Winston Churchill

[sammsky1]

Millions? Please show me where millions have found out today the things that you say they never knew about him. Do you believe that millions read your posts on her sammsky? Wow, that's some kind of following you have there sir.

Have you ventured into news media yet?

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Just a few scribbles is all it took to spark a massive international debate involving millions and millions to reappraise the propaganda that was created about Winston Churchill. He is getting slammed and is only supported by other right wing racists and hooligans, loons and older Brits who’ve been so blinded by propaganda, denying it would destroy their entire identity. I'd love to know 66 year old Nina is going to do.

Job done I’d say. By millions. And it’s only just a start. A whole new generation people now know different and they will set the policies and create British culture into the future.

And as @MrPooni stated, I also dont care for the racists who need massaging to ‘bring them along’ for all the truth to be known.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Instead of removing the statues why not paint them rainbow colours or something so that whenever people look up and see they will know that this was a slave trader and now he's being painted as that and we want it known that what he did is not acceptable anymore.

I'll bet most of the people who walked past Colston had no clue who he was or cared to know.

But the removal of that statue has enlightened hell of a lot more people.

Now people want to know and are starting to care to know I’d take that as a massive win.

Ignorance is being challenged openly.

 

[sammsky1]

Instead of removing the statues why not paint them rainbow colours or something so that whenever people look up and see they will know that this was a slave trader and now he's being painted as that and we want it known that what he did is not acceptable anymore.

I'll bet most of the people who walked past Colston had no clue who he was or cared to know.

This is a very good point, especially in a aspirational open society. Removing something from view airbrushes out important reflective generational learning.

Churchill did a thing amazing for his nation and he also did many other heinous things too. He was critical person in shaping this nation in many ways, good and bad, and he should be presented in his entirety .

 

[neverdie]

Ok. With a bit of digging, I’ve not been able to find any reference to Churchill in Sen’s seminal work on the famine, or in the article by Arima Mishra you’ve linked to. It appears that Davis’ research has concentrated on Victorian-era famines, not WW2. And I think it’s clear enough from the excerpt I’ve posted above that Toye does not blame Churchill for “directly causing” the famine, but certainly faults him for his response. That leaves Tharoor, who appears to depend heavily on a book called Churchill’s Secret War by Madhusree Mukerjee (neither are professional historians or economists). From this review and her response it appears she does attempt to portray Churchill’s actions as “one primary cause” of the famine. It’s interesting to read of her approval of Tauger (linked to above) and dispute with Sen, who writes that “in her single-minded, if understandable, attempt to nail down Churchill, she ends up absolving British imperial policy of confusion and callousness, which had disastrous consequences.”

So yeah, I’m still not seeing any kind of consensus from among the scholars you’ve mentioned. Certainly not enough to automatically associate those who differ from your own take on it with cynical motives. But I’ve certainly learned something about what is an interesting (and seemingly ongoing) debate.

You can't expect to use highly nuanced academic rigour in this thread (and actual historical sources!).

 

[Zlatan 7]

Have you ventured into news media yet?

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Just a few scribbles is all it took to spark a massive international debate involving millions and millions re reappraise the propaganda that was created about Winston Churchill. He is getting slammed and is only supported by other right wing racists and hooligans, loons and older Brits who’ve been so blinded by propaganda, denying it would destroy their entire identity. I'd love to know 66 year old Nina is going to do.

A whole new world of young people now know different and they will set the policies and create British culture into the future.

Job done I’d say. By millions. And it’s only just a start.

And as @MrPooni stated, I also dont care for the racists who need massaging to ‘bring them along’ for all the truth to be known.

I can only think no one has replied to this because so many people have you on ignore by now.

the only people who support Churchill are right wing racists, hooligans, loons and old folk? Really? what do you mean by support?

 

[sammsky1]

I can only think no one has replied to this because so many people have you on ignore by now.

the only people who support Churchill are right wing racists, hooligans, loons and old folk? Really? what do you mean by support?

Which one are you? Own up.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Which one are you? Own up.

Sammsky, before I reply to you already insinuating I’m all four of those it would be kind of you to answer my question of what you mean by support

 

[11101]

Have you ventured into news media yet?

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Just a few scribbles is all it took to spark a massive international debate involving millions and millions re reappraise the propaganda that was created about Winston Churchill. He is getting slammed and is only supported by other right wing racists and hooligans, loons and older Brits who’ve been so blinded by propaganda, denying it would destroy their entire identity. I'd love to know 66 year old Nina is going to do.

A whole new world of young people now know different and they will set the policies and create British culture into the future.

