We just brought AWB and Maguire. So who are you referring to?
How Do Utd Beat The High Press?
- Thread starter Inigo Montoya
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Do what we did to Bournemouth. Quick passing from the back and try to get the ball to the front 4 as quickly as possible. Literally just 2 touches per player, be direct and bypass their press with quick short passes and let the front 4 do their thing.
Yeah, agreed. We probably looked most dangerous in the first half when Fernandes chipped one in behind Chelsea for dan James but the pass was over hit. We never tried that again.
I think a lot of this has to do with players taking up positions higher up the pitch to receive the ball properly. If they're playing on the shoulder or up against the CB, it's too easy to defend. They need to be in space for someone to be confident to play it to. I think Bruno is the only one I see that does this.
That's how you do it, two touches football.
By studying teams who can. If our coaches are incapable of getting our team to evade the press they should study videos of Nagelmann's teams. After all he didn't have players as good as ours and still made it work.
Truth is we're an average passing team and until that changes we'll be poor at beating the high press.
Truth is we're an average passing team and until that changes we'll be poor at beating the high press.
Yeah but if you keep making their def think that the ball is coming up over their heads, they drop back. They drop back and the midfield and front either drop back to close the distance between the two units OR they don't, leaving big space in the middle.
But ffs don't try and have the human bobble head try to channel his inner Busquets when pressed!
This too. Hard but no dwelling on the ball.
Chelsea hoofed the ball to Giroud most of the time and took over from there. We should have done the same tactic with ighalo. James and Rashford both cannot hold the ball like a typical center forward. Stuipd decision by the manager yesterday to persist playing out from the back.
I’d agree with lots of what you’ve said.
Our players only seem to be thinking one pass ahead. There’s no movement apart from one player looking for the ball in midfield. To be effective the other players have to move to create space before the first pass has has even taken place, and it should be something that is practiced a lot because it needs to be instinctive (the same as pressing, which through no coincidence we can’t implement correctly either).
Once you beat the press a few times initially, the other team will naturally drop back a bit.
Oh yeah, it's gotta be a mix. So where you have James running in behind, Martial or Bruno yesterday, drops to be an option to feet and like you say the defence has to make a decision because they should be moving as a unit. I feel like we only seem to do one and not all simultaneously.
Agree to an extent. Our forward passing has improved to break lines but the intricate triangles need work.
Also think there is a disconnect at times with Bruno pushing up and big gaps between him and Pogba for example, which doesn’t allow for triangles to be played around the press itself.
There were examples against Southampton where we got behind the press by playing more quickly out to the wings and back through midfield, it just needs work and more cohesion between our three midfielders.
Stop trying to play through the middle from so deep, play it out to the flanks quickly and then push the ball back into midfield. We need to get Pogba and Matic on the ball facing play, not on the half turn where they can get pinched.
Also, sometimes it's just better to knock it up the touchline and play for territory. Our game management is naive at times. It was obvious against Southampton we were eventually going to get robbed and concede, you could see it coming from a mile off.
On one hand, you commend Ole for having belief in a certain way, on the other hand you need to recognise when you are being put under pressure. Over the top to Rashford and Martial isn't the worst option either. We need a bit of variation in our play.
We also play to passively at times to play quick football from the back. Moving the ball quicker has to be something we work on, and is not dependent on personnel, but a change in mindset and intent. So many of our passes are sideways and underhit, putting the receiver on the back foot instantly. We need to play with more belief and conviction in what we are doing.
Also, sometimes it's just better to knock it up the touchline and play for territory. Our game management is naive at times. It was obvious against Southampton we were eventually going to get robbed and concede, you could see it coming from a mile off.
On one hand, you commend Ole for having belief in a certain way, on the other hand you need to recognise when you are being put under pressure. Over the top to Rashford and Martial isn't the worst option either. We need a bit of variation in our play.
