Winston Churchill

2cents

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Btw, what’s your opinion of Churchill? Evil racist bastard or national hero? I’d guess it’s probably somewhere in between..
I don’t really think your framing is particularly useful here, it’s reflective of what historians call the “balance sheet” approach where we’re expected to weigh the ‘good’ against the ‘bad’ and conclude on that basis on whether a person/institution was a positive or negative force in history - this approach is unhelpful, as it obscures what was really going on. So for example, the British Empire is often praised for building India’s vast rail network - it’s a regular point on the ‘plus’ side of the balance sheet. Yet the trains were built in order to exploit India’s wealth, to transport resources from remote regions to British built ports such as Bombay and Madras. The same can be said for ‘gifts’ of the British such as the legal system and the English language - they were all introduced to India in order to further the interests of the Empire, which was itself intended to benefit Britain first and foremost (or you might say a particular class of British people). Checking them off on a balance sheet tells us none of this (btw I’d argue the same against those who enjoy compiling lists of the ‘evils’ of empire).

So I’d reject the adjectives you’ve chosen as a useful way to understand the man, and I don’t believe it necessary to think of alternative, more complex approaches as a neutral, fence-sitting middle ground.

WW2 is not my field, and I’d be hesitant to say anything about post-1925 Churchill. My field overlaps in many ways with parts of his career before that time, though I’m no expert on the man himself. In terms of the men who staffed the Empire, he was fairly unremarkable. I would say he failed abysmally to transcend the racially-driven worldview held by so many of his peers. In fact I’d argue his racist outlook is more explicitly expressed in his early writings than many of those peers. And contrary to what some in this thread seem to believe, there were men equally committed to the glory of Britain as Churchill who were capable of understanding Britain’s imperial mission in different (i.e. largely non-racial) terms. He was capable - up to a point - of empathy with some non-European subjects he encountered, even enemies. And he was undeniably a gifted writer (although many of his peers were too) with some interesting insights on the world he lived in. That’s about all I can say.
 

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I don’t really think your framing is particularly useful here, it’s reflective of what historians call the “balance sheet” approach where we’re expected to weigh the ‘good’ against the ‘bad’ and conclude on that basis on whether a person/institution was a positive or negative force in history - this approach is unhelpful, as it obscures what was really going on. So for example, the British Empire is often praised for building India’s vast rail network - it’s a regular point on the ‘plus’ side of the balance sheet. Yet the trains were built in order to exploit India’s wealth, to transport resources from remote regions to British built ports such as Bombay and Madras. The same can be said for ‘gifts’ of the British such as the legal system and the English language - they were all introduced to India in order to further the interests of the Empire, which was itself intended to benefit Britain first and foremost (or you might say a particular class of British people). Checking them off on a balance sheet tells us none of this (btw I’d argue the same against those who enjoy compiling lists of the ‘evils’ of empire).

So I’d reject the adjectives you’ve chosen as a useful way to understand the man, and I don’t believe it necessary to think of alternative, more complex approaches as a neutral, fence-sitting middle ground.

WW2 is not my field, and I’d be hesitant to say anything about post-1925 Churchill. My field overlaps in many ways with parts of his career before that time, though I’m no expert on the man himself. In terms of the men who staffed the Empire, he was fairly unremarkable. I would say he failed abysmally to transcend the racially-driven worldview held by so many of his peers. In fact I’d argue his racist outlook is more explicitly expressed in his early writings than many of those peers. And contrary to what some in this thread seem to believe, there were men equally committed to the glory of Britain as Churchill who were capable of understanding Britain’s imperial mission in different (i.e. largely non-racial) terms. He was capable - up to a point - of empathy with some non-European subjects he encountered, even enemies. And he was undeniably a gifted writer (although many of his peers were too) with some interesting insights on the world he lived in. That’s about all I can say.
Sorry I'm only looking for a Evil racist bastard or national hero answer.

 

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You can feel offended by all means but someone doing an offence act doesn't result in them being sub human imo.

Sub human whatever that really means should be carefully used. Nazism, colonialism, Judd Apatow movies, Stalinism, all of these things are what I would call sub human and really even then I would be concerned because once you label something sub human you basically cut off any reason to understand how someone could believe or act in this way. It's an easy get out clause(Plus there's a very long and awful history of the state labeling certain groups of people sub human)

As for anything goes, why can't someone vandalize a memorial like the cenotaph ? Or why does it make them sub human ? No one is actually getting hurt, no one has been attacked, what has actual happened a part from paint going onto some government owned rock ?

