Man Utd set to appoint Director of Football (when hell freezes over)

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Adnan

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Absolutely. Problem is, who do we have to can identify that person and his quality?
Marcel Bout, Bryan Robson, Denis Irwin are just afew that could have a significant input. Bout in particular would be key IMO.
 

Suedesi

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Clubs tend to have produce players with football brain. Milan for example produced the likes of Cesare Maldini, Ancelotti and Rijkaard. Juventus produced the likes of Zidane, Conte and Deschamps. We produced erm Brucey? Charlton? Mr Cardiff? Gary Neville of Valencia? So we are forced to look at the outside.

Regarding Cruyff he's been involved with Valletta, AEK Larnaca, the great Maccabi Tel Avviv and something in China. Do you think that these are the sort of contacts United need to bring in players of our level?
Given you're Maltese, what's your in-depth analysis of Jordi's work there? I agree his pedigree doesn't strike me as MU quality, but maybe there's some nuance we're missing as outsiders?
 

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Really? Cause I can't see anything that remotely suggest that. United had been taken for a ride by agents for the past 7 years. If its true that Ole has more salary then Klopp (previous contract) then we can say that even our former players are taking us for a ride as well cause there's no way that a manager who had failed at any level that is not amateur level should be paid as much. We've got one of the highest salary bills in Europe and a mid table level squad to show for it.

As said, most clubs have a history of raising into position people of their own. That's because they have a solid structure which allows them to do so. A former player is introduced to an experienced set up were he's shown the ropes up until he doesn't need help anymore and in turn he becomes the 'veteran'. Therefore the cycle goes on and on until, somehow along the line it breaks and it needs to be built again. For example when Juventus had to do a clean up because of Calciopoli, their only option was to go for outside talent. That outside talent translated into the very experienced Marotta whose got a CV as long as my arm. Marotta brought in Paratici from Sampdoria. Then once the structure was built, people 'closer' to home were brought in like for example Conte.

United need to build a solid structure lead by experienced people on top of their game. Then once that is in place then sure we can start adding people of our own and hope that they would learn and one they become protagonists in our rebuilt. Unfortunately what we seem to have are a bunch of people who are learning on the job (Woodward, Ole, Carrick, Mckenna and possibly Cruyff) with the assistance of the occasional dinosaur (Phelan)
feck, even Juve went through the Alberto Zaccheroni and Ciro Ferrara phase... I reckon Woodward is Giovanni Cobolli Gigli and Alessio Secco rolled into one...
 

devilish

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Given you're Maltese, what's your in-depth analysis of Jordi's work there? I agree his pedigree doesn't strike me as MU quality, but maybe there's some nuance we're missing as outsiders?
Well, I am not versed with local football as I used to. Its pathetic (women football is decent though). However I'd ask around and get back to you.
 

devilish

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United being taken for a ride by agents in the last 7 years is one of the reasons we have this thread. And Ole getting paid more than Klopp has been debunked by a number of posters on here. United also had solid foundations in that regard dating back to Walter Crickmer and Jimmy Murphy who laid the foundations for Sir Matt and the reason Man Utd became the juggernaut it did. When Sir Alex makes a reference to how Bayern are run, it's a point worth considering imo.

Do clubs who have a history of having a structure, have that structure due to people affiliated to the club? I would say there's strong evidence of that at several historically big clubs which dates back several decades. And it's for that reason there isn't a clamour for the likes of Rangnick, Campos, Monchi etc among the elite clubs, because Madrid, Barca, Bayern could quite easily hire the likes if they choose to do so.

Did Juventus go for the best candidates for the role from a CV/resume perspective or did they go for the best fit for their club by targeting Italians domestically? If they had gone the CV/resume route then do you think the best answer was only confined to Italy rather than the rest of Europe? Marotta who you say has a CV 'as long as your arm' was at Como, Venezia, Atalanta and Sampdoria before being appointed the GM at Juventus in 2010. With such a CV did he have the credentials to lead Juve after the Calciopoli scandal considering the biggest club he'd been at was the equivalent of Everton in England?. Let's be honest here, if we target someone with a similar CV in England, you'd be calling him out for his lack of experience due to the task at hand but give Marotta a pass when the Juve job was much more difficult compared to United currently after the Calciopoli scandal. It's easy to say he did a great job with hindsight tbf. Juve could've hired someone who had a better CV than Marotta but the Sampdoria man was deemed the best man for Juve and we could learn from that.

I have absolutely no problems with hiring the likes of Rangnick but I also have no issues with hiring Cruyff or even DoFs from England for that matter. But the man brought in has to fit into the setup or there will be issues which would be detrimental to the club in the longrun. We could learn from Juve in that regard when they brought in Marotta from Italy's equivalent of Everton. It's better to have the right man for the club who would work well with the headcoach, rather than just appoint the best man due to his CV/resume.
As explained, many clubs have a history of producing top quality football men (coaches, managers etc). We don't. I can't recall us producing 1 WC manager throughout our entire history. In fact our best 2 managers were a manager from aberdeen and a former City and Liverpool player. Which explains why promoting from within isn't a good idea at least unless we bring first top people in key jobs who can then teach the others the job.

Juventus have to target the local pool simply because while being the big guys in Italy they do tend to struggle to compete financially against the big guns (now less then before). Marotta's CV include Varese, Monza, Como, Ravenna, Venezia, Atalanta, Sampdoria and then Juventus. That's one hell of a learning curve. Most of these teams would shit on most teams managed by the other Cruyff (not the talented Cruyff, but the other one).

Please note that I wouldn't mind if we signed someone like Mitchell. Actually if you follow my posts, you'll know that he's among my top 3 DOFs and my no 1 head of recruitment guy. Paul Mitchell lack the experience Marotta has but he's got quite an impressive record (Southampton, Spurs and RB Leipzig. He's also from Manchester. I can't understand how this guy hasn't been given the job.
 
