UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

How do you intend to vote in the 2019 General Election if eligible?

  • Brexit Party

    Votes: 30 4.3%
  • Conservatives

    Votes: 73 10.6%
  • DUP

    Votes: 5 0.7%
  • Green

    Votes: 23 3.3%
  • Labour

    Votes: 355 51.4%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 58 8.4%
  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 3 0.4%
  • Sinn Fein

    Votes: 9 1.3%
  • SNP

    Votes: 19 2.8%
  • UKIP

    Votes: 6 0.9%
  • Independent

    Votes: 1 0.1%
  • Other (BNP, Change UK, UUP and anyone else that I have forgotten)

    Votes: 10 1.4%
  • Not voting

    Votes: 57 8.3%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 41 5.9%

  • Total voters
    690
  • Poll closed .
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sun_tzu

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Here they are -

If this projection turns out to be accurate, then it's even more gutting for those who wish to remain in the EU.

Interesting
Datapraxis ran their own MRP model on the yougov data set early this week and came out with similar results
It does show though that even off the same data set the assumptions you make in modeling are pretty important.


I suspect we will see more MRP models emerge over the next week or so and it will be interesting to see if they all show similar pictures of a relatively comfortable conservative win or if with different assumptions some come in as a hung parliament
 

Baxter

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Any idea as to why? To a simple mind, SNP want Scottish independence and the tories want a large majority, wouldn't a coalition between the 2 guarantee them both just that?
The SNP would be finished if they got into bed with the Tories.
 

SteveJ

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Nigerian people and British single mothers in Boris Johnson's firing line:
In the column on single mothers, published in the Spectator in 1995, Johnson wrote that “uppity and irresponsible women” had a “natural desire to have babies” and that ways must be found to ensure they married.

Johnson blamed single mothers for “producing a generation of ill-raised, ignorant, aggressive and illegitimate children”, saying that social housing was an enticement for them to become pregnant.
Johnson accused of racial stereotyping with view on Nigerians ~
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...of-racial-stereotyping-with-view-on-nigerians
 

Fluctuation0161

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I've been pretty busy [this is hectic and unpredictable], so apologies for my lack of posts containing bad insights here and there.

My current prediction for the GE is a possible Labour minority government, and a hung Parliament. I don't want to go too far into the nuts and bolts, but a few indicators regarding Conservative voter complacency and a large demographic change from usual polls leads me to believe the current models are possibly out by a few percentage points. These are still very good predictions, but in our system 2% here or there will swing loads of seats.

There are problems with this position. Corbyn is a walking timebomb, and the Cons are good at weaponising this. However the chief rabbis statement won't hurt him, and if anything is likely to draw him more votes where it matters, given the undercurrent of anti-semitism in the UK, especially in Labour leave heartlands. Both the Lib dems and Brexit party seem to be currently imploding, and this will bear relevance too.

Will be back with a bumper post sooner or later about the US Supreme Court vs Trump.... It's an interesting one, and their court system is taking quite a while for me to fully understand.

Ps. As an unrelated aside. @2cents your posts are excellent and a pleasure to read. I've long maintained that Corbyn, although not seeing himself as an Anti Semite is well accustomed to such tropes and feelings, simply because of his Marxist background growing up in the Soviet Era, when such things (Anti Zionism and Anti Semitism from a Soviet pov) were only natural. He's been around them his whole life.
Totally disagree with most of your post. But hey, at least you found time. X
 

Fluctuation0161

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That model has completely assumed the youth increase in 2017 was actually a myth based on this paper

https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/deliver...1076067101118005068067066078070078031&EXT=pdf

Which with a sample size of 109 18-24 year olds polled just seems... pretty meaningless?

The Youthquake in 2017 was just completely obviously going to happen after Brexit the year before, I can't even believe there's any sort of controversy about it, it's just common sense that we had a more politically stimulated youth after an election and brexit in the space of 2 years, when compared to 2015 where literally nothing happened for 5 years.
Good points. Backed up with data. Thanks.
 

Classical Mechanic

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The science was only applied with the data collected up until that time. And thints didn’t change much in the last two weeks. There’s no way to predict what would happen in the next two weeks and I’m sure they’ll do one before election night which will be closer to what might happen.

According to the poll the Conservatives are set to gain 43 seats from Labour however the swing required in some of them is as much as 20%.That’s a tad far fetched in my opinion.
You're obviously entitled to think that, and it was the exact reasoning I used to assume the 2017 one was wrong. But big changes in voter behaviour can and do happen. We'll have to see. I think it'll narrow a bit more.
I've always felt that this was a Brexit election and that would be the big catalyst for a change in voter behaviour.

