UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

How do you intend to vote in the 2019 General Election if eligible?

  • Brexit Party

    Votes: 30 4.3%
  • Conservatives

    Votes: 73 10.6%
  • DUP

    Votes: 5 0.7%
  • Green

    Votes: 23 3.3%
  • Labour

    Votes: 355 51.4%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 58 8.4%
  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 3 0.4%
  • Sinn Fein

    Votes: 9 1.3%
  • SNP

    Votes: 19 2.8%
  • UKIP

    Votes: 6 0.9%
  • Independent

    Votes: 1 0.1%
  • Other (BNP, Change UK, UUP and anyone else that I have forgotten)

    Votes: 10 1.4%
  • Not voting

    Votes: 57 8.3%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 41 5.9%

  • Total voters
    690
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

berbatrick

Renaissance Man
Scout
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
21,843
I think you’re right but I think Corbyn is rejected by the public mostly based on personality, or rather media projection of his personality, rather than his policies. When I see his policies, although I’m not in favour of them myself, it baffles me that they aren’t a bit win for voters, because by and large they increase income for poorer families. Only think I can conclude is that a) personality > policies b) media play a massive role c) his brexit position is an unequivocal disaster
i have nothing better to do so i was looking at some polling and every single thing in the labour anifesto that they asked about was massively popular.
abolishing charitable status of pvt schools - +41,-19; building 100k council homes +62,-12; nationalising railways +47,-20; abolishing tuition +51,-20.


corbyn: +22,-58.
 

Classical Mechanic

Full Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
35,216
Location
xG Zombie Nation
I saw that Ireland voted against some EU tax avoidance reforms last week too with a think tank warning that their economy could collapse if international tax avoidance was tackled.
 

nickm

Full Member
Joined
May 20, 2001
Messages
9,210
Ok, how about when combined with Theresa May cosying up with Erdogan? Who also has made anti semitic comments. She was the first western leader to visit him after the 2016 coup and then brought him to the UK for a controversial 3 day official visit in 2018.

I assume that now the example is not by itself, you have 3 instances/examples, you will show a level of concern?

https://www.ft.com/content/366b1d62-e55c-11e6-893c-082c54a7f539

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/12/24/erdogans-anti-semitism-will-sink-turkeys-economy/

https://www.ft.com/content/5eac7548-5395-11e8-b3ee-41e0209208ec
I'm just not sure what conclusions you can draw about an individual's private beliefs when they are acting as leaders of, and in the interests of, their respective nations. You wouldn't say Reagan was a commie for meeting Gorbachev would you?

I do think there are grounds for believing May can be challenged on racism in general by the way based on her public policy: Windrush, hostile environment, ending of free movement etc. But I think your anti semitic argument is really thin and you are only advancing it to try to excuse your hero.
 
Last edited:

T00lsh3d

T00ly O' Sh3d
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
8,651
i have nothing better to do so i was looking at some polling and every single thing in the labour anifesto that they asked about was massively popular.
abolishing charitable status of pvt schools - +41,-19; building 100k council homes +62,-12; nationalising railways +47,-20; abolishing tuition +51,-20.


corbyn: +22,-58.
Definitely confirms what I’m saying. It’s funny because do I think he’s a terrorist-sympathising anti-Semite? No. Do I disagree with his economic policies? Wholeheartedly
 

finneh

Full Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
7,318
Your conclusion/analysis is obviously erroneous, as the article clearly states. Was this an intentional attempt at propaganda or an honest mistake?

And if 2010-2016 hasn't taught you the dangers of a budget surplus when interest rates are low, then likely nothing will.The problem isn't and never was the deficit, it's productivity stagnation/decline. Under this conservative government, productivity has fallen to almost the 2008 recession level. Brexit will simply harm this further.

Zero hour contracts, too many degrees, austerity, morale, lack of investment (lolol brexit), real wages fall ... again these zero hour contracts and your Romanian cleaners are harming productivity. (less costs, more workers, less productivity).

This is why the Conservatives as I said, have screwed the pooch. Note I'm not saying Corbyn wouldn't be worse. But Brown was most certainly light years ahead.
I didn't post the speculative parts of the article because they are just that... Speculative. The bits you've quoted literally state "may", "could", "might" several times as below.

