Mainoldo
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We just brought AWB and Maguire. So who are you referring to?Have a good ball playing Goalie, good CB's and fullbacks who are also very good on the ball. We have absolutely none of that.
We just brought AWB and Maguire. So who are you referring to?Have a good ball playing Goalie, good CB's and fullbacks who are also very good on the ball. We have absolutely none of that.
Yeah, agreed. We probably looked most dangerous in the first half when Fernandes chipped one in behind Chelsea for dan James but the pass was over hit. We never tried that again.Pretty simple. You don't pass to what Mourinho calls "the first station pass".
An effective press is like a trap that releases when one presser pushes the player with the ball into a direction or avenue giving them a close or easy pass to a player who is being tee'd up for further pressing.
If you constantly just pass the ball five to ten yards to the nearest player because a) you're terrified of losing the ball b) not confident on the ball or c) haven't thought about a pass before you receive the ball (football intelligence) then you walk into the trap.
Vertical / breaking lines passes / forward and straight work. Going long works. Width in your own half does not work, you're just giving the opposition another defender (the touchline).
An example pattern is; GK to CB, CB to CB (my most hated pass), (pressure comes), CB rushes to LB (LB was marked and didn't want the ball) LB turns back towards goal and gives back to CB, CB is pressed and goes back to other CB or GK, who goes back to CB who then passes to RB and the RB does the same thing, turns backwards under pressure or hoofs up the line or loses the ball out of play conceding possession closer to our goal.
My idea (as a forum dweller not a football coach) is, NO EFFING SHORT BALLS UNLESS YOU GO BETWEEN THE OPPO CMs. That's it. Unless you're able to break the lines a la Roy Keane into the AM feet, don't bother. Go long. High press usually means either high back line (get in behind with pace) or gap between midfield and defence (second balls won in their last third, knock downs etc).
I would ban "width" in your own half when in possession as I personally think it is a waste of time, you don't stretch the play, you just move your possession closer to the edge of the playing area.
Then again, I am not a football coach.
I think a lot of this has to do with players taking up positions higher up the pitch to receive the ball properly. If they're playing on the shoulder or up against the CB, it's too easy to defend. They need to be in space for someone to be confident to play it to. I think Bruno is the only one I see that does this.Pretty simple. You don't pass to what Mourinho calls "the first station pass".
An effective press is like a trap that releases when one presser pushes the player with the ball into a direction or avenue giving them a close or easy pass to a player who is being tee'd up for further pressing.
If you constantly just pass the ball five to ten yards to the nearest player because a) you're terrified of losing the ball b) not confident on the ball or c) haven't thought about a pass before you receive the ball (football intelligence) then you walk into the trap.
Vertical / breaking lines passes / forward and straight work. Going long works. Width in your own half does not work, you're just giving the opposition another defender (the touchline).
An example pattern is; GK to CB, CB to CB (my most hated pass), (pressure comes), CB rushes to LB (LB was marked and didn't want the ball) LB turns back towards goal and gives back to CB, CB is pressed and goes back to other CB or GK, who goes back to CB who then passes to RB and the RB does the same thing, turns backwards under pressure or hoofs up the line or loses the ball out of play conceding possession closer to our goal.
My idea (as a forum dweller not a football coach) is, NO EFFING SHORT BALLS UNLESS YOU GO BETWEEN THE OPPO CMs. That's it. Unless you're able to break the lines a la Roy Keane into the AM feet, don't bother. Go long. High press usually means either high back line (get in behind with pace) or gap between midfield and defence (second balls won in their last third, knock downs etc).
I would ban "width" in your own half when in possession as I personally think it is a waste of time, you don't stretch the play, you just move your possession closer to the edge of the playing area.
Then again, I am not a football coach.
That's how you do it, two touches football.Do what we did to Bournemouth. Quick passing from the back and try to get the ball to the front 4 as quickly as possible. Literally just 2 touches per player, be direct and bypass their press with quick short passes and let the front 4 do their thing.
Yeah but if you keep making their def think that the ball is coming up over their heads, they drop back. They drop back and the midfield and front either drop back to close the distance between the two units OR they don't, leaving big space in the middle.I think a lot of this has to do with players taking up positions higher up the pitch to receive the ball properly. If they're playing on the shoulder or up against the CB, it's too easy to defend. They need to be in space for someone to be confident to play it to. I think Bruno is the only one I see that does this.
