UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[Berbasbullet]

Being focused on improving the minimum level of public service offered, while also supporting the private sector. Being relaxed about inequality as long as society is dynamic (you can be born poor and become rich, and vice versa). Belief that public services should be continuously reformed so as to benefit the consumer, not those doing the providing.

Seems like quite a centrist approach. Thanks for answering my question.

 

[Fiskey]

Then maybe it wouldn’t have been sensible to say they’d have wiped debt by 2014 then?

I thought the debt has gone form just under a trillion to now over 2 trillion? I am happy to be corrected.

They didn't say they would have wiped the debt, they said they would wipe the deficit.

 

[Fiskey]

Well, what do you think social justice means? For me it means looking after the most vulnerable in society, the Tories, as you know, have done the opposite.

To look after the poorest in society the UK does all manner of things, including unemployment benefit, housing benefit, child benefit, state pensions amongst many others and above all provides free healthcare at the point of entry. These things are not up for discussion by any government, either Tories or Labour.

 

[nickm]

Just look at his voting record.

Then look at the media coverage. It is even more biased than Ed Milliband got.

I notice you haven't commented on my previous post about the media coverage Milliband received. Any thoughts? Once again it seems you are only interested in anti semitism news coverage when it involves Corbyn.

What you mean like this shocking stuff - page after page of evidence of nailed on antisemitic racism in the labour party? Choice excerpts here. (And why is this about what I am interested in - isn't this strong evidence of racism in an avowedly anti racist party more important that what I think?)

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[Flying high]

I think they definitely did the right thing in cutting back state welfare, it was at a level that we couldn't afford.

This sounds a very reasonable thing to say. But think of those people who lost out. They likely had nothing spare to begin with.
Consider then, that they decided to spend billions on introducing universal credit, while making those in genuine need, suffer. All while cutting the sort of services that the poorest tend to need more like mental health and community support etc. Not only is it cruel, it is shortsighted, creating far more problems for society costing more in the long term.

I do however agree with you that there should have been much more investment alongside that in building new railways, schools, hospitals etc. I think we could even have done some people's QE and had a time limited basic income while the cuts were ongoing. But some measure of austerity still had to happen as post financial crisis we were a much poorer country than we thought we were.

It sounds very much to me that because you believe in brexit being positive for the uk(still? how? really?) you are prepared to support whichever party will deliver it. That's your choice of course. But be aware of what you are voting for with this bunch of selfish chancers.

 

[Raven]

To look after the poorest in society the UK does all manner of things, including unemployment benefit, housing benefit, child benefit, state pensions amongst many others and above all provides free healthcare at the point of entry. These things are not up for discussion by any government, either Tories or Labour.

And as regards the homelessness? The poverty? The death caused by this very "social democracy"? The abject lies told in political campaigning? The propaganda in the MSM? All of these are assaults on social justice and they're just the tip of the ice berg with Boris and his nasty mates. After a hard Tory Brexit this can only get worse.

So, let me ask you a couple of questions:

1. Do you agree that the concerns I have raised above are not in line with a social democracy? Or are they an assault on social justice?

2. Do you think the a hard Tory Brexit will improve the economy and social standards in Britain? Or do you think it will make them worse?

3. Are you okay with the UK entering an agreement that puts the NHS at risk, by first increasing drug prices to unmanageable levels?

 

[nickm]

I'm sure you're delighted that anti-semetism is back on the main news again, despite there being no actual news about it. The JLM are openly zionist and have always been anti Corbyn.

So what you are saying is because the JLM believes in Israel, their evidence is invalid and should be ignored? That's pretty much the attitude that got the EHRC involved in the first place.

 

[nickm]

I think they definitely did the right thing in cutting back state welfare, it was at a level that we couldn't afford.

I don't think they had a choice, the deficit was 7% of GDP and we'd lost a huge amount of the tax base thanks to the financial crisis. The debate in my mind was how fast they cut - they could have done it in a slower and less damaging way.

 

[Flying high]

So what you are saying is because the JLM believes in Israel, their evidence is invalid and should be ignored?

No. Zionism is not 'believes in Isreal'. That's totally disingenuous, as I'm sure you're aware.

 

[Fiskey]

No. Zionism is not 'believes in Isreal'. That's totally disingenuous, as I'm sure you're aware.

What does Zionism mean now? Is it to do with the settlements?

 

[nickm]

No. Zionism is not 'believes in Isreal'. That's totally disingenuous, as I'm sure you're aware.

OK, how about the fact the report is based on evidence from 70 current and former Labour party officials? If you are going to try to shoot the messenger...

