the case.

 

[rotherham_red]

I think anyone with a functioning pair of eyes could see he was done by the March of that season, but because of that contract extension we realistically weren't going to sack him in that summer. Even if we did, I have no faith in Ed to bring anyone decent in. All in all, I don't think it would have mattered. We are where we are.

 

[Cheesy]

That entire notion that he's still one of the best is ridiculous. Clubs should be lining up for Capello, Trappatoni and co if that's the case.

Yeah it's very, very silly. While it's not necessarily the same linear process, a lot of managers decline in the same way top players do as the game moves on and as they get older. Wenger is probably your perfect recent example but lots before that too.

 

[Lentwood]

Probably because he's ended up absolutely nosediving in his last two jobs. He's not been one of the best managers in the game for a while now, and at this point the onus is on him to regain that status.

If 'nosediving' is winning a PL title (with Chelsea), the Europa League & League Cup (with United) whilst finishing 2nd only to probably the most complete squad in the PL era, then here's hoping Ole can produce a similar 'nosedive'

Seriously though, I do get your point - Jose had a meltdown at both clubs, but I do say in my post he's a unique manager who needs unique conditions. Little point putting him in charge of a team and undermining his authority/not giving him what he wants.

Put Guardiola in charge of Burnley tomorrow, would he do better than Sean Dyche? I would argue no. But replace Guardiola with Dyche at City, would Dyche do as good a job? Definitely not. Horses for course

 

[Skills]

If 'nosediving' is winning a PL title (with Chelsea), the Europa League & League Cup (with United) whilst finishing 2nd only to probably the most complete squad in the PL era, then here's hoping Ole can produce a similar 'nosedive'

Seriously though, I do get your point - Jose had a meltdown at both clubs, but I do say in my post he's a unique manager who needs unique conditions. Little point putting him in charge of a team and undermining his authority/not giving him what he wants.

Put Guardiola in charge of Burnley tomorrow, would he do better than Sean Dyche? I would argue no. But replace Guardiola with Dyche at City, would Dyche do as good a job? Definitely not. Horses for course

Nah i thinks it the bit where he had Chelsea down in 17th and us down in 12th in December, in two different seasons. That's the nosediving.

 

[Judas]

A on paper success, but from an enjoyment standpoint, mostly season 2 was painful to watch after the initial month or so.

 

[Cheesy]

If 'nosediving' is winning a PL title (with Chelsea), the Europa League & League Cup (with United) whilst finishing 2nd only to probably the most complete squad in the PL era, then here's hoping Ole can produce a similar 'nosedive'

Seriously though, I do get your point - Jose had a meltdown at both clubs, but I do say in my post he's a unique manager who needs unique conditions. Little point putting him in charge of a team and undermining his authority/not giving him what he wants.

Put Guardiola in charge of Burnley tomorrow, would he do better than Sean Dyche? I would argue no. But replace Guardiola with Dyche at City, would Dyche do as good a job? Definitely not. Horses for course

He last won the PL title in 2015 - that's four years ago. His achievements here were fine in the first two years but not those of an elite manager: his cup wins also saw him finish 6th, and our second placed finish was alright, but again nothing spectacular - both his full seasons here were considerably worse than any individual season he had between 2002-10.

The 'unique conditions' thing is silly as well. He was allowed to make a world record signing while here. I like Harry Maguire but it's fairly daft to pretend signing him alone would've somehow had Mourinho competing for the title last year.

Ultimately there's very little at this point to indicate he's an elite manager. His brand of football is incredibly dull and negative but doesn't come with the caveat of top-level success anymore, and he inevitably alienates all the players he's around. The last season in which he could've reasonably been seen as one of the best managers in the game was 2014-15.

 

[Skills]

A on paper success, but from an enjoyment standpoint, mostly season 2 was painful to watch after the initial month or so.

Season 1 was just as bad. We scored something like 5 goals more than LVGs record breakingly bad, boring season. The football was painful in general.

 

[Judas]

Season 1 was just as bad. We scored something like 5 goals more than LVGs record breakingly bad, boring season. The football was painful in general.

Honestly my memory of that season is so foggy, I barely remember any of it, which says a lot. I've more memory of LVG's time here than I do that first season under Jose. I remember the league cup win and us making an absolute meal out of the Europa League. That's about it.

