Wonder what people think he did wrong yesterday. On the few occasions he got the ball in dangerous areas he did well. Not his fault Rashford and James were absolutely dreadful and Fred went back to his form a year ago.
Has Martial done enough to be backed as our long-term #9?
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
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I think he will further develop into a very good striker barring injuries if we can sort out the creativity issues next season but I don't believe that would stop the clamour for proper striker he would still remain the player who would always divide opinion amongst the supporters.
When? 2 years? 3 years? by then he's 27-28 and we already wasted 8 years on him.
It's his first season as a striker and that too without any creativity behind him next season if he fails to produce we should cut our losses.
It's next season or bust. In fact I'll say January since that's when Ighalo's contract expires so we would need a striker. Whether it should be a back up would be dependent on Martial
Fair enough, but for me personally if he can't make the jump in 6 years I doubt adding another 1 would mean much.
On one of the few occasions he got the ball he missed a sitter. If you aren’t getting the ball then move about to get involved. If you’re going to be a lazy twat then you need to produce when you do get the chance. He didn’t.
He’s really talented but he’s never going to be a great goalscorer. If we want to get back to the top we need a striker that can push 30 league goals a season, he’s not that and never will be. He’s got a really obsessive fanbase for some reason though.
I think so too but to be fair there has been some reasonable excuses why he hasn't made the jump. But those excuses are out the window so it's one last chance for him. Some players also spend half of their careers being above average when suddenly they become world class
absolutely right... except for almost everything!
Liverpool goal scored: 66, City 71, Leicester 59, Chelsea 51, United 45! even Spurs below us have scored more.
Martial has (I think) a grand total of 11 league goals. So who is talking bollocks?
What have those teams had that United haven’t...
Their best creative players fit and ready to feed goals to their forwards.
# | Player | Country | Team | Goals (Penalty) | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1. | Jamie Vardy | England | Leicester City | 19 (4) | |
2. | Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang | Gabon | Arsenal FC | 17 (1) | |
3. | Kun Agüero | Argentina | Manchester City | 16 (2) | |
| Danny Ings | England | Southampton FC | 16 (0) | |
| Mohamed Salah | Egypt | Liverpool FC | 16 (3) | |
6. | Raúl Jiménez | Mexico | Wolverhampton Wanderers | 14 (3) | |
| Sadio Mané | Senegal | Liverpool FC | 14 (0) | |
| Marcus Rashford | England | Manchester United | 14 (5) | |
9. | Tammy Abraham | England | Chelsea FC | 13 (0) | |
| Dominic Calvert-Lewin | England | Everton FC | 13 (0) | |
11. | Raheem Sterling | England | Manchester City | 12 (0) | |
12. | Harry Kane | England | Tottenham Hotspur | 11 (2) | |
| Anthony Martial | France | Manchester United | 11 (0) | |
| Teemu Pukki | Finland | Norwich City | 11 (2) | |
| Chris Wood | New Zealand | Burnley FC | 11 (0) |
Hardly good numbers
To answer the first do I think he will improve, no, I don’t I think what we are seeing is the best regardless of the talent around him. He was at his best in his first season when he was an unknown but no people know take away his space and he has nothing left. He is a very talented one on one expert, one of the best I’ve seen but he’s at best average at everything else.
I think the others would be better, not necessarily in just goal scoring terms but for what they brought to the team, most of our strikers have been good intelligent footballers who can bring others into play and allow us to build attacks. Martial has never been able to do that, a couple decent dribbles that bounce of his shin is the most I expect from him sadly.
Don’t get me wrong he’s alright, but we need think bigger than martial who is living of his transfer fee for me
Agreed rashford Fernandes pogba Jesus even lingard (who I can’t stand) all crave the ball and try to make things happen. Martial is the total opposite and when you’re at the tip of the spear you need to do much much more
In terms of open-play goals, he's two goals behind Salah and three goals behind Mané, and that's with Martial having missed two months of the season unlike either Mané or Salah. If Martial's numbers can't be described as great, then you can't really describe Mané's or Salah's numbers as great either.