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devilish

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feck, even Juve went through the Alberto Zaccheroni and Ciro Ferrara phase... I reckon Woodward is Giovanni Cobolli Gigli and Alessio Secco rolled into one...
Both weren't brought in by Marotta. There's a gap between the triade time and Marotta time when Juventus were poorly managed at the top. That was down to calciopoli which dismantled most of Juventus structure. Secco, Cobolli Gigli and Jean-Claude Blanc failed badly during the time.

Still they knew more about football then Woodward. These guys took a heavily hit club back to the Serie A and in CL qualification in record time. Woodward took the champions of England and well, it reduced it to what we're seeing now
 

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It was Maccabi Tel Aviv. They did reach the CL group stage once, but nothing special.
How long since they won the league before he took over? Didnt he take over a club in crisis and gave them CL football? Quite big for a israeli side
 

Adnan

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As explained, many clubs have a history of producing top quality football men (coaches, managers etc). We don't. I can't recall us producing 1 WC manager throughout our entire history. In fact our best 2 managers were a manager from aberdeen and a former City and Liverpool player. Which explains why promoting from within isn't a good idea at least unless we bring first top people in key jobs who can then teach the others the job.

Juventus have to target the local pool simply because while being the big guys in Italy they do tend to struggle to compete financially against the big guns (now less then before). Marotta's CV include Varese, Monza, Como, Ravenna, Venezia, Atalanta, Sampdoria and then Juventus. That's one hell of a learning curve. Most of these teams would shit on most teams managed by the other Cruyff (not the talented Cruyff, but the other one).

Please note that I wouldn't mind if we signed someone like Mitchell. Actually if you follow my posts, you'll know that he's among my top 3 DOFs and my no 1 head of recruitment guy. Paul Mitchell lack the experience Marotta has but he's got quite an impressive record (Southampton, Spurs and RB Leipzig. He's also from Manchester. I can't understand how this guy hasn't been given the job.
The Dutch a have history of producing great footballing minds and Jordi is Dutch and he must've learned a thing or two about football from his old man one would think. He was never as talented as his old man but there's no reason he can't do a good job as a DoF. I know you want Ole out but do try and be reasonable in your assesment by actually doing a little bit of research on the man before pointing to Paul Mitchell and his work in a unrelated role which I will address below.

Weather those teams would've shit on teams where Cruyff was DoF is irrelevant. Marotta's record wasn't that impressive and the best he achieved was top 4 with Sampdoria pre Juve and he's been in a similar role since 1978. And i'm pretty sure Everton have managed that under Moyes and their football department.

Paul Mitchell isn't a DoF and we have people at the club already who could do his job. Dan Ashworth who oversaw the success of the England youth teams which culminated in us winning the u17 and u20 worldcups is where the solution lies if we're looking for a English DoF. But Paul Mitchell as a Head of Recruitment isn't gonna improve us and he's never been a DoF. Believe it or not, we have people at the club who are just as capable and he really wouldn't do very much to improve us.
 

Suedesi

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Both weren't brought in by Marotta. There's a gap between the triade time and Marotta time when Juventus were poorly managed at the top. That was down to calciopoli which dismantled most of Juventus structure. Secco, Cobolli Gigli and Jean-Claude Blanc failed badly during the time.

Still they knew more about football then Woodward. These guys took a heavily hit club back to the Serie A and in CL qualification in record time. Woodward took the champions of England and well, it reduced it to what we're seeing now
I'm well aware of that, if you didn't catch my drift. After the Moggi, Giraudo, Bettega and calciopoli Juve went through some ahem less than optimal choices. They had too, they went to Serie B and had a decimated squad, and no WC player would touch them. They tried Zach, Ciro and Luigi del Neri as coaches as well. I think the turn of fortunes coincided specifically with Marotta and Conte getting appointed.

Which makes you wonder why they let them go and setup shop across the A4 in Milano.
 
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Suedesi

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The Dutch a have history of producing great footballing minds and Jordi is Dutch and he must've learned a thing or two about football from his old man one would think. He was never as talented as his old man but there's no reason he can't do a good job as a DoF. I know you want Ole out but do try and be reasonable in your assesment by actually doing a little bit of research on the man before pointing to Paul Mitchell and his work in a unrelated role which I will address below.

Weather those teams would've shit on teams where Cruyff was DoF is irrelevant. Marotta's record wasn't that impressive and the best he achieved was top 4 with Sampdoria pre Juve and he's been in a similar role since 1978. And i'm pretty sure Everton have managed that under Moyes and their football department.

Paul Mitchell isn't a DoF and we have people at the club already who could do his job. Dan Ashworth who oversaw the success of the England youth teams which culminated in us winning the u17 and u20 worldcups is where the solution lies if we're looking for a English DoF. But Paul Mitchell as a Head of Recruitment isn't gonna improve us and he's never been a DoF. Believe it or not, we have people at the club who are just as capable and he really wouldn't do very much to improve us.
Honestly, that's Italian football for you, you've got to earn your stripes at lower level leagues before getting a chance.

Sampdoria was in Serie B when he was appointed, and to make the top 4 in Italy was a huge achievement. Juventus recognized that and hired him, and in doing so they won 7 titles in a row and he played a huge part in that.

Sarri is another example of long arduous journey to the top. In his career he managed Stia, Faellese, Cavriglia, Antella, Valdema, Tegoleto, Sansovino, Sangiovannese, Pescara, Arezzo, Avellino, Hellas Verona, Perugia, Grosseto, Alessandria, Sorrento, Empoli, Napoli, Chelsea and finally Juve.

BTW, I'm not against Cruyff or Paul Mitchell - don't know either well, and my view is that they can't possibly be worse than Woodie.
 

Adnan

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Honestly, that's Italian football for you, you've got to earn your stripes at lower level leagues before getting a chance.

Sampdoria was in Serie B when he was appointed, and to make the top 4 in Italy was a huge achievement. Juventus recognized that and hired him, and in doing so they won 7 titles in a row and he played a huge part in that.

