Whole lot of whataboutism going on in the media. The simple fact stands, City are cheaters its been pretty obvious for years. Should be stripped off and relegated.
Manchester City banned from CL for 2 seasons and fined 30 million euros | CAS - Ban lifted, fined 10 million
- Thread starter roonster09
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What about the 17/18 PL title!
2012 title too.
It's a shame this didn't come when we were in a position of strength, and they were at their peak, as it is it's hard to laugh too much at this just now given the mess we are, and the fact City are pretty average themselves this season...But I'll try all the same.
Manchester United title winner 2017/2018
They should get relegated in league two
Sign De Bruyne for free
Sign De Bruyne for free
Does anyone know whereabouts this “top table” (or “cabal” as some like to call it) resides in Europe?
A nice secluded chateau in the south of France perhaps? Or maybe the hills of Tuscany? Where, in the cover of darkness, one by one, Europe‘s traditional super clubs arrive to discuss how to conspire against the likes of City to prevent them from ever pulling up a chair and dining with the big boys.
A nice secluded chateau in the south of France perhaps? Or maybe the hills of Tuscany? Where, in the cover of darkness, one by one, Europe‘s traditional super clubs arrive to discuss how to conspire against the likes of City to prevent them from ever pulling up a chair and dining with the big boys.
There seems to be some sympathy for City in the media, which I don't understand at all. City know the rules and, even though they don't agree with them, understand that they need to abide by them. The rules are there because most clubs want them to be there, and think they help to ensure fair competition. City's open disdain for FFP, and their flagrant efforts to circimvent it, doesn't merely show contempt for the governing bodies, but also for all the clubs they compete against who do operate within the rules.
The term 'financial doping' has been used, and this is a good way to look at it. We wouldn't applaud or defend drugs cheats in sport, and what City have been doing is every bit as deplorable.
The question about whether FFP is good or bad for the competition is irrelevant: it's what's in place, and most other clubs are operating within the rules (with the probable exception of PSG, I don't believe there is widespread cheating in this regard). If City, and PSG, feel the rules need to be changed, then they will have to convince the other clubs who largely support it to back their proposals. Until that happens, they are obligated to work within the rules or face the consequences.
The term 'financial doping' has been used, and this is a good way to look at it. We wouldn't applaud or defend drugs cheats in sport, and what City have been doing is every bit as deplorable.
The question about whether FFP is good or bad for the competition is irrelevant: it's what's in place, and most other clubs are operating within the rules (with the probable exception of PSG, I don't believe there is widespread cheating in this regard). If City, and PSG, feel the rules need to be changed, then they will have to convince the other clubs who largely support it to back their proposals. Until that happens, they are obligated to work within the rules or face the consequences.
They've cultivated a gaggle of sycophants in the media just for this purpose for the past few years. They are very easy to mark out now.
Yeah, I’m often quite lenient toward Chelsea in these kinda threads, especially compared to City as I do remember them being a reasonably competitive and successful side before the takeover (Zola never played a single game under the Ambramovich regime, for example) ... but the one majorly obnoxious thing they started, that the Arab royal clubs have continued, is the practice of gross squad hoarding, even extending to their academies... No team should be allowed to have essentially two whole first XI level sides...
It's one thing to justify spending big in order to catch up to the supposed "elites" but when those elite clubs have never built their teams like that and have always been just as susceptible to the whims of injury or suspension as everyone else (United, Pool & Arse have always played youth or slightly janky back ups whenever their big guns were out), then you're clearly not operating at the same "justified" level...
Exactly. People like to moan about the big clubs staying big but that doesn’t explain the fact that absolutely any club can invest all their money in their youth team, make a concentrated effort to get all the best youth players in their catchment area, find some of the best under 19 youth prospects in Europe and develop a team that can challenge for titles. Along with that, market themselves in a way that increases their brand and revenue streams.
But you know why they don’t do it? It’s a 10 year plan, that’s why. The chairmen and fans want success today, which puts pressure on managers to buy developed players for fees and wages they can’t afford and most of the time it goes tits up.
Southampton have done a great job of this in recent years, the only issue they’ve had is selling too many players and losing good managers, otherwise they’d be in a really good place right now.
Some must be on the payroll, or getting very nice Christmas presents.