This too. Hard but no dwelling on the ball.That's how you do it, two touches football.
I’d agree with lots of what you’ve said.Pretty simple. You don't pass to what Mourinho calls "the first station pass".
An effective press is like a trap that releases when one presser pushes the player with the ball into a direction or avenue giving them a close or easy pass to a player who is being tee'd up for further pressing.
If you constantly just pass the ball five to ten yards to the nearest player because a) you're terrified of losing the ball b) not confident on the ball or c) haven't thought about a pass before you receive the ball (football intelligence) then you walk into the trap.
Vertical / breaking lines passes / forward and straight work. Going long works. Width in your own half does not work, you're just giving the opposition another defender (the touchline).
An example pattern is; GK to CB, CB to CB (my most hated pass), (pressure comes), CB rushes to LB (LB was marked and didn't want the ball) LB turns back towards goal and gives back to CB, CB is pressed and goes back to other CB or GK, who goes back to CB who then passes to RB and the RB does the same thing, turns backwards under pressure or hoofs up the line or loses the ball out of play conceding possession closer to our goal.
My idea (as a forum dweller not a football coach) is, NO EFFING SHORT BALLS UNLESS YOU GO BETWEEN THE OPPO CMs. That's it. Unless you're able to break the lines a la Roy Keane into the AM feet, don't bother. Go long. High press usually means either high back line (get in behind with pace) or gap between midfield and defence (second balls won in their last third, knock downs etc).
I would ban "width" in your own half when in possession as I personally think it is a waste of time, you don't stretch the play, you just move your possession closer to the edge of the playing area.
Then again, I am not a football coach.
Oh yeah, it's gotta be a mix. So where you have James running in behind, Martial or Bruno yesterday, drops to be an option to feet and like you say the defence has to make a decision because they should be moving as a unit. I feel like we only seem to do one and not all simultaneously.Yeah but if you keep making their def think that the ball is coming up over their heads, they drop back. They drop back and the midfield and front either drop back to close the distance between the two units OR they don't, leaving big space in the middle.
But ffs don't try and have the human bobble head try to channel his inner Busquets when pressed!
Agree to an extent. Our forward passing has improved to break lines but the intricate triangles need work.By studying teams who can. If our coaches are incapable of getting our team to evade the press they should study videos of Nagelmann's teams. After all he didn't have players as good as ours and still made it work.
Truth is we're an average passing team and until that changes we'll be poor at beating the high press.
It's a weird one, because if you'd ask me before lockdown and even 3 or 4 weeks ago, I'd have told you that we were infinitely better at playing out from the back and that we were really dealing better with the press than from before - we easily handled City's press, for example.Ok, last 3 games we’ve looked a little vulnerable against the system relying on individual brilliance to get us out of trouble. That’s a positive but moving forward against quality players we can’t rely on that all the time.
What tactics should we employ to counter that? What players should we go for?
I’m no transfer or player expert so don’t really know who’s out there that will give us the quality...oh I do know all about Sancho but that’s just one. I’ve felt we need 3 at least.
We just brought AWB and Maguire. So who are you referring to?
Glad you posted this. I have been thinking along these lines as well. I have watched a few analyses of Man City's games and they are nearly always able to overcome the opponents' press by moving their players around to create space and/or a numerical advantage. I think United under Ole play with a fairly basic, loose structure, and too much is left to the players' own imagination and abilities as compared to other teams whose managers impose a more defined structure on the way they play. The natural ball-playing abilities of our players are certainly a limiting factor, but I believe a better structure to our play can compensate to a greater degree than we see now. Would also help improve the speed of passing by reducing the players' need to think on the pitch.Most people seem to think it's a question of ability on the ball, which to be fair isn't a stupid suggestion as it always helps, but I think the movement of the team is even more important. When you see really well drilled teams they are able to almost always create a spare man with their movement. Their players don't need acrobatic skills to avoid the pressure, they receive passes at favorable angles that allow them to put their body between the ball and the pressuring player and then they can just pass it to a free team mate.
I mean look at what Norwich did to City at the beginning of the season and they didnt exactly have world beaters playing out from the back.
He’s not. Which is why I’m always confused. We keep asking players to do things they can’t do. Fair enough he wanted a ball playing team from out the back. So why buy AWB? Was his plan to always get rid of DDG as he can’t play from the back and Shaw as very sound as he is. Is he also looking to be replaced? He passing isn’t amazing either.You think AWB is good on the ball? He's a great defender but trying to pass through the press or pick out a ball down the channel is a different story and i am referring to Maguire, suspect as hell since the restart, especially when pressed.
