The decline of center back talent

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Naturally, a lot of the focus goes to attackers in the modern game but if you look at the defensive players out there in recent years I feel there's been a massive decline compared to 10/15 or so years ago where we were filled in a world with Lucio, Puyol, Nesta, Vidic, Rio, Terry, Carvalho, Campbell etc.

I understand defence is something that's quite hard to quantify, everyone has their own measures whether it be tackles, interceptions, headers and in the modern game distribution/ball playing ability. If we are to look at individuals you merely have to take one look at national sides to see if there has been a steep decline of talent. Is there anyone that matches to Rio, Terry for England, Puyol for Spain? Maldini, Nesta for Italy, Carvalho for Portugal etc.

It's been refreshing to see the likes of Van Dijk win the UEFA best player award if you're a neutral, he seems like a rare breed of genuine defensive talent as a CB in the modern game, by how much was paid to sign him it only illustrates how hard it is to get a quality center back. Nowadays if we were to state the top center backs we'd probably list Van Dijk, Ramos and maybe Pique? Why do you think the stock of center backs has fallen so much?

Share your thoughts.

 

[Terminator]

Van Djik won the ballondor? That's news to me

 

[TheReligion]

VVD isn't fit to lace the boots of the aforementioned legend btw

 

[Sandikan]

Naturally, a lot of the focus goes to attackers in the modern game but if you look at the defensive players out there in recent years I feel there's been a massive decline compared to 10/15 or so years ago where we were filled in a world with Lucio, Puyol, Nesta, Vidic, Rio, Terry, Carvalho, Campbell etc.

I understand defence is something that's quite hard to quantify, everyone has their own measures whether it be tackles, interceptions, headers and in the modern game distribution/ball playing ability. If we are to look at individuals you merely have to take one look at national sides to see if there has been a steep decline of talent. Is there anyone that matches to Rio, Terry for England, Puyol for Spain? Maldini, Nesta for Italy, Carvalho for Portugal etc.

It's been refreshing to see the likes of Van Dijk win the Ballon d'or if you're a neutral, he seems like a rare breed of genuine defensive talent as a CB in the modern game, by how much was paid to sign him it only illustrates how hard it is to get a quality center back. Nowadays if we we're to state top center backs we'd probably list Van Dijk, Ramos and maybe Pique? Why do you think the stock of center backs has fallen so much if you even agree with the point.

Share your thoughts.

I think you imagined this happening The 2019 one is announced early December, and only Modric has stopped Messi or Ronaldo winning it since 2008.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Van Djik won the ballondor? That's news to me

Sorry UEFA award, edited.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

VVD isn't fit to lace the boots of the aforementioned legend btw

I agree with you, that's why I think there is a huge decline of talent in the CB region.

 

[Skills]

CBs have a much tougher job now, because of the way teams set up. FBs are much further up (they've taken up the role of the old winger), so they have less defensive support. Midfielders and attackers are pressing further up, rather than getting back to maintain a compact shape. So when the ball gets through the midfield, CBs are having to play 1v1 a lot more.

 

[harms]

Most of the defending today is done by keeping the ball or by actively pressing the opposition, you don’t get that many chances to shine. Your abilities on the ball mean more for a top club than the way you do tackles. Plus the refereeing standards are as harsh towards defenders as they ever were.

You still see the likes of Godin marshaling an old-fashioned no-nonsense defensive unit, which is quite refreshing.

 

[golden_blunder]

In a world where fans accept lindelof as being a good enough CB I totally agree with the OP

 

[Steven Seagull]

Van Dijk has got the lot. Don’t know how anybody can watch him play and not recognise the abilities he has. He’s one of the most complete centre halves of the generation

 

[Sandikan]

CBs have a much tougher job now, because of the way teams set up. FBs are much further up (they've taken up the role of the old winger), so they have less defensive support. Midfielders and attackers are pressing further up, rather than getting back to maintain a compact shape. So when the ball gets through the midfield, CBs are having to play 1v1 a lot more.

You are correct, but then the concept of "defensive" midfielder is big today, when it wasn't in the mid 90s and before.