Job done I’d say. By millions. And it’s only just a start.

And as @MrPooni stated, I also dont care for the racists who need massaging to ‘bring them along’ for all the truth to be known.

That's exactly the kind of nonsense that had the Labour party scratching their head when Jeremy Corbyn led them to their worst result in 85 years. Simply shouting louder doesn't mean you win, it means you have no idea what's going on around you.

 

[fergies coat]

Have you ventured into news media yet?

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Just a few scribbles is all it took to spark a massive international debate involving millions and millions re reappraise the propaganda that was created about Winston Churchill. He is getting slammed and is only supported by other right wing racists and hooligans, loons and older Brits who’ve been so blinded by propaganda, denying it would destroy their entire identity. I'd love to know 66 year old Nina is going to do.

A whole new world of young people now know different and they will set the policies and create British culture into the future.

Job done I’d say. By millions. And it’s only just a start.

And as @MrPooni stated, I also dont care for the racists who need massaging to ‘bring them along’ for all the truth to be known.

Yeah lets just rip everything down, people know Churchill wasn't a Saint, but he was the right man at the right time.

Who knows how many more people Hitler would of killed if he wasn't fighting on two fronts.

If they try and pull this down they will at lose lot of public support. Its getting ridiculous.

 

[Kopral Jono]

Return of stolen goods, including gold & diamonds worn by the royal family and used to decorate buckingham palace - and any other royal estates.
A more balanced recount of the Empirical history, and what conditions slaves & colonies were put under
Cancellation of colonial tax treaties that former colonies still pay
Destroy all statues that glorify slave owners



In all my years at school, the only time we talked about colonial history (beyond Churchill & the war) was having to design a poster for a 'slave auction', with descriptive adjectives such as 'strong', 'powerful', 'hard worker'.
Not only is that whitewashed, it's a flat out denial of the true crimes committed.

Jesus, bolded makes for grim reading. Imagine as a country being colonised for ages and still having to pay tax to your former colonisers. I guess it just goes to show that there's still a long, long way to go.

 

[sammsky1]

Yeah lets just rip everything down, people know Churchill wasn't a Saint, but he was the right man at the right time.

Who knows how many more people Hitler would of killed if he wasn't fighting on two fronts.

If they try and pull this down they will at lose lot of public support. Its getting ridiculous.

Not many before last weekend. Ignored in school and even university syllabus. Made a movie and airbrushed it all out. I agree, it was beyond ridiculous.

But they do know now. We'll let that play out now for next few years and see where we end up

 

[Cascarino]

Next time any white male is tempted to tell another non white British person "If you don't like it here, leave" here's a heads up on what you'll look like.

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There was an incident fairly recently in Wales where some white person told a lady (I believe she was wearing a hijab) to stop speaking foreign muck. She was speaking Welsh.

Have you ventured into news media yet?

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wtf is up with that Nina person


‘ If the statues go, the Mosques go too - Sign the Petition! http://chng.it/GyJvXSZQ via
@UKChange
Please sign The Petition MOSQUES REMOVED IF OUR STATUES ARE TORN DOWN’

How the feck have they gotten Mosques involved now

 

[hobbers]

Interesting thread but it begs the questions: exactly how responsible are we for the actions of our ancestors? And is that a fair stick to beat people with?

Fortunately those questions have easy answers: We're not, and no.

 

[RedTiger]

1

There was an incident fairly recently in Wales where some white person told a lady (I believe she was wearing a hijab) to stop speaking foreign muck. She was speaking Welsh.




wtf is up with that Nina person


‘ If the statues go, the Mosques go too - Sign the Petition! http://chng.it/GyJvXSZQ via
@UKChange
Please sign The Petition MOSQUES REMOVED IF OUR STATUES ARE TORN DOWN’

How the feck have they gotten Mosques involved now

Ah man it's those bloody Muslims again!

 

[Sied]

Not that many before last weekend. Ignored in school and even university syllabus. Made a movie and airbrushed it all out . I agree, it was beyond ridiculous.

But they do know now. We'll let that play out now for next few years and see where we end up

Where are you expecting it to end up? Because I'd wager that most people have learnt the dark side to Churchill's history in the last few days, and will continue with their lives unaffected within the next few.

 

[fergies coat]

1

Ah man it's those bloody Muslims again!

I know minding thier own business and getting dragged into it.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Which one are you? Own up.

I don’t believe this is either fair or appropriate.

Someone can support Churchill as a leader without being one of the above.

I for example understand the role he played in Britain’s success during the war. I think it’s commendable though not hero worthy because of his other deeds.