Ok both of us might find it offensive but who are we to tell anyone what to be offended by, right ?
Oh come on... You know I didn't mean it in that sense, it's a bloody common phrase and almost nobody uses it in the form of a crazed Nazi.

I wonder what poor Vera Lynn, RIP, would think about the actions of these people disrespecting a monument designed to remember those that died to protect the very freedom they are benefiting from.

Trying to find any sort of acceptance to that sort of disrespectful behaviour and permitting people to inflict upset to those who lost family to war is in incredibly unusual hill to choose to die on.
 
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RUCK4444

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I don’t really think your framing is particularly useful here, it’s reflective of what historians call the “balance sheet” approach where we’re expected to weigh the ‘good’ against the ‘bad’ and conclude on that basis on whether a person/institution was a positive or negative force in history - this approach is unhelpful, as it obscures what was really going on. So for example, the British Empire is often praised for building India’s vast rail network - it’s a regular point on the ‘plus’ side of the balance sheet. Yet the trains were built in order to exploit India’s wealth, to transport resources from remote regions to British built ports such as Bombay and Madras. The same can be said for ‘gifts’ of the British such as the legal system and the English language - they were all introduced to India in order to further the interests of the Empire, which was itself intended to benefit Britain first and foremost (or you might say a particular class of British people). Checking them off on a balance sheet tells us none of this (btw I’d argue the same against those who enjoy compiling lists of the ‘evils’ of empire).

So I’d reject the adjectives you’ve chosen as a useful way to understand the man, and I don’t believe it necessary to think of alternative, more complex approaches as a neutral, fence-sitting middle ground.
Feck me where were you the other day when I dared ask a question about this topic!? I was fecking hammered by this baying mob. :lol:
 

2cents

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Feck me where were you the other day when I dared ask a question about this topic!? I was fecking hammered by this baying mob. :lol:
I’m not being smart, but I did respond to you a couple of times, with no reply (that’s fine though, you were busy enough).
 

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Oh please don’t go out of your way to be nice to me Silva. I’ve got my big boy pants on :D

I promise I won’t use that abhorrent language ‘scum’ again, I was only channelling my inner Partridge to be fair.
It was the sub human part that got everyone's attention.
 

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Oh come on... You know I didn't mean it in that sense, it's a bloody common phrase and almost nobody uses it in the form of a crazed Nazi.
Ok I guess. It's not a phrase I hear a lot tbh. So you don't think people who vandalize memorials are actually sub human.

Cheers what a great conversation we've just had.


the actions of these people disrespecting a monument designed to remember those that died to protect the very freedom they are benefiting from.
You're so close yet so far away

Trying to find any sort of acceptance to that sort of disrespectful behaviour and permitting people to inflict upset to those who lost family to war is in incredibly unusual hill to choose to die on.
Kl but that's not an answer.
 

SteveJ

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I wonder what poor Vera Lynn, RIP, would think about the actions of these people disrespecting a monument designed to remember those that died to protect the very freedom they are benefiting from.
Mate, do you not realise how close to parody that sounds? I'm very sorry that Vera has passed on, btw, and I mean no offence to her memory. While we recognise the courage and efforts of troops (and civilians) during World War II, many of us have been brought up with relentless 'Britain is best' propaganda - from Vera's famous song to Churchill's speeches to the expediency of our current Union-flag-clad leaders - and we're tired of it. Why? Not because of disrespect but because for many of us Britain remains a nation deeply and deliberately divided when it comes to matters as varied as health and finance...so the flag-waving, the 'all soldiers are heroes' and the casual assumption that Britain has always been on the right side of history wears thin and often appears merely a bromide for the masses. I could go on, but I'll spare us all.

Now, if I were to describe all those who deface monuments as 'pure, brave freedom fighters who kick back against a corrupt system' then I'd surely, at least, be generalising to a ridiculous extent. Similarly, if you describe them as 'scum' and their monumental targets as 'heroes' you'd be equally as careless as me in my hypothetical description above. Perhaps, then, you can understand why the language of important issues matters so much.
 

Rams

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I'm not sure what you feel is personal here, Rams. But fine, I'll repeat the points I've already made. I said this half of your post recent post is impossible:

"And trust me, I’m well aware of just how fluid and abstract history is, hence why I’m emphasizing to be careful not to judge history or historical figures from our current values and perceptions.'

Why is it impossible? Well for two reasons, firstly, we're products of our time and fundamentally incapable of putting aside our biases – biases which we should not put aside either. And secondly, because the 'values of their time' that you would judge historical figures by instead did not exist either and are, instead, a construct of previous generations of society's own biases. As well meaning as your statement sounds, all you're doing is reifying a constructed version of the past which didn't exist as equally as much as the version of the past that you're railing against.

