France Football's Ballon D'Or Dream Team Nominees

[Bobski]

Better than Del Piero, absolutely. Only Juventus fans would tell you Del Piero was better, and then not even all of them. There's more of an argument for Baggio, though part of it is romanticism. Baggio though i think is generally considered either the best or second best italian player since Valentino Mazzola. The other one is Gigi Riva

Genuinely surprised at that, I can see an argument for Totti against Del Piero based on domestic performances but at the CL and international level I think Del Piero clearly out performed him, though part of that is in playing for a superior Juve team. Baggio I adored, interesting career, amazing highs, weird lows( in Milan), but beautiful to watch, and performed superbly for Italy. It always shocks me just how quick and elusive he was before the knee injuries started to take their toll.

Totti has a great record, always a surprise the amount of goals he scored.

 

[giorno]

Honestly the one glaring omission from those lists is Elias Figueroa, who genuinely belongs in the best CB of all time conversation with Kaiser, Baresi and Scirea

 

[giorno]

Genuinely surprised at that, I can see an argument for Totti against Del Piero based on domestic performances but at the CL and international level I think Del Piero clearly out performed him

He didn't, for Italy Totti was a far greater player than Del Piero. As for CL, Totti never played on teams as good as the great juventus sides Del Piero was part of

 

[AltiUn]

Think Guardiola needs adding to one of those "which players have had their reputation embellished since retirement" lists.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Anyway, lots of those players just don't belong to that list. They just don't belong there. And wtf is this with Pele and Maradona in midfield? Man, i can't believe how i managed to lost my nerves about this list.
My choice for best 11 (based on this shitty list) would be:
Yashin
Cafu, Kaiser Franz, Baresi, Maldini (goat defender)
Rijkaard, Pirlo
Maradona, Pele
Messi(goat) , Luis Ronaldo

 

[Bobski]

He didn't, for Italy Totti was a far greater player than Del Piero. As for CL, Totti never played on teams as good as the great juventus sides Del Piero was part of

Timing a big thing here, Del Piero had his best years when Serie A was still the main league in Europe, while Totti had his in a league that was considered to be in decline with significantly less quality.

That has to be a important factor in the perception of Totti.

 

[Adisa]

Dani Alves has to be there.

 

[NoneBmStore]

No Michael Laudrup, Preben Elkjær and Allan Simonsen.

 

[Infordin]

Ramos is there, Kroos isn't available hat good.

@tenpoless was making a reference to this classic interview

 

[harms]

No Michael Laudrup, Preben Elkjær and Allan Simonsen.

Well, they haven't announced forwards yet, so there's still hope for Elkjær

 

[padr81]

As usual with France Football they get suckered in by current popularity with the likes of Ramos and Guardiola, and team/national agendas with Totti and Gerrard. Decent list outside that though.

Don't belong:
Ramos
Guardiola (was never more than very good as a player)
Desailly (though it is France Football)
Gerrard
Pele (since when was he an offensive midfielder?)
Totti

Missing:
Cruyff (if Maradona and Pele are offensive midfielders, he must be too)
Best (same as above)
Nesta
Alves
Kahn

Ramos absolutely belongs... 1 World cup, 2 Euro's, 4 Champions Leagues, 5 League Titles
10 times in the FifPro World XI, 8 times Uefa team of the year, Twice Uefa defender of the season and he even won the golden boot at a club world cup.

 

[JSArsenal]

Ramos absolutely belongs... 1 World cup, 2 Euro's, 4 Champions Leagues, 5 League Titles
10 times in the FifPro World XI, 8 times Uefa team of the year, Twice Uefa defender of the season and he even won the golden boot at a club world cup.

Since when do we judge individual quality on the trophies they've won as part of a team? Should Victor Valdez be in contention for greatest keeper of all time?

I'm only half messing with you. That's how all of these things go. Real Madrid isn't a very forgiving place, nor a club that carries stragglers for very long. Either Ramos has managed to build up a cult of personality around himself that's allowed him to become captain and rely on his teammates to carry him to that trophy cabinet or he's made a major contribution himself.

