4-Way v2 - QF: Zlatan vs harms

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

Team Zlatan

Change of formation going into this round. Changed the striker as I think Lewandowski is better at holding up the player and bringing the wide forwards villa and Rahn into the game. And maybe even a more clinical finisher than aguerro. I also think Rahn would do a better job than aguerro as a wide forward so unfortunately for the Argentinian he’s left at home.

Kaka playing behind these can pick his through balls all match with ease with the runs the forwards are known for making.

neeskens will be playing more of a b2b role with Albertini sitting and controlling the play and tempo.

defence and keeper stays the same.. solid!

Team harms

I continue to use Cruyff’s diamond, a formation that he loved so dearly, that will allow him the most freedom to dominate the game. He had played in such a diamond at Ajax and also used is as a manager at both Ajax and Barcelona.



The main idea is, of course, to keep possession and to bypass the opposition’s press by using passing triangles. This is not a tiki-taka side, but this is definitely a possession-oriented side that is going to play in a very direct style — the references I have in mind are the Ajax side of the early 70’s and the Dream Team. Boniek and Conti are stretching the pitch wide, but once they have the ball and only one opponent in front of them, they do cut inside (look at Sane at City). Monstrous Riva is going to occupy Nesta for the whole game — you can’t allow a man of his talents to roam around freely and Abidal won’t have it in him to close him down. So, as I said, I don’t see Zlatan winning this — especially since this particular version of a diamond was created specifically to counter 4-4-2.

How can I go further without posting anything about this beautiful bastard!


Zlatan’s team isn’t really suited to exploit my wings — by definition the most exposed area in a diamond, with Masopust/Boniek and Seedorf/Conti helping out my wide center backs. And centrally, everything is controlled by Bobby Moore — in neither of his diamonds did Cruyff have a center back as dominant and as commanding.

My favourite (quelle surprise!) game of Moore, where he showed exactly the performance that I want to see from him now:

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Zlatan 7 @harms All the best!

 

[Šjor Bepo]

still the same feelings about harms team, its lovely but tactically(defensive wise) it doesnt work. Saying that he should win this easily, more quality in the team and zlatan side lacks proper width to exploit his weak point.

 

[harms]

still the same feelings about harms team, its lovely but tactically(defensive wise) it doesnt work. Saying that he should win this easily, more quality in the team and zlatan side lacks proper width to exploit his weak point.

There’s a lot of upgrades defensively on Ajax from 1995 — Bossis, Puyol, especially Moore, Conti, Boniek are all better than their 1995 counterparts. Busquets can drop back, so can both Seedorf & Masopust (to full back positions) — and there isn’t some physical number 9 to exploit Busquets’ physicality.

I obviously hoped for this team to be a little different at this point, but what can you do.

 

[Zlatan 7]

This is going to fun, ha.
I just don’t get 3 at the back. They’re surely going to be out numbered when I attack, once lewa occupies Moore there’s going to be space everywhere for Kaka and co to exploit

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Zlatan tactical set up gives him advantage but harms has advantage in player quality.

 

[P-Nut]

Kaka and Cruyff should have loads of space in this game.

Kaka I feel is the opposite of what Busquets would want to face in an AM. His quick feet and dribbling style would cause him all sorts of problems.

Cruyff on the other side is mostly going to be against Albertini if he stays central and that's a big mismatch as well. Cruyff is obviously the much better player than Kaka so that would likely decide the match for me.

Will wait to see some discussion before voting though

 

[harms]

I just don’t get 3 at the back. They’re surely going to be out numbered when I attack, once lewa occupies Moore there’s going to be space everywhere for Kaka and co to exploit

That's why this formation had worked before. I have wingers, both of whom are capable of dropping very deep (Conti even played a right winger in a formation without a real right back); I have Masopust and Seedorf who are very adept to defending inside channels; and I have Busquets who has tons of experience in dropping deeper. Moore is going to face your physical striker and there's no one who is going to expose Busquets' physicality other than him.

Not all of those things are happening simultaneously by the way.

 

[Zlatan 7]

That's why this formation had worked before. I have wingers, both of whom are capable of dropping very deep (Conti even played a right winger in a formation without a real right back); I have Masopust and Seedorf who are very adept to defending inside channels; and I have Busquets who has tons of experience in dropping deeper. Moore is going to face your physical striker and there's no one who is going to expose Busquets' physicality other than him.

Not all of those things are happening simultaneously by the way.

I am sure busquets will get no where near Kaka, he is not a working defensive midfielder, he’ll intercept passes and break up play but get no where near Kaka.

I just think this formation has worked because It was a well oiled machine playing it, every player knew exact where to go and where to fill if someone else moved.
I just don’t get that in a draft as players playing in a one off team, unless we pretend your draft team has been together years and know each other and tactics inside out. If that’s the case I concede. But in a one off game starting with 3 defenders, I can’t see past that

 

[harms]

I am sure busquets will get no where near Kaka, he is not a working defensive midfielder, he’ll intercept passes and break up play but get no where near Kaka.

