Seconded
The Virgin League Draft - Joga Bonito & Theon vs. Fortitude (GROUP A)
- Thread starter Invictus
- Start date
Thinking about Joga and Theon's side, it would seem to make more sense to put Giresse left in the defensive phase and put Streltsov in the AM/SS position. This would make you more solid in defence and doesn't take much away from Giresse as he can move into the AM position in attack as Gio overlaps. It also keeps Streltsov in his best position.
Agreed. I think he’s one of the more natural fits for the role given it’s pretty hybrid positionally between midfield and defence. Correct me if I’m wrong but whilst it was later on at club level that he made the transition to left back he was already playing that position for Holland when he was in his CM-pomp for Rangers. I agree with Joga re the Barcelona LB era selection but I reckon throughout his whole career he’s fairly well-suited to what’s asked of him here.
Reckon he maybe lacks some of the dynamism of Sorin, Jarni or Chagas who are a few others we considered, but I’d say he has the most cultured left foot of the lot and tactically looks a sound fit whilst dovetailing nicely with Veron and Giresse in midfield.
Years of drafting and it goes to will Altafini score a header against Wright. Best part is when we measure their height which is still a mystery to poor Chumpitaz which looked higher on pictures. So, if you have anyone more then 1,85 there is a much, much better chance to win @Fortitude .
Leaning towards Joga & theon, best defence in the draft (put them among top 3 drafting teams), but not so certain about that left side and reasons to make an open invitation.
Leaning towards Joga & theon, best defence in the draft (put them among top 3 drafting teams), but not so certain about that left side and reasons to make an open invitation.
My vote doesn’t count in this match? Just voting so I can see the score, I hope that’s ok
Wrong thread, apologies...
This was really tough to call and I was going to call it a draw, but Zoff takes my vote.
Knowing Pat, he probably fell asleep after knocking back a few..Pat last night, will be here soon...
Absolute nightmare for a solid relationship.
Not sure what you mean, Jim.
It's a flagrant weakness to have such a short backline, which is why it is literally - and literally is the appropriate word unless someone can prove otherwise - never seen in real life. That seems to have been brushed aside and a suspension of disbelief applied, which is... odd.
My game was never about aerial prowess, as the initial write up would attest to, but the linaer consideration to what aerial defending is, as if it's just one donkey jumping with another over and over makes for something that is important being swept under the rug because 'Wright is excellent in the air thus all the factors revolving around the height issue for the entire defensive backline are negated.' That makes absolutely no sense.
To put some further emphasis on the above paragraph, Picchi is not a CB for a flat back four. He's a sweeper who comes to life behind the play in front of him. I would have thought this was clear in the drafting world or has it not been thoroughly examined before? Slapping him next to Wright and saying have at it compromises the whole backline as far as both Wright and Vogts are concerned because his natural inclination and movement is not that of a flat back four centreback - it cost him for Italy in '66 where what he offered wasn't conducive to that system (ironically another sweeper, who was the eclectic all-rounder who could switch between systems took his place) and again it's a considerable suspension of disbelief glossing that over, imo.
I have no problem with Picchi, but to utilise him, he goes behind the CB's, which is why I made a point of stating I expected a 3-man backline, both to utilise Picchi and to balance out the height issue. You saying that the backline seen here, as is, is one of the top 3 in the draft has me wondering if the above has been taken into account. Picchi is a system player, not the eclectic, all-purpose defender you can switch systems so extremely as seen here with.
You mentioned Chumpitaz and his diminutive height, what you haven't mentioned, however, is his CB partners being of normal height for the era (with one of his CB partners being a very high quality and rounded player in his own right. So much so he's in Boca's all-time xi for some and in the conversations for others). One short defender in those times is not an issue and I made that clear, but to actually build on Chumpitaz, he wouldn't even be the shortest man in the backline in the side here. And if it were Chumpitaz in the backline, the aerial proposition changes anyway because the chance to slip, and stay away from the marker, reduces considerably.