You get them literally sat in front of the centre backs for some teams.

 

[TheReligion]

Van Dijk has got the lot. Don’t know how anybody can watch him play and not recognise the abilities he has. He’s one of the most complete centre halves of the generation

He's got abilities sure but he's not in the same league as the CBs named by the OP

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I think the game is better and faster these days. Tactics have also developed with more pressing and fast transitions. I don't think the old school central defenders would do that well in the modern game.

 

[Steven Seagull]

He's got abilities sure but he's not in the same league as the CBs named by the OP

Definitely up there with at least 2-3 of them in my book already. Only time holding him back from entering the group above

 

[mu4c_20le]

Van Dijk has got the lot. Don’t know how anybody can watch him play and not recognise the abilities he has. He’s one of the most complete centre halves of the generation

I think thats the point of this post. If he's considered the best of this generation, then it's kind of telling how weak the rest of the competition are.

 

[Skills]

You are correct, but then the concept of "defensive" midfielder is big today, when it wasn't in the mid 90s and before.

You get them literally sat in front of the centre backs for some teams.

I think as the 3/5 at the back died out, you saw the emergence of the 'defensive midfielder' who's basically a glorified 3rd CB. I think that shift probably happened around the time you mentioned with players like Rijkaard, Makele etc.

 

[Steven Seagull]

I think thats the point of this post. If he's considered the best of this generation, then it's kind of telling how weak the rest of the competition are.

Agree about the generation being weak but I think he’s miles ahead of the others around at the moment. He could be dropped into various top sides in different era’s and would look just as good, I think he’s that complete.

Just taking a bit of time to get full recognition of just how good he is. A league medal or 2 will propel him right up there in my opinion

 

[adexkola]

Sees Ramos mentioned in this thread.

Sighs.

 

[TheBallBoy84]

I'm not too sure Sol Campbell, Terry or even Ferdinand would be that great in todays type of game. These days defenders need pace too, and many of those legends mentioned above had 0 pace. Back in their days, full backs did not attack. The centre backs had way more help defending.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Sees Ramos mentioned in this thread.

Sighs.

But he scored another panenka init!

 

[Gio]

CBs have a much tougher job now, because of the way teams set up. FBs are much further up (they've taken up the role of the old winger), so they have less defensive support. Midfielders and attackers are pressing further up, rather than getting back to maintain a compact shape. So when the ball gets through the midfield, CBs are having to play 1v1 a lot more.

Aye. The whole environment has become more attacker-friendly with the refereeing, as harms says, becoming ever stricter. More analysis too and exposure which means less room to hide. Defenders generally get judged by the number of mistakes they make and, if you don't see them make any, their reputation holds firm. That worked to the reputational benefit of defenders of previous generations, whereas now any blip generates coverage.

 

[redman5]

Maybe it's because there's a better class of attackers around today. Faster, smarter, & more clinical.

 

[MikeKing]

I always found that those defenders had a certain character that defined them in the minds of the people, and lately we haven't seen that much of it which just means defenders mostly aren't getting their shine. I also do think defenders now face more scrutiny with the internet and youtube everybody get to see more from every player. A lot of legends was made from moments, in the CL, world cup etc, where as now everyone knows everything every weekend. Moments get forgotten about a lot easier these days. It is also the fact that football has changed and the expectations from defenders is different too.

I'm certain of this, if Lindelof shaved his head again to look more like Vidic, he would be rated a lot higher

 

[AltiUn]

I'm not too sure Sol Campbell, Terry or even Ferdinand would be that great in todays type of game. These days defenders need pace too, and many of those legends mentioned above had 0 pace. Back in their days, full backs did not attack. The centre backs had way more help defending.

Something tells me you never watched them play.

 

[arthurka]

In a world where fans accept lindelof as being a good enough CB I totally agree with the OP

This.. Never seen a player as average that has such a following. It's shocking really.

 

[Cascarino]

Most people aren’t very good at judging defenders.

 

[TheReligion]

Maybe it's because there's a better class of attackers around today. Faster, smarter, & more clinical.