What do I mean? Well let me give you an example. I think you're a good person, so I'm going to assume you are in this example, but it somewhat falls down if you aren't.

It is often said by the defenders of these monuments that it was ok that they owned slaves because it was deemed acceptable 'by the standards of their time'. But what do we really mean by that? Certainly, for those trafficked and sold in to slavery, slavery was not acceptable or ok, so what we really mean is that pre-dominantly white, western men thought it was ok (pre-dominantly used here so some clever clogs doesn't feel the need to point out that it wasn't exclusively white folk). Why did they think it was ok? Because they thought so little of black men and women that they willing to sell their lives in order to make a quick buck. The word sub-human's been used a lot on this page, but it's literally relevant here. When we say that it was acceptable 'by the standards of their time' what we mean, then, is that we're ignoring the voices of those slaves themselves, who we deem not worthy of having a voice and we're accepting the arguments of those that enslaved them, who knew – but didn't care – that they were holding human beings against their will.

And why do we know it's ok? Because the generations before us studied the slavers, they wrote histories and biographies of them, and they sought to absolve (often literally) their ancestors of their involvement with a trade that was, eventually abolished. They, too, did not care for the black voices trafficked in the trade, however, who were similarly treated as if their own opinions on whether or not it was 'acceptable' for them to be sold into slavery were irrelevant because white taste makers had deemed that it was. The past you're holding sacrosanct is a past that takes the opinion of 5 white people and 5 black people and believes the white people. Now I don't think you would do that in real life, and I strongly believe you'd reckon it very racist if someone did, but that's what the argument implicitly boils down to. If you were to do that you would not beholding on to an objective truth, but one version of a constructed past which is rooted in white supremacy and centres white voices over black.

Alternatively, we could approach the problem with what is clearly a modern bias and argue that black voices should be heard, we can even argue that the experience of slaves should loom larger in the history than the opinions of slavers, and we can construct a version of the past where we see the practice as throughly unacceptable and the people involved in it as reprehensible because we listen to the voices of the slaves as much as we can. That new construct's not a fiction, it's not mendacious or duplicitous, nor is it an erasure of the construct that had come before it, but it's a reflection of the values of our society just as assuredly as the previous constructs it challenges are a reflection of the values of that society.

I know 'let's not judge people by modern standards' sounds sensible, and I can see why it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking it, but it fails to realise that history has always been judged by modern standards and that it is literally impossible to do anything but that; every decision we both do and don't make is applying modern standards to it. It doesn't mean you're seeking to alter the past, but that our interpretations of the events and the actors within it, even the ideals and ideas we think that society's of the past held, simply change according to what we're looking for.

None of this is to dig you out personally and as I said to 2cents in his post previous generations of historians failed to realise this point too, the whole formal academic discipline of history is built on the shoulders of victorian empiricists who failed to realise they were constructing their 'objective' versions of the past with the cultural values and assumptions of their time, but it is nonetheless true and makes appeals to 'protecting history' somewhat silly in this entire debate.
I would have thought “you don’t know what history is” is pretty personal, NinjaFletch.
Personally I think the reason why history & fluid is because it’s impossible for us humans to be unbiased. The historians of Roman times had a completely different view of the World then historians today. Yet historians today (with help of science and archeology) base their views on what we know from the historians of Roman times. So you get interpretation upon interpretation. This is why I think archeology & science is important. Hence I’m not in favour of the taking down of statues and other historical landmarks.

As for slavery is concerned, I’m not well read on the subject from British perspective but certainly the evidence from Dutch perspective is that the general feeling was people were uncomfortable with it at the time (without even knowing of the atrocities in far away lands). It certainly didn’t sit with well with the God fearing virtues of the day. Apart from accounting & logging books, there is actually relatively little archeological evidence of the slave trade in the 7 Provences. This would suggest that the slave traders & owners were keen to show off their wealth, but not so keen to show off how they achieved it.
Anyway, I haven’t seen anybody in here say a good word about the slave trade and Churchill certainly wasn’t in favour of it...