I agree productivity is a bit problem but being productive and running a surplus aren't mutually exclusive... Germany have been doing it for years. In fact I'd argue low taxes promote greater investment which promotes greater productivity. I'd argue the tax and spend conservative policies of the last decade have depressed productivity (although this is a problem for many western high tax economies).

I obviously disagree with your statement regarding zero hour contracts as all that I've read on this front states they suit the majority of people who opt for them. My Romanian cleaners are doing in 1 hour what my full time cleaners did in 1.25 hours... They're more productive simply because they work more efficiently (less chatting, less distracting other staff, they don't get paid for not turning up etc)... They earn more per hour than the previous cleaners also. Which I believe over the last few years is a common theme (real terms wage growth), which you'd always expect to lag after a destructive recession.

I'll finish saying that if Blair had stuck to a more responsible 3% spending increase per annum between 1999 and 2006 we'd have been able to spend at £80b extra per annum 2008 -2010 and still be in the same position whilst almost certainly avoiding the worst of the recession. That's the ridiculousness of spending everything you have when times are great, you merely screw yourself over when times aren't (which is almost always less than a decade away). Every family knows you build up a nest egg when times are good.

Have a good weekend though as I'm sure you completely disagree!

"It should be borne in mind however that the extra inputs received may have improved the quality of the output in ways not..."

"period from 2001 to 2007 then the quality of public services might have deteriorated".

"It could also be the case that diminishing marginal returns"

"It may also be the case that the impact of extra inputs on outputs only shows up fully with a lag"

"This could explain why productivity and “bang for each buck”

"However there may be good reasons to expect productivity growth to differ"

"new technologies and management processes may boost productivity in some industries but not others.
 

RedChip

Full Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Messages
2,204
Location
In Lee
I tend to think the short window to strike the trade deal was simply aesthetics for this election, to make it look to the electorate that the ordeal would be over soon. With a majority they can pass any extension with no issue and it would be so early in their term that I doubt it would carry much weight into the next election. Personally I’d be surprised if Boris’s true intent would be to no deal in a years time.
The problem is that it will be a majority of right wingers. I think they will sacrifice Boris if he reneges on not extending.
 

EwanI Ted

Full Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2018
Messages
1,755

It's the hope that hurts.

If we do end up with a hung parliament and we have to go through another general election i think Labour will need to change leader. Stick Starmer in charge, drop a few policies such as broadband and royal mail nationalisation and then go again. I think the momentum of the rest of the manifesto and a new face over them might convince enough for a majority. I'd bet on it being Starmer vs Gove
Starmer doesn’t have anything like the internal support to win. He was one of those that resigned in the 2016 coup. The first successor will certainly be a Corbyn loyalist.

If anything I’d say the next leader will have to go further than the current manifesto rather than sand off the rough edges, because they have to win a vote from among the membership. The nature of that campaign will always be people trying to outdo each other. No candidate is going to go out to the members saying that we could win next time if we just compromised a little. To lose again would depress members, but not so much as to turn away from Corbynism just yet.
 

11101

Full Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
21,378
You're conveniently (and probably deliberately) ignoring the fact that a lot of the Scandinavian states do quite well in this regard - albeit without the rampant inequality of Hong Kong or authoritarianism of Singapore. To suggest lowering taxes is the only successful method of economic improvement is, in this regard, remarkably dishonest. There are plenty of states who perform strongly on the basis of having strong welfare states with heavy government interventionism, albeit with the private sector still being prevalent as well.

Cases like Luxembourg and Singapore are inherently different to larger states as well - a smaller state has less divergence in terms of geography etc and thus you're a lot less likely to have economic disparity between different regions or states. The population are therefore perhaps more likely to be integrated in this regard - an economic boom for London might not necessarily translate to Glasgow or Belfast or Newcastle, whereas an economic boom for Singapore is more likely to benefit the overall country's GDP.
Equally the Scandinavian states have advantages that allow them to do that.

