Ironically - Guardiola finished 15 Points behind Chelsea in his first season. Liverpool in the same season (Klopps first full season) finished 18 Points behind.
So with your logic - both of them should be sacked
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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So with your logic - both of them should be sacked
The thing is, accurately measuring one season with another is a near-impossibility due to the sheer number of variables separating them.
Changes in management, incoming transfers & outgoing transfers, players improving or declining, rule changes (VAR), improvements in training techniques & facility upgrades, and many more that I fail to mention.
Take this season as an example: If we measure a team's ability based purely on the number of points they accumulated over the course of a season, then this Liverpool side is the best of all time. Bar none. Would you say that is an accurate assessment?
I think you make a fair point here. But since you are talking in absolutes, I’ll give you a perspective on why you might be wrong about Ole not getting to 85 points.
Let’s just look at the final 19 games of this 19/20 PL season. We collected 38 points.
Based on Bruno’s arrival, while also benefitting from the Covid break, which got us Pogba & Rashford back playing again, I’d say 38 points is a decent points total. Keeping in mind, the last few games after lockdown was over, were played way too frequently. So in this situation, injuries was no excuse, but lack of squad depth did lead to exertion in our starters.
But next season, 38 points should be our minimum expectation going into the first half of it. In fact, if we acquire a few key cogs such as Sancho and 1/2 more to improve our squad (and it’s depth), while also enjoying longer breaks between games, we should expect more than 38.
Let’s say 42.5? Which is technically half of your absolute minimum requirement.
Hence why I found your post interesting because we may still not achieve 85 points if we’re not able to improve the squad or/& if we face injuries (specially to our core, that too at critical points of the season like we did this season), but to say Ole isn’t good enough to achieve this points total, is a tad bit biased.
It is Ole, who was in charge of this season, and while it was fairly unjust to judge him for the first half due to numerous reasons that I’m sure you’re aware of, we duly expected the performances of the second half as bare minimum with the squad available to him, which he delivered. 38 points.
If you can prove me factually that Ole isn’t projected to secure a similar points total or higher, with a similar or improved situation (squad, injuries), then I’m all ears.
Sacking Fergie is a no brainier
Nice pivot to every year though but that wasn't the question asked and not what you are asking of the current manager.
The question was would you have sacked Fergie each year he didn't reach the magical 85pts target.
Nope... that is the surface only...
League points indicate the competitiveness of the league ... This year the league is super competitive for every team except Liverpool.
All the Top 5 are at historic low points (or at least 5 years back). Who is responsible for that?
There is a reason.. Go back and think about it.
League points indicate the competitiveness of the league ... This year the league is super competitive for every team except Liverpool.
All the Top 5 are at historic low points (or at least 5 years back). Who is responsible for that?
There is a reason.. Go back and think about it.
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Our aim ought to be win 25 games next season. With another 2 maybe 3 top signings this is do-able. 18-12-8 was the seasons finish and we lost the 8 before Bruno turned up. If we can turn half those draws into wins and cut out stupid losses to the likes of Palace, West Ham, Watford, Newcastle, Bournemouth and Burnley. Games we should have won, we easily make top 3 and make big strides in closing the gap on the top 2. This would be a massive step towards challenging for the title the season after, especially with another summer transfer window as well. Ole has shown he hadnt any faith with the bench, so couldnt give the first 11 any breathing space, but 2-3 top signings could make all the difference.
This season - OGS basically had to make due with what he had and some new key-players in. Next season - he realistically will have brought in 6-7 players of his players, and naturally by then we need to improve. So even if we end third with 66 Points next season - that is not good enough, maybe not bad enough to warrant being sacked but he certainly will have less valid excuses.
But to speak in absolute terms - that we need a third place or 85 Points or he should be sacked - is stupid. We could theoretically end 5th next season with 77 Points - just 8-10 Points from the League Winners, of course he shouldn't be sacked then.
But if we get 2-3 quality players in - we will get more than 66 Points next season - I am 100% certain. But maybe it's too early for some of our players to get to 85 - we will see.
But to speak in absolute terms - that we need a third place or 85 Points or he should be sacked - is stupid. We could theoretically end 5th next season with 77 Points - just 8-10 Points from the League Winners, of course he shouldn't be sacked then.
But if we get 2-3 quality players in - we will get more than 66 Points next season - I am 100% certain. But maybe it's too early for some of our players to get to 85 - we will see.