 

[Fiskey]

And as regards the homelessness? The poverty? The death caused by this very "social democracy"? The abject lies told in political campaigning? The propaganda in the MSM? All of these are assaults on social justice and they're just the tip of the ice berg with Boris and his nasty mates. After a hard Tory Brexit this can only get worse.

So, let me ask you a couple of questions:

1. Do you agree that the concerns I have raised above are not in line with a social democracy? Or are they an assault on social justice?

Homelessness is a massive issue and the bull should have been taken by the horns much earlier. Similarly, we shouldn't have people in poverty in our country, given our wealth. All social democracies have problems, they all have homelessness and poverty, which we should work to correct. It doesn't mean they aren't social democracies.

2. Do you think the a hard Tory Brexit will improve the economy and social standards in Britain? Or do you think it will make them worse?

I think it will make things better, definitely in the medium to long term. Short term is difficult to know.

3. Are you okay with the UK entering an agreement that puts the NHS at risk, by first increasing drug prices to unmanageable levels?

No, I'm not okay with either of those things.

 

[sun_tzu]

I'm sure you're delighted that anti-semetism is back on the main news again, despite there being no actual news about it. The JLM are openly zionist and have always been anti Corbyn.

Oh, and it's not exactly redacted. Some names and organisations have been blanked out, not really the same thing.

yeah those bloody zionists making 70 existing and former labour party offocials testify against the party.... citing litterally hundreds of examples and having 100 wintenss statements from jews and non jews about antisemitism they have seen at party meetings

perhaps those sub human zionists should just stick to running that cash cow auschwitz and be grateful they are not forced bacon every day...

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[Raven]

What you mean like this shocking stuff - page after page of evidence of nailed on antisemitic racism in the labour party? Choice excerpts here. (And why is this about what I am interested in - isn't this strong evidence of racism in an avowedly anti racist party more important that what I think?)

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A number of the quotes and recollections in their seem like outright fabrications. I can't imagine a bunch of adults sitting around a party conference bullying 16 year old boy. As I've sated before, like society, Labour has an antisemitism problem, but most of what's were being told is antisemitism is anti zionism. Labour have 130 outstanding cases of antisemitism, possibly 129, since I saw a councillor got suspended earlier, in a party of half a million. The cases are being dealt with.

 

[Flying high]

What does Zionism mean now? Is it to do with the settlements?

Essentially it is the root of this whole argument. Zionists believe(rightly or wrongly) that they have a right to take 'back' their ancestral homelands, including parts of Palestine.
Corbyn, along with many others but primarily the left, have long argued that the treatment of Palestinians has been abhorrent and that the illegal occupation of their land by Isreal should stop.

So naturally, zionist groups have a strong interest in opposing Corbyn.

 

[Kaos]

What does Zionism mean now? Is it to do with the settlements?

Funny enough the JLM support Israel's illegal settlement program, in fact one of their affiliates was provided $35million by Israel to fund these settlement expansion plans

Then there's also things like this:

Isaac Herzog, while leader of the JLM’s ‘sister party’ the Israeli Labor Party (ILP) stated his apartheid view to: “separate from as many Palestinians as possible, as quickly as possible . . . We want to . . . complete the barrier that separates us.” Last year he stated that intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews is a “plague”. ILP leader Gabbay has said: “the Arabs have to be afraid of us” and “We will not share a government with the [Arab majority party] Joint List, period.”, and joined the racists in trying to legislate for 35,000 African asylum seekers to be either deported or indefinitely incarcerated.

 

[Raven]

1. The simple fact of the matter is that the Tories are cutting the social services that propped these people up when they needed it, they're moving further from social justice.

2. Can you explain why you think Brexit will be a good thing? Especially with Boris at the helm?

3. If you're not okay with either of those things, why would you vote Tory, who have confirmed that the US will be able to set prices and patents?

 

[Raven]

Funny enough the JLM support Israel's illegal settlement program, in fact one of their affiliates was provided $35million by Israel to fund these settlement expansion plans

Then there's also things like this:

Yep, the JLM really is a nasty little organisation.

 

[Flying high]

OK, how about the fact the report is based on evidence from 70 current and former Labour party officials? If you are going to try to shoot the messenger...

Look, I'm not denying that there's a problem. But I am prepared to say that, as much as I hate racism of all flavours, this has always been massively blown out of proportion by people who want a stick with which to beat Corbyn. While saying 'but the other guy is worse' is not good enough and racism must be tackled. Don't you think it's odd just how often this story keeps coming up with nothing actually anti-semitic being done by MPs or Corbyn himself, when compared with the publicity that the conservatives get for their racism?

I hope Labour have, and will continue to remove anyone with racist views from the party. We don't need them or want them. There still has to be room for criticism of Isreal, when it's deserved though, and it seems that those who support Isreal all too often get to declare where that line of acceptability sits. Their call doesn't always stand up to scrutiny, hence the sheer number of alleged incidents.