Thats on CL missing out only though. Imagine if players can leave for free on breach of contract, would KDB stick around for 2 seasons with no CL. Imagine the wages Real etc.. could throw at them with no transfer fee. The guy is probably the best CM in the world and at his peak. Not gonna like if I was him I'd be gone. Honestly I think only the older players and squad fillers would stick around. Anyone whose in their peak would be crazy to waste 2 seasons like that.
I'd take the past being left alone if they got relegated to League 2. Anyone else?
From my perspective; this is a crooked decision made by a crooked organisation for crooked reasons, a decision I hope finally compells the Shieks who own Man City finally take legal action against UEFA to try and overturn FFP.
As for why I hold this view; this is why:
1: If UEFA was willing to provide a level playing field for all clubs to compete in; it would be a lot more effective if they required all media coverage to be both free to air & freely available to all (thus killing off Broadcasting Revenue), ban all sponsorship (thus killing off Sponsorship Revenue), reintroduce gate sharing, introduce a low maximum cap of ticket prices and require all clubs to be owned by their supporters.
Because those 5 measures are the only way a true level playing field between football clubs can be established.
Since UEFA are unwilling to do any of this (and coupled with the evidence that's out there); it's clear to see that FFP is nothing more than a protection racket designed to protect the established clubs no matter what the cost it brings to the beautiful game.
2: Which brings onto why FFP is a said protection racket; now we can all agree that the modern game is increasingly dominated by money and thus it has become increasingly harder for upstart clubs to challenge the established clubs (unless they really screw themselves really badly as the Milan clubs have done), let alone win trophies against those clubs.
I mean we have seen numerous clubs do the right thing, invest in youth, prospects & potential talents with the aim of eventually building a great side. Now sure those clubs ended up establishing great sides and won a few trophies along the way, but do you what happened to each and every one of those sides?
They got raided by bigger richer clubs in a better position to win trophies.
Heck even Tottenham is dangerously close to being in that position themselves...
Thus it's clear to see that the only way any club can challenge the established clubs (no matter what else they do) and join the footballing elites is though major capital investments (including the willingness to take losses for many years by their owners) into said club.
3: The problem is though; FFP pretty much makes it impossible to spend the hundreds of millions (or even billions) needed to get a club to join the elites.
Thus it ultimately makes sure that the current established clubs stay as they are without any prospect of anyone else challenging their status, which in turn makes the various National Leagues of Europe & Champions League even less competitive than it would otherwise be without FFP.
It's gets even worse though, because besides the fact this ban (if upheld) will effectively turn the CL into an El Classico SuperCup in all but name (until recently, it was heading towards that direction) & enable Liverpool to dominate the PL*; it will also make life easier for many of those established clubs (including ourselves) who are owned/run by people more focused on milking the fans rather than on any ambition to win.
Mainly because without the likes of Man City being around; there will be less competition for the European Places (Thus giving them even less reasons to invest in their teams) & there will be less fear of losing their best players to more ambitious clubs.
Thus while I agree that the real intentions behind the Al Nahyan's ownership of Man City are nothing more than a PR scheme to cover up their sins; in an age where there are too many bad owners and a lack of competition within European Football. Any attempt to both discourage ambitious owners & increased competition within European Football (such as this ban) should never be considered a good thing.
*Because seriously; who will be left to challenge them?
As for why I hold this view; this is why:
1: If UEFA was willing to provide a level playing field for all clubs to compete in; it would be a lot more effective if they required all media coverage to be both free to air & freely available to all (thus killing off Broadcasting Revenue), ban all sponsorship (thus killing off Sponsorship Revenue), reintroduce gate sharing, introduce a low maximum cap of ticket prices and require all clubs to be owned by their supporters.
Because those 5 measures are the only way a true level playing field between football clubs can be established.
Since UEFA are unwilling to do any of this (and coupled with the evidence that's out there); it's clear to see that FFP is nothing more than a protection racket designed to protect the established clubs no matter what the cost it brings to the beautiful game.
2: Which brings onto why FFP is a said protection racket; now we can all agree that the modern game is increasingly dominated by money and thus it has become increasingly harder for upstart clubs to challenge the established clubs (unless they really screw themselves really badly as the Milan clubs have done), let alone win trophies against those clubs.