Sarri is another example of long arduous journey to the top. In his career he managed Stia, Faellese, Cavriglia, Antella, Valdema, Tegoleto, Sansovino, Sangiovannese, Pescara, Arezzo, Avellino, Hellas Verona, Perugia, Grosseto, Alessandria, Sorrento, Empoli, Napoli, Chelsea and finally Juve.

BTW, I'm not against Cruyff or Paul Mitchell - don't know either well, and my view is that they can't possibly be worse than Woodie.
I absolutely admire the work Marotta did at lower league level and his work was valued highly hence being offered the position at Juve. But certain posters seem to have a criteria regarding a potential DoF that isn't the norm at big clubs. A criteria that would deem people like Marotta not good enough due to the clubs he's been at since 1978. But like I said, I admire his work greatly and have even given him the credit for putting 5 scudettos on Allegri's CV/resume which might be alittle harsh on Allegri but the work of Marotta was absolutely outstanding since the Calciopoli and any decent coach was gonna benefit.

I agree on Sarri too, he's had a brilliant career from the lower leagues and deserves the opportunities he's been presented with. But someone like Eddie Howe who has done similar is looked down upon for his work at Bournemouth, especially by United fans post Mourinho on this forum.

I'd personally give Dan Ashworth the job without hesitation if he and the club could come to a agreement.
 

Amir

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How long since they won the league before he took over? Didnt he take over a club in crisis and gave them CL football? Quite big for a israeli side
Yeah, he did well at first. They won the league for three years in a row after he arrived, after a decade. They they struggled for a couple of years before he became coach as well, and left afterwards.
 

Amir

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Marcel Bout, Bryan Robson, Denis Irwin are just afew that could have a significant input. Bout in particular would be key IMO.
Bout I can understand, but what would make Robson or Irwin people who can make a judgement like that? What actual footballing role have they performed for the last ten years? 15 years?
 

Adnan

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Bout I can understand, but what would make Robson or Irwin people who can make a judgement like that? What actual footballing role have they performed for the last ten years? 15 years?
They could have a input along with Bout, Murtough etc. Robbo and Irwin are also very attuned with how football is now compared to when they played. Nicky Butt could also have a input along with Solksjaer.

But I'd say Bout will have a significant influence as Mourinho found out.
 

devilish

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I'm well aware of that, if you didn't catch my drift. After the Moggi, Giraudo, Bettega and calciopoli Juve went through some ahem less than optimal choices. They had too, they went to Serie B and had a decimated squad, and no WC player would touch them. They tried Zach, Ciro and Luigi del Neri as coaches as well. I think the turn of fortunes coincided specifically with Marotta and Conte getting appointed.

Which makes you wonder why they let them go and setup shop across the A4 in Milano.
Conte left after Juventus didn't matched Chelsea's fee regarding Cuadrado. The guy having already started feeling the growing pressure (which is now an obsession) to win the CL, went bonkers the moment Juventus refused to pay the ridiculous fee Fiorentina were asking for him and decided to take his frustrations in the media with his famous 'you can't go and eat in 100 euros restaurant with 10 euros' speech which was a clear jab towards Juventus ambitions to win the CL while concurrently balancing the books.

Ironically Marotta who was the guy responsible of Conte's leaving would then leave years later because Juventus had decided to throw financial caution to the wind by opening their purses for a short term solution (ie Ronaldo). If you ask me, Marotta was right and the situation isn't that great as it used to be when Marotta was there. Clear evidence of that is the Emre Can situation with the player stating that someone at the club pleaded with him to remain, promising him a fair shot to first team despite Sarri clearly stating that he doesn't have faith in the player. That's unheard off at Juventus were things are usually kept under wraps and dealt within the club's premises.
 

devilish

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The Dutch a have history of producing great footballing minds and Jordi is Dutch and he must've learned a thing or two about football from his old man one would think. He was never as talented as his old man but there's no reason he can't do a good job as a DoF. I know you want Ole out but do try and be reasonable in your assesment by actually doing a little bit of research on the man before pointing to Paul Mitchell and his work in a unrelated role which I will address below.

Weather those teams would've shit on teams where Cruyff was DoF is irrelevant. Marotta's record wasn't that impressive and the best he achieved was top 4 with Sampdoria pre Juve and he's been in a similar role since 1978. And i'm pretty sure Everton have managed that under Moyes and their football department.

Paul Mitchell isn't a DoF and we have people at the club already who could do his job. Dan Ashworth who oversaw the success of the England youth teams which culminated in us winning the u17 and u20 worldcups is where the solution lies if we're looking for a English DoF. But Paul Mitchell as a Head of Recruitment isn't gonna improve us and he's never been a DoF. Believe it or not, we have people at the club who are just as capable and he really wouldn't do very much to improve us.
Well according to Paul Mitchell's linked in he has just been promoted to Technical Director at Red Bull International Soccer. That include 4 clubs which are RB Leipzig, F.C. Red Bull Salzburg, New York Red Bulls and Red Bull Brazil. The former two had been in the news for snapping some exciting talent from Haaland to Minamoto right to Werner, Konate and Upamecano. Its safe to say that he would be a great addition to our team.

I am also not comfortable attributing nationality with knowledge. Sure some leagues tend to put more emphasis on the non played part of football which explains why the EPL for example hasn't been producing top quality managers for many many years, however for every LVG there's a De Boer, for every Ten Hag there's a Seedorf, for every Johan Cruyff there's a Jordi. Also technically speaking, Jordi isn't a Dutch product having moved to Barcelona when he was 14 years old. Having watched him with Barcelona and United I struggle to justify the word 'talent' with the guy but that's out of topic.