Also, Man City and Liverpool are the only two clubs other than us to have two players in the Top 15 goalscorers, so it seems to me that neither Rashford or Martial are really at fault for not posting good numbers. If anything, our main problem is that we really struggle to score outside of the front three; after Lindelof scored against Villa on December 1st, the next person to score in the PL not named Martial, Rashford or Greenwood was Maguire against Chelsea on February 17th.
Tables like this don't tell the whole story - if you look at non-penalty goals per minute then you can see he's not doing too badly.
Vardy - 154 mins/per non-penalty goal
Aubameyang - 155 mins
Aguero - 100 mins
Ings - 131 mins
Salah - 173 mins
Raul Jimenez - 232 mins
Mane - 149 mins
Rashford - 179 mins
Abraham - 150 mins
Calvert-Lewin - 147 mins
Sterling - 176 mins
Kane - 207 mins
Martial - 178 mins
Pukki - 285 mins
Wood - 188 mins
So he's got a better goals per minute ratio in open play than Kane, as well as being on a par with the likes of Sterling, Rashford and Salah. It's still not great, but considering how he spent a large part of the season being set up by the likes of Lingard, Pereira, James, Fred and McTominay as well as suffering injuries, I don't think he's done too bad. Was surprised by how well Calvert-Lewin and Abraham have done this season.
Not doing too badly? He's doing fine if all we want is to be midtable clubs.
But if we want 3rd and beyond we need proper striker. Sorry, I'm not the one setting the bar, good luck chasing Liverpool consistency and City with a hot and cold striker who can only be arsed to track back once every 3 games.
We’ve been largely shit most of this season - but before lockdown we were looking sharp again. Since our last loss against Burnley he’s had what 5 goals in 8 games played (all comps)? And his general play was excellent. He’s a good footballer, still young and I’d absolutely keep him at United.
First things first, Jimenez has scored the same amount of open-play goals as Martial and Pukki has scored even less so I don't see why you've listed them here, although I have no problem with all the others who have been listed.
Secondly, my point was not that Martial was one of the best scorers in the league. My point was that saying Martial had posted hardly great numbers was unfair to him as I don't think anyone would say the same of Mané and Salah who have posted higher numbers but with greater playing time. @MalcolmTucker posted there that Salah on average scores a non-penalty goal every 173 minutes and Martial every 178 minutes, but I don't think there would be too many who would be quick to point out that Salah has posted hardly great numbers this season.
If you ignore context he looks not good enough simple as.
Apply context and it makes sense.
Let's be honest, our midfield for most the season has been that of a midtable club, possibly worse when we were lining up with McTominay/Fred/Lingard/Pereira/James (and I like Mctom and Fred). Also why do you want our main striker to track back? And track whom exactly?
We may very well need to replace him to step up to the next level eventually, but who can we realistically sign to replace him that is guaranteed to do better because they won't be cheap. It's his first season as our main striker and he has outperformed the likes of Kane and Firmino (both of whom lead the line in the CL final last season) despite us being without our best creative players for most the campaign. He's doing as well as Sterling and Salah as far as goal output goes in a far less functioning team and you're talking about replacing Martial despite our right side consisting of James and Mata who have a grand total of 3 goals between them and an 18 year old striker. We're not going to buy a world-class right sided player and a striker better than Martial next window, so talking about getting 'a proper striker' in is something you should probably suspend for a while because we're not going to buy one for at least another year.
Probably only the strikers from the top three clubs. Where we should be aiming to be.
You can write an excuse if it's 2-3 strikers above him.
But when half the league striker is at least on par or better than him then he's not good enough.
If we want top 3 and beyond we need better striker, more dependable, more consistent, the one that bangs normal goals and produce magic every now and then. Martial seems to be able to produce worldies but lacking the basic goal scoring nous of a prime Striker. He seldom press, he seldom harras the opponent to make mistake, he's too lazy to run is his problems, he lacks the will and the tenacity to get ugly and stick his bodys in congested areas, he plays one dimensional which makes marking him easier.