Anyway, not mentioning the height issue would be farcical of me, but it was one from a few issues raised. Ultimately, my team is not reliant on aerial play and have players equipped to exploit the holes I've mentioned without referencing aerial play - their left side is vulnerable from top to bottom and the midfield has a lot of work to do to combat mine for 90 minutes especially with Mackay being drawn over to help Van Brockhurst given their is barely any support from Streltsov defensively.
Picchi is not sound in that 4 system and Vogts is either charged with shoring up and going across to RCB, thus abandoning his RB role against Finney, or having a porous inlet on the inside of him. Altafini is a top class striker of his era - there is no time for defensive uncertainty with he and Finney around and having a guy who literally did all his best work behind the play as a last-last line of defence coming out to front him/them up is suboptimal, to say the least.
I didn't make a song and dance about this yesterday as I thought these things were clear and apparent, but having this reduced to what is ultimately an offshoot discussion about the air would be remiss of what these games are supposed to be about.
@Fortitude that was never a dig at you, but directed at some general discussions during the draft which I find crazy (when they start measuring players I have an immediate headache and it absolutely takes away from a better debate). For example, I think Finney would have a very good game here as your midfield would shift the ball with him isolated on Vogts. And Vogts or not, that's never a good thing.
Sorry for not putting it better. I share most of your sentiments, including Picchi/Wright partnership. I said I will vote in every match in the draft, but tbh maybe better if I skipped this one as it is very even (went more with a gut feeling). Don't take it to the heart, you have been a wonderful addition to these drafts recently. Also, you are suffering from modern players syndrome, Picchi is capitan di grande Inter (or whatever) and Varane who took France all the way to WC is a bum. Forget that most people watched Picchi on averege once (maybe not even once).
Sorry for not putting it better. I share most of your sentiments, including Picchi/Wright partnership. I said I will vote in every match in the draft, but tbh maybe better if I skipped this one as it is very even (went more with a gut feeling). Don't take it to the heart, you have been a wonderful addition to these drafts recently. Also, you are suffering from modern players syndrome, Picchi is capitan di grande Inter (or whatever) and Varane who took France all the way to WC is a bum. Forget that most people watched Picchi on averege once (maybe not even once).
I had trouble figuring out who to vote for but I admit I'm swayed by the point about the height of the defense. That will be a weakness, particularly during set pieces (which are almost never debated for some reason). People talk about who will cross and head the ball during general play but in set pieces delivered by someone like Finney with Varane and Koulibaly up against Wright and Picchi I can only see one outcome there. Players who are 5'6" and 5'7" are going to struggle against a pair or 6 footers no matter how good they are in the air and I don't think Picchi is all that good at that aspect of the game anyway.
Can't wait for Charles against Koeman.
Just clarifying my vote doesn’t count here? As I’d give it more thought if it did and not just pick home team
Did feel like a half dig, but thanks for clarifying - I did reiterate that the height issue was something to point out but not the be all and end all of the discussion as going aerial isn't the most productive use of the ball for my team or personnel, just, I don't see how it gets glossed over or a shoulder shrug when seeing a backline so small is something I've literally never seen in real life, even on paper, or actually outside of the height thread I made in the footy forum some time back.
Still, even if tiny, Chumpitaz-Wright would have more logical merit, but Picchi negates a lot of that because he's the personification of the archetypal defensive sweeper, so much so it cost him for a NT that couldn't accommodate his style given they didn't play that way during Inter's pomp.
It feels as though me being painstaking about the points I've made would be seen as saltiness, where, to me, the oversights because there is no exhaustive discussion, are baffling.
I see where you’re coming from and it does seem like the height was glossed over because one of them was good in the air. I havnt seen your points really refuted to an acceptable or agreed standard to be honest, just brushed over or shrugged off like you said.
I don’t know Altafini si wouldn’t know how much he could dominate these in the air, I think someone I know like vieri or two dominant Ariel strikers and you’d clearly win the match against 2 really short centre backs as like you said, one is ok and will have cover, 2 is extreme and I’ve never seen it in real life either.