He's a great defender, but for me, he's more Kolo Toure than Sol Campbell, if that makes sense. He's great, just not the greatest CB to have played the game. The more trophies a player wins, the more hyped up his individual reputation becomes. Kind of like Giggs who is now viewed at a level above and beyond what he was as a player.

 

[harms]

Ramos absolutely belongs... 1 World cup, 2 Euro's, 4 Champions Leagues, 5 League Titles
10 times in the FifPro World XI, 8 times Uefa team of the year, Twice Uefa defender of the season and he even won the golden boot at a club world cup.

He's not as good as his trophy count suggests* – but he's not as bad as his critics will want you to believe. He makes way too many mistakes for someone compared to the likes of Baresi and Beckenbauer, but it has a lot to do with the environment where he is horrendously exposed. His goalscoring, like in Koeman's case, is also a significant bonus that's not exactly traditional for a defender.

Still – he's not better than Figueroa or Nesta, who both belong up there without any argument.

* even someone like Pique (a worse player than Ramos, mind) has 1 World Cup, 1 Euro, 3 Champions Leagues, 8 League Titles, 4 Times FIFPro World XI, 5 times UEFA Team of the Year etc. – individual awards especially are mostly popularity based nowadays. I mean, Diego Godin had never got into FIFPro World XI, neither did Rio Ferdinand.

 

[Sky1981]

I think I can find more people agreeing with me than you. Even top top players

He's not on the list isnt he?

 

[Theonas]

He's not as good as his trophy count suggests* – but he's not as bad as his critics will want you to believe. He makes way too many mistakes for someone compared to the likes of Baresi and Beckenbauer, but it has a lot to do with the environment where he is horrendously exposed. His goalscoring, like in Koeman's case, is also a significant bonus that's not exactly traditional for a defender.

Still – he's not better than Figueroa or Nesta, who both belong up there without any argument.

* even someone like Pique (a worse player than Ramos, mind) has 1 World Cup, 1 Euro, 3 Champions Leagues, 8 League Titles, 4 Times FIFPro World XI, 5 times UEFA Team of the Year etc. – individual awards especially are mostly popularity based nowadays. I mean, Diego Godin had never got into FIFPro World XI, neither did Rio Ferdinand.

I think the reason the likes of Ramos are viewed very highly whereas the likes of Gódin, Keane or Vieira are not is the same. Most World Cup, Euros and Champions League winners come from the Mediterranean and South American countries. This rightly or wrongly will mean that these lists will favor players who fit into that playing style and the characteristics valued in those footballing cultures. The fact is, there simply is a much higher emphasis on technique and flair in those regions. Ramos is technically brilliant, Gódin is a warrior who fits more the underdog tag of someone making up for their technical deficiency. The fact that we have threads talking about how Keane was in fact technically underrated or when he himself talks about how he 'could also play a bit' in a response to his perception, is evidence that he was not on par in that area with the very best. Perceptions can exaggerate a player's strengths or weaknesses but they don't make them up entirely. You don't see for example anyone trying to argue that Neeskens or Pirlo or Guardiola were technically strong, it's self evident.

Whether what characteristics or qualities are valued when making best players list, is fair or not, is a different subject. The argument for it will always be that to the winner belongs the spoils. The most successful get to decide what are the most important qualities basically. According to that, the only mystery is how on earth is Gerrard is in and Alves is not.

 

[Cascarino]

Midfield list is digrace for football.
Guardiola, Redondo, Busquets??

And where the feck is Modric?

I don’t get the smileys over Redondo and Busquets? ( I can’t talk about Guardiola as I never caught enough of him to rate his ability). They’re both sensational midfielders.

 

[Majima]

Do not belong:

• Xabi Alonso (He wasn't that good. Xavi and Iniesta were the key to the Spain side not him.)
• Gerrard (He was nowhere close to a best ever DM.)
• Sergio Ramos (Great player & leader yes, but goals do not make a great defender. He has made way too many mistakes in his career to be regarded as one of the best CBs ever.)

I'm sure there's more but the rest are too old for me to have watched them properly.