We also play to passively at times to play quick football from the back. Moving the ball quicker has to be something we work on, and is not dependent on personnel, but a change in mindset and intent. So many of our passes are sideways and underhit, putting the receiver on the back foot instantly. We need to play with more belief and conviction in what we are doing.
It's a weird one, because if you'd ask me before lockdown and even 3 or 4 weeks ago, I'd have told you that we were infinitely better at playing out from the back and that we were really dealing better with the press than from before - we easily handled City's press, for example.
But the last week or so has seen us regress in this aspect, which seems to tell me that it might be a fitness and tiredness issue rather than a technical one. The best we can do right now is to continue working hard in training and get it right - be it spacing, being proactive, identifying the passing lanes, etc etc.
Alternatively, it might also be that our personnel in crucial positions are not sufficiently press-resistant, and it's something that can only be fixed through the transfer market.
You think AWB is good on the ball? He's a great defender but trying to pass through the press or pick out a ball down the channel is a different story and i am referring to Maguire, suspect as hell since the restart, especially when pressed.
I have watched United teams since the early 60s. Not once have I seen a United team that can play well against a concerted energetic, agressive press. And United have had some great teams with some great players. I think the problem is that United don't develop , train or even buy players who are naturally suited to play a press. So in training its never practiced 'against' by players good at it. Probably over all that period the nearest team that had some midfielders suited to play against a press was the Keane/Ince era. There was a lot of bite in that midfield.
Chelsea's front 3 won the game, never stopped working. United's front 3 were absent without leave. No-one for the rest to aim a pass at.
Chelsea's front 3 won the game, never stopped working. United's front 3 were absent without leave. No-one for the rest to aim a pass at.
Glad you posted this. I have been thinking along these lines as well. I have watched a few analyses of Man City's games and they are nearly always able to overcome the opponents' press by moving their players around to create space and/or a numerical advantage. I think United under Ole play with a fairly basic, loose structure, and too much is left to the players' own imagination and abilities as compared to other teams whose managers impose a more defined structure on the way they play. The natural ball-playing abilities of our players are certainly a limiting factor, but I believe a better structure to our play can compensate to a greater degree than we see now. Would also help improve the speed of passing by reducing the players' need to think on the pitch.
We’d need a new goalkeeper, centre back & right back. Only Lindelof & Shaw right now are semi capable of dealing with it.
I think we are overblowing this to be honest. We've dealt with City, Chelsea and even Liverpool to an extent this season. The last thing we were questioning was 'how do we beat the low block' and in the end we have overcome this. That doesn't mean that we'll overcome it every time we face it but we have clearly progressed. So what we really need to do is be patient and trust in the progress we are making. Pep and Klopp both took time to get to where they are right now and all signs point to the fact that we are finally going in the right direction but its a marathon and not a sprint. We're always going to have games where we struggle with certain things.
The one thing I'll take from the Chelsea and Southampton games is that our squad depth isn't good enough. We need at least three more first team players but we also need a giant clear out of players who shouldn't be here and replace them with players who can be trusted to do a job. This is where the importance of an O'Shea or a Park is vital.
The one thing I'll take from the Chelsea and Southampton games is that our squad depth isn't good enough. We need at least three more first team players but we also need a giant clear out of players who shouldn't be here and replace them with players who can be trusted to do a job. This is where the importance of an O'Shea or a Park is vital.
He’s not. Which is why I’m always confused. We keep asking players to do things they can’t do. Fair enough he wanted a ball playing team from out the back. So why buy AWB? Was his plan to always get rid of DDG as he can’t play from the back and Shaw as very sound as he is. Is he also looking to be replaced? He passing isn’t amazing either.
Yes, but United develop, train and try to buy players who can play with their own imagination. Its been the case since Busby, which is why United had so much trouble with Leeds under Revie. If you get a more 'method' manager, and we've tried some of those recently, they lose half the players who just aren't able to play that way. The way United have tried to deal with this is to get such good players that they will improvise their way through a method team. This team is short of such players who need character as well as skill, which is one reason Ole openly says it will take time. But patience is not an attribute most have these days.