I didn’t pay attention to my vote as youre in my group and that probably doesn’t help when looking at score, sorry
There defense is legit tiny although I just don't see you exploiting it that much and if you can't do that it is an incredible defence. I think you would be better off with a proper midfield playmaker and you would have more chance of scoring. I might be underestimating Hanappi TBF though.
Do you have more on Picchi not working in the NT? If Picchi couldn't work flat defence it would be an argument against him appearing in any drafts because standing behind the back 3 or 4 wouldn't work with modern offside rules. That doesn't mean this argument would be wrong though.
Lastly on height, one reason I picked Zmuda was to have extra height at the back as Santamaria was under 6ft.
To be honest I think any over-simplification is coming from you as you’re effectively making out that aerial ability is just a case of whipping out a measuring tape and basing it all off that.
As we’ve made clear a few times, Billy Wright is well-known for being exceptional in the air and as a traditional, ball-winning style of defender his standing in the game is beyond reproach. As an example despite being slightly past his peak at the time of the inaugural award his run of 9th (1956), 2nd (1957) and 6th (1958) in the Ballon d’Or is one of the most impressive for a central defender and he’s probably a shoe-in for an All-Time 50’s spot next to Santamaria.
Rather than re-hash a good post from Gio with more information:
I think ignoring all those credentials just because he’s an inch or two shorter than Altafini (5 ft 8 vs 5 ft 9 / 10) is a touch disingenuous and as I say is bordering on the simplistic when it comes to evaluating aerial ability – as has been mentioned in the thread Cannavaro, Passarella, Chumpitaz, Ayala were all on the smaller side in terms of height but we’re amongst the best defenders ever when it comes to ability in the air. There's no attempt to fudge the issue here, it's just a fact that the being 6 ft + isn't mandatory when it comes to being excellent in the air.
To be honest though I would sympathise with the argument more if he was up against a modern physical specimen like Ibrahimović who really would pose issues for any of the great pre-modern defenders in terms of physicality. It’s an interesting one from a draft perspective - over the last century people are 4-5 inches taller on average and advances in sports science, nutrition and lifestyle choices (smoking, drinking) mean that there probably is a case that modern players would run rings physically around those from earlier eras. Take someone like Adama Traoré, it’s just another level when it comes to speed and strength than players from even 30 years ago.
having 4 tiny defenders is a non issue if they face a tiny team, there is no rule that you MUST have a big defender in the team, that was just a natural thing back in the day when every opponent you faced had at least one big man up top.
Fortitudes attack/midfield isnt big so its a non issue in the game, where it could be an issue is set pieces which didnt even being mentioned(though i didnt read the whole debate so maybe im wrong), that was the angle that fort needed to exploit. Other then 2 attackers its a tiny team in general so it could be a potential massacre at corners with Varane and Koulibaly joining in. Attackers are not reliable man markers so Spencer would probably be in a specific zone, if the cross can avoid that area it could be trouble.
Fortitudes attack/midfield isnt big so its a non issue in the game, where it could be an issue is set pieces which didnt even being mentioned(though i didnt read the whole debate so maybe im wrong), that was the angle that fort needed to exploit. Other then 2 attackers its a tiny team in general so it could be a potential massacre at corners with Varane and Koulibaly joining in. Attackers are not reliable man markers so Spencer would probably be in a specific zone, if the cross can avoid that area it could be trouble.
Streltsov is playing in his best position - that graphic isn't showing him on the left. It's a front two up top with Spencer as the spearheading #9 and Streltsov as a slightly deeper support striker.
Defensively the channel is marshalled by that Van Bronckhorst / Wright / Mackay axis with Picchi sweeping up anything behind (pretty much the gold-standard in that role). As with any diamond formation the LB doesn't have a dedicated LW in front of them but I don't see that as a huge issue to be honest and the likes of Giresse or Streltsov are still able to press into wider areas. Overall the defence looks pretty rock solid to me - particularly with Dino Zoff of all people as the last line of defence.
Sorry to be that guy, but there's definitely something wrong with that sentence
I'm not arguing with your point though.Chumpitaz is an odd one out there as he was nothing special in the air, of course he was above average in terms of his positioning and leap, but it didn't compensate for his lack of height (as was the case for Cannavaro, Passarella etc.) to put him on an all-time great level. He was fantastic on the ground and with the ball though.