Missing:

• Dani Alves
• Puyol
• Vieira
• Makélélé
• Modrić (Heartbeat of Madrid side that won CL 3 times in a row, 4 in total. Carried his National side to European final.)
• Keane
• Kaká (His peak was so short, but he was like a phoenix for those few years)
• Best

 

[Cloud7]

People really need to put some respect on Busquets name. He is the best defensive midfielder of the last 20 years for me. The way he plays the game is something else.

 

[Lord SInister]

Not when you compare him to the rest in that list. Don’t get me wrong, I genuinely love the guy, but he wasn’t even the best midfielder in his own teams for most of the time. Litmanen was at Ajax (with Davids, Seedorf, old Rijkaard and de Boer playing equally important roles), Redondo was at Madrid, Pirlo was at Milan. Davids has also been more important than him for the NT.

He’s around Scholes’ level all things considered. Not quite good enough to truly rival the big guys, but still somewhere close.

seedrof was.no way near Scholes level.
one of the most overrated and inconsistent players ever, whose 4CLs wins with 3 clubs cloud public perception of him.

 

[Snow]

He's not as good as his trophy count suggests* – but he's not as bad as his critics will want you to believe. He makes way too many mistakes for someone compared to the likes of Baresi and Beckenbauer, but it has a lot to do with the environment where he is horrendously exposed. His goalscoring, like in Koeman's case, is also a significant bonus that's not exactly traditional for a defender.

Still – he's not better than Figueroa or Nesta, who both belong up there without any argument.

* even someone like Pique (a worse player than Ramos, mind) has 1 World Cup, 1 Euro, 3 Champions Leagues, 8 League Titles, 4 Times FIFPro World XI, 5 times UEFA Team of the Year etc. – individual awards especially are mostly popularity based nowadays. I mean, Diego Godin had never got into FIFPro World XI, neither did Rio Ferdinand.

You've watched a lot of Figueroa matches then?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Philipp Lahm?

Would pick Dani Alves head of him. Probably the best fullback I've seen.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Gerrard making the DM list is just

Also, how on earth does Seedorf get in ahead of Iniesta?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Guardiola

I was puzzled by this one too. I know he was supposed to be a top player but never heard the claim that he was all time top 10 quality before.

 

[altodevil]

Just realised Vieira isn't there. Wow. Guardiola over Vieira. These things are usually pointless, but they could have at least tried.

 

[NoPace]

Would pick Dani Alves head of him. Probably the best fullback I've seen.

Yeah I'd say if you judge by career but weighting peak level higher (say double) than other years, Alves is the #4 player of the post-Zidane and Ronaldo era, only below Messi, Cristiano then a huge gap then Xavi and then Alves. Apologies to Modric, Ronaldinho (maybe even the #3 peak ahead of Xavi, I'd need to go back and watch tape to feel comfortable having a take there), Henry, Iniesta and Ramos who all make the 21st century XI:

Ronaldinho-Cristiano-Messi (Henry, Zlatan, Robben)
---------Iniesta------Xavi----------- (Modric, Vidal)
-------------------Pirlo----------------- (Busquets)
Alaba-------------------------Alves (Lahm, Cole)
---------Ramos--Ferdinand----- (Pique, Godin)
------------------Neuer--------------- (Buffon)

feels like my first and 2nd team unless I'm forgetting someone. Probably biased a bit against 2000-2005 because of my age. And obviously if it was a real team you'd want a midfielder who weighs over 150 pounds in there at presumably Pirlo's expense (though you could also try Pirlo sitting and Xavi and someone with incredible energy like Kante or Vidal as the 3rd man) and maybe Ronaldinho off the bench and just ask Messi and Cristiano to pick a 9 (or RW if Messi wants to play there and presumably Robben out right) who they prefer to play with and if they pick Totti or Suarez or Henry or Ronaldinho or David Villa then feck it let them give it a go.

feck it, 3rd, 4th and 5th teams:

3rd
Lewandowski---------Suarez
------------------Totti----------------------
---Schweinsteiger--Kroos-------
-----------------Makelele-----
Marcelo--------------------Zanetti
--------Silva---Puyol---------------
-------------Casillas-----------------

4th:
--------------E'too---------------------
Ribery-----------------Kaka---------
------Lampard----Gerrard-------
---------Xabi Alonso---------------
Evra--------------------------Maicon
--------Chiellini--Nesta-------------
-------------Cech-------------------

5th:
--------------Shevchenko----------
Neymar------------------------Zidane
--------------David Silva---------------
Zambrotta--De Rossi-----Kimmich
--------Vidic-Bonucci-Pepe-------
-------------Van Der Sar-------------

6th team couldn't be bothered but David Villa, Varane and Terry were probably on it.

