Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Son]

I’ve changed my vote to keep.

I’ve gotta admit he has all the players we want to build the side around playing good football when we counter-attack in big games.

His task now is building a side in January that can play on the front foot. This is what we need to see before the end of the season. It’s no easy task but with a bit more strength in depth in CM and a couple more creative players in CAM / RW it is completely possible.

I still think we need 4 world class players though should Pogba not be bothered. Haaland, Sancho, Madison, Saul Niguez would make us a top top side with many quality options I’d imagine. Possibly a new LB and we’d be Champions League trophy contenders squad wise.

 

[tenpoless]

2 years from now, when Klopp is pulling his hair out and spitting in anger, unable to understand why teams set up so defensive against him, whilst the blue side of Manchester finally get their wish as the Pep Guardiola is my idol is finally sacked after being 10th in the table after scrapping top 4 the season before.
Meanwhile, a humble, smiling, baby faced tactician sits proudly at the helm of the Theatre of Dreams, charging a young and exicting United team to there first league title in almost 10 years after humbly collecting Uniteds second Europa trophy and maintaining a second successive season of champions league knockout football.

Then, we can look back at this thread fondly and all agree, United are special in DNA. Finally finding the right man with the right philosophy and applying a technique that seemed to be forbidden within the football community in present day..... Patience.

I'm deadish.

 

[Escobar]

Emotional? Ole has produced the most exciting football since SAF. Moyes was dire, LvG was dire, Jose was good at the peaks, but once he started losing, he shut up shop and took no chances. It’s emotional to be swayed by the week to week results.

You have a very limited memory then. We had 2 good games but in most we looked as poor as it can get with hardly any chances created, lost and clueless

 

[Foxbatt]

It's only against two teams who are attack minded. Everyone knew what United was going to do and Pep in his arrogance decided it was not worth looking at the way United play and played with all the space behind.
As B8 has said for him to be able to say there is progress he needs to beat teams that doesn't leave space behind.
In the past it has been that he doesn't have the players to play an attacking game. Now it's that he doesn't have the players to break down teams.
So far he has done nothing for me to see that he is the man to take us to the PL or CL.
For that matter I don't think Poch is the man either. I would be most pleased if Ole would prove me wrong.

 

[SteveW]

You have a very limited memory then. We had 2 good games but in most we looked as poor as it can get with hardly any chances created, lost and clueless

We're on about a 6 week stretch of scoring 2-3 goals a game. We'd likely had won them all if McTominay hadn't missed the two drawn games where they walked through our midfield. We've won 6 out of the last 7 where Scott and Fred have played. Hardly lost and clueless.

 

[roonster09]

It's only against two teams who are attack minded. Everyone knew what United was going to do and Pep in his arrogance decided it was not worth looking at the way United play and played with all the space behind.
As B8 has said for him to be able to say there is progress he needs to beat teams that doesn't leave space behind.
In the past it has been that he doesn't have the players to play an attacking game. Now it's that he doesn't have the players to break down teams.
So far he has done nothing for me to see that he is the man to take us to the PL or CL.
For that matter I don't think Poch is the man either. I would be most pleased if Ole would prove me wrong.

What a way to play down the performance. It was only against City away.

 

[waza7111]

If we finish top four keep if we don't sack. Easiest way to assess the success of his managerial tenure.

It's not as simple as that for me. I'm still Ole Out but if he can adapt his tactics to win against mid/lower table teams consistently then I will change my vote even if we miss out on top 4 by a few points.

 

[midnightmare]

He needs to learn a different tactic than just counter. Build a defense and kick the ball forward to superquick front players isnt rocket science.

Don't think it's as simple as that, or every team would simply buy rapid players and defenders alone. The issue for us runs a bit deeper and results do bear it out. Against bigger teams, we're able to cover our biggest flaw - which is the absence of a really good, creative CAM / #10. In smaller games, this leads to us having a lot of the ball - but nobody who can pick the lock of a parked defence. Our forwards don't have space - and don't have someone behind to pick a sly run that earns them a yard. So even if the movement is good, we can't get the ball into the right areas to shoot. This makes us look toothless and incapable of scoring.

