UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[sammsky1]

Baddiel has just hit the nail on the head.

The Corbynistas need to stop telling everyone with a different opinion to "feck off and join the Tories".

its been said many times in this thread over past week too!

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

Nuneaton goes to Conservatives

 

[Redlambs]

So the point i was getting at in a roundabout way is that moderates and the left divide themselves while the right stick together when push comes to shove, its a huge problem politically that parallels in the united states with regards to republicans vs democrats.

Id love to see data on lib dems and greens on who they would prefer between labour or the tory's. my bet would be they have more in common with the left than the right and in that regard their votes do nothing but hand constituances to the tories.
the attempt at tactical voting gave 1 seat to the lib dems and surrendered dozens to the conservatives by slim margins.

Why is it assumed everyone who voted tory are suddenly all hard right and on the same page?

All this centrist being dead nonsense is more evidence people need to step outside their bubbles and see the real world. It's like when you earlier said Corbyn was a factor. I feel you greatly downplay that point there, in favour of trying to convince yourself this was just about Brexit.

 

[Virgil]

Agree with all of this. He is a maverick rebel and new ideas guy. Such people are very important in leadership teams but as a senior member and not as the leader. Because by definition, some of their many ideas will be highly polarising, and they are not in an objective position to see that themselves.

As for your 2nd point, Labours leadership selection process is deeply flawed. Over the years it has produced the likes of Foot, Kinnock, Miliband Junior and Corbyn, each of which were unelectable from their first day in charge. And yet despite serious opposition from the PLP, all survived and were thrashed in elections.

Labour is way too ideological. Instead of creating a manifesto which is in sync with the context of the country, a plan that a majority of people want, they get stuck in their intellectual narcissism. Many Corbyn fans in this thread have displayed such, no matter that I've grown quite fond of their opinions. We are seeing it even now on Twitter with Momentum saying they will carry on unperturbed.

Unlike the Tories. Lets remember the Cameron government was massively pro Remain as the official party policy. And yet a few years later, they walk into a huge majority by being massively pro Leave. They deliver what majority of people want. Perhaps you will win the ethical debate within your own echo chamber, but the fact remains Labour is impotent and irrelevant, while the Conservatives can now implement as they see fit.

Evidenced by the defeats to Foot, Kinnock and Corbyn, I don't think the UK wants or needs a purely left brand of politics. Labour is now exactly where it was pre Blair. And its requires a reincarnation of this avatar if they are to win again.

what a superb post. I wish I had made it.

 

[Pexbo]

Channel 4 is genuinely horribly brilliant. Jimmy Carr has joined in now.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Now we are married, I assume we will have to argue even more, but without the sex...

Ultimately we all have to work with and have neighbours who think differently and vote differently to ourselves. Goodness knows when, but hopefully we can become a lot more civil to each other! Until then...

Ye fecken lazy basturd ye left the dug ootside aw night and now he's freezin.

Nah, it's all in good faith mate. Politics and me never really mix well so if anything it shows that until the world resets we'll keep going in circles. Like you said hopefully there will be a time when ideologies can level out a bit and everyone can get a little of what they need.

 

[sammsky1]

I was put in hold for 4mins for a 999 call when my son passed out after coughing up a load of blood a couple of months back. We waited in hospital for 2 days, the first 6 just for a bed, and even then the discharge took 5 hours due to lack of staff. I don't live in a poor area either.
The staff were great, but that was a disgrace. Let's not confuse the great people who work in the NHS going above and beyond with it being well funded and everyone happy.
I could go on as I have 12 family and friends who work in all aspects of the NHS, it's not a disaster as made out, but it's not good at all either.

Hope your son is much better.

It is when compared with the 220 or so other countries in the world. Its amazing, amongst the very best in that context.

And the public seems to disagree with you. Why is that?

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[Kentonio]

Nuneaton goes to Conservatives

Stays conservative.

 

[711]

One thing I do like about election night is hearing the accents of people as the focus switches from one constituency to another. I like the diversity of British accents.

 

[Redlambs]

its been said many times in this thread over past week too!