Yeah that's not right either. The PL alone has the likes of Drogba, Henry, van Nistelrooy, Shearer, Bergkamp, Rooney...

All of the above are better than anything we have today.

 

[Pughnichi]

Something tells me you never watched them play.

haha...he mustn’t have had.

These 3 would walk into any EPL team and be 1st team.

 

[TheReligion]

I'm not too sure Sol Campbell, Terry or even Ferdinand would be that great in todays type of game. These days defenders need pace too, and many of those legends mentioned above had 0 pace. Back in their days, full backs did not attack. The centre backs had way more help defending.

What are you on about? Can only assume you didn't see Campbell and Rio play. As for full backs who attack Ashley Cole, Patrice Evra? Ring any bells?

 

[TheReligion]

Typically Liverpool fans are forgetting the past 30 years like it didn't happen..

 

[BBRBB]

I disagree with this sentiment. Someone like Puyol for example was a bit of joke for large parts of his career, a few good years and being part of dominating sides embellished his legacy.

People nowadays just don't like to appreciate good defending, one mistake or decisive duel lost lost and you're thrown under the the bus. On the other hand any old footage shows past defenders getting ridiculed by attackers of their time yet they're still considered GOATs.

 

[arnie_ni]

Van Dijk has got the lot. Don’t know how anybody can watch him play and not recognise the abilities he has. He’s one of the most complete centre halves of the generation

Yes of this generation. Thats the OPs point.

He is nowhere near as good as Vidic rio terry etc etc that the prem has had over the years let alone the likes of serie a

 

[hasanejaz88]

Naturally, a lot of the focus goes to attackers in the modern game but if you look at the defensive players out there in recent years I feel there's been a massive decline compared to 10/15 or so years ago where we were filled in a world with Lucio, Puyol, Nesta, Vidic, Rio, Terry, Carvalho, Campbell etc.

I understand defence is something that's quite hard to quantify, everyone has their own measures whether it be tackles, interceptions, headers and in the modern game distribution/ball playing ability. If we are to look at individuals you merely have to take one look at national sides to see if there has been a steep decline of talent. Is there anyone that matches to Rio, Terry for England, Puyol for Spain? Maldini, Nesta for Italy, Carvalho for Portugal etc.

It's been refreshing to see the likes of Van Dijk win the UEFA best player award if you're a neutral, he seems like a rare breed of genuine defensive talent as a CB in the modern game, by how much was paid to sign him it only illustrates how hard it is to get a quality center back. Nowadays if we were to state the top center backs we'd probably list Van Dijk, Ramos and maybe Pique? Why do you think the stock of center backs has fallen so much?

Share your thoughts.

We should realize that tactics have changed a lot in the last 10 years, back from the time that we grew up with football and idolize the players of that previous era as well, and the rules are much more different (against defenders). Add to that, defenders are much more scrutinized because of more video footage.

I don't think there is any dearth of defending talent today and there are just as good defenders today as there were previously, the only difference is that they are exposed a lot more because of the tactics being used by teams now. Just compare the goals scored by strikers today to what was considered world class previously. Shevchenko was the worlds best striker but his AC Milan tally is 175 goals in 322 games (29 in 59 UCL), compare that to:

Lewandowski with 214 in 260 for Bayern (42 in 56 UCL)
Aguero with 244 in 353 for City (34 in 57 UCL)
Kane with 174 in 268 for Spurs (18 in 23 UCL)

You have 3 strikers in this last decade with vastly superior goalscoring records to a players considered to be the best striker of his generation. Are they all better than Sheva? Ofcourse not. Is it because of the quality of defenders Shevchenko played against defenders in his league compared to the rest? That should be negated by the UCL record, which is also considerably worst than all others, so ofcourse not as well. Shevchenko won the Golden Ball off the back of a 28 goal season, Lukaku scored 27 and was called shite by his own fans.

And the above are disregarding the absolute freaks which are Messi and Ronaldo. The sheer amount of goalscoring we're seeing from strikers is something I cannot remember since I started watching football. You'd have to go back to the 60's and before to see such prolific goalscorers throughout Europe.