I mean we have seen numerous clubs do the right thing, invest in youth, prospects & potential talents with the aim of eventually building a great side. Now sure those clubs ended up establishing great sides and won a few trophies along the way, but do you what happened to each and every one of those sides?
They got raided by bigger richer clubs in a better position to win trophies.
Heck even Tottenham is dangerously close to being in that position themselves...
Thus it's clear to see that the only way any club can challenge the established clubs (no matter what else they do) and join the footballing elites is though major capital investments (including the willingness to take losses for many years by their owners) into said club.
3: The problem is though; FFP pretty much makes it impossible to spend the hundreds of millions (or even billions) needed to get a club to join the elites.
Thus it ultimately makes sure that the current established clubs stay as they are without any prospect of anyone else challenging their status, which in turn makes the various National Leagues of Europe & Champions League even less competitive than it would otherwise be without FFP.
It's gets even worse though, because besides the fact this ban (if upheld) will effectively turn the CL into an El Classico SuperCup in all but name (until recently, it was heading towards that direction) & enable Liverpool to dominate the PL*; it will also make life easier for many of those established clubs (including ourselves) who are owned/run by people more focused on milking the fans rather than on any ambition to win.
Mainly because without the likes of Man City being around; there will be less competition for the European Places (Thus giving them even less reasons to invest in their teams) & there will be less fear of losing their best players to more ambitious clubs.
Thus while I agree that the real intentions behind the Al Nahyan's ownership of Man City are nothing more than a PR scheme to cover up their sins; in an age where there are too many bad owners and a lack of competition within European Football. Any attempt to both discourage ambitious owners & increased competition within European Football (such as this ban) should never be considered a good thing.
*Because seriously; who will be left to challenge them?
Who are the established clubs UEFA are trying to protect? United who haven’t won the league in 7, Liverpool who haven’t won the league in 30, or are we just talking about Bayern Madrid Barcelona here?
Are you trying to tell me Altuve, Bergman, Correa, and Springer aren't great hitters? Verlander not a great pitcher?
There is really nothing more to say if you think the Astros weren't already a great team.
No, I'm not. I'm telling you that they cheated badly and that these hitters knew which pitch were coming. For you to downplay it is extremely strange, that's a massive edge.Are you trying to tell me Altuve, Bergman, Correa, and Springer aren't great hitters? Verlander not a great pitcher?
There is really nothing more to say if you think the Astros weren't already a great team.
Always liked Wenger
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While i cannot see their titles stripped off them out of curiosity though how would that work ?
Would the winning players recieve medals in the post or would there be a special ceremony?
Would the winning players recieve medals in the post or would there be a special ceremony?
Did Arteta jump ship knowing what might be coming up, and Pep to do the same?
All of this talk, and really UEFA and the FA just want to do something because they have to be seen to do something, they're still too scared to do anything too drastic and it will bascially amount to a slap on the wrist of a punishment (a year's CL ban does seem like a lot, but in the scheme of things is nothing, and £30m is one world class player to them). Taken them nearly a decade to do anything, so any action is better than nothing, but not going to get my hopes up.
The Astros definitely cheated, deserve all the criticism, and their actions are indefensible but to pretend they weren't already a really good to great team is disingenuous. Look at the stats of their key players before and after the scandal. The cheating just put them over the top.
When I mean established clubs; I am talking about European Football Clubs that have either a recent history of footballing success and/or have one of the biggest fanbases of any football club. So I include ourselves, Arsenal & the Milan Clubs in that catagory, despite our collective lack of sucess in the last 10 years or so.
By the way; the fact you mentioned how long it has been since Liverpool last won the League has reminded of one of the more disspointing aspects of their likely title win this season, the fact we can no longer mock them for their lack of league success.
They weren't better than the Rangers or Mariners, the following year they win the World Series and it's been recognized that they at least cheated in 2017 and 2018. I'm willing to say that like many teams they have great players but I won't call a team of cheats great because they weren't before the cheating and only really one the World Series where they definitely cheated. They were an above .500 team, I can recognize that.
What? We were talking about competitive advantage in regards to small and large markets. That's why I originally posted that.
And yes, the type of deception committed by City and the Astros are two completely different things, except they both cheated.