There’s so much Bull shit on the internet about Churchill. Facts distorted and quotes taken out of context. The thing is we know exactly what he thought & did because he continuously wrote about it. I dare you to pick up one of his memoirs because they give a fascinating insight in to the man and the times he lived in.
Churchill was undoubtedly a racist & fanatical imperialist. He thought the white race superior to the ‘savages’. He was also already a celebrity even before the boar war and had an adventurous early manhood to say the least. However, he was a humanist and believed all should be free no matter your ethnicity. In other words a complex paradoxical character who very much embodies the British establishment at the time. They all perceived the World in the same way, from the royals to the MP’s. All were convinced of their racial superiority.
There has been claims in this thread that Churchill was never against fascism and was just trying to protect the Empire during WWII. We know this is factually incorrect because he spent most of the 1930’s warning of the dangers of fascism and pleading to World leaders to take action against Hitler and chums. Memoirs, radio speeches & interviews, newspaper articles, the proof is all there. Churchill was ideologically against fascism and promoted war against it. End of!
So if we are going to judge Churchill then at least do so based upon the truth and not a load of cock & bull!!!!!
 

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I would have thought “you don’t know what history is” is pretty personal, NinjaFletch.
Personally I think the reason why history & fluid is because it’s impossible for us humans to be unbiased. The historians of Roman times had a completely different view of the World then historians today. Yet historians today (with help of science and archeology) base their views on what we know from the historians of Roman times. So you get interpretation upon interpretation. This is why I think archeology & science is important. Hence I’m not in favour of the taking down of statues and other historical landmarks.

As for slavery is concerned, I’m not well read on the subject from British perspective but certainly the evidence from Dutch perspective is that the general feeling was people were uncomfortable with it at the time (without even knowing of the atrocities in far away lands). It certainly didn’t sit with well with the God fearing virtues of the day. Apart from accounting & logging books, there is actually relatively little archeological evidence of the slave trade in the 7 Provences. This would suggest that the slave traders & owners were keen to show off their wealth, but not so keen to show off how they achieved it.
Anyway, I haven’t seen anybody in here say a good word about the slave trade and Churchill certainly wasn’t in favour of it...

There’s so much Bull shit on the internet about Churchill. Facts distorted and quotes taken out of context. The thing is we know exactly what he thought & did because he continuously wrote about it. I dare you to pick up one of his memoirs because they give a fascinating insight in to the man and the times he lived in.
Churchill was undoubtedly a racist & fanatical imperialist. He thought the white race superior to the ‘savages’. He was also already a celebrity even before the boar war and had an adventurous early manhood to say the least. However, he was a humanist and believed all should be free no matter your ethnicity. In other words a complex paradoxical character who very much embodies the British establishment at the time. They all perceived the World in the same way, from the royals to the MP’s. All were convinced of their racial superiority.
There has been claims in this thread that Churchill was never against fascism and was just trying to protect the Empire during WWII. We know this is factually incorrect because he spent most of the 1930’s warning of the dangers of fascism and pleading to World leaders to take action against Hitler and chums. Memoirs, radio speeches & interviews, newspaper articles, the proof is all there. Churchill was ideologically against fascism and promoted war against it. End of!
So if we are going to judge Churchill then at least do so based upon the truth and not a load of cock & bull!!!!!
You have not read Churchill’s own writings. If you have and concluded he was a firm ideological opponent of Fascism I’d question your literacy.

After visiting Italy in 1927 he wrote to his wife: ‘This country gives the impression of discipline, order, goodwill, smiling faces. A happy strict school... The Fascists have been saluting in their impressive manner all over the place’.

He met Mussolini and praised him enthusiastically, stating ‘If I had been an Italian, I am sure that I should have been whole-heartedly with you from the start to the finish in your triumphant struggle against the bestial appetites and passions of Leninism’

This is only a fragment of evidence to the contrary. I could post much, much more.

And how on earth do you reconcile your acceptance that he was a ‘racist and fanatical imperialist’ with the notion
‘he was a humanist who believed all people should be free regardless of ethnicity’. Staggering. Even as a concept that defies comprehension, let alone before we look at the actions of this ‘humanist’ who believed everyone should be free - free in what sense? Free to be tortured, raped and murdered in concentration camps in Kenya?
 

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I have no doubts he was an abhorrent human being with awful personal views, and to me that trumps his efforts during the war.
 

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[This is the Winston Churchill thread, not the Cambridge admissions is racist thread]
 
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Rams

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You have not read Churchill’s own writings. If you have and concluded he was a firm ideological opponent of Fascism I’d question your literacy.

After visiting Italy in 1927 he wrote to his wife: ‘This country gives the impression of discipline, order, goodwill, smiling faces. A happy strict school... The Fascists have been saluting in their impressive manner all over the place’.