 

[Flying high]

yeah those bloody zionists making 70 existing and former labour party offocials testify against the party.... citing litterally hundreds of examples and having 100 wintenss statements from jews and non jews about antisemitism they have seen at party meetings

perhaps those sub human zionists should just stick to running that cash cow auschwitz and be grateful they are not forced bacon every day...

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That 2nd tweet is disgusting. I hope they were identified and kicked out of the party.

In no way do I think that is okay.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

One of the most damning things that I heard on the Radio this morning is that Labour have taken much harsher action on analogous abuse of other minorities.

 

[Fiskey]

1. The simple fact of the matter is that the Tories are cutting the social services that propped these people up when they needed it, they're moving further from social justice.

2. Can you explain why you think Brexit will be a good thing? Especially with Boris at the helm?

3. If you're not okay with either of those things, why would you vote Tory, who have confirmed that the US will be able to set prices and patents?

I think I will avoid answering 2, because its been done to death, and say for 3 that I have seen no evidence for this. In fact, all the comment from the leadership has been precisely the opposite.

Regarding point 1, only a sick human being would want people to live in poverty. However I don't believe that this means that there shouldn't be cuts if the impact of not cutting would be to drive more people into poverty in the long run. Social services don't work perfectly, and as with any business a period of retrenchment can be a good opportunity to trim the operational fat and make tough decisions that benefit the service in the future.

I think there are many government departments which have been subject to cuts that have managed to do this, but definitely homelessness should have been addressed quicker and that is a massive failure for this government. I also think the local government cuts went too far in the end, and money should be flowing back that way now.

 

[Fiskey]

Essentially it is the root of this whole argument. Zionists believe(rightly or wrongly) that they have a right to take 'back' their ancestral homelands, including parts of Palestine.
Corbyn, along with many others but primarily the left, have long argued that the treatment of Palestinians has been abhorrent and that the illegal occupation of their land by Isreal should stop.

So naturally, zionist groups have a strong interest in opposing Corbyn.

I think its a dangerous term. No doubt it can be used without offence, if you are opposing someone who is clearly saying they believe the above. However my experience of the left in recent times is that the term has been thrown around a lot, giving cover to anti antisemitism.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Great more debates being hijacked by the constant anti semitism questions.

Wonder if the tories will be asked about Russian links and their own islamaphobia problems.

Exactly. Divert attention away from the myriad of problems created by our current government and claims of Russian funding playing a significant role in our government. Focus on the anti semitism smear.

As other posters have stated, the anti semitism in Labour is being dealt with. Are other parties doing the same?

Ironically anti semitism was directed against Labours previous leader, Ed Milliband, by UK media to discourage people to vote for him. Hypocrites.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...t-page-antisemitic-save-our-bacon-ed-miliband

 

[sullydnl]

That report is extremely damning but what's worse is some of the reaction from Labour supporters still trying to downplay it or (worse again) outright accusing those in the report of lying.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

@nickm
You have just answered a question with a question. Not really the best way to have a discussion. Please try answering my question first. Thanks.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

As a country we should be doing better than both Johnson and Corbyn, but I believe them both to be well intentioned and doing that they think to be best.

What makes you think Johnson has good intentions? I cant think of a single thing he has said or done that points to anything other than self interest and looking after the incredibly wealthy

 

[Fiskey]

Exactly. Divert attention away from the myriad of problems created by our current government and claims of Russian funding playing a significant role in our government. Focus on the anti semitism smear.

Ironically anti semitism was directed against Labours previous leader, Ed Milliband, by UK media to discourage people to vote for him. Hypocrites.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...t-page-antisemitic-save-our-bacon-ed-miliband

Do you really think that's anti-Semitic? It's just classic Sun schtick.

 

[Fiskey]

What makes you think Johnson has good intentions? I cant think of a single thing he has said or done that points to anything other than self interest and looking after the incredibly wealthy

That can only be because you don't believe what he says. Aside from get Brexit done, in this election he has been saying we need more police, nurses, fund NHS etc. You are interpreting it as electioneering, you might be right. It could also be because that's what he think is best for the country.

 

[Raven]

I think I will avoid answering 2, because its been done to death, and say for 3 that I have seen no evidence for this. In fact, all the comment from the leadership has been precisely the opposite.

Regarding point 1, only a sick human being would want people to live in poverty. However I don't believe that this means that there shouldn't be cuts if the impact of not cutting would be to drive more people into poverty in the long run. Social services don't work perfectly, and as with any business a period of retrenchment can be a good opportunity to trim the operational fat and make tough decisions that benefit the service in the future.