Yes, but United develop, train and try to buy players who can play with their own imagination. Its been the case since Busby, which is why United had so much trouble with Leeds under Revie. If you get a more 'method' manager, and we've tried some of those recently, they lose half the players who just aren't able to play that way. The way United have tried to deal with this is to get such good players that they will improvise their way through a method team. This team is short of such players who need character as well as skill, which is one reason Ole openly says it will take time. But patience is not an attribute most have these days.Glad you posted this. I have been thinking along these lines as well. I have watched a few analyses of Man City's games and they are nearly always able to overcome the opponents' press by moving their players around to create space and/or a numerical advantage. I think United under Ole play with a fairly basic, loose structure, and too much is left to the players' own imagination and abilities as compared to other teams whose managers impose a more defined structure on the way they play. The natural ball-playing abilities of our players are certainly a limiting factor, but I believe a better structure to our play can compensate to a greater degree than we see now. Would also help improve the speed of passing by reducing the players' need to think on the pitch.
He’s not. Which is why I’m always confused. We keep asking players to do things they can’t do. Fair enough he wanted a ball playing team from out the back. So why buy AWB? Was his plan to always get rid of DDG as he can’t play from the back and Shaw as very sound as he is. Is he also looking to be replaced? He passing isn’t amazing either.
It's a mix of several things that we have all trained for since we were 5-6 years old, if you played organized football. The list would be the following:Most people seem to think it's a question of ability on the ball, which to be fair isn't a stupid suggestion as it always helps, but I think the movement of the team is even more important. When you see really well drilled teams they are able to almost always create a spare man with their movement. Their players don't need acrobatic skills to avoid the pressure, they receive passes at favorable angles that allow them to put their body between the ball and the pressuring player and then they can just pass it to a free team mate.
I mean look at what Norwich did to City at the beginning of the season and they didnt exactly have world beaters playing out from the back.
You can add Fred and Mctomminy to that list.Maguire, AWB, Matic & Pogba are specifically targeted by pressing teams because they take 10 touches to do what they could do in 2 or 3. Wan-Bissaka & Maguire in particular. Watch the intensity Southampton pressed Shaw & Lindelof compared with AWB & Maguire, it was noticeable.
But does that imply that to beat "method" teams, we generally need to have better players than them? It does not seem a viable way forward for us when we're up against teams like Pep's City who are both "method" and super talented.Yes, but United develop, train and try to buy players who can play with their own imagination. Its been the case since Busby, which is why United had so much trouble with Leeds under Revie. If you get a more 'method' manager, and we've tried some of those recently, they lose half the players who just aren't able to play that way. The way United have tried to deal with this is to get such good players that they will improvise their way through a method team. This team is short of such players who need character as well as skill, which is one reason Ole openly says it will take time. But patience is not an attribute most have these days.
Two very valid points which I feel are the main issues atm.It's a weird one, because if you'd ask me before lockdown and even 3 or 4 weeks ago, I'd have told you that we were infinitely better at playing out from the back and that we were really dealing better with the press than from before - we easily handled City's press, for example.
But the last week or so has seen us regress in this aspect, which seems to tell me that it might be a fitness and tiredness issue rather than a technical one. The best we can do right now is to continue working hard in training and get it right - be it spacing, being proactive, identifying the passing lanes, etc etc.
Alternatively, it might also be that our personnel in crucial positions are not sufficiently press-resistant, and it's something that can only be fixed through the transfer market.
By finding Centre backs who are good enough to pass forward under high pressure.I”ve honestly been dissapointed by the ball playing ability of Maguire and Lindelof....If they arenot good enough to pass out from the back then we should sign new CB’s...Ok, last 3 games we’ve looked a little vulnerable against the system relying on individual brilliance to get us out of trouble. That’s a positive but moving forward against quality players we can’t rely on that all the time.
What tactics should we employ to counter that? What players should we go for?
I’m no transfer or player expert so don’t really know who’s out there that will give us the quality...oh I do know all about Sancho but that’s just one. I’ve felt we need 3 at least.
Totally agree. Nagelsmann is the best one out there who we could possibly get.But does that imply that to beat "method" teams, we generally need to have better players than them? It does not seem a viable way forward for us when we're up against teams like Pep's City who are both "method" and super talented.