Norway has a huge oil fund backing up their liabilities (we wasted ours long ago), whilst Sweden was never saddled with decades of post war rebuilding like we were. Finland did have some reparations to pay but it was all cleared by the early 1950s and was nothing like on the same scale of the rest of Western Europe. Their models might have worked in the UK once upon a time but not now.
 

nickm

Full Member
Joined
May 20, 2001
Messages
9,210
i have nothing better to do so i was looking at some polling and every single thing in the labour anifesto that they asked about was massively popular.
abolishing charitable status of pvt schools - +41,-19; building 100k council homes +62,-12; nationalising railways +47,-20; abolishing tuition +51,-20.


corbyn: +22,-58.
Popular indeed - spending money always is. But I wonder what reply the'd get if they'd also asked how credible the policies were, or deliverable?
 

berbatrick

Renaissance Man
Scout
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
21,843
Popular indeed - spending money always is. But I wonder what reply the'd get if they'd also asked how credible the policies were, or deliverable?
they might reply with various versions of feck off, or, if there is a cosmic sense of humour, gerronwivit
 

sebsheep

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
Jun 1, 2014
Messages
11,390
Location
Here
The post wasn't meant to be conclusive analytical proof of economic utopia.

I would say to look at Ireland's growth since 2010 and the benefits it's brought to every citizen of the country. Likewise Hong Kong from 1980 - 2000 or Singaplore over the last few decades. Switzerland has had it nailed for years, Monaco likewise. Fast growth is the best means of increasing revenue. Increasing spend without fast growth is the best means of stunting revenue.

A mixed bag of varied economic fortunes all outperforming their worldwide equivalents with a low tax (% GDP), low spend (% GDP), high growth mantra.

However we've gone down the French route of tax, spend, stagnant growth and colossal deficit
You are selling it as a better economic system though, but unless these countries have little to no poverty without exploiting other countries somewhere down the line I don't really see how you can say that.


I'd prefer a society with 10 people earning £30k, 10 people earning £70k and 10 people earning £5m (whereby the mean is c. 25x the medium), rather than a society where everyone earns £30k and the mean matches the medium. Even from a socialist perspective think of all those juicy taxes you can squeeze from the former category.
Why do you put everyone on the lowest wage there? Where does all the other money go? If you're telling us there is £51m for wages, why not have everyone on £1.7m? Then you can make sure you get just as much of those juicy taxes without having people earning around 166,667x more than others?
 

Fluctuation0161

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
8,178
Location
Manchester
I'm just not sure what conclusions you can draw about an individual's private beliefs when they are acting as leaders of, and in the interests of, their respective nations. You wouldn't say Reagan was a commie for meeting Gorbachev would you?

I do think there are grounds for believing May can be challenged on racism in general by the way based on her public policy: Windrush, hostile environment, ending of free movement etc. But I think your anti semitic argument is really thin and you are only advancing it to try to excuse your hero.
I'm simply pointing out your inconsistencies and hypocrisy when it comes to evaluating a politician's potential anti semitism. As commented on by another poster you are very quick to wave thin arguments around for Corbyn. You are equally quick to dismiss arguments for Theresa May.

Your double standards are very telling.

PS. I don't have a "hero". Just a pragmatic choice in this election.
 

Fluctuation0161

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
8,178
Location
Manchester
I'd not heard of the book Boris Johnson wrote in the early 2004. Sounds terrible.

What does Boris Johnson’s terrible novel Seventy-Two Virgins tell us about him?
It’s sexist, racist fundamentally undiplomatic, and stars a tousled, bicycling Tory MP who believes everything is up for grabs

"...Arabs are casually noted to have “hook noses” and “slanty eyes”; a mixed-race Briton is called “coffee-coloured”; and there are mentions of “pikeys” and people who are “half-caste”.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/jul/17/boris-johnson-seventy-two-virgins-novel
 

Lennon7

nipple flasher and door destroyer
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
10,480
Location
M5
Not seen this pitiful appearance of Boris’ in the Andrew Marr show before (Click) but it’s absolutely pathetic. It saddens me that anyone thinks that this man and his party are right for this country.
 

nickm

Full Member
Joined
May 20, 2001
Messages
9,210
I'm simply pointing out your inconsistencies and hypocrisy when it comes to evaluating a politician's potential anti semitism. As commented on by another poster you are very quick to wave thin arguments around for Corbyn. You are equally quick to dismiss arguments for Theresa May.

