Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[Pyro19]

I think both Pogba and Bruno would have benefited much more from the introduction of Fred and taking off Matic after half time. It's vital to play Fred in such situations where we are facing a midfield that presses well as his energy is very important in winning the ball back in the center of the park. Removing both Pogba and Bruno and keeping on a completely knackered Matic killed any sort of control we had in midfield and we just surrendered possession effectively.

It's a one off and I'm sure he'll learn.

 

[bond19821982]

I imagine someone has already enlightened you, but just in case, he wasn't allowed to make the 5th sub, as they have to all be made within 3 substitutions.

Yes, read that. Thank you.

 

[bond19821982]

I always seem to have to correct your posts while you blast out incorrect statements.

​

Manager​	Games​	Wins​	Dras​	Losses​	GF​	GA​	GD​	Points​	PPG​
Mourinho​	93​	50​	26​	17​	151​	86​	+65​	176​	1.89​
Van Gaal​	76​	39​	19​	18​	111​	72​	+39​	136​	1.79​
Ole​	56​	28​	15​	13​	97​	60​	+37​	99​	1.77​
Moyes​	34​	17​	6​	11​	56​	40​	+16​	57​	1.68​

Except that the truth is different. Feel free to go back and check again.

I will wait.

 

[7even]

Our results since January is amazing and one draw against Soton doesn’t change that fact.

Ole needs at least two more seasons to finish his project. Yesterday was a good reminder how thin we’re in quality outside our starting eleven.

I will at least wait until the season is finished before I start to criticize our management. Remember! It still looking very good with three games left.

 

[Giggsyking]

I think it shows good character then, to be outclassed and say you drew and almost won.

You do realise that when Ole took the job, it was a rebuild?

At the time we were all like oh here we go another rebuild... same old stories.

Are you completely ignorant to see what has happened? We got rid of deadwood, team spirit is high, our signings have finally come off, we have played football that we have not seen in 7 years.

We got "outclassed" but had like 3 clear cut chances other than the goals. They had one clear cut chance apart from their goals.

That is improvement, go back to Liverpool last year when we had no idea where this team is going. We have come a long way since.

Maybe, but why cant we say the quality of the players we have keeps keeping us in games. I am not against Ole, Ole the player is one of my favorite players of all time at the club or in football in general. But I cant see that he has the quality required to coach the team. We cant say much about what happens in training because we cant see that part, who is responsible for what regarding tactics, but as someone said, he might need help from other assistant coach than Carrick and Mckenna who can add something to his tactical approach at different games. Off course I thank God we got rid of the toxic one Jose, at least I know Ole cares about the club. But if he fails to qualify to the champions league despite the fact he had spent a big sum (compared to Chelsea and Leicester) then we should be upgrading to a better manager like Poch.

 

[Giggsyking]

You just need to learn how to find a fair criticism rather than making a statement that wasn't even true.

Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. What I said was not untrue, we defended from the first minute.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. What I said was not untrue, we defended from the first minute.

Why is it has anything to do with being outclassed?

In 2009 CL final, Barcelona was also defending in the first minute. But in reality Barcelona outclassed us because it was only the first 10 minute they were defending. Similar thing happened with yesterday, we were defending in the first 5-10 minute, the rest when Pogba & Bruno were still on the pitch was us dominating. So what you mentioned isn't even true.

 

[romufc]

Maybe, but why cant we say the quality of the players we have keeps keeping us in games. I am not against Ole, Ole the player is one of my favorite players of all time at the club or in football in general. But I cant see that he has the quality required to coach the team. We cant say much about what happens in training because we cant see that part, who is responsible for what regarding tactics, but as someone said, he might need help from other assistant coach than Carrick and Mckenna who can add something to his tactical approach at different games. Off course I thank God we got rid of the toxic one Jose, at least I know Ole cares about the club. But if he fails to qualify to the champions league despite the fact he had spent a big sum (compared to Chelsea and Leicester) then we should be upgrading to a better manager like Poch.

How can we say the quality we have keeps us in games? When in reality we have had Mctominay, Fred, Lingard, Perreira, James playing most minutes and we were in games against Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Spurs, Leicester, Wolves, SU.

He doesnt have the quality to coach a team, yet we are now playing the best football since Fergie.. don't tell me players because Jose had the same spenditure and similar players in Martial, Rashford, Pogba, Lukaku, Mikhi, Sanchez, Shaw, Fred, Matic, Lindelof, DDG.

How comes some of our players are better under Ole? nothing to do with coaching?

Well he hasn't failed yet so there is no point talking about Poch. I rate Poch but Poch is not going to win us the league.