The SNP would be finished if they got into bed with the Tories.
I think on the quiet the SNP will be happy with a Tory government because it will enable them to build the divide between the UK and Scotland through rhetoric and make independence more likely in 5-10 years time.

There's no way on earth that any UK govt could allow a referendum in 2020 so why are the SNP crying so loudly for it to happen? So when it doesn't they can accuse Westminster of 'thwarting the will of the Scottish people' and so on.
 

Fluctuation0161

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He undoubtedly is but the problem is Johnson should be too. The man is clearly an idiot and that's ignoring his more sinister BS.
Boris Johnson should be the winner in who is most unelectable. Unfortunately media coverage has told us the opposite for a good few years now.
 

sun_tzu

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I've always felt that this was a Brexit election and that would be the big catalyst for a change in voter behaviour.



I think on the quiet the SNP will be happy with a Tory government because it will enable them to build the divide between the UK and Scotland through rhetoric and make independence more likely in 5-10 years time.

There's no way on earth that any UK govt could allow a referendum in 2020 so why are the SNP crying so loudly for it to happen? So when it doesn't they can accuse Westminster of 'thwarting the will of the Scottish people' and so on.
Partially that - I think also there is a hope that if they have an indy ref before the end of the transition period with the EU it will be possible for them to basically extend that transition period for scotland only whilst they apply for full EU membership... that would obviously be more difficult (probably impossible) after the end of the transition period

I think basically the border issues between an EU scotland and a non EU UK would make that pretty unworkable in practical terms but can see the logic from the SNP about making it part of an indy ref (basically we guarantee that scotland can remain in Europe... which also plays in to the thwarting the will of the scottish people narrative as well
 
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EwanI Ted

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Looks like a change in approach from Labour. From the Beeb

The Labour Party is to re-shape its general election campaign strategy - particularly in Leave-voting areas - to try to turn around a stubborn Conservative opinion poll lead.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50580699

Essentially they don't see much threat from the Lib Dems and are going to be targeting Leave areas, talking up the benefits of a Labour deal and the risks of a Johnson deal.
 

EwanI Ted

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Classical Mechanic

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This is an interesting article I read this week, discussing the scale of the change in voting patterns that Brexit has triggered. The change in the Tory Party vote over the past 4 years in particularly is pretty astounding.

https://www.thearticle.com/peter-kellner-some-of-the-most-startling-polling-numbers-i-have-ever-seen
It looks like Boris's strategy from the end of last parliament, where they framed Labour and parliament as the enemy of the people, and through the election campaign so far has worked as well as they could have expected.

Another interesting thing the Tories have done is sidelined the likes Rees-Mogg and put a lot of minority candidates forward for TV interviews etc in order to change their traditional image. The bloke they're putting forward for the Channel 4 debate is someone I'd never even heard of.
 

Kentonio

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Trump apparently visiting the UK next week. Where he’ll inevitably interfere in the election, and everyone will pretend it’s a big surprise and scandal.
 

sun_tzu

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Trump apparently visiting the UK next week. Where he’ll inevitably interfere in the election, and everyone will pretend it’s a big surprise and scandal.
I suspect he may mention that the NHS is not for sale (repeatedly) ... though who knows with trump he could do anything from slag off johnsons deal to basically announce (a completly un-negotiated) trade deal with the UK ready to sign

I think its the Nato summit so I guess potentially a few leaders over who will be hounded to say something on the election - corbyns renegotiation plans etc ... will be interesting to see if macron or merkel say anything as well
 

EwanI Ted

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That’s gonna be a tough sell, considering the general feeling about labours brexit position
Labour are trying to walk a tightrope by talking up their deal without it sounding like they're actually in favour of Leave. On a constituency by constituency basis they need more Leave votes, but they also need to keep squeezing the Lib Dems on Remain. Funnily enough, if they can get less press for this - making sure that pro-Leave campaigning only gets heard on a local platform rather than the national one - it might work for them. But if the national headlines for the next few days are full of Labour talking about how great it will be to Leave the EU under a Labour Government, they could easily lose votes from one group even as they gain from another.
 

Fingeredmouse

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I think on the quiet the SNP will be happy with a Tory government because it will enable them to build the divide between the UK and Scotland through rhetoric and make independence more likely in 5-10 years time.