 

[Tarrou]

More fondly, obviously

The end of his tenure was very messy and has damaged his reputation

 

[Cheesy]

Season 1 was just as bad. We scored something like 5 goals more than LVGs record breakingly bad, boring season. The football was painful in general.

Yeah we scored 54 goals throughout the whole season and won less than half our games. It was a slight improvement on LVG but nothing remarkable for someone who'd broken the world transfer record at the start of the season.

 

[Rendezvous with Ronaldo]

If he were sacked then, it would now give people another (and more legitimate) reason for people on here to whine about Woodward...

 

[Judas]

I 100% wanted him gone, but knew full well we were never sacking a manager who got us 2nd in the league, it would just be hard to justify even though the signs were all there that the meltdown was right around the corner.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

Qualified success...

 

[roonster09]

I 100% wanted him gone, but knew full well we were never sacking a manager who got us 2nd in the league, it would just be hard to justify even though the signs were all there that the meltdown was right around the corner.

Yeah, wanted him gone but it would have been hard to justify sacking the manager who achieved 2nd position.

He would have got more credit for sure, if he was sacked in 2017-18.

 

[TRUERED89]

Woody was never sacking him after getting 2nd place, not immediately anyway..

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

He may as well have been. He wasn’t backed the following season.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

Yeah, wanted him gone but it would have been hard to justify sacking the manager who achieved 2nd position.

He would have got more credit for sure, if he was sacked in 2017-18.

No doubt at all, his stock would have been sky high as nobody would seriously have thought he could have got us competing for the title with City in two years. He'd have left with a pocket full of cash with everyone sure, with some justification results-wise, that he'd done the best he could with the time he'd got. What he had no idea nor seemingly any intention of doing here was setting us up for the long term, so getting rid of him at the end of 17/18 would have laid bare the short-termism of the appointment.

Tin hat time but in a way it definitely suited the owners to have Jose lose it completely after a dire transfer window during the 18/19 season then appoint Ole as a salve for the fans, rather than sack Jose in summer '18 and have most of the football world side with Jose against them.

 

[Canagel]

Not too differently. When he came everyone was excited for Mourinho vs Pep part 2 and he got left in the dust. No trophies in 2017/18.

 

[TRUERED89]

He may as well have been. He wasn’t backed the following season.

It is very strange, some serious words must have been exchanged during pre-season as Jose was resigned to the fact that we were going to be sh!t and he was right. Woody should've just fired him during pre-season if he was only looking to buy Fred, on top of that extending his contract in like March of 2018 made no sense whatsoever.

 

[Denis79]

It is very strange, some serious words must have been exchanged during pre-season as Jose was resigned to the fact that we were going to be sh!t and he was right. Woody should've just fired him during pre-season if he was only looking to buy Fred, on top of that extending his contract in like March of 2018 made no sense whatsoever.

Hilarious read.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.joe.co.uk/amp/sport/manchester-united-ed-woodward-mourinho-195660

My favorite part.

" Managers and players may come and go, but the one constant is Woodward. The boardroom Tarantino deserves all the praise in the world for carefully constructing a clusterfeck of such epic proportions. He could not have planned it all any worse - and therefore any better. Neither back nor sack the manager - just wait for him to monumentally crack. "

 

[mitchmouse]

The problem is, it depends whether you take the short or long-term view

In my opinion, Jose Mourinho is still one of the best managers in world football. It boggles my mind to think that managers like Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and Frank Lampard have top jobs in the PL whilst Jose sits and watches in the Sky Sports studio. Jose probably forgot more about football management yesterday than these chaps will ever know - no disrespect but let's not underestimate Jose's achievements, which are comparable to Clough, SAF and Shankly.

However, there is a serious point to be made here, I'm not a Mourinho fanboy (like some on here) and I accept that Jose made many bad decisions during his final year at the club.

The problem, as I see it, is that IF you are going to appoint a manager like Jose, you have to be ready and able to do everything it takes to get immediate results. That includes indulging his ego and giving him what he wants, when he wants it. If that means spending £300m, it means spending £300m. If it means selling your best player to re-establish authority, it means selling your best player. If it means selling two CBs that manager purchased and buying two more, it means buying two more. There is literally zero point taking on Jose and expecting him to be happy with mediocrity, with a wishy-washy target of a top four finish and blooding the odd young player. Why would (or should) a top manager like Jose put up with that?