Deary me, that’s horrific.Sorry to be that guy, but there's definitely something wrong with that sentence
It really doesn't look like a diamond from the picture. I thought it was either a Zona Mista or a lopsided 4231. I asked early in the thread and Joga said it was a lopsided 4231 hence my questions about Streltsov.
A diamond is an entirely different proposition in the way it works. I would guess then Veron is the DLP and Mackay LCM. That's fine and makes sense but to repeat, it doesn't look like that at all.
Even as a diamond, it doesn't work.
I feel this is a pointless thing to continue discussing.
Well Hassler at RCM is fine as is Veron at DLP, Giresse will be happy for him to do his thing. The question is how good Mackay would be at LCM? That is a question I don't know the answer to.
Btw do you have any links on Picchi not fitting into the NT?
That is definitely not a diamond. I don't think even the intention was to present it as a sort of diamond. Even if it was one, its a bad one. Let alone the midfield, I don't think Picchi and Vogts together can function in a diamond.
Pretty sure it's a zona mista in the making (which makes the most sense as well). Guess we will have to wait till later in the draft if and when the team is reinforced.
Pretty sure it's a zona mista in the making (which makes the most sense as well). Guess we will have to wait till later in the draft if and when the team is reinforced.
Sorry if my post was not clear enough - the comparison to the diamond was responding to your point that not having a LW infront of a LB is an issue defensively. I was saying that literally every diamond formation has that same issue on both sides of the park but it doesn't stop those systems being successful. You can defend a channel without having a winger tracking back defensively (lots of wingers are now wing-forwards anyway and contribute minimal in this respect). So to repeat what I posted, for our team the left side is primarily tracked by Van Bronckhorst / Wright / Mackay with Picchi sweeping up in behind - Giresse and Streltsov are also able to press into wide areas despite nominally being 'central'. Again that's no different to how diamonds or 3-5-2s would operate defensively with a support striker pressing a fullback, or a player like Giresse dropping into midfield to help.
Formation wise it's the same as zona mista with a winger on the right (Häßler) and a roaming support striker on the left (Streltsov) - you could also describe that as a wonky 4-2-3-1 and I presume Joga used that term to avoid all the other connotations associated with a zona mista (i.e. the zonal marking philosophy).
Last post from me but wanted to address this as think this is quite off to be honest. The whole defence was actually built deliberately to optimise Picchi and we’ve tried to replicate the sort of set-up he thrived in with Grande Inter - captaining one of the all-time great sides to three Scudettos and back to back European Cups (conceding just ten goals in two years) as well as another runners-up medal.
This was the Grande Inter defence:
Facchetti ----------
----------- Guarneri ------------- Burgnich
------------------------- Picchi ----------------
In terms of what we have gone for it's never been represented as a flat back four which we have shown visually on the graphic with Picchi sitting deeper behind the rest of the backline – the reference to him ‘sweeping’ in the OP also demonstrates him playing his natural role as a covering defender behind the rest of the defence. In terms of roles we chose Vogts as the most natural RCB / RB hybrid available (in an all-time sense its only the likes of Bergomi who challenges him for that position imo) who looks a perfect replacement for Burgnich and a natural defensive foil next to Picchi on the right. Picchi's centre back partner was Guarneri who was a traditional, physical ball-winner, who we have upgraded here with Wright whilst retaining the same sort of ‘sweeper / stopper’ combination that Grande Inter optimised. On the left replacing Facchetti like for like is impossible (!) but Van Bronckhorst has been chosen as a natural width provider who brings balance to the side and is comfortable contributing in both phases.
We thought through who we were choosing in that back line quite carefully and both know how Picchi plays - Joga actually made a compilation of him which he posted for the community a few days ago and optimising his role in the team was probably the main thing we built around (after we picked Vogts, we wanted either Picchi or Koeman as our next pick).