I think there are many government departments which have been subject to cuts that have managed to do this, but definitely homelessness should have been addressed quicker and that is a massive failure for this government. I also think the local government cuts went too far in the end, and money should be flowing back that way now.

Dominic Raab confirmed that big pharma will be able to dictate prices. Big pharma lobbying groups have noted that Britain leaving the EU will weaken their negotiating position. Join the dots, it's not difficult.

The Tories have been about fecking the poor since they came to into being, I genuinely can't believe you think they're well intentioned.

 

[sun_tzu]

That report is extremely damning but what's worse is some of the reaction from Labour supporters still trying to downplay it or (worse again) outright accusing those in the report of lying.

Here you see some corbyn supporters told boris has said some antisemitic stuff... they pile on...and agree that anybody who said that is not fit for office... they are then told it was said by corbyn and yup downplaying it or saying it ait true

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Every day, its 'Get Brexit Done'. If people actually took an ounce of time to think, they would know this is not the case. Typical Cummings, targeting the easily led.

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can you have an ounce of time? Typical labour supporter making stuff up (yes it’s bloody sarcasm...).

 

[Raven]

That can only be because you don't believe what he says. Aside from get Brexit done, in this election he has been saying we need more police, nurses, fund NHS etc. You are interpreting it as electioneering, you might be right. It could also be because that's what he think is best for the country.

This is just utter delusion. You're suggesting people actually take Boris at his word? That is called the definition of madness.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Do you really think that's anti-Semitic? It's just classic Sun schtick.

That picture and coverage gained traction for months on various news outlets. It was then front page of The Sun on the day before the election, months after it had occurred. They saved the best till last, apparently.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nd-a-coded-form-of-anti-semitism-9885745.html

 

[Raven]

Here you see some corbyn supporters told boris has said some antisemitic stuff... they pile on...and agree that anybody who said that is not fit for office... they are then told it was said by corbyn and yup downplaying it or saying it ait true

Boring. Why doesn't he try giving a little context? Because he wants gotcha moments that can go viral, plain and simple. This sort of shit is the reason British politics has gone down the tubes.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Labour gives Remainers and Leavers 3 options;

1. Leave with the existing deal (assumption being it cannot be changed)
2. Leave with a clearly stated position
3. Remain

How anyone can suggest Labour doesn’t have a clear policy is beyond me. It’s the current position, plus a potentially more palatable exit, with a referendum.

To remind everyone : 52% of people would not have voted Leave based on the current offering.

Oh dear.

it’s not clear at all - especially when we don’t even know what the potential leader of the country and future PM actually wants? If you could tell me what Corbyn wants to do, then I would consider it a clear position.

Boris - wants to leave with agreed deal.
Swinson - will revoke a50 on day one
Corbyn - will attempt to negotiate a deal, which will take how long? Allegedly 3 months, then have a referendum which will take another 6 months, and then maybe we will have an answer? Or maybe not?

 

[Fiskey]

That picture and coverage gained traction for months on various news outlets. It was then front page of The Sun on the day before the election, months after it had occurred. They saved the best till last, apparently.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nd-a-coded-form-of-anti-semitism-9885745.html

The bacon sandwich is still talked about today. I don't think its anti-semitic because they put it on the front page before the election, they were highlighting to the readers that they didn't want a Milliband government.

 

[Fiskey]

Dominic Raab confirmed that big parka will be able to dictate prices. Big pharma lobbying groups have noted that Britain leaving the EU will weaken their negotiating position. Join the dots, it's not difficult.

The Tories have been about fecking the poor since they came to into being, I genuinely can't believe you think they're well intentioned.

Where has Raab said that?

I often find this problem when debating people on the left of politics. So many believe that virtue is on their side, and therefore everyone else is in some kind of global conspiracy to keep the poor in chains, that political parties representing right wing economic views are evil. Its such a basic narrative, is based on false assumptions, and doesn't come close to capturing a complex reality. The world is a much easier place if you can mentally divide people and parties into good and evil, and pray for the good to win like a Disney movie. Life and politics isn't like that.

 

[Buster15]

They didn't say they would have wiped the debt, they said they would wipe the deficit.

And that they have not.

 

[EwanI Ted]

Oh dear.

it’s not clear at all - especially when we don’t even know what the potential leader of the country and future PM actually wants? If you could tell me what Corbyn wants to do, then I would consider it a clear position.

Boris - wants to leave with agreed deal.
Swinson - will revoke a50 on day one
Corbyn - will attempt to negotiate a deal, which will take how long? Allegedly 3 months, then have a referendum which will take another 6 months, and then maybe we will have an answer? Or maybe not?

One thing I'm certainly not clear on - what happens if Labour dont get a deal from the EU that meets their requirements?