Tried not to cheat with positions too much. Zidane people will scream about but 6 final club seasons vs 14 for say Lampard is just too big a gap, but hey 2000 is an arbitrary start date so that's why these things end up cheating guys and should just be players who debut after 2000 (or in this era's case probably 1995) and so he makes the 90s team too and is probably the only guy along with Nesta on this team to do that, though Kimmich would be favored too if he stays at RB and does have a shot at DM though probably a worse one.

 

[11101]

Ramos absolutely belongs... 1 World cup, 2 Euro's, 4 Champions Leagues, 5 League Titles
10 times in the FifPro World XI, 8 times Uefa team of the year, Twice Uefa defender of the season and he even won the golden boot at a club world cup.

Trophies don't make a player, especially not when they're won in teams with so much talent. Ramos is a great player, but top 10 in the history? Above the likes of Nesta and Ferdinand? No chance. He fits a particular style of play and makes too many mistakes and let's his team down on too many occasions for that. To be a true great you have to be a brilliant player beyond the team you are in. Ramos doesn't fit that.

 

[Andersonson]

He's not on the list isnt he?

You're basing your opinion on UEFA merits?
Then this discussion is over mate

 

[Ekeke]

Theres barely a tackle between their 20s DMs combined

 

[Sky1981]

You're basing your opinion on UEFA merits?
Then this discussion is over mate

What are you basing it on?

 

[harms]

You've watched a lot of Figueroa matches then?

About 10 or so. Not a huge amount, of course, but those were the games at the highest level (World Cups, Copa America final, a game against Pelé's Santos) and he had performed admirably. His defensive masterclass against Gerd Müller in 1974 is one of the most impressive individual performances by any defender that I've ever seen, especially considering the stage and quality of the opposition. Combined with his credentials (3 times South American Footballer of the Year – as a center back competing with the likes of Zico & Rivellino), it's hard to overlook him.

 

[DWelbz19]

Could Totti be the most overrated player ever

Easily up there.

 

[DWelbz19]

Not even close, feck me as if a goalkeeper, two centerbacks and a midfield playmaker could be better than an all time great #10

Him not being a top 20 all time #10 is debatable, but as i said it doesn't really matter. That list stops at Pelé, Maradona and Di Stefano

An all time great no.10. Francesco Totti.

 

[archiebald]

Would pick Dani Alves head of him. Probably the best fullback I've seen.

Agreed, off the top of my head this is probably the most glaring omission. Also would have liked to see Laudrup amongst the attacking mids ahead of maybe a Totti.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Missing...

GK: Kahn
RB: Alves
CB: Nesta (seriously Ramos?! because of trophies eh)
LB:
DM: Viera, Keane (Gerrard and Alonso?? because of their CL eh, and why the heck is Seedorf a DM...)
OM: maybe Kaka and Seedorf (since Totti is included.. for who knows why)

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Who do you guys think will be the 19th Oct nominees?

CF
1. Ronaldo
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

RF
1. Messi
2. Robben
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

LF
1. C. Ronaldo
2. Best
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

I'll edit this later... brain is running low..

 

[Snow]

About 10 or so. Not a huge amount, of course, but those were the games at the highest level (World Cups, Copa America final, a game against Pelé's Santos) and he had performed admirably. His defensive masterclass against Gerd Müller in 1974 is one of the most impressive individual performances by any defender that I've ever seen, especially considering the stage and quality of the opposition. Combined with his credentials (3 times South American Footballer of the Year – as a center back competing with the likes of Zico & Rivellino), it's hard to overlook him.