Another one completely missing the point, and then writing a load of analysis against the strawman. Whether FFP is good, bad, a cartel to protect the established clubs or a racist endeavour against oil nations doesn’t matter.
City agreed to conform to FFP, then didn’t, then cooked the books to make it appear like they did.
Either you fight FFP beforehand, or you takes your medicine when they find out.
Put it this way - if no one found out, they’d have no problem with FFP, would they? Because with their fake income, *they’re* part of the established elite and have the same pro-FFP stance as everyone else.
If the rules created with corrupt intentions (that benefit certain clubs over others), you cannot blame certain clubs for treating said rules with the same respect towards them as the rulemakers own respect towards the beautiful game itself. Likewise its more of a case that most club owners want the rules to be in place to cover up their own failures when it comes to investing in their own teams and/or lack of ambition. In contrast if you asked most football fans of any club (including United) if they want to see more ambition and willingness to invest into the club they support (from the owners of said club), the vast majority of them would say yes.
Investing in a club does not guarantee success (since it requires said money to be used wisely) and is far better regardless than taking money out of a club & mliking ones own fan base. The use of Performance Enhancing Drugs & Match-Fixing on the other hand does (if sucessful) gurantee success and thus is a lot worse for the sport than any sort of so called 'financial doping'
They've cultivated a good relationship with the newspapers over the years - their reporter hospitality is miles better than ours, plus whatever under the table stuff they might also do. They have a load of journalists in their corner to write pro-City articles and puff pieces, but Im not sure that will last forever; if they smell blood they’ll turn on them.
It’s indefensible. It’s very strange.
Don’t give a feck if you disagree with FFP. It’s the rule. They cheated the living shit out if it. Now face the consequences and suck it up you egg stained bastards. It’s funny as feck all this. Berties crying into their Bloo ketchup on Valentines night too.
You must not follow baseball or you just want to craft your own narrative. From 2016 to 2017 the Astros overhauled their lineup only keeping their key players (Altuve, Springer, Correa) and, more importantly, they added Verlander/Peacock and their ENTIRE pitching staff improved. That made a fairly good young team a great team. Period.
Yeah the Astros are cheaters, but do your homework next time.
My post was trying to explain why despite being a United fan; I am against City being punished for violating FFP and why I am against FFP in general.
I would agree however that if they where going to act against FFP (which they have done even if they pretended otherwise); they should have never agreed their peace deal with UEFA in the first place. Because not only did the deal undermine their attempts to establish City as a top european club (and I would argue enable the El Classico Clubs to monopolise the CL), considering the financial resources they have and legal case against FFP, they didn't need to agree to it in the first place.
One hopes they have learnt that lesson.
Strawman. Nobody said it was defensible. You guys are just grossly uninformed. You would get away with it if I wasn't actually from Houston and didn't follow the team but unfortunately I do.
It is stranger that you're engaging in a back and forth over something you have a base level knowledge about.
And 2017 is the year where they definitely cheated and stole signs. You see that's the problem that I have, you are basically using the year they started to cheat as the start of that great team while I'm acknoweledging that they cheated and won't call them great until they do it without cheating. I believe that my stance is reasonable. And what makes a great team is the depth not just the key players and these lesser player had an edge that they never should have had.
So you will excuse me but I'm not calling them a great team but I will give them all the credits that they deserve when they do it without cheating. Same thing with City.
Whatever. They needed to cheat to win the World Series. Manfred is a wimp who won’t take it away but in everyone else’s eyes it’s not their title.
I promise no more back and forth with you , and hope there is another thread where I’ll be in agreement with you instead of stuff like this. Beat Chelsea.
Your stance has no nuance and ignores evidence. You're better than this but you, like everyone else, are entitled to your stance, however uninformed it may be.
It depends how big the points deduction is. In the two relevant seasons when we were runners up, the gap between City and Liverpool was only a point or two. In the year United were runners up (under Mourinho), the gap was huge. If the Premier League deduct, ooh let's say 5 points, that would be enough to give Liverpool two titles, but United none.Yeah. Agree, very unlikely to happen. But if PL gives point deduction for all titles City won then United too might get their 21st for the season they were 2nd in the league under Mourinho
I'm not sure whether the Premier League authorities will look into City's title win under Mancini, so that might be a different story.
You're entitled to your opinion. Cheers.