Regarding Marotta, well I beg to differ. Marotta took Varese and Monza to Serie B, he took Venezia to Serie A, Atalanta to 7th place and he dragged Sampdoria from Serie B to Serie A + the italian cup quarter finals. Sure there were downs as well, but we're talking about clubs who were punching above their weight despite having nearly non existent transfer budgets. Sampdoria are the best of the lot but they are still the traditional selling club. I think we can fairly say that this is far more impressive then Valletta and Chongqing Dangdai Lifan
 
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Adnan

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Well according to Paul Mitchell's linked in he has just been promoted to Technical Director at Red Bull International Soccer. That include 4 clubs which are RB Leipzig, F.C. Red Bull Salzburg, New York Red Bulls and Red Bull Brazil. The former two had been in the news for snapping some exciting talent from Haaland to Minamoto right to Werner, Konate and Upamecano. Its safe to say that he would be a great addition to our team.

I am also not comfortable attributing nationality with knowledge. Sure some leagues tend to put more emphasis on the non played part of football which explains why the EPL for example hasn't been producing top quality managers for many many years, however for every LVG there's a De Boer, for every Ten Hag there's a Seedorf, for every Johan Cruyff there's a Jordi. Also technically speaking, Jordi isn't a Dutch product having moved to Barcelona when he was 14 years old. Having watched him with Barcelona and United I struggle to justify the word 'talent' with the guy but that's out of topic.

Regarding Marotta, well I beg to differ. Marotta took Varese and Monza to Serie B, he took Venezia to Serie A, Atalanta to 7th place and he dragged Sampdoria from Serie B to Serie A + the italian cup quarter finals. Sure there were downs as well, but we're talking about clubs who were punching above their weight despite having nearly non existent transfer budgets. Sampdoria are the best of the lot but they are still the traditional selling club. I think we can fairly say that this is far more impressive then Valletta and Chongqing Dangdai Lifan
Mitchell works under Rangnick at Leipzig and was appointed the German clubs 'Head Of Recruitment' in February 2018 and had nothing to do with signing Konate, Upamecano, Werner, Minamino who were already on the books at the RB clubs before he arrived. Christoph Freund is in charge of the football department at RB Salzburg and has been since 2015 when Ralf Rangnick took over as coach of Leipzig. And it's Freund and the scouts working under him who deserve credit for the signing of Haaland. Maybe Mitchell is the technical director at RedBull Brazil and New York, but if you criticise Jordi Cruyff who has worked as a DoF since 2010 at lowly clubs where he has helped such clubs to punch above their weight, then how can you possibly advocate for Mitchell to take over as a DoF when he has no experience of the role and is possibly in charge of even worse teams?

I don't attribute talent with nationality. I was just using your reasoning against you when you mentioned that United don't produce people from within who could take over such a role as one of the reasons why you don't think Cruyff should be considered. Nicky Butt is a in-house appointment and you won't find anyone who follows the youth say he hasn't done a good job thus far in our Academy.

There's absolutely no correlation to what Jordi Cruyff did as a player in comparison to his work as a DoF, absolutely none. So not sure why you keep bringing up his talent as a player to use as a stick to beat him with. One could be a very good DoF without having a very good playing career.

You're not differing with me on Marotta. I have always valued people who start from the bottom and work their way up. Do you value the work of Eddie Howe and Chris Wilder at Bournemouth and Sheffield United to consider them as potential Man Utd managers in the future? And if you value the work of Marotta at lowly Italian clubs due to him helping those clubs punch above their weight, you should also appreciate the work of Jordi Cruyff who has done the same since 2010 and is 17 years younger in comparison to Marotta.

For a DoF structure to work there has to be a click between the headcoach and football department. If the click isn't there, then problems will arise which will set the club back. Scouting players and identifying players hasn't been the issue for us (contrary to what some believe) and most competent DoFs could do the job. But the club has to pull in the same direction, which we haven't done for a number of years now. Your scouts are only as good as the direction they're pulled into. And our fundamental issue has been to give too much control to the manager which is a position of uncertainty which has cost us dearly regards player turn over. No potential DoF has a magic wand to rectify things if the working conditions aren't condusive to bringing out the best in our recruitment team/scouts.
 

Johan07

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Mitchell works under Rangnick at Leipzig and was appointed the German clubs 'Head Of Recruitment' in February 2018 and had nothing to do with signing Konate, Upamecano, Werner, Minamino who were already on the books at the RB clubs before he arrived. Christoph Freund is in charge of the football department at RB Salzburg and has been since 2015 when Ralf Rangnick took over as coach of Leipzig. And it's Freund and the scouts working under him who deserve credit for the signing of Haaland. Maybe Mitchell is the technical director at RedBull Brazil and New York, but if you criticise Jordi Cruyff who has worked as a DoF since 2010 at lowly clubs where he has helped such clubs to punch above their weight, then how can you possibly advocate for Mitchell to take over as a DoF when he has no experience of the role and is possibly in charge of even worse teams?

I don't attribute talent with nationality. I was just using your reasoning against you when you mentioned that United don't produce people from within who could take over such a role as one of the reasons why you don't think Cruyff should be considered. Nicky Butt is a in-house appointment and you won't find anyone who follows the youth say he hasn't done a good job thus far in our Academy.

There's absolutely no correlation to what Jordi Cruyff did as a player in comparison to his work as a DoF, absolutely none. So not sure why you keep bringing up his talent as a player to use as a stick to beat him with. One could be a very good DoF without having a very good playing career.

You're not differing with me on Marotta. I have always valued people who start from the bottom and work their way up. Do you value the work of Eddie Howe and Chris Wilder at Bournemouth and Sheffield United to consider them as potential Man Utd managers in the future? And if you value the work of Marotta at lowly Italian clubs due to him helping those clubs punch above their weight, you should also appreciate the work of Jordi Cruyff who has done the same since 2010 and is 17 years younger in comparison to Marotta.