Poch had a CL final team and spend £150m and still got sacked so dont act as if a new manager will get us somewhere.

 

[Foxbatt]

He probably needs a better coach than Carrick and McKenna. A good coach that's good in tactics too. SAF had top quality coaches. Maybe he needs someone like Quiroz or someone like that.

 

[sammsky1]

Yeah, I can see that. The moment you run out of replies you go with points like " you shouldn't be here", come back later kinda points. Come back when you have better brownie points.
Fact is , as things stand Ole is still a rookie manager with a worse PPG than Moyes,Jose and LVG.

Must so hard for you to be associated with United! You should spend your valuable time on something you enjoy more.

Come back when following the club doesn’t cause you so much angst and you can fulfil your role as a supporter.

 

[sammsky1]

He probably needs a better coach than Carrick and McKenna. A good coach that's good in tactics too. SAF had top quality coaches. Maybe he needs someone like Quiroz or someone like that.

I’m also puzzled by this. Carrick and McKenna are both new at coaching. I’d have thought OGS could also bring in a coach who has experience and is at the top of the industry in terms of innovation and know how.

 

[romufc]

He probably needs a better coach than Carrick and McKenna. A good coach that's good in tactics too. SAF had top quality coaches. Maybe he needs someone like Quiroz or someone like that.

SAF had Mike Phelan, he is here as assistant manager.

You do realise McKenna is rated as one of the best coaches? Him and Carrick have also both had spells under Jose when he was here.

 

[bond19821982]

Must so hard for you to be associated with United! You should spend your valuable time on something you enjoy more.

Come back when following the club doesn’t cause you so much angst and you can fulfil your role as a supporter.

Yeah man, pretty hard you know !

 

[Raven]

Last night was a bit of a kick in the teeth but I'm not worried about Ole. I think it highlighted our lack of depth mainly.

 

[RedSky]

Except that the truth is different. Feel free to go back and check again.

I will wait.

I literally have it all in a database.

The only way you could argue differently is if you ignored his games when he was the caretaker. You can't on one hand have a grudge against the guy for our poor form at the end of last season only then to argue that none of those games count.

Further more after 57 PL games Ole and LVG both had 99 points, Jose on 110. LVGs GD was 31, Ole on 37 and Jose on 52.

LVG had already at this stage in his United career peaked. From this point on it was grim. He ended his United career with a GD of 39 and 136 points. Jose on the other hand flatlined on game 61. See graphs below. Currently we're on a clear up trend in both GD and PPG.

Spoiler: Graphs

 

[bond19821982]

I literally have it all in a database.

The only way you could argue differently is if you ignored his games when he was the caretaker. You can't on one hand have a grudge against the guy for our poor form at the end of last season only then to argue that none of those games count.

Further more after 57 PL games Ole and LVG both had 99 points, Jose on 110. LVGs GD was 31, Ole on 37 and Jose on 52.

LVG had already at this stage in his United career peaked. From this point on it was grim. He ended his United career with a GD of 39 and 136 points. Jose on the other hand flatlined on game 61. See graphs below. Currently we're on a clear up trend in both GD and PPG.

Spoiler: Graphs

You do know PPG is for season, right? Why would I be considering historical seasons to prove a point ? Going by your logic SAF would be behind lot of managers in epl.

To make it clear, we are on course for 64 points this season which would be the joint worst since SAF. Moyes had 1.72 and he didn't complete the season. He was on course for 65 points that season.

 

[mancan92]

Ole is to blame for not coming up with a plan to combat Southamptons press. He literally left pogba by himself running the midfield with absolutely no help. He's job is tactics as well as subs.

 

[roonster09]

I don't know what's the point of comparing points in different seasons. Treble year we won league with around 79 points, does that mean it was poor than Chelsea 2016-17 or Leicester 2015-16?

League position should be the only thing that should be considered. Every season is different.

Also Napoli had 90+ points few seasons ago, which is much more than most title winning points in 90s and 2000s in Serie A, doesn't make them better.

 

[bond19821982]

I don't know what's the point of comparing points in different seasons. Treble year we won league with around 79 points, does that mean it was poor than Chelsea 2016-17 or Leicester 2015-16?

League position should be the only thing that should be considered. Every season is different.

Also Napoli had 90+ points few seasons ago, which is much more than most title winning points in 90s and 2000s in Serie A, doesn't make them better.

First of all , the times are entirely different and things have gradually changed on the points required for title and CL places.
Secondly it was SAF, couldn't care less even if we are relegated as he will ensure we are back to top but thats not the case now.

If you still want to compare, we actually bettered our points tally in that time frame.
97 to 2000 - 77 ,77, 79,80 . Pretty much consistent at the top.