The difference is down the tactics being used, which is much more attacking and possession based, rather than slower buildup being seen previously. Defenders are also taught to play differently, playing from the back is a lot more risky and so can lead to mistakes, which are pounced upon for criticism. I think many defenders of yesteryear would be making mistakes themselves if they were told to play the same style.

Pique, Ramos, Hummels, Boateng, Van Diyk, Godin, Bonnuci, Chiellini etc are all world class defenders and have been as good as the players mentioned above. Their game is just a lot more scrutinized any small mistakes are pinpointed and criticized endlessly (people can put a video of Boateng being pissed on by Messi and I've seen a match were Maldini and Nesta were made mugs by Dortmund back in the day).

I highlighted Lucio for a reason because he's a prime example of how much tactics can effect a defenders game. He was nowhere near world class for Bayern, worse than the defenders given above, but when he went to Mourinho's Inter, who played much more defensively than Bayern, he suddenly looked like the best defender in the world. That's my point regarding this whole notion that there isn't any central defensive talent these days, I don't agree with it at all.

 

[Red_toad]

In a world where fans accept lindelof as being a good enough CB I totally agree with the OP

Ah that’s only a small but very vocal bunch of Swedes... sorry fans


Juve are blessed with their defensive players, De Ligt and Demiral 'should’ be a great pairing once Chellini and Bonucci are finished.

 

[bosnian_red]

VVD isn't fit to lace the boots of the aforementioned legend btw

I know he plays for Liverpool but his last season was probably as good as any season a CB has had in recent memory. Players like Rio and Vidic for us, Terry for Chelsea, Puyol/Pique for Barca and Ramos for Madrid have had much longer spells at the top, but over the last 2 years Van Dijks peak has been on the same tier. Liverpool probably winning the league this season after winning the Champione League last season will likely solidify that.

 

[bosnian_red]

I'm not too sure Sol Campbell, Terry or even Ferdinand would be that great in todays type of game. These days defenders need pace too, and many of those legends mentioned above had 0 pace. Back in their days, full backs did not attack. The centre backs had way more help defending.

So much wrong with this post...

 

[Adam-Utd]

I know he plays for Liverpool but his last season was probably as good as any season a CB has had in recent memory. Players like Rio and Vidic for us, Terry for Chelsea, Puyol/Pique for Barca and Ramos for Madrid have had much longer spells at the top, but over the last 2 years Van Dijks peak has been on the same tier. Liverpool probably winning the league this season after winning the Champione League last season will likely solidify that.

People only say it because he plays for Liverpool tbh. If he’s at Barca the caf would be creaming their pants.

I hope they try to sign him actually!

I'm not too sure Sol Campbell, Terry or even Ferdinand would be that great in todays type of game. These days defenders need pace too, and many of those legends mentioned above had 0 pace. Back in their days, full backs did not attack. The centre backs had way more help defending.

You’ve had a mare here pal Campbell and Ferdinand were absolutely rapid!

 

[Steven Seagull]

Yes of this generation. Thats the OPs point.

He is nowhere near as good as Vidic rio terry etc etc that the prem has had over the years let alone the likes of serie a

I don’t with the idea that he’s “nowhere near” as good. That’s my point. He is up there and another good season will cement his place there. I don’t think everyone needs to play 400 games for a club to be recognised as one of the best

 

[TheThingThatShouldNotBe]

I’d say the same of goalkeepers and midfielders.

We definitely went though a crazy period where there was an insane amount of talent across the leagues, from the mid 2000’s to just before Fergie retired say.

The thinner talent pool has made buying players very difficult, as you guys well know. Very few sure things out there now.

 

[mwake]

VVD definitely has the lot, people sometimes wear rose colored glasses about past defenders. Yes of couser there are some great defenders who played in sides that won lots of titles. But if you put aside titles won VVD is as good as some of the best defenders, strong, fast, intelligent, can pass short and long and wins headers for fun, is a born leader, all this and he plays in a team that plays a extremely high line, what more could you ask for?