Look at the way City have indulged Guardiola. I often see the same criticism levelled at Guardiola - "well....I would love to see how he would get on at Burnley", which in my book is rather irrelevant because the fact is, Guardiola is an expert at getting the best out of elite players. However, City gave Guardiola the platform, they gave him virtually unlimited funds to construct a squad, they never questioned any of his decisions (like bombing out their one 'homegrown' player and captain, Joe Hart), they understood what Guardiola was about and created the conditions he needed to suceed.

You could go into all kinds of detail here but just to summarise, my point is, there's certainly fault to find in the way Jose handled his last 12-months at United, but to use an analogy, it's pointless spending £200K on a brand-new Ferrari and complaining it's a bad car because it won't tow a plough. Likewise, no point buying a top of the range John Deere and claiming it's a bad piece of kit because you're being overtaken on the motorway by 10yr old Fiat's. It's 'horses for courses', and we were the wrong club at the wrong time for Jose, given what we know now in hindsight

I agree with a lot of this.... and it's worth remembering that we have gone out and spent a lot of money on one of the gaps he wanted to fill (CB)

 

[mitchmouse]

I think we were quite successful between 16-18. Shame we didn't strengthen enough in summer 2018 - Maguire, now, is showing what we missed last season. He still should have been sacked before the Newcastle game last season. The football between August and December, last season, was some of the worst I've ever seen.

I think the writing was on the wall after the horrid display at West Ham (and I was and to an extent remain something of a Jose fan, without being the stupidly named fanboy)

 

[Rhyme Animal]

He's our most successful manager since Fergie - even with the ludicrous 3rd season not backing / toys out of pram meltdown.

Those first 2 seasons were solid - multiple trophies, highest PL finish post-SAF.

Why on Earth Woodward / Glazers didn't buy him Maguire and give him another winger I've no idea - especially after they lengthened his fecking contract a few months earlier... genuinely laughable.

 

[JohnnyKills]

He last won the PL title in 2015 - that's four years ago. His achievements here were fine in the first two years but not those of an elite manager: his cup wins also saw him finish 6th, and our second placed finish was alright, but again nothing spectacular - both his full seasons here were considerably worse than any individual season he had between 2002-10.

The 'unique conditions' thing is silly as well. He was allowed to make a world record signing while here. I like Harry Maguire but it's fairly daft to pretend signing him alone would've somehow had Mourinho competing for the title last year.

Ultimately there's very little at this point to indicate he's an elite manager. His brand of football is incredibly dull and negative but doesn't come with the caveat of top-level success anymore, and he inevitably alienates all the players he's around. The last season in which he could've reasonably been seen as one of the best managers in the game was 2014-15.

Yeah feels like football has moved on now doesn't it. The high press came along and he didn't seem to know how to deal with it.

 

[Handré1990]

There’d be hordes of caftards claiming he was betrayed and hard done by the club, instead of that weird little secret cult following it is now, it’d be like a new religion!

 

[Sky1981]

Yeah it's very, very silly. While it's not necessarily the same linear process, a lot of managers decline in the same way top players do as the game moves on and as they get older. Wenger is probably your perfect recent example but lots before that too.

They didnt decline like players do. Trapp, capello got old probably moved on with their lives just as many other people did along as they age. They've achieved alot, and probably well enough not to work.

People sometimes forget how destructive being a football coach to your health and personal lives, the amount of preparation, stress, travelling, meticulous planning and not to mention being away from your family most of the times probably isnt for everyone.

So if they dont get jobs it's probably not because they're obsolete, but more about them not taking offers.

They might decline in their intensity and energy to work 12 hours a day but i dont doubt their knowledge and nous is still there... unless they've gone senile.

I also dont agree with footballing philosophy being outdated. The world football is still played with 11 men each side even with the invention of fm position like trequartista, ramdeumter, and all that the old managers can simply analyze a few games and deduct just fine. If fischer is still alive today his chess method wont be outdated, he'll simply absord and evolve.

 

[Ballist1x]

There’d be hordes of caftards claiming he was betrayed and hard done by the club, instead of that weird little secret cult following it is now, it’d be like a new religion!

Justice for Jose!