I'm aware of that. I haven't seen it said on live tv too.


Not sure why that's so funny, but hey I expect we've all had a few

 

[Grinner]

Labour has been taken over by self-righteous pricks who think they know better than everyone else. It's not a very attractive proposition and part of the reason they are getting destroyed.

You must love Mogg, Gove, Patel, Raab and Johnson

 

[Camy89]

As someone who works in the NHS, if you voted Tory today and you end up getting inadequate service from the NHS, take a second to think about why that happened.

Time and time again the NHS is used as a political pawn. Billions of pounds promised everytime, yet it never changes. People don't realise it's not all about how much money you put into it, it's about how you treat the workers. I think someone once said 'Treat your employees well and they'll treat the organisation well'.

feck you Boris/Tories.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

Stays conservative.

Thanks for the correction

 

[hobbers]

Shock that hobbers wasn’t moved by the speech of a minority explaining their fears.

At least he’s not embarrassing himself for his comedy for once.

If only corbyn was moved by all those hundreds of jews with personal accounts of actually being threatened with violence from within his party.

 

[Lebowski]

The politically disenfranchised, the casual voter, New Labour voters who have had their heads turned by Tory rhetoric. Political apathy is rife in this country. We're a very small proportion of voters in comparison to the rest of the UK; we're educated on politics, we read about it everyday (my statement goes for anyone regardless of where they lie on the spectrum). Everyone else just sees the headlines and do other things in their spare time.

Right now the headlines are pro-Tory because the media machine will always attack the left. Because it goes against it's own self interests and preservation. You have two choices; play their game and nominate someone who is less extreme, or nominate someone who is less extreme who won't put off those casual viewers.

Momentum are too aggressive. It's either their way or feck you. I've been called a Tory by that brigade for fecks sake and I had interest in politics when they were still in primary school. They're deluded. The New Labour crew are as well. But until everyone stops trying to measure their political willies the party is going to be fecked.

I totally disagree.

If the centre was the answer, the Lib Dem centrist campaign would have yielded something more than a terrible election and a single seat gain.

The era of centrism is over and virtually every election around Europe and the Americas since 2015 show the new populist norm. You can hope that once Brexit is done things will return to the old way, but the global nature of populism suggests this isn't the case.

The same centrist Labour MPs who have wanted Corbyn gone since he was elected will line up to say this result is proof that we've moved too far left. However, the same leader and policies were successful in 2017 and clearly the main difference between the two elections is Brexit. If the exit polls are correct, then Labour will win new seats in big cities but lose swathes in leave seats. That's Brexit, and nothing to do with socialism vs centrism. There's no evidence that a move to the centre would result in electoral success and I really think we need to resist that urge.

I hugely agree that political apathy is a huge issue, and the Tories simple message combined with poisoning the well ('all politicians are the same') makes reaching hopeless people (especially older ex-labour voters) very difficult.

Labour's economic and social policies are much more popular than the Tory equivalent. The answer isn't softening the message, it's establishing proper roots in these forgotten about communities and showing them that change through electoral politics is possible.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

John Curtice: The swing to the Conservatives to Labour isn't as great in some seats as expected. Whilst it shouldn't affect the result, the majority may not be quite as high as expected, though still sizeable.

 

[Pexbo]

At least he’s not embarrassing himself for his comedy for once.

If only corbyn was moved by all those hundreds of jews with personal accounts of actually being threatened with violence from within his party.

Agreed

 

[LARulz]

Channel 4

 

[sullydnl]

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[Redlambs]

It is when compared with the 220 or so other countries in the world. Its amazing, amongst the very best in that context.

And the public seems to disagree with you. Why is that?

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Why is it relevant what the other countries are like? Are you implying it's ok for it to slide, simply because we are lucky to have it at all?

And I don't believe those people do all disagree either, people all over the country see the NHS needs more. It is bizarre then that so many voted Tory, however there's way more in play than just the NHS.

 

[Pexbo]

Channel 4

To give people an idea of just how mad it is, Jimmy Carr has joined the discussion and brought it all back around to discussing policies rather than Tabasco Tampons, Marginal Sexual Positions and grandfathers getting stoned for being friends with Armenians.