Against bigger teams, there's more space to run into (because they push forward) and that pass becomes easier to pick. This is where a guy like Lingard poses the issue. At his best, he offers pressing and running - and this works a treat in the big games. But he's not the most creative when he actually has the ball. His biggest skill is "off-the-ball movement". Hardly what you need in the CAM / #10 for smaller games.

No amount of "tactical adjustment" can account for this flaw. Then you look at the bench / squad and realize that with Pogba injured, Lingard really is the best option. Andreas is worthless, Mata too slow and behind those, all we have are Levitt, Garner and Mason. None is a #10. Gomes is lightweight and has not looked "ready for this level" in his albeit limited auditions - but more than anything, I think it's safe to say that Ole knows how to handle the youth. So we can probably say quite safely that none of them is ready yet to be playing that position for the first team.

The return of Pogba (the one player we have who can provide that creative spark) will be critical. If Ole can get him to play the 10 / CAM role effectively ahead of Fred and McT, we should see an immediate uptick in the games against smaller teams. If Ole is still unable to get anything, we should look at what is wrong tactically / in terms of setup / coaching.

We can of course focus on why he's gone 3 at the back in some games or his making subs very late on...

 

[b82REZ]

We're on about a 6 week stretch of scoring 2-3 goals a game. We'd likely had won them all if McTominay hadn't missed the two drawn games where they walked through our midfield. We've won 6 out of the last 7 where Scott and Fred have played. Hardly lost and clueless.

You do know we're considering the last 12 months, not the small sample size you are referring to. Over the other 32 games we have looked lost and clueless for large parts. That shouldn't be the case 12 months into the "plan".

 

[Zen86]

What a way to play down the performance. It was only against City away.

These people will forever throw their toys out of the pram until they get what they want, and then they’ll probably keep doing so anyway.

Its only Norwich, it’s only Tottenham, it’s only City. It’ll be ‘only’ Everton soon. And it’s only counterattacking football. Thus said the idiots with a CV in Twitter highlights.

 

[roonster09]

These people will forever throw their toys out of the pram until they get what they want, and then they’ll probably keep doing so anyway.

Its only Norwich, it’s only Tottenham, it’s only City. It’ll be ‘only’ Everton soon. And it’s only counterattacking football. This said the idiots with a CV in Twitter highlights.

Yeah, when we smashed it was "yeah it's only against league's worst team". When we won against City, it is changed to "yeah its only against strong teams that attack a lot".

fecking hell, everyone knows we need to be consistent but that doesn't mean they should just play down every win.

 

[Champ]

Napoli have sacked Ancelotti... I know their 7th in the league but he just got them through to the CL ko stages. Anyone who follows serie A have any idea what was going on there?

Update. Not won league game in 9 matches. Also probably reason for vindictive nature of sacking is due to dispute between him and players versus the owner.

Ancelotti fell out with the owners/board.
The players have also fallen out with the owner,

 

[b82REZ]

Yeah, when we smashed it was "yeah it's only against league's worst team". When we won against City, it is changed to "yeah its only against strong teams that attack a lot".

fecking hell, everyone knows we need to be consistent but that doesn't mean they should just play down every win.

Who has played down any of the victories? When have we smashed the league's worst team?

 

[roonster09]

Who has played down any of the victories? When have we smashed the league's worst team?

Norwich.

For the other part, post I quoted.

 

[b82REZ]

Norwich.

For the other part, post I quoted.

I've not seen a single poster play down any of the last two victories, and the post you're referring to doesn't either. Don't pretend that people are playing down the last two results to suit your agenda. Every post I've seen recognise that we've performed very well in the last two games, and it's not unusual to point out that we haven't performed to that standard for the most of the Solksjaer tenure and question why. It is is much easier to motivate for the big games so we need to see him impose this style when we're playing the rest of the league.