An as yet unpicked player was chosen ahead of him by Valcareggi due to his unsuitability to the system they wanted to play at the '66 World Cup. As for links, in this day and age, they're much harder to find and it's pretty immaterial anyway, but
there is this excerpt: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...e&q=Ferruccio Valcareggi drops Picchi&f=false
and also it's mentioned in Picchi's Wiki
Col suo approdo all'Inter venne gradualmente trasformato in libero dall'allenatore Helenio Herrera e posto al comando della retroguardia; a tal proposito, Mario Gherarducci scrisse: «l'interpretazione che Armando fornisce del ruolo di "libero" è esemplare ma discussa. È lui l'ultima barriera davanti al portiere, è lui che non sguarnisce mai la difesa, è lui che calamita ogni pallone anche senza essere un fenomeno nel gioco aereo».[5] Tuttavia questo stile di gioco, che lo portò a limitare notevolmente le sortite offensive, fu tra le cause delle poche apparizioni di Picchi in nazionale: Edmondo Fabbri, commissario tecnico dell'Italia dal 1962 al 1966, lo riteneva infatti troppo difensivista.[8]
With his arrival at Inter he was gradually transformed into free by the coach Helenio Herrera and placed in command of the rearguard; in this regard, Mario Gherarducci wrote: «Armando's interpretation of the role of" free "is exemplary but discussed. He is the last barrier in front of the goalkeeper, it is he who never defends the defense, it is he who magnetizes every ball even without being a phenomenon in the air game ". [5] However, this style of play, which led him to considerably limit offensive matches, was among the causes of Picchi's few appearances in the national team: Edmondo Fabbri, Italy's coach from 1962 to 1966, considered him too defensive. [8]
When I used to read about this stuff, the resources were far more plentiful than now. A lot of sites don't even exist anymore and a wealth of information has gone into the abyss with them, unfortunately.
Picchi is a specialist, not the eclectic type, particularly behind the defensive line (his fame comes from this), or I guess he could be put in DM, but in a flat back 4, he has no merit and it's simply not his style or what he is effective at.
I don't think there's a player that can be picked before him for the role he specialised in, but that's neither here nor there with regard to the line up presented for this game.
I think anything I say in countenance is redundant, @Theon which is why I said this has run its course.
Appreciate your effort to explain your position.
Appreciate your effort to explain your position.
Thanks for the information re Picchi @Fortitude That's what I was looking for
It is a lopsided set up with two up front. Haßler will be the RM and Streltsov is a centre forward. It is not a diamond and it was never meant to be represented as such
On the right we have Haßler, an immensely industrious and a creative techno-midget
, who should dovetail really well with Vogts playing the defensive RCB-RB role. Naturally when Vogts tucks in, Haßler drops deep and pushes forward with Vogts on the right etc. I expect them to work well in unison. With Vogts on the right and Wright on the left I don't really see why there's be issues for Picchi here in the defensive phase. No different to him having Guarneri and Burgnich ahead of him.Now it'd be disingenuous to play Picchi in a flat back four with two standard FBs and claim that he'd function flawlessly or that he'd be a sweeper. Which is exactly why we've partnered him with Wright and a top notch RCB-RB in Vogts and with an industrious RM and a LWB to go with too. Now his defensive style was no different to Scirea imo who also sweeped up and was behind the defensive line of Cabrini, Brio and Gentile. Difference being that he was much more expansive on the ball. Now that is fairly reductionist as there were significant differences in their respective systems but at the end of the day both were sweepers defensively and in many ways Picchi was the precursor to Scirea.
https://thesefootballtimes.co/2018/...-scirea-the-legendary-liberos-who-died-by-36/
Here's a great article on both of them. Both of them passed away at 36, tragically. Didn't know that was the case with Picchi till this draft.
Now we have a LWB in van Bronckhorst who was really attacking and great at providing attacking impetus whilst being capable of holding his own defensively. Now we haven't just lumped Van Bronchorst on the left and left him alone. He has more than enough support on the left.
Firstly - Dave Mackay. He was immense at covering the left channels and flanks and often you'd see him covering for his left back or providing him support. One of the prime reasons why we picked him (apart from his obvious quality) to bolster that left flank.