For a DoF structure to work there has to be a click between the headcoach and football department. If the click isn't there, then problems will arise which will set the club back. Scouting players and identifying players hasn't been the issue for us (contrary to what some believe) and most competent DoFs could do the job. But the club has to pull in the same direction, which we haven't done for a number of years now. Your scouts are only as good as the direction they're pulled into. And our fundamental issue has been to give too much control to the manager which is a position of uncertainty which has cost us dearly regards player turn over. No potential DoF has a magic wand to rectify things if the working conditions aren't condusive to bringing out the best in our recruitment team/scouts.
This in a nutshell. We need a manager and a DoF that are prepared to work closely with the clubs own scouting and youth system. We saw what happened when Mourinho clashed with the clubs scouting system because he wanted to run his own thing with his own contacts when it came to recruitment.
It would be exactly the same if we employ a DoF and letting him bring in his own contact network and scout "his" own players. It would be the same clash again just on another hierarchial level.
We need a DoF and a manager who both are willing to work hard long term together with the the clubs youth and scouting departments (who both will still be there long after the DoF and manager are gone). There is a reason that the most successful clubs recruit their DoFs or whatever you call them internally or at least within the vicinity of the club.
What we dont need is a DoF to be brought in to overrule them with his own ideas and/or scouting contacts. The club needs to work together on all levels and that has not been the case over the last couple of years which has been the major problem IMO.
 

devilish

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Mitchell works under Rangnick at Leipzig and was appointed the German clubs 'Head Of Recruitment' in February 2018 and had nothing to do with signing Konate, Upamecano, Werner, Minamino who were already on the books at the RB clubs before he arrived. Christoph Freund is in charge of the football department at RB Salzburg and has been since 2015 when Ralf Rangnick took over as coach of Leipzig. And it's Freund and the scouts working under him who deserve credit for the signing of Haaland. Maybe Mitchell is the technical director at RedBull Brazil and New York, but if you criticise Jordi Cruyff who has worked as a DoF since 2010 at lowly clubs where he has helped such clubs to punch above their weight, then how can you possibly advocate for Mitchell to take over as a DoF when he has no experience of the role and is possibly in charge of even worse teams?

I don't attribute talent with nationality. I was just using your reasoning against you when you mentioned that United don't produce people from within who could take over such a role as one of the reasons why you don't think Cruyff should be considered. Nicky Butt is a in-house appointment and you won't find anyone who follows the youth say he hasn't done a good job thus far in our Academy.

There's absolutely no correlation to what Jordi Cruyff did as a player in comparison to his work as a DoF, absolutely none. So not sure why you keep bringing up his talent as a player to use as a stick to beat him with. One could be a very good DoF without having a very good playing career.

You're not differing with me on Marotta. I have always valued people who start from the bottom and work their way up. Do you value the work of Eddie Howe and Chris Wilder at Bournemouth and Sheffield United to consider them as potential Man Utd managers in the future? And if you value the work of Marotta at lowly Italian clubs due to him helping those clubs punch above their weight, you should also appreciate the work of Jordi Cruyff who has done the same since 2010 and is 17 years younger in comparison to Marotta.

For a DoF structure to work there has to be a click between the headcoach and football department. If the click isn't there, then problems will arise which will set the club back. Scouting players and identifying players hasn't been the issue for us (contrary to what some believe) and most competent DoFs could do the job. But the club has to pull in the same direction, which we haven't done for a number of years now. Your scouts are only as good as the direction they're pulled into. And our fundamental issue has been to give too much control to the manager which is a position of uncertainty which has cost us dearly regards player turn over. No potential DoF has a magic wand to rectify things if the working conditions aren't condusive to bringing out the best in our recruitment team/scouts.
As said he's now the technical director whose exactly what we need. If a better run company then United think that Mitchell is good enough to do the job then so should we. Also what I stated has nothing to do with nationality. United had never produced a WC manager in all its history. Ole can be as silly as Gary Neville is and he's ;foreign'. That doesn't mean that I am anti British. As said I wouldn't mind if we get Paul Mitchell as technical director

Jordi was a non entity as a player whose experience as a DOF comes with amateur clubs. I assure you, Valletta makes Monza look like Real Madrid. The rest well, are shit clubs most of us didn't knew it existed. You can't compare these teams with Serie B or Serie A, especially since the latter is considered as one of the finest leagues in the world.

My argument is simple. We never had a DOF in our history as we always relied on a genius manager to do everything. Considering how poorly run this club is and how many rookies we've got in top jobs who are clearly out of depth (Woodward, Ole, Mckenna, Carrick etc) then lets start getting some top quality/experience to compensate.
 

Adnan

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As said he's now the technical director whose exactly what we need. If a better run company then United think that Mitchell is good enough to do the job then so should we. Also what I stated has nothing to do with nationality. United had never produced a WC manager in all its history. Ole can be as silly as Gary Neville is and he's ;foreign'. That doesn't mean that I am anti British. As said I wouldn't mind if we get Paul Mitchell as technical director

Jordi was a non entity as a player whose experience as a DOF comes with amateur clubs. I assure you, Valletta makes Monza look like Real Madrid. The rest well, are shit clubs most of us didn't knew it existed. You can't compare these teams with Serie B or Serie A, especially since the latter is considered as one of the finest leagues in the world.

My argument is simple. We never had a DOF in our history as we always relied on a genius manager to do everything. Considering how poorly run this club is and how many rookies we've got in top jobs who are clearly out of depth (Woodward, Ole, Mckenna, Carrick etc) then lets start getting some top quality/experience to compensate.
Mitchell is a glorified scout and isn't in charge of either RB Salzburg or Leipzig. He infact works under Ralf Rangnick as someone who compiles scout reports for the German DoF. And if he has been made the technical director at RB New York recently , then why should he get the United DoF role when he has zero experience? Should we give Mitchell the DoF role because the RedBull organisation have given him a similar role just recently at their clubs in New York and Brazil?

Cruyff worked as DoF at AEK Larnaca which is a Cypriot team and he also appointed the headcoach. And in tandem they created history by qualifying for the Europa League group stage which was a first in the history of Cypriot football and that too with a tiny club. Fantastic achievement wouldn't you say?