 

[Zen86]

I've not seen a single poster play down any of the last two victories, and the post you're referring to doesn't either. Don't pretend that people are playing down the last two results to suit your agenda. Every post I've seen recognise that we've performed very well in the last two games, and it's not unusual to point out that we haven't performed to that standard for the most of the Solksjaer tenure and question why. It is is much easier to motivate for the big games so we need to see him impose this style when we're playing the rest of the league.

Really? You’ve clearly not been looking very hard.

 

[roonster09]

I've not seen a single poster play down any of the last two victories, and the post you're referring to doesn't either. Don't pretend that people are playing down the last two results to suit your agenda. Every post I've seen recognise that we've performed very well in the last two games, and it's not unusual to point out that we haven't performed to that standard for the most of the Solksjaer tenure and question why. It is is much easier to motivate for the big games so we need to see him impose this style when we're playing the rest of the league.

So you asked for the post, I pointed the post and now you are saying every post you have seen recognise that we have played very well, when the post I quoted starts with "it's only attacking teams' as if we have defeated Spurs of past who were naive, we won against the team that won 198 points in 2 league season with fantastic record. Its not a "just a team that attacks".

What agenda again? Giving credit for performance when we play well and criticizing the performance when we play bad is not agenda, it's common sense.

 

[Strelok]

Ancelotti fell out with the owners/board.
The players have also fallen out with the owner,

A bit more details:

Napoli lost a few games in a round. Owner got crazy and asked the players to live at the camp from now on. The players refused and got fined (big fine).

Ancelotti decided to side with the players (good decision imo), then he got sacked.

That's what I heard.

 

[MackRobinson]

This has become more about being right to you then what’s best for the club right?

Of course every Ole out poster is happy we won- We all want us to do well.
And there’s no narrative to spin as we’re still 5 points off 4th having failed to beaten Sheffield United, Bournemouth & West Ham.

Winning 2 games doesn’t mean he’s the best man for the job

Quite the opposite. I'm saying that's the case for others.

He may fail, but the "not a Championship manager"/"puppet for the Glazers"./"worst manager in the league" comments were completely over the top, and now most of the culprits are silent or doubling down.

 

[b82REZ]

Really? You’ve clearly not been looking very hard.

By all means provide some quotes because havent seen anyone play the results down. The issue people have is that we do perform well in the big games and not the others.

 

[SteveW]

You do know we're considering the last 12 months, not the small sample size you are referring to. Over the other 32 games we have looked lost and clueless for large parts. That shouldn't be the case 12 months into the "plan".

That doesn't allow for improvement though. Surely the idea is to improve over time. That's why we have coaches isn't it?

 

[b82REZ]

That doesn't allow for improvement though. Surely the idea is to improve over time. That's why we have coaches isn't it?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Are you purposely being obtuse? We should have seen much more improvement than we have, simple. These two games are encouraging but we need to be sure they're not a false dawn before collectively wanking each other off claiming the plan is finally coming together.

 

[SteveW]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Are you purposely being obtuse? We should have seen much more improvement than we have, simple. These two games are encouraging but we need to be sure they're not a false dawn before collectively wanking each other off claiming the plan is finally coming together.

We've been scoring loads since the end of October

 

[b82REZ]

We've been scoring loads since the end of October

And conceding just as many

 

[SteveW]

And conceding just as many

In the 2 games Scotty missed. Otherwise no.

 

[b82REZ]

In the 2 games Scotty missed. Otherwise no.

Except we've conceded goals all season, with McT or Pogba in midfield or not it doesn't matter. We concede in practically every game.

 

[Greck]

I disagree. There are only 3 games in the league where we failed to score (West Ham, Newcastle and Bournemouth). Those were shite games no doubt, but even then we created some big chances that we should have put away. The main problem has been that when we go 1 goal up (which we have) we fail to capitalize on it and instead of going two up we end up drawing instead.