He met Mussolini and praised him enthusiastically, stating ‘If I had been an Italian, I am sure that I should have been whole-heartedly with you from the start to the finish in your triumphant struggle against the bestial appetites and passions of Leninism’

This is only a fragment of evidence to the contrary. I could post much, much more.

And how on earth do you reconcile your acceptance that he was a ‘racist and fanatical imperialist’ with the notion
‘he was a humanist who believed all people should be free regardless of ethnicity’. Staggering. Even as a concept that defies comprehension, let alone before we look at the actions of this ‘humanist’ who believed everyone should be free - free in what sense? Free to be tortured, raped and murdered in concentration camps in Kenya?
Also thank you for getting personal. I could call you a cnut for questioning my intellect and showing me disrespect, but the truth is I couldn’t care less of what you think of me.

I thought I was very clear that Churchill was a paradoxical & complex character. He also liked a drink and controversy. His memoirs are full of statements to stir up controversy. He was seen as a loose cannon and unfit to be Prime Minister (until WWII). Nobody would have dreamed he would become PM, certainly not in the 1930’s. I guess he was a kind of populist as well.
Churchill was a political chameleon. He continuously changed his views throughout his life. By the time Hitler came to power his views of fascism had changed. Which one of his many anti-fascism speeches during the 1930’s would you like me to quote? This is getting ridiculous. Maybe it’s just me and ignorance is a virtue after all.

As for Kenya, I’m afraid that’s just one of the many dark sides of the British colonial rule. Most PM’s were complicit to such atrocities during the British Empire. At the time the Empire still had a vast army covering most parts of the World. It would be naive to think any PM had control of the behavior of the forces present at such far away destinations. What Churchill’s government certainly was guilty of is purging and a cover up of the atrocities committed by the commonwealth army, but sadly nothing out of the ordinary by British Empire standards. That’s one of the reasons why I personally am ashamed of our Imperial history and am against any form of nationalism.
 

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Also thank you for getting personal. I could call you a cnut for questioning my intellect and showing me disrespect, but the truth is I couldn’t care less of what you think of me.

I thought I was very clear that Churchill was a paradoxical & complex character. He also liked a drink and controversy. His memoirs are full of statements to stir up controversy. He was seen as a loose cannon and unfit to be Prime Minister (until WWII). Nobody would have dreamed he would become PM, certainly not in the 1930’s. I guess he was a kind of populist as well.
Churchill was a political chameleon. He continuously changed his views throughout his life. By the time Hitler came to power his views of fascism had changed. Which one of his many anti-fascism speeches during the 1930’s would you like me to quote? This is getting ridiculous. Maybe it’s just me and ignorance is a virtue after all.

As for Kenya, I’m afraid that’s just one of the many dark sides of the British colonial rule. Most PM’s were complicit to such atrocities during the British Empire. At the time the Empire still had a vast army covering most parts of the World. It would be naive to think any PM had control of the behavior of the forces present at such far away destinations. What Churchill’s government certainly was guilty of is purging and a cover up of the atrocities committed by the commonwealth army, but sadly nothing out of the ordinary by British Empire standards. That’s one of the reasons why I personally am ashamed of our Imperial history and am against any form of nationalism.
You said

Churchill was ideologically against fascism and promoted war against it. End of
You posted this with an air of authority, suggesting you are well acquainted with Churchill’s history, his actions and his words. What you said is simply at odds with reality. It’s complete and utter ahistorical drivel, and you can’t post rubbish like this and not expect to get pulled up on it.
As far as I’m aware even Churchill’s most sycophantic biographers (including our very own PM) do not even pretend that Churchill was a consistent and principled anti-Fascist, as you have. Quite frankly, it’s just an utterly ludicrous statement. It would be an argument as easy to dismantle as a claim that Hitler was not truly anti-Bolshevik because he signed a pact with Stalin.
 

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Mate, do you not realise how close to parody that sounds? I'm very sorry that Vera has passed on, btw, and I mean no offence to her memory. While we recognise the courage and efforts of troops (and civilians) during World War II, many of us have been brought up with relentless 'Britain is best' propaganda - from Vera's famous song to Churchill's speeches to the expediency of our current Union-flag-clad leaders - and we're tired of it. Why? Not because of disrespect but because for many of us Britain remains a nation deeply and deliberately divided when it comes to matters as varied as health and finance...so the flag-waving, the 'all soldiers are heroes' and the casual assumption that Britain has always been on the right side of history wears thin and often appears merely a bromide for the masses. I could go on, but I'll spare us all.