The owner of Maccabi Haifa then paid compensation to acquire the services of Cruyff due to his club going 10 years without the title. Cruyff was given control of the football department and appointed a headcoach of his choice and in tandem they delivered Maccabi's first title in 10 years by a margin of 13 points and they followed that with another title the following season by a margin of 16 points. A club that hadn't won the league for 10 years was dominating the league under their DoF Cruyff and he did it by appointing two coaches in successive seasons. He also oversaw Maccabi reaching the last 32 of the Europa League defeating Eintract Frankfurt and Bordeaux twice which was a fantastic achievement for the club in the 2012/13 season. He also won the domestic treble in his time at Maccabi which had historically never been done before. He also oversaw Maccabi reaching the group stages of the Champions League which they hadn't reached for 11 years. His work at Maccabi has been nothing short of spectacular and someone like Paul Mitchell doesn't even come close to what Cruyff has achieved as a DoF.

If your argument is simple like you have stated. Then you surely understand that someone like Cruyff would be a far superior appointment to Mitchell due to the information provided above. Cruyff has experience of evaluating a squad, appointing a coach and executing a plan to revive a football team with great success. Mitchell has none of that because he's a scout.
 

devilish

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Mitchell is a glorified scout and isn't in charge of either RB Salzburg or Leipzig. He infact works under Ralf Rangnick as someone who compiles scout reports for the German DoF. And if he has been made the technical director at RB New York recently , then why should he get the United DoF role when he has zero experience? Should we give Mitchell the DoF role because the RedBull organisation have given him a similar role just recently at their clubs in New York and Brazil?

Cruyff worked as DoF at AEK Larnaca which is a Cypriot team and he also appointed the headcoach. And in tandem they created history by qualifying for the Europa League group stage which was a first in the history of Cypriot football and that too with a tiny club. Fantastic achievement wouldn't you say?

The owner of Maccabi Haifa then paid compensation to acquire the services of Cruyff due to his club going 10 years without the title. Cruyff was given control of the football department and appointed a headcoach of his choice and in tandem they delivered Maccabi's first title in 10 years by a margin of 13 points and they followed that with another title the following season by a margin of 16 points. A club that hadn't won the league for 10 years was dominating the league under their DoF Cruyff and he did it by appointing two coaches in successive seasons. He also oversaw Maccabi reaching the last 32 of the Europa League defeating Eintract Frankfurt and Bordeaux twice which was a fantastic achievement for the club in the 2012/13 season. He also won the domestic treble in his time at Maccabi which had historically never been done before. He also oversaw Maccabi reaching the group stages of the Champions League which they hadn't reached for 11 years. His work at Maccabi has been nothing short of spectacular and someone like Paul Mitchell doesn't even come close to what Cruyff has achieved as a DoF.

If your argument is simple like you have stated. Then you surely understand that someone like Cruyff would be a far superior appointment to Mitchell due to the information provided above. Cruyff has experience of evaluating a squad, appointing a coach and executing a plan to revive a football team with great success. Mitchell has none of that because he's a scout.
Head of recruitment is a glorified scout as Sir Alex Ferguson was a head coach. Anyway......Mitchell had been head of recruitment first at Mk Dons, then at Southampton, then at Spurs and then at RB Leipzig‎. Now he's technical director of the Red bull organisation which include RB Leipzig‎ and Red Bull Salzburg. We're talking about progression here, a man proven time and time again in a rather difficult job which we need (head of recruitment) at top level football here. I can't see how he can be compared to amateur level football here like lets say Malta, Israel, China and Cyprus, most of whom play football which border to a joke (Maltese football is a joke, its painful to watch). Regarding those results my old man remember Hibs (Malta) getting a draw against Busby's Manchester United (with Best, Charlton and co) and I remember Malta losing just 2-1 against England (Scholes, Gaz, Beckham and Sol Campbell played + Shearer should have seen red after elbowing a player, breaking his nose in the process), Malta losing just 1-0 against Italy (the team of Buffon, Chiellini, Marchisio, Verratti and Florenzi) ah and Michael Mifsud making Evans and Pique look like Prunier scoring 2 goals which lead to Manchester United being knocked out of the Carling cup. Flukes do happen (although I still think that Mifsud was better then he went on showing), that doesn't mean that some leagues are, well, shit.

So yes I do think that Mitchell could do a good job with United. I am not that sure about Cruyff.
 

Adnan

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Head of recruitment is a glorified scout as Sir Alex Ferguson was a head coach. Anyway......Mitchell had been head of recruitment first at Mk Dons, then at Southampton, then at Spurs and then at RB Leipzig‎. Now he's technical director of the Red bull organisation which include RB Leipzig‎ and Red Bull Salzburg. We're talking about progression here, a man proven time and time again in a rather difficult job which we need (head of recruitment) at top level football here. I can't see how he can be compared to amateur level football here like lets say Malta, Israel, China and Cyprus, most of whom play football which border to a joke (Maltese football is a joke, its painful to watch). Regarding those results my old man remember Hibs (Malta) getting a draw against Busby's Manchester United (with Best, Charlton and co) and I remember Malta losing just 2-1 against England (Scholes, Gaz, Beckham and Sol Campbell played + Shearer should have seen red after elbowing a player, breaking his nose in the process), Malta losing just 1-0 against Italy (the team of Buffon, Chiellini, Marchisio, Verratti and Florenzi) ah and Michael Mifsud making Evans and Pique look like Prunier scoring 2 goals which lead to Manchester United being knocked out of the Carling cup. Flukes do happen (although I still think that Mifsud was better then he went on showing), that doesn't mean that some leagues are, well, shit.

So yes I do think that Mitchell could do a good job with United. I am not that sure about Cruyff.
I've actually proved to you that Mitchell has done nothing in comparison to Cruyff to deserve getting the DoF job at United. You also carry on about Mitchell and his work in a unreltated role to the one we're talking about. What has Mitchell done as Technical Director at RedBull to even be considered a competent person for the role? The answer is nothing and you've quite clearly been misled by his Linkedin page because Mitchell isn't the technical director at either the two RedBull clubs in Europe which is quite telling.