I just think this formation has worked because It was a well oiled machine playing it, every player knew exact where to go and where to fill if someone else moved.
I just don’t get that in a draft as players playing in a one off team, unless we pretend your draft team has been together years and know each other and tactics inside out. If that’s the case I concede. But in a one off game starting with 3 defenders, I can’t see past that

Every player I have is playing either in their best role, or in a role that they’ve performed at quite often. They have the best ever on-field organizer in Cruyff, as well as Busquets, Moore & Bossis. I’d say that there’s a good chance of it working.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Every player I have is playing either in their best role, or in a role that they’ve performed at quite often. They have the best ever on-field organizer in Cruyff, as well as Busquets, Moore & Bossis. I’d say that there’s a good chance of it working.

Puyol, Moore and Bossis all played in a back 3?

 

[Zlatan 7]

From what I can see, you’ve got 2 centre backs, a left back, busquets a defensive midfielder that that’s not much of a tackler, I thought seedorf was more attacking than defensive, 2 wingers and defenders in one? And then cryuff supposedly organising it all from upfront.

 

[harms]

Puyol, Moore and Bossis all played in a back 3?

Not sure about Moore (that's unlikely) but Bossis and Puyol — sure. Moore's role here is more of a complete center back in a back 4 than that of a sweeper in a back three.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Not sure about Moore (that's unlikely) but Bossis and Puyol — sure. Moore's role here is more of a complete center back in a back 4 than that of a sweeper in a back three.

Evidence of puyol and Bossis in a back 3? I’d like to see that. And I mean a back 3 that has fullbacks, not wingers who are going to defend

 

[harms]

From what I can see, you’ve got 2 centre backs, a left back, busquets a defensive midfielder that that’s not much of a tackler, I thought seedorf was more attacking than defensive, 2 wingers and defenders in one? And then cryuff supposedly organising it all from upfront.

Didn't stop what, Rio, Scirea, Van Dijk etc.?

 

[harms]

Evidence of puyol and Bossis in a back 3? I’d like to see that. And I mean a back 3 that has fullbacks, not wingers who are going to defend

There aren't any ready-made formations for the teams that Bossis had played in but he had performed with insane ease in multiple different positions (often in the same game) and he had moved centrally after Amoros was disqualified until the very end of the 1984 tournament. Battiston, Bossis and Domergue all often ventured forward to compensate for le carre magique's relative width issues, and he seamlessly filled in the gap, whenever it was forward, on the left, centrally or on the right. Bossis is really one of the most insanely intelligent and versatile players that you'll ever meet. You have Cuccureddu who has the same ability, but Bossis was also a better player.

 

[Zlatan 7]

FairPlay, good Barca graphic and Bossis explanation. Thanks

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

That's a very unique set of circumstances in a very unique team. I doubt your setup is comparable to get same results.

 

[Zlatan 7]

That’s what I was trying to get at but, I concede it does show puyol playing in that similar setup

 

[Šjor Bepo]

out of all the players on this pitch you guys question Puyol role? Id say thats his best role even if he never played it and im sure he did.

 

[Fenômeno]

Pretty sure Puyol played RB too, or am I imagining things.

 

[Zlatan 7]

I’m not questioning the role of puyol as an individual. It was more the just 3 defenders and how the rest of the teams tactics and players covered for that

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I’m not questioning the role of puyol as an individual. It was more the just 3 defenders and how the rest of the teams tactics and players covered for that

how are you going to exploit his narrow defence? you have a static striker, two "wide" attackers that play the inside game, Abidal who at best is a balanced fullback, Neeskens that will have his hands full in the middle to even think about going wide and then there is that Cuckooachoo fella who would need to be a peak Cafu at this point to change the result of the game.

 

[Zlatan 7]

how are you going to exploit his narrow defence? you have a static striker, two "wide" attackers that play the inside game, Abidal who at best is a balanced fullback, Neeskens that will have his hands full in the middle to even think about going wide and then there is that Cuckooachoo fella who would need to be a peak Cafu at this point to change the result of the game.

Knew I should have started Chedric

 

[Zlatan 7]

How exposed your defence / formation is without using giant head picture graphics to fill the space and make your defence look full

 

[Moby]

 

[Zlatan 7]

 

[Himannv]

Kaka and Cruyff should have loads of space in this game.

Kaka I feel is the opposite of what Busquets would want to face in an AM. His quick feet and dribbling style would cause him all sorts of problems.

Cruyff on the other side is mostly going to be against Albertini if he stays central and that's a big mismatch as well. Cruyff is obviously the much better player than Kaka so that would likely decide the match for me.

Will wait to see some discussion before voting though

Agree with this view. Haven't seen enough discussion on how each team plans to stop these two players.

Cruyff is obviously the better player, but the extra CB might make a difference. No such obvious option exists to stop peak Kaka running into spaces while the forwards engage the three man defence.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Agree with this view. Haven't seen enough discussion on how each team plans to stop these two players.

Cruyff is obviously the better player, but the extra CB might make a difference. No such obvious option exists to stop peak Kaka running into spaces while the forwards engage the three man defence.