Now, if I were to describe all those who deface monuments as 'pure, brave freedom fighters who kick back against a corrupt system' then I'd surely, at least, be generalising to a ridiculous extent. Similarly, if you describe them as 'scum' and their monumental targets as 'heroes' you'd be equally as careless as me in my hypothetical description above. Perhaps, then, you can understand why the language of important issues matters so much.
If I'm honest, no I don't mate, and I'm trying to answer your post respectively as I respect your opinion on the country being divided. However I don't understand the train of thought that Vera Lynn and the memory of those who died in WW11 (and other wars) are in any way some type parody.

Was winning the battle of Britain supposed to bring the people of 2020 a utopian, perfectly balanced nation of equality and prosperity that doesn't exist anywhere else in the history of mankind? Now that sounds like Parody to me. The division you describe is prevalent in every country, it's hardly unique in Britain and in reality it's likely to be far less prevalent here than in many countries.

After all only in this country can a person have a baby, be given a house, be given money to sit at home and on top of that be given free healthcare. A system that pays you more to turn work down and stay home whilst the hardest working are taxed the most to pay for the rest. That I'm sure would have sounded like utopia to the generation who fought in WW11 but in reality it's a dystopia that is crippling the country. But that's a different debate entirely.

I don't understand how anybody, let alone the numbers here in this thread, think a monument for the dead can be defaced so one person can voice their opinion. It's also pretty ironic that a person such as myself (and others) have been shot down by the same people for voicing their own opinions in an infinitely less offensive manner.

If I deface somebody's grave to make a point that I'm not a racist - will that be ok as well? I doubt it. To deface a monument of remembrance is the same gesture in my eyes and I'm sure to millions of others outside of this thread.

We have to apply common sense and decency.
 
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SteveJ

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From what I can tell, the lesson learned from such establishment figures is that non-white people - except 'the high-level ones that we can work with' - are only so much rubbish, a rabble to be either shovelled up or shifted off somewhere, or fit only to be made profitable to 'us'. They frustratingly, stubbornly won't do as they're told. They are, apparently, problems and not people.
 

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If I'm honest, no I don't mate, and I'm trying to answer your post respectively as I respect your opinion on the country being divided. However I don't understand the train of thought that Vera Lynn and the memory of those who died in WW11 (and other wars) are in any way some type parody.
Mr Kubrick disagrees.


Was winning the battle of Britain supposed to bring the people of 2020 a utopian, perfectly balanced nation of equality and prosperity that doesn't exist anywhere else in the history of mankind? Now that sounds like Parody to me. The division you describe is prevalent in every country, it's hardly unique in Britain and in reality it's likely to be far less prevalent here than in many countries.

Only in this country can a person have a baby, be given a house, be given money to sit at home and on top of that be given free healthcare. Whilst the hardest working are taxed the most to pay for the lazy. But that's a different debate entirely.

I don't understand how anybody, let alone the numbers here in this thread, think a monument for the dead can be defaced so one person can voice their opinion. It's also pretty ironic that a person such as myself (and others) have been shot down by the same people for voicing their own opinions in an infinitely less offensive manner.
Honestly you should just take a very long break from this thread.
 

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Mr Kubrick disagrees.



Honestly you should just take a very long break from this thread.
Yes I must, but it's like a strange alternate universe that keeps drawing me back in. It's torture, I have work tomorrow.

Edit; Plus my OCD makes it impossible to not reply.
 

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After all only in this country can a person have a baby, be given a house, be given money to sit at home and on top of that be given free healthcare. A system that pays you more to turn work down and stay home whilst the hardest working are taxed the most to pay for the lazy.
...

We have to apply common sense and decency.
Can you start by revising that first part of your post then cause it’s a masterclass in not applying common sense and decency.
 

SteveJ

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If I'm honest, no I don't mate, and I'm trying to answer your post respectively as I respect your opinion on the country being divided. However I don't understand the train of thought that Vera Lynn and the memory of those who died in WW11 (and other wars) are in any way some type parody.
Sorry, I should've made myself clear: I meant that the way you wrote in that sentence about Vera Lynn sounded very melodramatic; which is why I compared it to my silly made-up example of writing about the vandals as being 'pure, brave freedom fighters'.
 

Rams

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You said



You posted this with an air of authority, suggesting you are well acquainted with Churchill’s history, his actions and his words. What you said is simply at odds with reality. It’s complete and utter ahistorical drivel, and you can’t post rubbish like this and not expect to get pulled up on it.
As far as I’m aware even Churchill’s most sycophantic biographers (including our very own PM) do not even pretend that Churchill was a consistent and principled anti-Fascist, as you have. Quite frankly, it’s just an utterly ludicrous statement. It would be an argument as easy to dismantle as a claim that Hitler was not truly anti-Bolshevik because he signed a pact with Stalin.
Funny you should compliment me on my literary skills, because I never wrote Churchill was a consistent & principled anti-fascist, I said he was ideology against fascism and that he continuously was changing his views for what ever reason.