 

[roonster09]

First of all , the times are entirely different and things have gradually changed on the points required for title and CL places.
Secondly it was SAF, couldn't care less even if we are relegated as he will ensure we are back to top but thats not the case now.

If you still want to compare, we actually bettered our points tally in that time frame.
97 to 2000 - 77 ,77, 79,80 . Pretty much consistent at the top.

All that matters is league position, not how many points.

75 points and ending up in 5th is worst season than 65 points and 4th position. We have to compare to the teams in that season.

 

[RedSky]

You do know PPG is for season, right? Why would I be considering historical seasons to prove a point ? Going by your logic SAF would be behind lot of managers in epl.

To make it clear, we are on course for 64 points this season which would be the joint worst since SAF. Moyes had 1.72 and he didn't complete the season. He was on course for 65 points that season.

You're the one spreading mis information, i'm merely pointing out that you're full of shit. Again.

 

[bond19821982]

All that matters is league position, not how many points.

75 points and ending up in 5th is worst season than 65 points and 4th position. We have to compare to the teams in that season.

Now that's a different topic altogether. You are saying, you would happy to finish 40 points behind Liverpool for the next 3 years if it means that we are getting 4,3,2 positions .

I just see things differently. We just have to agree to disagree.

 

[roonster09]

Now that's a different topic altogether. You are saying, you would happy to finish 40 points behind Liverpool for the next 3 years if it means that we are getting 4,3,2 positions .

I just see things differently. We just have to agree to disagree.

I didn't say that, you just made that up.

 

[bond19821982]

You're the one spreading mis information, i'm merely pointing out that you're full of shit. Again.

You don't have an answer and so, going personal now. Go on mate. That was the reason why I didn't answer when you quoted last time as you simply retort to personal attacks when you run out of data points.

Bye !

 

[bond19821982]

I didn't say that, you just made that up.

Well, it implies that though ? You care only about league position and not our own points ?

 

[roonster09]

Well, it implies that though ? You care only about league position and not our own points ?

It doesn't imply that. Finishing 4th means you are 4th best team in the league that season, just because last season points needed to finish 4th was higher doesn't change the league standing this season.

If we have to make assumptions based on nothing, then I would say "you would be happy with never winning the league ever, all you need is 85-90 points every season".

 

[RedSky]

You don't have an answer and so, going personal now. Go on mate. That was the reason why I didn't answer when you quoted last time as you simply retort to personal attacks when you run out of data points.

Bye !

I just did have an answer... you're getting it wrong time and time again and when I point it out you just continue to get more statements wrong.

I just showed you David Moyes points per game (1.68) and then for some reason you decided to put the wrong figure in again.

You mention that following my rules Sir Alex would be below many managers, again... might surprise you... but thats wrong. Top 5 below:

Pep = 2.34
Sir Alex = 2.27
Klopp = 2.17
Conte = 2.15
Mancini = 2.04

I also haven't made any personal attacks, I'm just fed up with you posting in here and getting shit wrong and not being pulled up on it.

 

[Stacks]

I don't know what's the point of comparing points in different seasons. Treble year we won league with around 79 points, does that mean it was poor than Chelsea 2016-17 or Leicester 2015-16?

League position should be the only thing that should be considered. Every season is different.

Also Napoli had 90+ points few seasons ago, which is much more than most title winning points in 90s and 2000s in Serie A, doesn't make them better.

Agreed. Or you can look at home far off the top team/teams because it shows what is possible

 

[bond19821982]

It doesn't imply that. Finishing 4th means you are 4th best team in the league that season, just because last season points needed to finish 4th was higher doesn't change the league standing this season.

If we have to make assumptions based on nothing, then I would say "you would be happy with never winning the league ever, all you need is 85-90 points every season".

Point is simple - If we are finishing 4th or 3rd or 2nd but behind the top team by 40 points, there is nothing to be proud of. Yes, we have qualified for CL but it means nothing in grand scheme of things. All that matters is points on board and if we dont get better on that, then we haven't improved at all and that's what I am trying to explain.

Well,now if you win 85 -90 points and still end up 4th or 5th - it means the bar is high and we got to improve again. We haven't reached that level yet.

 

[CG1010]

I think both points per game and league position have some importance and relevance.. neither at the moment show Ole in a great light.

Which goes to show limitation of statistics beyond a certain point. With our own eyes we can see a good team getting built up. Just look at statistics of Klopp initially in Liverpool.

 

[bond19821982]

I just did have an answer... you're getting it wrong time and time again and when I point it out you just continue to get more statements wrong.