There's no way on earth that any UK govt could allow a referendum in 2020 so why are the SNP crying so loudly for it to happen? So when it doesn't they can accuse Westminster of 'thwarting the will of the Scottish people' and so on.
Of course but that is hugely different from supporting them in Parliament or, even worse, coalition. That would destroy the SNP.
 

sebsheep

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can't remember the specifics of what he said, but he might have used vague rhetoric along the lines of - 'we have no intention to go into coalition with anyone, we're planning on a majority etc', i.e no plans to enter a formal coalition.
Wouldn't surprise me really, can never really trust what politicians say. Odd that we have these people running the country in light of that though!
 

Fluctuation0161

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I suspect he may mention that the NHS is not for sale (repeatedly) ... though who knows with trump he could do anything from slag off johnsons deal to basically announce (a completly un-negotiated) trade deal with the UK ready to sign

I think its the Nato summit so I guess potentially a few leaders over who will be hounded to say something on the election - corbyns renegotiation plans etc ... will be interesting to see if macron or merkel say anything as well
Yep. That sounds about right. Will the electorate buy it?

I'm sure he'll be well prepped by Tory advisors on how to influence the election in their favour for his brother from another mother!
 

nickm

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Spot on.

England's shifted too much to the right for Corbyn to ever be a realistic winner. I would say the media propaganda against him doesn't help but that would be true for any Labour leader tbf.
It’s not just the leader though, it’s their programme. Even if it was all perfectly costed and it stacked up, and there was a broad consensus for the need for it, does anyone believe they would be up to the job of delivering it?
 

Kentonio

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I suspect he may mention that the NHS is not for sale (repeatedly) ... though who knows with trump he could do anything from slag off johnsons deal to basically announce (a completly un-negotiated) trade deal with the UK ready to sign

I think its the Nato summit so I guess potentially a few leaders over who will be hounded to say something on the election - corbyns renegotiation plans etc ... will be interesting to see if macron or merkel say anything as well
I’m expecting a big ‘vote Boris! Corbyn is a communist!’ rant. And everyone will pretend to be shocked by him interfering in the election.
 

Smores

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Labour are trying to walk a tightrope by talking up their deal without it sounding like they're actually in favour of Leave. On a constituency by constituency basis they need more Leave votes, but they also need to keep squeezing the Lib Dems on Remain. Funnily enough, if they can get less press for this - making sure that pro-Leave campaigning only gets heard on a local platform rather than the national one - it might work for them. But if the national headlines for the next few days are full of Labour talking about how great it will be to Leave the EU under a Labour Government, they could easily lose votes from one group even as they gain from another.
Personally i think this election is so far showing what a mistake it was for Labour to appear as a remain ish party.

There's not enough remainers and the leavers will vote Boris no matter how much of a fool he is.
 
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Trump apparently visiting the UK next week. Where he’ll inevitably interfere in the election, and everyone will pretend it’s a big surprise and scandal.
You mean like that time when Obama was asked, he suggested the UK was probably better of in the EU, where Nigel Farage was subsequently completely up in arms about foreign interference in domestic UK politics? The same Nigel Farage who constantly goes abroad to the US for getting help on Brexit? The same Nigel Farage that happily got Trump on the line in his own radio show and suggesting him to interfere in UK domestic politics (including an attempt to pressure Johnson to go for no deal) on Farage's behalf with leading questions and likely pre-scripted answers and narrative? The same kind of interference controversy where Trump has been openly pushing the UK since his election campaign in 2015 to break away from the EU (as he has tried to pick off other countries like France, but failed) so he can pick them off for toxic US trade deals through divide and conquer?

Gee, how could that possibly result in something scandalous? :lol:


What a slowly moving trainwreck. :/ Can't stop watching it happen either.

It's almost as bad as a good Boris Johnson hairday. Almost.
 

EwanI Ted

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Personally i think this election is so far showing what a mistake it was for Labour to appear as a remain ish party.

There's not enough remainers and the leavers will vote Boris no matter how much of a fool he is.
I'm not sure what the alternative is though. Appearing as a Leave party would not only split the party internally but would have stalled the limited revival they've had in the campaign so far, which has largely come from Lib Dem voters. If the Lib Dems were offering a second referendum and Labour were offering nothing to Remain voters, I think Labour would be much worse off than they are now. And I'm not sure that Labour could ever match the rhetoric of Farage and Johnson. For them, its about sticking two fingers up to the EU, and lots of people like that. Labour could never sincerely take that approach.