Anyway, make your own minds up...
https://winstonchurchill.org/public...en-the-two-totalitarianisms-1917-1945-2-of-3/

Please refrain from inventing things I never said because I will fight you on the beaches and never let you get away with it.
 

Wibble

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I will have ago at,


Poverty for the newly arrived cultures.

Ghettoization.

Internal division and strife.

Breakdown of native cultural institutions.

Decision making paralysis.
I'd say they are failures of predominately right-wing governments who hate foreigners rather than multiculturalism.
 

RUCK4444

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...



Can you start by revising that first part of your post then cause it’s a masterclass in not applying common sense and decency.
I was merely pointing out, in response to Steve, of what this country is able to provide it's population and how, when you write it down and read it back is incredible really. For clarity, and sake of argument, what part of it was as offensive as spray painting a war monument? Because that's accepted now as a way for people to express themselves.
 
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RUCK4444

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Sorry, I should've made myself clear: I meant that the way you wrote in that sentence about Vera Lynn sounded very melodramatic; which is why I compared it to my silly made-up example of writing about the vandals as being 'pure, brave freedom fighters'.
No problem, I can see that. I just wish we could focus on the good these movements can achieve rather than having to focus on the negative, the press prefer to show somebody defacing a monument than the thousands who are peacefully protesting.
 

Rams

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I'd say they are failures of predominately right-wing governments who hate foreigners rather than multiculturalism.
Rather than wasting our time talking about statues or Winston bloody Churchill, these are the real issues that need to be addressed.
 

sammsky1

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Rather than wasting our time talking about statues or Winston bloody Churchill, these are the real issues that need to be addressed.
Well this thread is about Churchill and his statue so what do you expect? :houllier:

Many posters have made the same point in their own way: that the glorification of Churchill and his ilk cultivated a culture amongst some, that makes progress on ‘real issues’ very slow or non existant at all.

This reality is compounded further as falsely educated Brits were duped with rhetoric about ‘Rule Brittania’ and ‘surrender bill’ etc to vote in BrExit and a bafoon for Prime Minister, who has led the worlds no 1 worst response to covid19.

Yes this country has ‘real issues’ and they originate in a false superiority complex, whose most recent founding father was the late Winston Churchill.

PS: In a thread where critics loudly and consistently complain about the whitewashing of Churchill's story, using https://winstonchurchill.org as a source takes a special kind of #DontGiveaFcuk :lol:
 
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SteveJ

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RUCK4444 said:
Was winning the battle of Britain supposed to bring the people of 2020 a utopian, perfectly balanced nation of equality and prosperity that doesn't exist anywhere else in the history of mankind? Now that sounds like Parody to me. The division you describe is prevalent in every country, it's hardly unique in Britain and in reality it's likely to be far less prevalent here than in many countries.
A lifetime's interest in history has not blessed me with expertise, but merely with strongly-held opinions. My reading has essentially told me the same old story, which I'll try to briefly summarise:

*Famous speeches and soundbites - from glorious fictional rallies uttered by Henry V to Elizabeth the First's Armada speech to Churchill's wartime rhetoric - are frequently mere empty promises and lies. Elizabeth's speech, for example, was followed by English troops dying of thirst and hunger after the battle as they were left to literally crawl homewards along England's roads; Churchill's similar appeals to British class-solidarity and class-free unity implied 'homes fit for heroes' would be made ready for the returning troops and their loved ones...and yet many of us today live in a town called Malice, graced with the same WWII-era, Coronation Street drab and featureless housing. The palaces are still here too, of course. Same as it ever was...

*Even on the rare occasions when the public wakes up to actual reality and revolts, the same old mistake is made: they feel obliged to appeal to the ruling class for alliance, leadership and weaponry. Inevitably, more lies and false promises result; the revolt is quashed, the (lower-class) rebels are murdered as an example to others, and it's back to business as usual for the lofty liars and leaders.

No, you're right - Britain isn't alone in its problems, and it is naive to wish for utopias. But, frankly, it's not the ordinary people who deceitfully hold out the promise of solutions and dreams, and it's not those folks who are responsible for the brutal crushing of such dreams.