With Pogba being our for so long, we also lack a threat from central areas as no of our other midfielder or #10's have that ability. So we are constantly looking to create from out wide which means the opponent can just flood their box and defend with two people out wide. Villa and Sheffield for example did in no shape or form sit back and park the bus, but having Scott out hurt us badly since Pereira and Fred did not work out in CM

Tactics play a part yes, but i would say lack of tactical options (players with different skills) and mentality plays a bigger part. We seem to struggle to stay focused for the entire match and that has cost us a lot of points this season

Not going to pretend lack of tactical options didn't play a part although the Pogba+Mctominay midfield wasn't exactly getting applauded when they were fit. Willing to wait and see what happens when they return

 

[Champ]

A bit more details:

Napoli lost a few games in a round. Owner got crazy and asked the players to live at the camp from now on. The players refused and got fined (big fine).

Ancelotti decided to side with the players (good decision imo), then he got sacked.

That's what I heard.

Yup, that's the crux of the situation.
The owner is a nutter!!

 

[Bilbo]

Except we've conceded goals all season, with McT or Pogba in midfield or not it doesn't matter. We concede in practically every game.

19 conceded in 16 matches isn't half bad when you consider how the rest of the league is looking. Only the top 3 have a respectable goal difference and they are all banging in goals for fun.

Lack of clean sheets is an issue - its pretty clear that our biggest problem is maintaining winning positions - which for me is as much down to inexperience as anything else. We'd be up with City if we were better at forcing an advantage, but I think with the confidence being low and wins hard to come by its somewhat understandable that the players would retreat and try to protect a lead when they have it. Its something we have to improve upon.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

I'm not going to change my vote over 2 great wins even if they were against arguably 2 of the best managers in modern times. I'm seeing comparisons with our 2008 team which for me is a complete knee jerk reaction. A manager should be judged over a period of time and that period of time should be more than a week. We can't forget that before those 2 games Oles head was definitely in a noose. Optimism is all well and good but a bit realism should be thrown in there as well.

I have to say I can see us slowly turning the corner. From now until the 4th of January we have 6 league games all of which are winnable. If we get 4 wins a draw and a loss then for me Ole deserves another window and to finish the season. I still don't think he's good enough in the long run but as a transitional manager he may be what the club needs at this moment in time. Unfortunately his future may depend on Ed splashing the cash in January which if I were Ole it would make me slightly nervous.

 

[Strelok]

Yup, that's the crux of the situation.
The owner is a nutter!!

Yup, Italian owners are pretty nut, in case you haven't heard of Massimo Cellino or Maurizio Zamparini. Especially the later who made a record of 12 coaches sacked over two years. Sometime he sacked a coach, hired a new one then sacked that new one and hired back the previous, and the circle went on ...

 

[Uniteddy]

Whatever you think of Ole, we are fifth and only five points off fourth, and this is amazing with the squad we've had to work with this season and injuries etc. The defence is massively improved, and players like Mctominay and Fred are coming good. James has done well, and Rashford is on fire. Add Pogba and we could be in the top 4 by new years day.

Whatever you think about Ole, we are fifth and only 5 points off 12th!
This is amazing with the squad we have, highest wage bill in England and massive amounts of money spent. If we add the most expensive midfielder in the world we will challenge for top four!

 

[Falcow]

I'm not going to change my vote over 2 great wins even if they were against arguably 2 of the best managers in modern times. I'm seeing comparisons with our 2008 team which for me is a complete knee jerk reaction. A manager should be judged over a period of time and that period of time should be more than a week. We can't forget that before those 2 games Oles head was definitely in a noose. Optimism is all well and good but a bit realism should be thrown in there as well.