Yep, I agree with you. They shouldn't beeasured year to year and it should only be an indicator of the specific year that people are pulling points from. X amount of points in moyes season shouldn't be compared to YZ from Solskjaers season. It doesn't even make sense to do that since teams vary and there are a lot of other factors that change.
So when Jose got us second in the league he performed better than Fergie did in 99 as he got more points?
This is too logical and sensible for this forum.
Ole is maybe a year ahead in his development of this squad. I love how Ole out fan boys keep changing the goal post.
Start of season - he isnt good enough, what is he doing selling players and not replacing them, no chance of Europe
October - I told you so, I am right, ole is crap, he decided to let the Lukaku, Herrera go, it is his fault Rashford, Martial, Pogba, injured.
January - Ole isnt good enough get Poch, he is clueless
July - Well, we had the same points last season and got 6th so it isnt good enough still.
Ole's target whatever anyone says was good cup runs and top 4.
All the talk about Lukaku - Greenwood has replaced his goals along with Rashford and Martial.
I remember the first half of the 17/18 season quite fondly - we at times played really good football. We scored 4 goals in 6 matches and won 8 games with 2 goals or more. But after december things changed. We played at times quite poorly - and generally won each game by 1 goal. We lost 4 out of the last 13 games - and just scored 19 goals. We scored 21 goals in our first 7 matches
We lost at home to WBA, away to Brighton, away to Newcastle
But the main problem wasn't the results - it was everything else.
In addition we had signed Sanchez who started to flop, there were the constant criticism towards Pogba and Shaw (who hardly ever played). Martial wasn't playing and was unhappy. Rashford started half the matches on the bench. Herrera was on the bench and was unhappy. Mkhitaryan was poor, Vidic was really poor in the last half of the season. De Gea was solid but even with him there were rumours that he was unhappy. Fellaini and Blind was almost frozen out.
There are two possibility for this scenario... one just like you said that the league have become very competitive which mean clubs are taking points from each other. But then you must admitting that current liverpool team are increadible super good since they nearly manage to achieve a record points under a competitive league
In the other, it also could mean that we are so lucky as other top teams (exc liverpool and Man city) have been underperforming too due to various reasons. To me, i'm more inclined to this reason.
Taking about progress, i think we cannot quantify based on just points and position... as our league position might indicate some good progress but our total points are not. but there is clearly some progress on the second half of season.
to me, i'm not convinced yet with OGS ability to bring us the title but dont mind to give him another season.
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Yeah, I might've been to harsh in saying we only played good football in the "first few games". But really, it's not far from the truth. And as you say, everything else went wrong.
You mention Vidic. He didn't really show up at all, did he?
To put it into perspective, Ole's completed 59 league games as United Manager.
| Manager | Played | GF | GA | GD | Points |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Pep | 59 | 141 | 51 | 90 | 137 |
| Jose | 59 | 97 | 45 | 52 | 113 |
| Ole | 59 | 102 | 61 | 41 | 106 |
| Klopp | 59 | 116 | 76 | 40 | 104 |
| LVG | 59 | 89 | 57 | 32 | 104 |
| Poch | 59 | 92 | 70 | 22 | 100 |
I keep updating this because it helps put things into perspective. Everything went wrong for Jose after his 73rd game, Klopp started to get Liverpool consistent after his 77th game in charge. It took Poch 92 games before he got Tottenham clicking. It took Pep far less time, he had already got them title challengers by this point but I would argue that City only really had to fix their defense, their midfield and attack was brilliant back then. Still, impressive work from Pep.
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I don't care if Ole gets 50 points and win us the PL. Points should not be the criteria.
I agree, I am not Ole out. I want to see how he gets on next season. I really hope he kicks on and wins us something, it will feel alot sweeter with Ole managing us.
Pep came into a City team that won the league if I am not wrong? But he also had a very very good core in Kompany, Silva, Toure and Aguero.
Ole came in and has given the chance to players that were not given a proper chance by Jose, even though the players were there, not many were Jose favourites.
If you look at the players that were already here and have done well this season, Shaw, Lindelof, Fred, McTominay, Rashford and Martial were not really rated by Jose, yet this season they have shone.
No. But Ole and the board should be responsible to get signings to be atleast close to them.
Yes.
It would depend on how far off the top we are.
Why do you keep bringing that up. I said nowhere in my posts about CL. 2-3 years to win the title or challenge for it?