I've constantly corrected your mistakes in here but you still carry on. You point to our inexperienced coaching team as the reason you don't want Cruyff who has actually been a success as a DoF, but will accept Mitchell for a role he has zero experience in. Hiring a complete novice like Mitchell to be the DoF will really help our inexperienced coaching team, mind boggling.
 

Ali Dia

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It is interesting to think of English clubs who’ve hired DOFS and where they are now in relation to their spending and ambitions

City and Pool doing great being run from above. They are well run the last few years and have built formidable teams with a defined and effective style of play. I admire what Klopp has done with players like mane, Robertson, TAA etc, they are all fast and creative... we could have had vvd or Maguire for 1/3 of the price if we had our house in order and a plan in place. City seem do their business fast and have no problem offloading deadwood at a loss. So yes you can say it’s working out very well for them.

Spurs and Leicester: both well run clubs. Relying on youth and young hungry signings all while trying to play in the right way. At the end of the day neither will win much and they are both selling clubs if the price is right. I think they also both realise the likes of city united etc will spend whatever it takes to stay above clubs of their level and there’s no point trying to financially compete with that year in year out. Only one team can win the league and arguably only united can or will go toe to toe with city when it comes to fees and wages

Chelsea see city and Liverpool but having lost their way a little. A few good signings with their excellent youth recruitment and who knows what their ceiling is. They seem to have stopped dealing at the very top of end of the market for now but they’ve been very successful using the dof approach since roman came in.

it’s at this point then you get to Arsenal and Everton’s of this world... can you really say the dof plan is working for them? I can’t really see it. Everton are buying big names with something to prove (a bit like city in beginning?) and arsenal are just arsenal despite breaking their own transfer record and bringing in some decent players over the last few years.....

I guess what I’m trying to say is hiring a dof guarantees you nothing either really. It’s about who hires them and what the true intent of the club is. If it’s to win at all costs that’s going to cost a fortune or you need luck in hiring a recruitment genius and even you still need the perfect storm of the right coach, system and players who will play for each other. PSG still haven’t won anything yet despite the financial doping and being able to rest players in the league whenever they want. It seems like a really good approach if the plan is to develop players and possibly sell them on but then on the other hand if Monaco or Dortmund were able to keep their strongest teams together a year or two longer and add some more really good signings would they have won the CL? Who knows!

Sorry about the post being all over the place . I will edit as the evening goes on. I hope I’ve started to make a decent point
 

devilish

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I've actually proved to you that Mitchell has done nothing in comparison to Cruyff to deserve getting the DoF job at United. You also carry on about Mitchell and his work in a unreltated role to the one we're talking about. What has Mitchell done as Technical Director at RedBull to even be considered a competent person for the role? The answer is nothing and you've quite clearly been misled by his Linkedin page because Mitchell isn't the technical director at either the two RedBull clubs in Europe which is quite telling.

I've constantly corrected your mistakes in here but you still carry on. You point to our inexperienced coaching team as the reason you don't want Cruyff who has actually been a success as a DoF, but will accept Mitchell for a role he has zero experience in. Hiring a complete novice like Mitchell to be the DoF will really help our inexperienced coaching team, mind boggling.
First of all the job being offered is that of technical director, which is what Mitchell is doing at Red Bull right now.

Now you insist that the head of recruitment job is a glorified scout job which is not. In fact this 'glorified scout' has been given the technical director role at Red bull organisation. Red bull seem to have some very competent people working with them who are actually producing results. So unless you know more about the role then they do, then I guess, Mitchell can do well in that job

I also fail to understand how experience as a DOF with amateur teams translate in more experience at EPL and Bundesliga clubs. Actually I think the like of Bout would be better off as our DOF then Jordi. Sure his job is slightly different to that of DOF, however he knows how real football operate from a non player's perspective which, I am afraid, is something Jordi does not.

Finally Cruyff's rumour wasn't picked up by any of the reliable media outlets (BBC, etc) so I guess we're wasting time discussing it.
 
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RedDevilRoshi

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Is their any reputable truth to this Cruyff rumour or just made up bulls*** like it has been for the last number of months regarding us hiring a DoF?
 

Resch

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Hiring a DoF is like buying a player, sometimes it works out, sometime it does not work out, most of the time is something in between. But if you get the right DoF, you will have a very good team for the next decade.
 

AneRu

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I don't get why some would be opposed to Cruyff just because he's been at the club or is friends with Ole. I had to look up his credentials but it seems he's been working as a Director of Football since 2010 and has been successful in that role at 2 different clubs. They may be clubs at a much lower level, but surely close to a decade of experience and good performance are exactly the sort of qualifications we're looking for.
Me too, he has done well wherever he has gone and it's not like he doesn't know how top level football operates having playing at United and Barcelona whilst practically being part of football's absolute blue blood. Reading the article above he has good business qualifications and his coaching badges.
 

Adnan

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First of all the job being offered is that of technical director, which is what Mitchell is doing at Red Bull right now.

Now you insist that the head of recruitment job is a glorified scout job which is not. In fact this 'glorified scout' has been given the technical director role at Red bull organisation (4 clubs). Red bull seem to have some very competent people working with them who are actually producing results. So unless you know more about the role then they do, then I guess, Mitchell can do well in that job

I also fail to understand how experience as a DOF with amateur teams translate in more experience at EPL and Bundesliga clubs. Actually I think the like of Bout would be better off as our DOF then Jordi. Sure his job is slightly different to that of DOF, however he knows what real football operate from a non player's perspective which, I am afraid, is something Jordi does not.

Finally Cruyff's rumour wasn't picked up by any of the reliable media outlets (BBC, etc) so I guess we're wasting time discussing it.
Ralf Rangnick and Christoph Freund run the football side at both Salzburg and Leipzig. So which clubs in particular is Mitchell the technical director at in the RedBull organisation and what has he shown as a technical director to improve upon our inexperienced coaching staff?
 