I have to say I can see us slowly turning the corner. From now until the 4th of January we have 6 league games all of which are winnable. If we get 4 wins a draw and a loss then for me Ole deserves another window and to finish the season. I still don't think he's good enough in the long run but as a transitional manager he may be what the club needs at this moment in time. Unfortunately his future may depend on Ed splashing the cash in January which if I were Ole it would make me slightly nervous.

I agree with you here but a big part of the reason that ole's head was in that noose was also based on just two games i.e. Sheffield United and villa draws. Had we won those two, his head would not have been in a noose leading into the spurs game so it works both ways.

You can argue that it was more that just those two games but we have been pretty good since the liverpool game a couple of months back and I think it's only 1 loss in 8 league games since, had we won those two games against Sheffield and villa(I think we would if it wasnt for injuries) we would now have 6 wins in last 8? Including being unbeaten against pool, spurs and city. All without our supposed best player. That for me is progress. But obviously the next few games are as crucial as the last.

We have seen plenty of players improve greatly since the start of the season, which is why I'm not too upset over the first couple of months of the season....I see a definite trend of improvement. Long may it continue.

 

[VeevaVee]

Right now, I'd look at keeping Ole til the end of the season, but be looking to sign someone up in the meantime for next.
If Ole does well from now on, consider it a successful stepping stone. We absolutely do not want to be in a position where Ole does quite well, we miss out on our opportunity to hire someone else, and then next season it falls apart.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Right now, I'd look at keeping Ole til the end of the season, but be looking to sign someone up in the meantime for next.
If Ole does well from now on, consider it a successful stepping stone. We absolutely do not want to be in a position where Ole does quite well, we miss out on our opportunity to hire someone else, and then next season it falls apart.

Pretty much how I feel now too. Absolutely no point getting rid of him now, but if Poch or Nagelsmann are available in the summer then we are fools if we don't get them instead.

If however he does manage top four and a good Europa win then we simply have to keep him really as he'll have done more than enough to justify another window and another year.

 

[lysglimt]

Whatever you think about Ole, we are fifth and only 5 points off 12th!
This is amazing with the squad we have, highest wage bill in England and massive amounts of money spent. If we add the most expensive midfielder in the world we will challenge for top four!

If you count our current players - we probably don't have the highest wage bill in the country - but we are probably still paying a lot of wages on players we have offloaded. That is hardly relevant as to our current situation.

We probably pay Close to £1 million in wages each week on players who practically haven't played for us all season - like TFM, Bailly, Pogba (injured), Sanchez, Smalling,

 

[Judas]

Right now, I'd look at keeping Ole til the end of the season, but be looking to sign someone up in the meantime for next.
If Ole does well from now on, consider it a successful stepping stone. We absolutely do not want to be in a position where Ole does quite well, we miss out on our opportunity to hire someone else, and then next season it falls apart.

For me this how we should be approaching it. I have the exact same concerns though. I just can't but have no confidence in the board.

 

[Strelok]

This is amazing with the squad we have, highest wage bill in England and massive amounts of money spent.

And this is Ole's fault ?

He's the one who is trying to fix this tbf.

@Uniteddy @b82REZ I run out of quota, will reply you tomorrow.

 

[manc4red]

Got to keep ole. Team needs to back him over the next couple transfer windows as well. Give him a true chance to do what he wants to do

 

[Uniteddy]

And this is Ole's fault ?

He's the one who is trying to fix this tbf.

Partially his fault.

New contracts for Rashford and Martial on par with highest earning forwards in the league, players who have led teams to title wins and challenges. Before they demonstrated they are at that level.

A massive new contract for De Gea. An excellent shot stopper who has shown his limitations. He does not command his area on crosses, shown once again at the weekend. He does not cover the space behind a high line as well as other goalkeepers.

It was Ole's fault that he continued with De Gea when he was in horrendous form during the run. It was undeniably a major factor in us losing out on champions league.

My actual point was facetious.
Crediting Ole for being "only" 5 points off 4th, just shows how successful the club have been in lowering expectations.