I just showed you David Moyes points per game (1.68) and then for some reason you decided to put the wrong figure in again.

You mention that following my rules Sir Alex would be below many managers, again... might surprise you... but thats wrong. Top 5 below:

Pep = 2.34
Sir Alex = 2.27
Klopp = 2.17
Conte = 2.15
Mancini = 2.04

I also haven't made any personal attacks, I'm just fed up with you posting in here and getting shit wrong and not being pulled up on it.

Again, you are adding up the historical seasons just to prove a point and thats not how it works for PPG. All it matters is the PPG per season per team.

I have no idea what's your source but mine is transfermarket

For Moyes, its 1.72 as per their site.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/david-moyes/profil/trainer/450

 

[RedSky]

Again, you are adding up the historical seasons just to prove a point and thats not how it works for PPG. All it matters is the PPG per season per team.

I have no idea what's your source but mine is transfermarket

For Moyes, its 1.72 as per their site.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/david-moyes/profil/trainer/450

It says 51 matches, so it's counting all competitions and not league form only. You can google league form and check yourself, it's 1.68, he lasted 34 games, we had 57 points when he was sacked.

 

[Zen86]

I think both points per game and league position have some importance and relevance.. neither show complete picture but neither at the moment doesn't show Ole in a great light.

Which goes to show limitation of statistics beyond a certain point. With our own eyes we can see a good team getting built up. Just look at statistics of Klopp initially in Liverpool.

People who point to statistics as the be all and end all for football are idiots.

 

[Leftback99]

Again, you are adding up the historical seasons just to prove a point and thats not how it works for PPG. All it matters is the PPG per season per team.

I have no idea what's your source but mine is transfermarket

For Moyes, its 1.72 as per their site.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/david-moyes/profil/trainer/450

If you really want to go on about PPG (strange obsession) what do you see as more likely next season?
We'll be closer to our second half of the season PPG of 1.94 or the first 19 games of 1.47?

For a statistical expert like yourself why is the past so relevant? Surely it's about seeing improvement in the PPG leading into next season?

 

[CG1010]

Comparing PPG for partial seasons = valid but comparing PPG for more than one season is invalid
@bond19821982 making up arbitrary rules on how points per game should be used to arrive at conclusion that Moyes had better record than Ole

 

[bond19821982]

It says 51 matches, so it's counting all competitions and not league form only. You can google league form and check yourself, it's 1.68, he lasted 34 games, we had 57 points when he was sacked.

Fair point, thanks .

The point still stands though . Ole is also at 1.68 now. Now if he wins all the remaining 3, he will be at 68 points at 1.78 PPG. We would be having our CL as well.

Not exactly an improvement but he would have earned one more year .

 

[roonster09]

Point is simple - If we are finishing 4th or 3rd or 2nd but behind the top team by 40 points, there is nothing to be proud of. Yes, we have qualified for CL but it means nothing in grand scheme of things. All that matters is points on board and if we dont get better on that, then we haven't improved at all and that's what I am trying to explain.

Well,now if you win 85 -90 points and still end up 4th or 5th - it means the bar is high and we got to improve again. We haven't reached that level yet.

So if we finish with 50 points and Champions get 51 points, is that ok?

Maybe you are happy with not winning league as long as we get good number of points, not everyone is.

Re bold part, I said not winning league ever again and end up getting 85-90 points all the time. Maybe you are happy with it, not everyone will be. Only thing that matters is winning the league, it's a step by step process, one of the step is being better than rest which is indicated by league position.

 

[roonster09]

Agreed. Or you can look at home far off the top team/teams because it shows what is possible

Yeah, that's something we should be doing. We have to close the gap, instead of worrying about how many points was needed for 4th in last few seasons. It's of no use, not even as useful as Phil Jones.

 

[bond19821982]

If you really want to go on about PPG (strange obsession) what do you see as more likely next season?
We'll be closer to our second half of the season PPG of 1.94 or the first 19 games of 1.47?

For a statistical expert like yourself why is the past so relevant? Surely it's about seeing improvement in the PPG leading into next season?

The whole PPG came because that's the only thing that matters or shows our improvements. That's our pure reflection of on field performances. All the rest (like chemistry, Dressing room unity) are relative, based on perception of individuals.

Past is not at all relevant. I am only focusing on what's current now. The current season (definitely you should consider the season as a whole and not just the purple patches?)

 

[bond19821982]

Comparing PPG for partial seasons = valid but comparing PPG for more than one season is invalid
@bond19821982 making up arbitrary rules on how points per game should be used to arrive at conclusion that Moyes had better record than Ole

Where have I compared partial seasons ?