 

[Pink Moon]

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Is that Richard Osman?

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

Why is it assumed everyone who voted tory are suddenly all hard right and on the same page?

All this centrist being dead nonsense is more evidence people need to step outside their bubbles and see the real world. It's like when you earlier said Corbyn was a factor. I feel you greatly downplay that point there, in favour of trying to convince yourself this was just about Brexit.

I'm sure corbyn was a factor, i personally feel it was unwarranted but i can understand how it happened. Your first point is exactly what i was saying however, not in the grand scheme of this election as it was a very difficult mountain for labour to climb, but there is a political precedent that is seen all over the world, particularly highlighted in the states and here at home that the political right are far more inclined to stick together as opposed to the left and moderates. Case and point the brexit party standing aside for the tory's, and remainer tory's staying loyal on an individual basis.

The lady on the bbc basically just reiterated my point just then if you were watching the coverage.

 

[balaks]

You must love Mogg, Gove, Patel, Raab and Johnson

Not at all they are all utter bastards but it used to be that I could look to Labour and not see those sort of self-righteous pricks. Now it appears Labour (momentum really) supporters have become militant, arrogant and completely out of touch in the same way I always thought of Tories being.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

Is that Richard Osman?

No, a woman

 

[Redlambs]

I totally disagree.

If the centre was the answer, the Lib Dem centrist campaign would have yielded something more than a terrible election and a single seat gain.

The era of centrism is over and virtually every election around Europe and the Americas since 2015 show the new populist norm. You can hope that once Brexit is done things will return to the old way, but the global nature of populism suggests this isn't the case.

The same centrist Labour MPs who have wanted Corbyn gone since he was elected will line up to say this result is proof that we've moved too far left. However, the same leader and policies were successful in 2017 and clearly the main difference between the two elections is Brexit. If the exit polls are correct, then Labour will win new seats in big cities but lose swathes in leave seats. That's Brexit, and nothing to do with socialism vs centrism. There's no evidence that a move to the centre would result in electoral success and I really think we need to resist that urge.

I hugely agree that political apathy is a huge issue, and the Tories simple message combined with poisoning the well ('all politicians are the same') makes reaching hopeless people (especially older ex-labour voters) very difficult.

Labour's economic and social policies are much more popular than the Tory equivalent. The answer isn't softening the message, it's establishing proper roots in these forgotten about communities and showing them that change through electoral politics is possible.

They still lost the last election. And the one before that.

At what point does it change? You can't honestly believe this was all down to brexit, that seems like the obvious go to excuse.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

I totally disagree.

If the centre was the answer, the Lib Dem centrist campaign would have yielded something more than a terrible election and a single seat gain.

The era of centrism is over and virtually every election around Europe and the Americas since 2015 show the new populist norm. You can hope that once Brexit is done things will return to the old way, but the global nature of populism suggests this isn't the case.

The same centrist Labour MPs who have wanted Corbyn gone since he was elected will line up to say this result is proof that we've moved too far left. However, the same leader and policies were successful in 2017 and clearly the main difference between the two elections is Brexit. If the exit polls are correct, then Labour will win new seats in big cities but lose swathes in leave seats. That's Brexit, and nothing to do with socialism vs centrism. There's no evidence that a move to the centre would result in electoral success and I really think we need to resist that urge.

I hugely agree that political apathy is a huge issue, and the Tories simple message combined with poisoning the well ('all politicians are the same') makes reaching hopeless people (especially older ex-labour voters) very difficult.

Labour's economic and social policies are much more popular than the Tory equivalent. The answer isn't softening the message, it's establishing proper roots in these forgotten about communities and showing them that change through electoral politics is possible.

Completely agree with this.

 

[Redlambs]

Not at all they are all utter bastards but it used to be that I could look to Labour and not see that sort of self-righteous pricks. Now it appears Labour (momentum really) supporters have become militant, arrogant and completely out of touch in the same way I always thought of Tories being.