Quite simple, there’s no one to stop Kaka. Busquets may intercept a pass or two or Moore may leave lewa for a minute, but other than that. I can’t see anyone there

 

[Zlatan 7]

how are you going to exploit his narrow defence? you have a static striker, two "wide" attackers that play the inside game, Abidal who at best is a balanced fullback, Neeskens that will have his hands full in the middle to even think about going wide and then there is that Cuckooachoo fella who would need to be a peak Cafu at this point to change the result of the game.

Did you even watch Munich the other night? Or at all? What do you mean lewa is static, he came deep and run channels all night.
I’d love to see him drag Moore wide and just leave an open sea for Kaka towards goal

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Did you even watch Munich the other night? Or at all? What do you mean lewa is static, he came deep and run channels all night.
I’d love to see him drag Moore wide and just leave an open sea for Kaka towards goal

What i meant is he wont drift wide like Villa/Elkjaer/suarez would, obviously he wont stand whole game but his movements are mostly in central areas.

 

[Moby]

Yeah, Busquets is a bad fit for the peak Kaka who was a physical freak in terms of his pace and power, and was one of the best counter attacking threats you can imagine. Getting this much space when he drives forward would be deadly, and Lewa is an excellent partner to have on counters.

Having great two-way players like Boniek, Masopust, Seedorf and Conti could mitigate that to some extent but it is still a very risky strategy.

On the other hand though, I see similar freedom for Cruyff with Neeskens and Albertini having their hands full with the likes of Masopust and Seedorf, and that would be pretty deadly as well of course.

Hopefully Riva is upgraded soon, who sticks out like a sore thumb in this team.

 

[Zlatan 7]

What i meant is he wont drift wide like Villa/Elkjaer/suarez would, obviously he wont stand whole game but his movements are mostly in central areas.

Right, so when he came deep to the half way line, won the header then made a wide run and crossed in for a goal. That was a one off?

 

[Zlatan 7]

What i meant is he wont drift wide like Villa/Elkjaer/suarez would, obviously he wont stand whole game but his movements are mostly in central areas.

You also previously accused villa of playing narrow and now you’re saying he drifts wide?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Right, so when he came deep to the half way line, won the header then made a wide run and crossed in for a goal. That was a one off?

Cant be bothered, not even a my game...
Lets agree to disagree

 

[Šjor Bepo]

You also previously accused villa of playing narrow and now you’re saying he drifts wide?

Im talking about Villa as a striker.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Yeah, Busquets is a bad fit for the peak Kaka who was a physical freak in terms of his pace and power, and was one of the best counter attacking threats you can imagine. Getting this much space when he drives forward would be deadly, and Lewa is an excellent partner to have on counters.

Having great two-way players like Boniek, Masopust, Seedorf and Conti could mitigate that to some extent but it is still a very risky strategy.

On the other hand though, I see similar freedom for Cruyff with Neeskens and Albertini having their hands full with the likes of Masopust and Seedorf, and that would be pretty deadly as well of course.

Hopefully Riva is upgraded soon, who sticks out like a sore thumb in this team.

that’s fair, but harms said these would be defending channels and that’s what covers his 3 man defence. So when these are occupying neeskens and Albertini? Who exactly is going to be helping the 3 defenders when I break with Kaka,villa, lewa. It’s just ridiculous

 

[Zlatan 7]

Cant be bothered, not even a my game...
Lets agree to disagree

Don’t be bothered then.

 

[Moby]

that’s fair, but harms said these would be defending channels and that’s what covers his 3 man defence. So when these are occupying neeskens and Albertini? Who exactly is going to be helping the 3 defenders when I break with Kaka,villa, lewa. It’s just ridiculous

It's basically the two different phases of when you are attacking and when he's attacking.

Masopust and Seedorft can drop deep and defend when you are attacking and help in reducing the space a fair bit but like I said it depends on how much time they get after losing the ball. If you team gets enough fast breaks going in a direct manner getting Kaka on the ball straight away and have him run at Busquets before help can arrive then it's big trouble. If you give them enough time to track back, then it would be manageable to an extent, but still a big threat.

But of course when his team is attacking, both Masopust and Seedorf would be pretty much a part of the midfield battle and especially Neeskens will need to mark Masopust, and contain his deadly forward dribbling and direct running. In which case the extra body harms has in attack at the cost of having one less in defense would give him that advantage and that being Cruyff, it would have a big impact on the game.

 

[Zlatan 7]

It's basically the two different phases of when you are attacking and when he's attacking.

Masopust and Seedorft can drop deep and defend when you are attacking and help in reducing the space a fair bit but like I said it depends on how much time they get after losing the ball. If you team gets enough fast breaks going in a direct manner getting Kaka on the ball straight away and have him run at Busquets before help can arrive then it's big trouble. If you give them enough time to track back, then it would be manageable to an extent, but still a big threat.

But of course when his team is attacking, both Masopust and Seedorf would be pretty much a part of the midfield battle and especially Neeskens will need to mark Masopust, and contain his deadly forward dribbling and direct running. In which case the extra body harms has in attack at the cost of having one less in defense would give him that advantage and that being Cruyff, it would have a big impact on the game.

Yes, I get all that. I meant on the break while seedorf and Masopust were caught up field

thanks for your input and explanation though. And done with out crying (sjor)