Your double standards are very telling.
No double standards, I think you could argue May is racist on other grounds. Just not the shite ones you've chosen to debate on.
 

sun_tzu

The Art of Bore
Joined
Aug 23, 2010
Messages
19,536
Location
Still waiting for the Youthquake
I'd not heard of the book Boris Johnson wrote in the early 2004. Sounds terrible.

What does Boris Johnson’s terrible novel Seventy-Two Virgins tell us about him?
It’s sexist, racist fundamentally undiplomatic, and stars a tousled, bicycling Tory MP who believes everything is up for grabs

"...Arabs are casually noted to have “hook noses” and “slanty eyes”; a mixed-race Briton is called “coffee-coloured”; and there are mentions of “pikeys” and people who are “half-caste”.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/jul/17/boris-johnson-seventy-two-virgins-novel
Plot summary from.wiki
. The President of the United States plans to visit the Palace of Westminster. A Lebanese-born terrorist aims to assassinate him; Roger Barlow, a hapless, bicycle-riding, tousled-haired MP (obviously based on the author) aims to foil the attack in order to distract from a scandal involving his financial entanglement in a Lingerie shop named Eulalie.
It seems Boris is th star of his own book as well
 

Pexbo

Winner of the 'I'm not reading that' medal.
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
68,843
Location
Brizzle
Supports
Big Days
BBC U-turn shocker. Marr should spend the entire slot asking Johnson why he is ducking the AN interview until he gets an honest answer.
Never in a million years happen but it would be incredible if Marr was "taken ill" 10 minutes before the interview and Neil was subbed in.
 

Cheesy

Bread with dipping sauce
Scout
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Messages
36,181
Never in a million years happen but it would be incredible if Marr was "taken ill" 10 minutes before the interview and Neil was subbed in.
Marr sits down, only to pull off his face to reveal...Andrew Neil.
 

Smores

Full Member
Joined
May 18, 2011
Messages
25,614

Can't wait to hear about scones.
What a shambles, their resistance lasted a single day and using a terrorist attack as an excuse as well. Pathetic from them absolutely pathetic
 

Cheesy

Bread with dipping sauce
Scout
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Messages
36,181
In all seriousness though, these debates/interviews need to be monitored and regulated in some way. It's contentious how useful they are, but if we are going to do them then they should be an actual set in stone thing, instead of something politicians deliberate on for weeks as to whether they want to do it or not.
 

Pexbo

Winner of the 'I'm not reading that' medal.
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
68,843
Location
Brizzle
Supports
Big Days
Marr sits down, only to pull off his face to reveal...Andrew Neil.
End of the interview, Neil pulls off his face to reveal...
Rebekah Vardy
 

Pexbo

Winner of the 'I'm not reading that' medal.
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
68,843
Location
Brizzle
Supports
Big Days
In all seriousness though, these debates/interviews need to be monitored and regulated in some way. It's contentious how useful they are, but if we are going to do them then they should be an actual set in stone thing, instead of something politicians deliberate on for weeks as to whether they want to do it or not.

They need to start using NLP's to moderate the impartiality of BBC journalists. There's really effective models out there which can be used to gauge people's bias by analysing their phrasing.
 

Smores

Full Member
Joined
May 18, 2011
Messages
25,614
Posted before but i don't think this gets the coverage it deserves. Johnson colluded to get to a journalist assaulted and on reflection its amusing apparently.

 

Cheesy

Bread with dipping sauce
Scout
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Messages
36,181
Posted before but i don't think this gets the coverage it deserves. Johnson colluded to get to a journalist assaulted and on reflection its amusing apparently.

It's astonishing this isn't talked about more often, the reaction is even grimmer though.
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
6,782
Location
Ireland
Not at all - the minimum wage was one of Labour's great achievements. The process for setting it should be independent from the government of the day though, as envisaged by the legislation.
Yeah, a tenner an hour is feck all money, it's not like he's making it unrealistic.
 

Pexbo

Winner of the 'I'm not reading that' medal.
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
68,843
Location
Brizzle
Supports
Big Days

omg stop threating them
 

Kaos

Full Member
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
31,885
Location
Ginseng Strip

Can't wait to hear about scones.
Absolutely disgusting.

Insensitive of me to say this perhaps but I wouldn't put it past his campaign team to be relieved that yesterday's horrific events gave them some reprieve to escape the proper scrutiny he'd get from Andrew Neil.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.