I agree. For example, people who keep saying we shouldn't drop to their level seem to be doing a great job of dropping to their level when it comes to ranting and abuse.

It's quite maddening this is being lost on people.

 

[Lebowski]

zealots with their head in the sand.

Are the zealots you're referring to the centrists who want the political climate to return to pre-2008 or the people who say that some form of populism / class war is the only way?

Not asking tongue in cheek by the way, I genuinely don't know which side you're taking.

 

[sammsky1]

I totally disagree.

If the centre was the answer, the Lib Dem centrist campaign would have yielded something more than a terrible election and a single seat gain.

The era of centrism is over and virtually every election around Europe and the Americas since 2015 show the new populist norm. You can hope that once Brexit is done things will return to the old way, but the global nature of populism suggests this isn't the case.

The same centrist Labour MPs who have wanted Corbyn gone since he was elected will line up to say this result is proof that we've moved too far left. However, the same leader and policies were successful in 2017 and clearly the main difference between the two elections is Brexit. If the exit polls are correct, then Labour will win new seats in big cities but lose swathes in leave seats. That's Brexit, and nothing to do with socialism vs centrism. There's no evidence that a move to the centre would result in electoral success and I really think we need to resist that urge.

I hugely agree that political apathy is a huge issue, and the Tories simple message combined with poisoning the well ('all politicians are the same') makes reaching hopeless people (especially older ex-labour voters) very difficult.

Labour's economic and social policies are much more popular than the Tory equivalent. The answer isn't softening the message, it's establishing proper roots in these forgotten about communities and showing them that change through electoral politics is possible.

How can you write such a pile of rubbish when your entire thesis is being thrashed in front of you on live TV?

You remind me of Saeed al-Sahhaf, better known as Bagdad Bob or Comical Ali.

Its utter delusion!

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

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[Redlambs]

I'm sure corbyn was a factor, i personally feel it was unwarranted but i can understand how it happened. Your first point is exactly what i was saying however, not in the grand scheme of this election as it was a very difficult mountain for labour to climb, but there is a political precedent that is seen all over the world, particularly highlighted in the states and here at home that the political right are far more inclined to stick together as opposed to the left and moderates. Case and point the brexit party standing aside for the tory's, and remainer tory's staying loyal on an individual basis.

The lady on the bbc basically just reiterated my point just then if you were watching the coverage.

And one on Sky earlier was saying results prove it wasn't about brexit.

Neither of us know for sure at this moment, but what we do know is brexit or no Labour keep losing. And this time they've been humiliated.

I just don't understand the clamour to blame brexit then keep things the same. We are going to be stuck with the Tories for a long while now, no chance Labour are coming back from this anytime soon whilst there's no actual change.

 

[sammsky1]

Are the zealots you're referring to the centrists who want the political climate to return to pre-2008 or the people who say that some form of populism / class war is the only way?

Not asking tongue in cheek by the way, I genuinely don't know which side you're taking.

This

 

[Redlambs]

You remind me of Saeed al-Sahhaf, better known as Bagdad Bob or Comical Ali.

How can you write such a pile of rubbish when your entire thesis is being thrashed in front of you on live TV?

Its utter delusion!

Momentum are clearly a delusional bunch. Their twitter is amazing tonight.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

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[robinamicrowave]

This was a second referendum in all but name. The Labour vote has swung to the Brexit Party. The country wants to leave.

 

[ManchesterYoda]

As someone who works in the NHS, if you voted Tory today and you end up getting inadequate service from the NHS, take a second to think about why that happened.

Time and time again the NHS is used as a political pawn. Billions of pounds promised everytime, yet it never changes. People don't realise it's not all about how much money you put into it, it's about how you treat the workers. I think someone once said 'Treat your employees well and they'll treat the organisation well'.

feck you Boris/Tories.

The problems I have had with NHS have nothing to do with whether it's a Labour government or a Conservative government.

 

[JinnerJamie]

Tories gain Workington

 

[Kentonio]

Workington gone Tory. Jesus..

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

Workington- Conservatives gain
FYLDE- Con Hold