I can, with little research, find you 10 masterclass performances from Ramos in the CL. That includes finals. How you can claim that he's definitely better than Ramos on 10 games is beyond me. Especially since you've purposedly watched his best-off and not his regular season Chile and Uruguayan league games.

 

[harms]

I can, with little research, find you 10 masterclass performances from Ramos in the CL. That includes finals. How you can claim that he's definitely better than Ramos on 10 games is beyond me. Especially since you've purposedly watched his best-off and not his regular season Chile and Uruguayan league games.

It's not how this works. There are about 15 games of Figueroa online and I've watched most of them, I didn't pick and chose. Quite obviously those games happened to be the biggest ones, as those are the games which are televised and archived properly – and in all of them he had looked amazing (and in some of them – on a level that Ramos had never reached and wasn't capable of reaching). There's also tons of supporting evidence that highlight his consistency & quality of his performances – now without him performing at the highest level in all of the games that I've seen, I would've been more sceptical of it, but in this case I tend to believe it.

Ramos has his strengths. While his leadership qualities are probably matched by Figueroa, he certainly has an edge in terms of goalscoring. Figueroa though possessed an incredible understanding of the game and even on the ball he was a better player. Stronger 1 on 1 as well.

Ramos wasn't done any favours by modern trend of high defensive line & Marcelo next to him – something that often puts him in risky situations, but he usually deals with those quite well. Figueroa never played for a team as dominant as Madrid/Spain though, so there's also that.

I think Ramos is a bit underrated in general, but he doesn't deserve a place in this list. Figueroa does – in my opinion.

 

[Snow]

It's not how this works. There are about 15 games of Figueroa online and I've watched most of them, I didn't pick and chose. Quite obviously those games happened to be the biggest ones, as those are the games which are televised and archived properly – and in all of them he had looked amazing (and in some of them – on a level that Ramos had never reached and wasn't capable of reaching). There's also tons of supporting evidence that highlight his consistency & quality of his performances – now without him performing at the highest level in all of the games that I've seen, I would've been more sceptical of it, but in this case I tend to believe it.

Ramos has his strengths. While his leadership qualities are probably matched by Figueroa, he certainly has an edge in terms of goalscoring. Figueroa though possessed an incredible understanding of the game and even on the ball he was a better player. Stronger 1 on 1 as well.

Ramos wasn't done any favours by modern trend of high defensive line & Marcelo next to him – something that often puts him in risky situations, but he usually deals with those quite well. Figueroa never played for a team as dominant as Madrid/Spain though, so there's also that.

I think Ramos is a bit underrated in general, but he doesn't deserve a place in this list. Figueroa does – in my opinion.

I know, proclaiming that one better is better than another based on a fixed sample size of 10 games is insignificant.

 

[harms]

I know, proclaiming that one better is better than another based on a fixed sample size of 10 games is insignificant.

I was talking about the logic of handpicking 10 games that fit your argument instead of assessing all of the available evidence, which happens to be only a dozen or so games. Anyway, I'm not going to force my opinion on you. Personally, I don't even need 10 games to see that Messi is a genius, for example, I'd be happy with just one – and I'm pretty sure that even the best handpicked games of Hazard wouldn't be able to change my stance on who is better. Figueroa has faced the best players in history and fared incredibly well against them, as well as having a basically flawless resume. Ramos' flaws are well-documented (perhaps slightly unfairly to him), his performances against all-time great attackers often turned into a straightforward humiliation. He's also the current record holder on the most red cards in the history of 1. La Liga 2. Champions League 3. Spain 4. Real Madrid – although he is getting less rash as he gets older. Still, even at his very best games he wasn't capable of providing flawless defensive performances of Figueroa's (or Nesta's, or Baresi's) level.

 

[Swoobs]

I think I can find more people agreeing with me than you. Even top top players

You think you can but I doubt it. Just based on this thread alone, with many United fans, you are probably the only poser suggesting Scholes to be in the list. And Scholes isn’t that highly rated amongst fans of other clubs.

Scholes is a great midfielder, just like Vieria, but they do not belong to the best 20 midfielders in history, you may think he is, but you belong to a very small group who think so