RUCK4444 said:
After all only in this country can a person have a baby, be given a house, be given money to sit at home and on top of that be given free healthcare. A system that pays you more to turn work down and stay home whilst the hardest working are taxed the most to pay for the lazy. That I'm sure would have sounded like utopia to the generation who fought in WW11 but in reality it's a dystopia that is crippling the country. But that's a different debate entirely.
It's only a personal opinion again but I feel you're not aiming at the correct targets of your anger. You are aiming your criticism at the easiest, most easily available targets.

RUCK4444 said:
I don't understand how anybody, let alone the numbers here in this thread, think a monument for the dead can be defaced so one person can voice their opinion. It's also pretty ironic that a person such as myself (and others) have been shot down by the same people for voicing their own opinions in an infinitely less offensive manner.
It's curious, isn't it, how many protests are bought into disrepute by acts like those you mention? Isn't that convenient for the authorities and those with associated, vested financial interests? Who knows - perhaps these recent incidents are rather similar to the laughably obvious 'interference' seen in other demonstrations...remember those banners from recent gatherings, ones that seem designed to make a mockery of the protesters and their cause: 'Behead those who say Islam is violent'?

RUCK4444 said:
If I deface somebody's grave to make a point that I'm not a racist - will that be ok as well? I doubt it. To deface a monument of remembrance is the same gesture in my eyes and I'm sure to millions of others outside of this thread.
It always depends on what particular monuments represent to people, and the very personal nature of their views. For example, a person might deface a war memorial simply because they are anti-war. So there could be any number of reasons for the acts.
 

oates

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There is something weirdly fetishistic about those who feel the need to drag Mandela or Gandhi into this discussion.
He means Horatio Nelson.

As I did when I brought his statue up. FFS.
 

Rams

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Well this thread is about Churchill and his statue so what do you expect? :houllier:

Many posters have made the same point in their own way: that the glorification of Churchill and his ilk cultivated a culture amongst some, that makes progress on ‘real issues’ very slow or non existant at all.

This reality is compounded further as falsely educated Brits were duped with rhetoric about ‘Rule Brittania’ and ‘surrender bill’ etc to vote in BrExit and a bafoon for Prime Minister, who has led the worlds no 1 worst response to covid19.

Yes this country has ‘real issues’ and they originate in a false superiority complex, whose most recent founding father was the late Winston Churchill.

PS: In a thread where critics loudly and consistently complain about the whitewashing of Churchill's story, using https://winstonchurchill.org as a source takes a special kind of #DontGiveafeck :lol:
I guess what really bugs me is all this goody 2 shoes bull shit. Black lives matter so let’s blame Winston Churchill and feel good about our selves. We all know Churchill was a cnut of the highest order, but taking down his statue is not got to make a sodding difference and distracts from the real issues in hand. The irony is that it’s thanks to people like him that we live in multicultural society. So if you really want to make a difference then vote for a political party that embraces multiculturalism and own up to your own prejudices.
 

Wibble

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After all only in this country can a person have a baby, be given a house, be given money to sit at home and on top of that be given free healthcare. A system that pays you more to turn work down and stay home whilst the hardest working are taxed the most to pay for the lazy. That I'm sure would have sounded like utopia to the generation who fought in WW11 but in reality it's a dystopia that is crippling the country. But that's a different debate entirely.
What a load of bullshit. Britain isn't unique in not allowing refugees to starve to death in the street. And your sentence about lazy dole bludgers vs hardworking tax payers is peak BoJo bullshit. We have nowhere near full employment with vacancies far below the number unemployed. So until that isn't the case you are simply victim blaming.

I don't understand how anybody, let alone the numbers here in this thread, think a monument for the dead can be defaced so one person can voice their opinion. It's also pretty ironic that a person such as myself (and others) have been shot down by the same people for voicing their own opinions in an infinitely less offensive manner.
Perhaps if we had ever had a mature adult conversation about these issues we would now be seeing statues being thrown in rivers? Just a thought.

And in the end it is just a statue.

If I deface somebody's grave to make a point that I'm not a racist - will that be ok as well? I doubt it. To deface a monument of remembrance is the same gesture in my eyes and I'm sure to millions of others outside of this thread.
Don't be silly. A statue isn't a grave.

We have to apply common sense and decency.
Whose common sense and decency? Yours? Mine? Bojos? Trumps? Mother Teresa's? Bob from down the pub?
 
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SteveJ

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Reminds me...I must get that old projector out of the attic.
 

oates

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He was vehemently opposed to the abolition of slavery.
Vehemently he opposed Wilberforce. I might have mentioned it before.