Please watch these videos on Mackay if you haven't done so already. He was truly a force to be reckoned with, not just centrally but on the left too - no different to Edgar Davids for instance.
Secondly - Giresse. Now we intentionally picked Giresse, not just for his creativity and because he was a midget but also because of his ability to roam and his ease on either flank - there was a reason he was known as the false winger after all. Giresse and Tigana played huge roles in enabling the 'centrally loaded' carre magique to not just function but thrive. Giresse was also extremely industrious and really put in a shift off the ball and contributed to the midfield battle, as too did Veron, so that Mackay has enough freedom to be able to cover the left channels and flank when the need arises.
Finally, this might be a blunder on my part but I've spent a lot of time banging on Spencer being a roaming all round centre forward and not just a heading penalty box target man. And I haven't fully expanded on that or why we've gone with such a setup.
Spencer was truly a modern and a complete centre forward who loved to drift off to the flanks and was absolutely lethal at finding space out wide and cutting in.
You can count the numerous amount of times he does that in both these matches. He should have gotten a few penalties etc and his searing pace cutting in from the flanks was too much for defenses to handle and it was one of his fortes.
He loved to link up play and preferred playing with creative and similar minded players which is why I've been at pains, to play him in a strike duo with the crafty Streltsov and alongside techno midgets Giresse & Haßler and of course Veron. I should have placed him as the LF and Streltsov on the right for voters to better visualize it and that was a mistake on my part.
Keep in mind that he's not playing up front isolated but with a dedicated strike partner, meaning he'd have even more license to exploit his roaming gameplay. No different to how Klinsmann and Völler played for example.
Simply put we could have played Moulijn, a brilliant left winger with a great cross and kept banging on about the service from Moulijn and Haßler with Giresse feeding him and ultimately make him out to be the pure goalscoring centre forward, that he's always viewed as. Straightforward and we'd barely lose anything in terms of vote recognition as neither Streltsov or Moulijn are your traditional vote magnets and we'd be facing fewer questions with the latter. However, I honestly feel this is the best way to maximise Spencer's talents and let him strut his stuff as a roaming forward, dropping deep, drifting out wide and linking up with others and most importantly, exhibit his match winning potential.
Now would the left flank be relatively more secure with a traditional winger occupying the opposition's RB? Yes of course, but we feel the upsides (which I've listed above) to this setup more than covers that minor setback and you'd never be safe with Spencer waiting to exploit any spaces or gaps that pops up on the flanks or channels, and exploit them ruthlessly. I'd be more than glad for the opposition to push their RB fully forward, but I'd back my defense and van Bronckhorst, ably supported by the likes of Mackay and Giresse to hold the fort and Spencer to sucker-punch them on the break.
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@Joga Bonito
Thanks for the detailed post. You do seem setup well for a Zona Mista and I can see why Spencer would thrive there. My concern would be does the older Veron have the legs to be the DM in this system? The younger industrious Veron was an 8 and when you said it was a 4231 I thought Mackay was the DM and Veron as a more attacking CM. This then seemed to leave you open in defense as Streltsov didn't defend much. Now Veron in front of the back line makes more sense but he's not defensively as good as you would want there. Now of course you could play the younger Veron as a DM/DLP but you don't get peak Veron then.
Thanks for the detailed post. You do seem setup well for a Zona Mista and I can see why Spencer would thrive there. My concern would be does the older Veron have the legs to be the DM in this system? The younger industrious Veron was an 8 and when you said it was a 4231 I thought Mackay was the DM and Veron as a more attacking CM. This then seemed to leave you open in defense as Streltsov didn't defend much. Now Veron in front of the back line makes more sense but he's not defensively as good as you would want there. Now of course you could play the younger Veron as a DM/DLP but you don't get peak Veron then.
Excuse if I seem salty - the most frustrating game I've been involved with on here.
Enjoy your place at the top of table! And you @Theon
Veron is the all action #8 as he was in his prime and Mackay the DM. But it's very much a duo, not too dissimilar to Mackay-Blanchflower or Simeone-Veron.