My view is that the one way to handle this was to change people's minds over the past 3 years, rather than try to find incredibly narrow electoral positions in the short campaign. Whether convincing Leavers to stick with Remain, or convincing Remainers to leave, neither is easy. But the divide between Leave and Remain is so large that a single policy that will satisfy both appears to be impossible.
 

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given the popularity of trump in the UK that would probably be a boost for corbyn rather than Johnson I think
Certainly, but the joyful part is that Boris can't actually ask him not to do it, because Trump is such an egotist that he'd certainly be deeply offended and cause Boris trouble elsewhere. Plus probably whining about the whole thing on Twitter anyway.
 

Kentonio

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Personally i think this election is so far showing what a mistake it was for Labour to appear as a remain ish party.

There's not enough remainers and the leavers will vote Boris no matter how much of a fool he is.
Huh? Not sure what you're saying here.
 

Kaos

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given the popularity of trump in the UK that would probably be a boost for corbyn rather than Johnson I think
I suspect he’s not as unpopular as we think. The leavers seem to adore him for one. I suspect those with strong views on immigration (an increasingly large number) will also harbour favourable opinions.
 

Smores

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Huh? Not sure what you're saying here.
I'm saying Labour shouldn't have gone neutral, they should have sold the idea they're a leave party. It would have lost seats to the Lib Dems but they'd maybe retain enough seats to then do a coalition and have a second referendum.

Alternatively they should have all grown the feck up and forced a government of national unity led by Corbyn.
 

Classical Mechanic

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I'm saying Labour shouldn't have gone neutral, they should have sold the idea they're a leave party. It would have lost seats to the Lib Dems but they'd maybe retain enough seats to then do a coalition and have a second referendum.

Alternatively they should have all grown the feck up and forced a government of national unity led by Corbyn.
I tend to agree with you, it's a fairly impossible position but they should have stuck with Leave consistently all the way through. Blocking a GE for so long was a big error also, it allowed the Tories to cast them as baddies to Brexiteers. Labour should have gone after the Tory deal and vowed to get a better one as a Leave party. That way, what they're offering in terms of spending etc would have cut through much better than it has done.

They spent far too much time flip flopping and hiding from the issue, however. This gradually eroded all credibility on the issue and is all on them.
 

sun_tzu

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I'm saying Labour shouldn't have gone neutral, they should have sold the idea they're a leave party. It would have lost seats to the Lib Dems but they'd maybe retain enough seats to then do a coalition and have a second referendum.

Alternatively they should have all grown the feck up and forced a government of national unity led by Corbyn.
Apparently they are now going to run 2 campaigns
pushing remain credentials in remain areas (lost track of how many people on here say remainers must vote labour)
and leave credentials in leave areas
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50580699
 
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Kaos

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I'm saying Labour shouldn't have gone neutral, they should have sold the idea they're a leave party. It would have lost seats to the Lib Dems but they'd maybe retain enough seats to then do a coalition and have a second referendum.

Alternatively they should have all grown the feck up and forced a government of national unity led by Corbyn.
The majority of Labour voters are remainers, as are young people. They’d be obliterated if they back leave balls deep.
 

Classical Mechanic

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The majority of Labour voters are remainers, as are young people. They’d be obliterated if they back leave balls deep.
I doubt it, the demographic that you are talking about are ideologically driven. I think most would have stuck with the fundamental ideological aims of Labour. The middle aged, middle class centrists would have been a different matter.
 

Smores

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The majority of Labour voters are remainers, as are young people. They’d be obliterated if they back leave balls deep.
It's a sacrifice to the Lib Dems that had to be made. Labour were never getting a majority so It's better for voters to go Lib Dem than Tory. Going leave would have meant Lib dems maintained course on a 2nd referendum in all likelihood.

I've not given up hope on a hung parliament but with the Lib dems doing so poorly on the revoke platform i worry they won't get the southern seats needed.
 

Paul the Wolf

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I'm saying Labour shouldn't have gone neutral, they should have sold the idea they're a leave party. It would have lost seats to the Lib Dems but they'd maybe retain enough seats to then do a coalition and have a second referendum.

Alternatively they should have all grown the feck up and forced a government of national unity led by Corbyn.
I would say it's the exact opposite. Remainers don't know where to go. Other than the most ardent Corbynista few people could believe Corbyn favours remain. Trying to please everyone gets you nowhere.
 
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