 

[Buchan]

Fortunately those questions have easy answers: We're not, and no.

I agree, for what it’s worth.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

How the feck have they gotten Mosques involved now

Probably because Mohammed had slaves and the history of the Islamic slave trade.

 

[RedTiger]

Probably because Mohammed had slaves and the history of the Islamic slave trade.

Then we'll just have to tear down all the roman stuff as well as anything commentating vikings

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Then we'll just have to tear down all the roman stuff as well as anything commentating vikings

I don’t know the full history but didn’t the Islamic slave trade last into the 20th century, I think SA abolished slavery in the 1960s? Muslim slave traders were also involved in the Atlantic slave trade. Didn’t Mohammed allow slavery in his teachings?

 

[Cascarino]

Probably because Mohammed had slaves and the history of the Islamic slave trade.

That doesn’t make any sense. I know the history of Islam, but if you take that angle then you’ll have t take down every church because the bible was used to justify the Atlantic slave trade. It’s barefaced Islamophobia because Nina and her gang (the ‘I put a flag in my Twitter username to let everyone know I’m a moron’ group) are having a hissy fit and lashed out at a demographic they don’t like.

 

[RedTiger]

I don’t know the full history but didn’t the Islamic slave trade last into the 20th century, I think SA abolished slavery in the 1960s? Muslim slave traders were also involved in the Atlantic slave trade. Didn’t Mohammed allow slavery in his teachings?

He did allow it. He allowed it on the understanding that it's better to not have slaves and any slave who becomes a Muslim must be freed, which by 7th century standards was basically bordering on communism. The other difference between the 7th century slavers was that quite uniquely Muslim slaves had upward mobility which is how Egypt, Turkey, India and a few other medieval empires managed to be ruled by the descendents of slaves.

Anyway that's neither here nor there because by modern world-wide standards of ijma(public consensus) slavery is considered very bad.

Now in answer to your point as to why muslims have been dragged into this with right-wingers calling for the demolition of mosques, it's because to the right-wingers Muslims and POC are all the same ie they are not WASPs. So if BLM is calling for the removal of Churchill's statue then obviously the Muslims have to pay the price.

 

[2cents]

I quite like this (from a professor of empire at Queen Mary U):

 

[sammsky1]

He did allow it. He allowed it on the understanding that it's better to not have slaves and any slave who becomes a Muslim must be freed, which by 7th century standards was basically bordering on communism. The other difference between the 7th century slavers was that quite uniquely Muslim slaves had upward mobility which is how Egypt, Turkey, India and a few other medieval empires managed to be ruled by the descendents of slaves.

Anyway that's neither here nor there because by modern world-wide standards of ijma(public consensus) slavery is considered very bad.

Now in answer to your point as to why muslims have been dragged into this with right-wingers calling for the demolition of mosques, it's because to the right-wingers Muslims and POC are all the same ie they are not WASPs. So if BLM is calling for the removal of Churchill's statue then obviously the Muslims have to pay the price.

It makes no sense.

Mosques are built and used as houses of God, and certainly not the house of Muhammed which as a concept, can't even exist in Islam. Muhammed was simply the first muslim, and his later life acts are used as an example for Muslims to follow.

There is not one single UK mosque that was built using the income from slave trading. But many churches built during the empire era were. (I'm not suggesting churches be removed).

It's up to Saudi Arabia whether they take down the mosques in Quba and Medina which Muhammed founded, perhaps using funds gained from his slave business.

This is just a deflective attempt by Tommy Robinson to pivot Islam into the current slave statue discussion so he can find a relevant platform for him, now being parroted out by his fans. But it's so illogical and moronic, well, it gave me a headache and I don't really know what else to say. Again, anyone sympathising with it should know they side on the side of Tommy Robinson.

Or perhaps someone can explain to me otherwise.

 

[TheReligion]

I think taking down statutes/landmarks that eulogise slavery is brilliant.

I think taking down statutes/landmarks because someone's parents or grandfather was involved in slavery is daft.

 

[RedTiger]

I think taking down statutes/landmarks that eulogise slavery is brilliant.

I think taking down statutes/landmarks because someone's parents or grandfather was involved in slavery is daft.

I'm ok with statues staying up as long as the history of the person is clearly stated.

 

[sammsky1]

I'm ok with statues staying up as long as the history of the person is clearly stated.

I like @Grinner suggestion that they stay up but are painted an agreed colour that signifies their elite skills is slavery.

 

[sullydnl]

Statues in general are overrated. There's zero nuance to them and they generally look shit.