To beat the high press, the passing has to be a lot quicker, slicker and needs to be played out of the back a lot better than it currently has been. We definitely spend too much time touching unnecessary touches. Fine if the resulting ball ends up going somewhere productive, but more often than not it doesn't.
By the time we've taken an extra 3 or 4 or even 5 touches, the opposition has closed us down, our players have stopped moving and the passing channels have been blocked. So, it creates that loop.
Player receives ball > player takes a touch and dwells on ball > opposition closes us down, blocking passing angles > player takes an extra touch > opposition block further channels > player takes an extra touch > our own players struggle to find space > player either loses the ball or it goes backwards
If it's happening too often, then it has to be something that needs addressing on our end, and not just expecting teams to turn up and not press us. Of course they're going to attempt to press us if they think that it's going to result in a more favourable result for them. If it's worked for one team, it may work for another. So, it absolutely needs to be addressed by our coaching staff. Quicker passing, better movement, better and quicker decision making, and moving the ball on to the more dangerous attacking players as best we can. I bet if we look back at our better performances, we probably had quicker passing in those games. It also tires the opposition out if they have to keep doing constant pressing and are getting no luck, which is also quite demoralising for them.
By the time we've taken an extra 3 or 4 or even 5 touches, the opposition has closed us down, our players have stopped moving and the passing channels have been blocked. So, it creates that loop.
Player receives ball > player takes a touch and dwells on ball > opposition closes us down, blocking passing angles > player takes an extra touch > opposition block further channels > player takes an extra touch > our own players struggle to find space > player either loses the ball or it goes backwards
If it's happening too often, then it has to be something that needs addressing on our end, and not just expecting teams to turn up and not press us. Of course they're going to attempt to press us if they think that it's going to result in a more favourable result for them. If it's worked for one team, it may work for another. So, it absolutely needs to be addressed by our coaching staff. Quicker passing, better movement, better and quicker decision making, and moving the ball on to the more dangerous attacking players as best we can. I bet if we look back at our better performances, we probably had quicker passing in those games. It also tires the opposition out if they have to keep doing constant pressing and are getting no luck, which is also quite demoralising for them.
Which might lead you to believe Ole didn't know how he wanted his team to play while signing these players or it was all Ed's signings and Ole didn't have much of a say. I still couldn't really tell you what the style of play of this United side is tbh. Are we counter attacking, but at the same time it feels like Ole wants us/a team to dominate possession. What are we?
Maguire, AWB, Matic & Pogba are specifically targeted by pressing teams because they take 10 touches to do what they could do in 2 or 3. Wan-Bissaka & Maguire in particular. Watch the intensity Southampton pressed Shaw & Lindelof compared with AWB & Maguire, it was noticeable.
It's a mix of several things that we have all trained for since we were 5-6 years old, if you played organized football. The list would be the following:
- Two touches football(Control-Pass-Move).
- Always try to create triangles, it essentially means that three players can't be on a straight line, their is a need for depth, for United it's particularly true for our CBs and fullbacks who for some unknown reason tend to put themselves on a line when they are on the ball.
Then there are things that are purely technical:
- The passer needs to put the ball in a place that is the easier to control and faster to release, too often our players just lump the ball toward a teammate with no care for his stronger foot or where the opposition is.
- Oriented first touches, this applies to Maguire and AWB in particular, the reason they need that many touches is because they don't orient their first touches in a way that allows the next touch to be a pass, the ball is too often to close to their feet, too close to the opponent or on their wrong foot.
You can add Fred and Mctomminy to that list.
The only player I feel comfortable with when under a press is Bruno.
The rest give me anxiety.
Time and patience for a start. Accepting we'll mess up a few times whilst we get good at it.