Bottom line is that he needs to improve "A lot" if we aspire to be 3rd and beyond
I've been taking a look at this website (link below) and they have stats for which players are the best performers in terms of their non-penalty goals exceeding their non-penalty Expected Goals on a per90 basis. If you then exclude those who have played less than 15 full games so that we have a good sample size, here are the best attackers:
1. Harry Wilson (0.21)
2. Riyad Mahrez (0.18)
3. Danny Ings (0.17)
4. Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang (0.17)
5. Harry Kane (0.17)
6. Jamie Vardy (0.16)
7. Anthony Martial (0.15)
For the sake of comparison, Aguero is 0.13, Mané is 0.11, Sterling is 0.05, and Salah is 0.03.
Looking at that, it seems to me that out main problem is not Martial being wasteful in goal but is instead that he either doesn't take enough shots or that he doesn't get as high quality service as City and Liverpool forwards.
https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/shooting/Premier-League-Stats (Will need to toggle on a Per90 basis to see this stat - Usual disclaimers about xG apply)
Goals are goals.
Goals are the soul of top strikers.
Open play goals, goals from corner kicks, goals from penalties, goals from freekicks, goals that were Xpected but never happened, scoring goals using your butt, who cares?
Haaland is the complete opposite of Martial. Where every time He gets near the box, the defenders shit themselves and before you know it, He shoots and it's a goal. That is a top striker. Martial has done nothing close to that, let alone on a consistent basis.
Martial strikes no fear to defenders.
Goals are the soul of top strikers.
Open play goals, goals from corner kicks, goals from penalties, goals from freekicks, goals that were Xpected but never happened, scoring goals using your butt, who cares?
Haaland is the complete opposite of Martial. Where every time He gets near the box, the defenders shit themselves and before you know it, He shoots and it's a goal. That is a top striker. Martial has done nothing close to that, let alone on a consistent basis.
Martial strikes no fear to defenders.
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Martial can be great - but I honestly don't see him progressing much beyond what he has offered so far. Happy if he proves me wrong though.
Ultimately to challenge at the top United need to upgrade.
Ultimately to challenge at the top United need to upgrade.
Zlatan (2016/17 league) : 0.55 non penalty Goals p90
Martial (2019/20) : 0.53 non penalty
Martial (2019/20) : 0.53 non penalty
Against Spurs, in terms of expectations and in actual terms Rashford was our most disappointing player , with Martial close behind. Neither hit the heights, except for Rashford getting off a side foot shot early doors and Martial having two good attempts saved by the keeper. Both are better players than they showed in this game, but for me neither is a 'lead- the- line' centre-forward who plays (and stays) in between the two goal posts. Neither are natural box-players/predators, however at their best both are exceptional at coming in off the wings with pace and running straight at defence.
The question is do we need both, because both favor the left side?
The question is do we need both, because both favor the left side?
If not Martial, then who do you replace him with that is available in Europe right now? Werner is off to Chelsea and also unproven in the PL. Aubameyang is 30, obviously not a long term solution. No other realistic target springs to my mind that would bring as much quality to the team as Martial.
It's worth noting that he's a different player with Pogba on the pitch. His movement, the tempo he plays at, the 1 touch link up play, it's clear how much confidence he gets from playing with the likes of Pobga and Bruno, instead of Pereira, Lingard etc.
He's what now? 23/24? His numbers are not staggering, but I guarantee we'd all clamour to sign him if he was playing abroad right now and clocking up slightly higher numbers in an inferior League.
I'd back him to hit 25 goals next season if we hang on to Pobga and with Bruno and the addition of Sancho if possible. In fact, I think both Rashford and Martial will hit 20+ next season. What Martial needs is the proper guidance and motivation, and it's frustrating as hell to say that, but getting the best out of him will more attest to Ole's 'soft management' skills, like we saw with Fergie down the years with players that needed that reassurance more than others..
It's worth noting that he's a different player with Pogba on the pitch. His movement, the tempo he plays at, the 1 touch link up play, it's clear how much confidence he gets from playing with the likes of Pobga and Bruno, instead of Pereira, Lingard etc.