Logically, given two equally talented teams, the more organised team will be superior to the other as the former is less dependent on individual performance and form. I don't think we can afford to turn away from "method" just because two of our previous "method" managers failed. LVG was out-of-date, dogmatic, and bought the wrong players. Mourinho was out-of-date, dogmatic, bought the wrong players, and toxic on top of that. We just have to choose more wisely if we ever move on from Ole.
This has been my point on maguire. If he isn't fast enough, and isn't good enough on the ball, then why on earth did we pay a record fee for him? And the fact most people think we need a new CB is damning.By finding Centre backs who are good enough to pass forward under high pressure.I”ve honestly been dissapointed by the ball playing ability of Maguire and Lindelof....If they arenot good enough to pass out from the back then we should sign new CB’s...
Good post. Informative. Thank you. I’ll be looking at things differently.Pretty simple. You don't pass to what Mourinho calls "the first station pass".
An effective press is like a trap that releases when one presser pushes the player with the ball into a direction or avenue giving them a close or easy pass to a player who is being tee'd up for further pressing.
If you constantly just pass the ball five to ten yards to the nearest player because a) you're terrified of losing the ball b) not confident on the ball or c) haven't thought about a pass before you receive the ball (football intelligence) then you walk into the trap.
Vertical / breaking lines passes / forward and straight work. Going long works. Width in your own half does not work, you're just giving the opposition another defender (the touchline).
An example pattern is; GK to CB, CB to CB (my most hated pass), (pressure comes), CB rushes to LB (LB was marked and didn't want the ball) LB turns back towards goal and gives back to CB, CB is pressed and goes back to other CB or GK, who goes back to CB who then passes to RB and the RB does the same thing, turns backwards under pressure or hoofs up the line or loses the ball out of play conceding possession closer to our goal.
My idea (as a forum dweller not a football coach) is, NO EFFING SHORT BALLS UNLESS YOU GO BETWEEN THE OPPO CMs. That's it. Unless you're able to break the lines a la Roy Keane into the AM feet, don't bother. Go long. High press usually means either high back line (get in behind with pace) or gap between midfield and defence (second balls won in their last third, knock downs etc).
I would ban "width" in your own half when in possession as I personally think it is a waste of time, you don't stretch the play, you just move your possession closer to the edge of the playing area.
Then again, I am not a football coach.
I mean this is all obvious stuff to everyone but man utd fans. For who'm the solution is always BUY MORE PLAYERS.Most people seem to think it's a question of ability on the ball, which to be fair isn't a stupid suggestion as it always helps, but I think the movement of the team is even more important. When you see really well drilled teams they are able to almost always create a spare man with their movement. Their players don't need acrobatic skills to avoid the pressure, they receive passes at favorable angles that allow them to put their body between the ball and the pressuring player and then they can just pass it to a free team mate.
I mean look at what Norwich did to City at the beginning of the season and they didnt exactly have world beaters playing out from the back.
You called it right. We are a counter attacking team who also wants to control possession, whilst being an exciting attacking team (United way). Probably explains why we are both confused.Which might lead you to believe Ole didn't know how he wanted his team to play while signing these players or it was all Ed's signings and Ole didn't have much of a say. I still couldn't really tell you what the style of play of this United side is tbh. Are we counter attacking, but at the same time it feels like Ole wants us/a team to dominate possession. What are we?
Yes but you lose it at the other end of the pitch and not at the edge of your box so you're not immediately in danger. And if you kick it down the pitch and lose it, you can now do your own press and watch them try to get out of it.Playing it long means that you are going to lose the ball even more. Have you guys checked the aerial duel percentages? There is a reason why dominant teams play from the back.
Not saying you're wrong but my god what a depressing thread.Simple answer yesterday would have been to start Ighalo and hit him long.
You rarely lose possession at the edge of your box but you will lose the ball around 50 percent of the time if you lump it forward. It's a terrible idea, particularly when you play against a team that is good at retaining possession.Yes but you lose it at the other end of the pitch and not at the edge of your box so you're not immediately in danger. And if you kick it down the pitch and lose it, you can now do your own press and watch them try to get out of it.
Also dominant teams have players that are press resistant agile and really good with ball at feet in all positions of the back 4 and DM. We don't have that at the moment. You can target certain players (Matic, AWB) and possession will be turned over.