JohnnyKills

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Tbf, the role could have various names. As someone said earlier, Mitchell's title is not DoF. For all we know Marcel Bout is performing the role already.
 

Chesterlestreet

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...most of the time is something in between.
Like most things in life, yes.

The key, however, is to have a basic idea in place - which the director of football is tasked with executing. If that idea is crap in the first place, it doesn't matter who you hire - obviously. If the idea is more or less right (for your type of club, your budget, etc.), however, hiring a DOF should be less hit-and-miss than hiring individual players (or "head coaches", for that matter).

In United's case, that basic idea is where it's at. We can't just hire a DOF and expect him to work miracles (that would just be another version of the "hire another Fergie" idea.

We need a plan. We need - I'm sorry to use such a loaded term, but there it is - a "culture" in place before anything else. We had that under Fergie. But it was a culture safeguarded by an individual - an enlightened ruler, the ultimate incarnation of the old British manager idea. That was then, though, things change. There won't be another Fergie, realistically.

Going forward, we need something else. More people need to be involved, I think: a group of "football people" to formulate, and then protect, a long-term plan or "vision" for a club with a potential (in terms of fan base, world wide appeal, current revenue, historical standing - you name it) rivaled by, well, hardly anyone. And then - you can hire a DOF to carry out things in practice.

And then sack him, replace him - if he fails to deliver according to set standards. Just as the DOF himself can suggest sacking and replacing any "head coach" who fails to deliver.
 

Adnan

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Tbf, the role could have various names. As someone said earlier, Mitchell's title is not DoF. For all we know Marcel Bout is performing the role already.
Bout is already doing what Mitchell would do. So it's pointless recruiting Mitchell.
 

Resch

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Like most things in life, yes.

The key, however, is to have a basic idea in place - which the director of football is tasked with executing. If that idea is crap in the first place, it doesn't matter who you hire - obviously. If the idea is more or less right (for your type of club, your budget, etc.), however, hiring a DOF should be less hit-and-miss than hiring individual players (or "head coaches", for that matter).

In United's case, that basic idea is where it's at. We can't just hire a DOF and expect him to work miracles (that would just be another version of the "hire another Fergie" idea.

We need a plan. We need - I'm sorry to use such a loaded term, but there it is - a "culture" in place before anything else. We had that under Fergie. But it was a culture safeguarded by an individual - an enlightened ruler, the ultimate incarnation of the old British manager idea. That was then, though, things change. There won't be another Fergie, realistically.

Going forward, we need something else. More people need to be involved, I think: a group of "football people" to formulate, and then protect, a long-term plan or "vision" for a club with a potential (in terms of fan base, world wide appeal, current revenue, historical standing - you name it) rivaled by, well, hardly anyone. And then - you can hire a DOF to carry out things in practice.

And then sack him, replace him - if he fails to deliver according to set standards. Just as the DOF himself can suggest sacking and replacing any "head coach" who fails to deliver.
United misses a mission statement, the idea of what kind of football club United wants to be.
No one at United has an idea how to develop United as a football club. They want titles, youth, money. But you need more, much more. I have the feeling that noone at United has an idea what Manchester United should stand for. The feeling of a fan thinking about his United. The dreams of women, men and kids watching the greatest football club in the world. The feeling you get in stadium, between other fans, after your club beat the rival with a goal in the 92th minute. The fight, the desire....
 

The Boy

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I am not ITK and have no more information than anyone else here, but I suspect the reason you've pulled away from hiring a DoF suggests Ed really does see Ole at OT for the long term.

His reason for wanting one was the random players signed by Moyes, LvG and Jose all signed for different systems and different visions of the club. But for the first time since SAF left everyone in the club seems to be pulling in the same direction Ed really has bought into Ole's idea of young players, a British core and playing for the badge not the wage.

From Ed's perspective the last transfer window has been a good one Maguire, British and experienced and hitting his peak as a player, AWB young and already the best defensive RB in the league and James, who has made a huge impact from the Championship. The players you're strongly rumoured to be in for match the same pattern, Haaland only 19, Sancho, young, British and hugely talented and Maddison again young and British.

I guess Ed's thinking would be, if everyone in the club already agrees on the direction and philosophy and everyone is already bought into it, why do you need to create an extra role of DoF to make sure it carries on.

He looks at the results and sees a united dressing room, something that none of the previous managers have managed, I think Ed thinks Ole is truly onto something and again from his point of view, it works financially and it works from a PR perspective for both fans and investors. Unless he truly screws up Ole is with you for the long term, which I guess will please some and upset others here!
 

Adnan

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Mino Raiola: “The club [#mufc] needs a specialist, a sports director, someone between the team, the coach and the owners, someone who can bridge the sides." #mulive [telegraph]

Raiola: "Today you need that specialist because the coach has no time to manage scouts and other tasks and I feel that is lacking at Manchester United." #mulive [telegraph]
 

Adnan

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Mino Raiola: “In truth I look at #mufc and think that they have more an American mentality than a European one — I mean that sometimes it seems the club is more concerned about the economic part than the sports part and that's a very American way of thinking." #mulive [telegraph]
 

AshRK

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Mino Raiola: “The club [#mufc] needs a specialist, a sports director, someone between the team, the coach and the owners, someone who can bridge the sides." #mulive [telegraph]

Raiola: "Today you need that specialist because the coach has no time to manage scouts and other tasks and I feel that is lacking at Manchester United." #mulive [telegraph]
Mino Raiola: “In truth I look at #mufc and think that they have more an American mentality than a European one — I mean that sometimes it seems the club is more concerned about the economic part than the sports part and that's a very American way of thinking." #mulive [telegraph]
Raiola talking more sense than Woodward. Every Tom, Dick and Harry knows we need a Football director who can take and make footballing decisions but Woody has other plans.
 
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