He's what now? 23/24? His numbers are not staggering, but I guarantee we'd all clamour to sign him if he was playing abroad right now and clocking up slightly higher numbers in an inferior League.
I'd back him to hit 25 goals next season if we hang on to Pobga and with Bruno and the addition of Sancho if possible. In fact, I think both Rashford and Martial will hit 20+ next season. What Martial needs is the proper guidance and motivation, and it's frustrating as hell to say that, but getting the best out of him will more attest to Ole's 'soft management' skills, like we saw with Fergie down the years with players that needed that reassurance more than others..
Zlatan brought much much more to the team and was at the end of his career?
Sorry if I’ve misunderstood your comparison
I don’t want a player that needs anymore motivation than playing and winning titles with United.
I don’t think you can promise that we’d want him, he doesn’t stand out in games and his stats don’t stand out in tables?
I’d keep him as a squad player and bring in a better striker if this was an ideal world with a big cheque book.
I’ll admit he isn’t a pressing concern he’s maybe problem number 4 on the list and by the time we get to addressing that Greenwood will hopefully be fulfilling his potential and be 1st choice
Yeah, absolutely. As it is, we're quite easy to set up against. Martial is a huge talent, but we have to have another option over the course of a season. Ighalo isn't that really.
And he could never fit the whole season. But hey, give the lad another 6 seasons of 300k/wk. Maybe he'll turn good for us.
Part of the service problems, in my opinion, are also down to Martial. His movement is pretty mediocre at times.
The issue with comparing him to the likes of Sterling, Mane, Sane etc is that when they aren't scoring they're always contributing. Whether that's making runs, assisting team mates or just generally trying things. I feel like Martial is in a constant malaise until the ball hits his feet then he realises he's actually part of a game of football.
Exactly. It's also a striker's responsibility to take the initiative and be active to create chances for himself and his teammates. I was watching Villa vs Chelsea just now, Giroud was having a bad day and misplacing a lot of passes, but he kept alive, involved in lots of buildup plays and eventually got himself a goal. When you face a side who parks the bus, you need your strikers to create spaces and chances to unlock the defence, and I don't think Martial has done enough in this aspect.
Martial didn't really get a sniff in the first half, but then again, when you have Fred, McTominay & James on the field at the same time, it's not like we were bursting with creativity. Did himself no favors with his movement, so not trying to blame one side or the other. Almost as soon as Pogba came on, Martial had a couple nice chances, one of which took a top class Lloris save to keep him out. He got subbed off shortly after, as he looked a bit knackered (like most players across the entire league), but I think if he's playing with Pogba and Bruno on a consistent basis, he's going to rack up the goals. He has a pretty strong conversion rate over the course of the season, and with the team finally getting healthy and creating more chances, I think we'll see the best of him.
"I would say that we definitely need a centre-forward. Someone who, if a team is deep, is going to play deep and be on the end of those passes, crosses and score 25 goals," Giggs said two days ago, the one who proposed to bring in Martial at the first place.
Yeah I understand what you're saying, and unfortunately not every player has that same single minded, internal drive that the likes of Keano, Ronaldo etc had. That's just human nature, and a managers job should be to understand what players needs their buttons pushed, and what players already have that fire within them. Football has changed, it's hard to find players that will bleed for the badge these days, but you adapt.
Yes in an ideal world you'd obviously take a peak 09-11 Rooney up top instead of Martial, but I don't think there's players of that calibre available at the moment up top. The way I see it, there's not many players with the qualities that Martial has out there. I've seen enough from Anthony Martial to back him. The likes of De Bruyne and Salah are why I'm hesitant to write off players that are still in their early 20's, as Chelsea did. You look at the rise of Lewandowski for example, who was only making his name known for Dortmund at the age Martial is now. Aguero had only made his big move to City. There are very few players who are the finished article at the age of 23/24.
As you said, he's probably 4th on the list of priorities that we need to make a call on. RW, replacing Matic and finding a complementary partner for Maguire should be our top 3 priorities.
He got 2 chances in Spurs game. How many chances are you expecting a forward to get in a big game in which the opponent were mostly defending?