Except for this statue of Columbo, which should be in every country.

 

[horsechoker]

Statues in general are overrated. There's zero nuance to them and they generally look shit.

Except for this statue of Columbo, which should be in every country.

Columbo was a slave trader?

 

[fergies coat]

Columbo was a slave trader?

You mean columbus.

 

[2cents]

You mean columbus.

Look you have to walk in Columbus' shoes
to see what he went through.

People thought the world was flat,
for crying out loud.

Then he lands on an island with a bunch of naked savages on it. That took a lot of guts.

You ever been to Florida? The heat? And those bugs?

 

[horsechoker]

You mean columbus.

Columbus was a TV detective?

 

[BenitoSTARR]

I like @Grinner suggestion that they stay up but are painted an agreed colour that signifies their elite skills is slavery.

Do we not feel a museum is more appropriate?

 

[fergies coat]

Columbus was a TV detective?

Columbo was a TV detective. Columbus discovered America.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Statues in general are overrated. There's zero nuance to them and they generally look shit.

Except for this statue of Columbo, which should be in every country.

That’s truly exceptional. Especially considering the responses belowHalf of which seem to be serious.

When I go to a different country I see statues. They could be Racist Generals or Pan-Sexual Gender Neutral Porn-Stars. They’re just there.

People are fcuking around and fighting over some temporary shit that then know nothing about.

Statues are accepted as ‘nice’ because they are. I was born and raised in London but you could have changed all but the Hat on Nelson’s column every week for my lifetime and I would never have noticed.

None of this shit matters. Every statue should be Columbo.

 

[SteveJ]

Is that outside Stamford Bridge?

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Do you not think, that's part of the problem?
Also, just because nobody else has done it, shouldn't be a reason not to do it. Especially since so many are keen to stress how welcoming, inviting and not racist this country is - there shouldn't be an issue confronting the truth.

Britains darker 'past' isn't even as old as some are suggesting. My dad was born under colonial rule from the Brits - and i'm from the first African country that gained independance from the Brits.
British tax payers were paying the families of slave owners money for lost 'property' (read: slaves) up to 2015.
Windrush residents are still alive etc.

There's not much 'past' about it, it's very much present.

To play the uncomfortable middle ground...

(while being quite happy for statues, monuments and street names to get pulled down or changed inside 48 hours)

I think there are a lot of 50-100 year old people that see war and famine and suffering all over the world. They’ve watched Children in Need and sang and bought Feed the World and tried to be good and responsible and just right of centre....

And now they see vandalism of what seemed innocent. Invisible. They see people asking them to criticise Churchill, their totem to hold up as to why their grandparents were sad and why some are missing.

These people don’t know Twitter. They don’t know google across 50 tabs in a working day. They’ve just shifted from physical maps to TomTom and that £250 they spent a decade ago is replaced by GoogleMaps in one quarter that time. Then Waze replaces it in a quarter that time.

The world is moving so fast and we gave a noisy section of society a platform to comment. Then we switched it. Then again. And again.

There’s a whole 3+ generation spread of people that thought they were doing the right thing. Then Adjusted. Then again. Their software updates can’t keep up.

So they resist. That’s all they can do. Many seem to know it’s wrong to, but there’s no more juice in the fruit.

I’ve seen it. I’m sure you have to.

I wish these pushes for forward motion could ignore the noise and just focus on the people that are driving those changes forward. The rest will follow but they’ll create a fuss.

The fuss is not objection. It’s fear. It’s fear that’s manifested from perceived criticism.

 

[sammsky1]

Do we not feel a museum is more appropriate?

If it's to have true use as an educational tool, then I'd prefer they remain in public. Include 2 lines on the plinth: his virtue (if there was one beyond being rich), and his identity as a slave trader, also commented by statue being painted an agreed colour. It should act as a cautionary reminder.

In reality a museum is a fudge to appease the far right from losing face. Which has merit. Perhaps Tommy Robinson and his ilk would go to the museum every week to pay their respects, though I doubt anyone else would.

I actually see this episode as a massive opportunity. If Britain could present these figures from its past more accurately, in a way that frees us from the past idea of nation and truly inspires all of Britain's multicultural population to create its very best post Brexit identity. It could be really really powerful.

Sadly, Boris and his Brexit Cabinet don't have the intellect or wit to pull that off, and anyhow, they hoodwinked the Brexit class with promises of a new version of Rule Britannia, which is impossible to deliver. What a mess!

 

[horsechoker]

Columbo was a TV detective. Columbus discovered America.

Only one of those sentences is true.