Also, let us not forget Klopp's first full season he only had to focus on league games as there was no European football and klopp never took domestic cup competitions seriously. Klopp made his team fitter as he had one full week to prepare each game. Things became messed up in December January as the fixtures started coming thick and fast. Now klopp has found a way but even now his priority is CL and PL. He knows he has a thin squad and cannot compete in all fronts. Ole realized that this season and he knows he has to add more quality now.
If Guardiola finished the same 15 points behind the title winning team the next season, Yes.
Liverpool's stature as a club when Klopp took over was midtable and a team that hadn't won anything of note for a decade and a hadn't won the league. So, their priorities were elsewhere.
Just in terms of the league, yes, surely Jose performed better. 25 wins against 22.
Behind the city team of 17-19. Of Course they are one of the best PL teams (second best, exactly). I don't see why anyone would argue with that.
Lets just say that I am glad you are not in charge of United
Fascinating little table, thanks.
Pep took over a team that had finished 1st or 2nd 4 times in the previous 5 seasons, the club had been entirely geared around his arrival, and he spent £200M on it in his first summer. So he definitely had a better platform to work from. The fact he finished 3rd in his first season highlights how, even working with the best materials, these things take time.
Pep was on 137 points, everything else is correct.
I think you may have argued yourself into a corner there.
Winning the league is no longer better than second place.
Skimmed through your posts on Ole the last 12 months, and found exactly 100% negative focus on him. Funny thing is that you went missing in those threads between the start of February to when you showed up here with your 85 points as an absolute minimum yesterday. Not one single positive word about him or what the team has been doing since february, just a ridiculous claim that anything under 85 points next season would be a failure.
Are you sure you're not even a little bit biased on this one? You have claimed he wouldn't even get top 4 with LFC or City after all. Just not cut to be a PL manager at all. Your words! Another funny one is that you asked people supporting him, when we struggled the most, what it would take to make them change their opinion. Would you sack him right now if you were in charge?
Not sure where to post this but this seems as good as any:
Nice to sit back, no more premier league football but enjoying knowing that we've secured Champion's League football. Feels good!
Nice to sit back, no more premier league football but enjoying knowing that we've secured Champion's League football. Feels good!
Nope, because leagues shouldn't be compared so points in a specific season doesn't mean much from outside of that season.
You disagree?
Not sure what else to sayYou disagree?
I created my own graph recently based on 57 games (as it was at that point).
I see Pep with more Pts than what you have at 116, I had him with 133 points from a maximum of 171.
Just for the laugh I didn't take Jose at United record, I actually took his very first PL games in 2004 and also added in Ferguson's opening 57 Premier League games (bear in mind he was at United 6 years at this point) and even still....
Ole comes out only slightly worse off than the great man himself and behind Jose's Chelsea machine of 2004 and Pep. Not bad at all.
Oh feck, nice one. I took the data from the day he was made official at City 1 February 2016 rather than his first game in August. I'm a prick. Thanks for pointing that out.
How is it hard to understand?. Jose United team performed better than, United 99.I think you may have argued yourself into a corner there.
Winning the league is no longer better than second place.
If Jose's team played in 99, they would have still won the title, and if 99 team had played in 2018, they would have still lost the title, because the winning side had more points, duh!
You have to be trolling
I am sorry. if you cannot comprehend simple math!You have to be trolling
81 >79. If you argue with that, you can
how much ever you want!and a tonne of lead weighs more than a tonne of feathersI am sorry. if you cannot comprehend simple math!
81 >79. If you argue with that, you can
You're saying finishing second is better than winning the league because points!I am sorry. if you cannot comprehend simple math!
81 >79. If you argue with that, you can
You can't actually think this is true? You know there are a thousand factors during a season that effect a team. Teams they play against, fitness, advances in science, var, all of these things and too many to list here go into a points total during the season. You can't just pick out a team and dump them in another era and think they would have scored the same points total from a completely different time period.
Why does it matter that what my position was before at all? . If you had gone back more, you would have realized I backed him vociferously last summer. Also, with regards to the 85 points, I have reiterated on multiple occasions, I believe the winner next year is getting closer to 90+ and hence the arbitrary 85, to be considered a challenge. Suppose we finish on 75 and the winner is on 80, It would have meant that we have put on a challenge.
hypothetically, what do you think will be the next year winning points tally and how close do we have to be consider it we have challeneged?.
No. Because he has done the least minimum that has required of us. If we hadnt managed top 4 or EL, of course. We sacked our previous three for the same, I dont see why the same standards should be applied.
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