I think the role of the keeper in this situation is understated too.
The keeper has to be an 'out'. The ability to roll it back to the keeper to play a good long pass is very important.
Its early days for this team and to add to that they are all bloody tired at the moment doesnt help.
We've demonstrated we can do it well plenty of times over the season, I'm not convinced its the big drama people are making out.
I think the role of the keeper in this situation is understated too.
The keeper has to be an 'out'. The ability to roll it back to the keeper to play a good long pass is very important.
Its early days for this team and to add to that they are all bloody tired at the moment doesnt help.
We've demonstrated we can do it well plenty of times over the season, I'm not convinced its the big drama people are making out.
But does that imply that to beat "method" teams, we generally need to have better players than them? It does not seem a viable way forward for us when we're up against teams like Pep's City who are both "method" and super talented.
Logically, given two equally talented teams, the more organised team will be superior to the other as the former is less dependent on individual performance and form. I don't think we can afford to turn away from "method" just because two of our previous "method" managers failed. LVG was out-of-date, dogmatic, and bought the wrong players. Mourinho was out-of-date, dogmatic, bought the wrong players, and toxic on top of that. We just have to choose more wisely if we ever move on from Ole.
Two very valid points which I feel are the main issues atm.
By finding Centre backs who are good enough to pass forward under high pressure.I”ve honestly been dissapointed by the ball playing ability of Maguire and Lindelof....If they arenot good enough to pass out from the back then we should sign new CB’s...
Totally agree. Nagelsmann is the best one out there who we could possibly get.
We need more players to come to the ball rather than running away from it. We need to draw pressing players to spaces on the pitch we aren't going to pass the ball. If all we do is try to run away and get in behind when the press is on, it's forcing our players on the ball to make long ball passes which don't have a high success rate. This leads to the opposition getting the ball back unnecessarily and having us without the ball and on the backfoot regularly.
Bruno's possibly the best passer in the team and the last two games he's had to attempt too many long balls in behind or through the lines which have been cut out due to the difficulty of the pass. If he's struggling to make the passesn it's no surprise that no one else can, seems like an obvious coaching point for our backroom staff but we havent seen anything implemented yet.
Bruno's possibly the best passer in the team and the last two games he's had to attempt too many long balls in behind or through the lines which have been cut out due to the difficulty of the pass. If he's struggling to make the passesn it's no surprise that no one else can, seems like an obvious coaching point for our backroom staff but we havent seen anything implemented yet.
This has been my point on maguire. If he isn't fast enough, and isn't good enough on the ball, then why on earth did we pay a record fee for him? And the fact most people think we need a new CB is damning.
Having said that, we look best at playing out from the back when the CBs split and allow Matic to have the ball from there ie when the CBs aren't actually involved in playing out from the back
We need players more suited to it, it’s that simple. If you could coach it then Pep wouldn’t have had to spend half a billion buying players for City that could do it. And even then it’s not easy and a team with a good high press can cause problems.
Good post. Informative. Thank you. I’ll be looking at things differently.
I mean this is all obvious stuff to everyone but man utd fans. For who'm the solution is always BUY MORE PLAYERS.
You called it right. We are a counter attacking team who also wants to control possession, whilst being an exciting attacking team (United way). Probably explains why we are both confused.
Someone at the club needs to decide what they want to do.
Yes but you lose it at the other end of the pitch and not at the edge of your box so you're not immediately in danger. And if you kick it down the pitch and lose it, you can now do your own press and watch them try to get out of it.
Also dominant teams have players that are press resistant agile and really good with ball at feet in all positions of the back 4 and DM. We don't have that at the moment. You can target certain players (Matic, AWB) and possession will be turned over.
Not saying you're wrong but my god what a depressing thread.
You rarely lose possession at the edge of your box but you will lose the ball around 50 percent of the time if you lump it forward. It's a terrible idea, particularly when you play against a team that is good at retaining possession.