You're right, forgot about that. Mata did fine.
"this midfield doesn't do enough offensively"
- Thread starter Borys
- Start date
I look at it like this, the midfield of Fred and McTominay is needed right now because both of our CB's are slow and one lacks mobility, they are the only combination we have to remedy that issue, if Axel manages to become a starter then maybe we can try one with Van de Beek, as the passing through the lines from Fred and McTominay is poor and there's a limit to how far you can go with no deeper midfielder that can really pass, yesterday Maguire and Lindelof played better passes than those 2.
For now it's the best option, but long term both should be bench players.
For now it's the best option, but long term both should be bench players.
I totally agree that McFred should be our main midfield. Need to keep investing in the front 4 and hopefully work telles in so we have enough creativity
They both have their uses no doubt, but the issue with those two as a midfield pairing is that neither of them are able to beat the press in any way. Whether it's dribbling, passing through the lines or any other method, our forwards will never pick the ball up in good enough spaces if the ball isn't progressed to them quickly enough... we literally saw this time after time last season until Matic and eventually Pogba came back in to the fray.
It's not completely on them, as many have said Dan James barely offers anything aside from tracking back, while Shaw and AWB can be quite passive in attack. But I can't think of a team in recent years that have lined up with two midfielders that struggle with moving the ball through the lines, but have gone on to have any form of success.
It's not completely on them, as many have said Dan James barely offers anything aside from tracking back, while Shaw and AWB can be quite passive in attack. But I can't think of a team in recent years that have lined up with two midfielders that struggle with moving the ball through the lines, but have gone on to have any form of success.
Eh? He has played in midfield and he played well. Perhaps a more advanced midfield position than the one I’m suggesting but it’s worth a try
Mad that no ones mentioning Pogba any more, by the way.
The McTominay and Fred pairing has its uses. PSG away, for example. They get stuck in, provide balance and play with high intensity. But neither are really good enough at breaking the lines to play in a United midfield. This was notable yesterday against a Chelsea side that were quite happy to sit back.
In games against weaker sides, I’d expect one of them to drop out and one of Pogba or van de Beek to play instead.
Our midfield selection is a real dilemma. I don’t think the two man midfield really suits our players.
In games against weaker sides, I’d expect one of them to drop out and one of Pogba or van de Beek to play instead.
Our midfield selection is a real dilemma. I don’t think the two man midfield really suits our players.
The midfield is fine, the problem was that we paid it with wingers who can't do much and fullbacks who are defensive. If we are using McTominay and Fred, use Telles at left back, put Pogba or Van de Beek instead of Mata or James and put Greenwood/Martial/Cavani as the other with Rashford. Fred and McTominay gives us a balance that we can afford more creative players. But we seem to go all out one way or another. Either Matic, Bruno, Pogba in midfield with Rashford, Martial and Greenwood top, or Fred/Mctominay and then Dan James in attack.
Feel like the same people who give this midfield a pass for not creating shit are the same who probably slate DDG for his distribution being lacking sometime
I like McFred as a midfield combo, particularly against tough opposition. Against lesser teams I’d like to see something a bit more adventurous though.
The problem we had yesterday was the wide players gave very little and our FB’s are poor offensively and we need to be better in those areas if we have 2 CM’s sitting deeper.
The problem we had yesterday was the wide players gave very little and our FB’s are poor offensively and we need to be better in those areas if we have 2 CM’s sitting deeper.
Fred 50 PL apps
1 goal 1 assist.
Mctominay 62 apps
6 goals 1 assist.
They are both CM who can do a job covering the ground against the big teams. But we sacrifice all creativity from deep playing both.
We need a DM as neither can play the role and this would allow us to play 2 from Pogba,VDB and Bruno.
1 goal 1 assist.
Mctominay 62 apps
6 goals 1 assist.
They are both CM who can do a job covering the ground against the big teams. But we sacrifice all creativity from deep playing both.
We need a DM as neither can play the role and this would allow us to play 2 from Pogba,VDB and Bruno.
When did he play for us as a midfielder? Don't recall at all.
Regarding Pogba comment:
Pogba started this season in 3 games in midfield:
- against Crystal Palace with McTominay (lost 1-3) + Martial&Rashford up front
- against Brighton with Matic (luckily won 3-2) + Martial&Rashford&Greenwood up front
- against Tottenham with Matic (lost 1-6) Martial&Rashford&Greenwood up front
Games this season Pogba didn't play from the start:
- against Luton in EFL, won 3-0 (Matic-Fred midfield) + Ighalo, Lingard, Mata and vdB
- against Brighton in EFL, won 3-0 (McTominay-Fred midfield) + Ighalo, James, Mata and vdB
- against Newcastle, won 4-1 (McTominay-Fred midfield) + Rashford, James and Mata (own goal conceded)
- against PSG, won 2-1 (McTominay-Fred midfield) + Rashford, James and Mata (own goal conceded)
- against Chelsea 0-0, (McTominay-Fred midfield) + Rashford, James and Mata
How can anyone think lack of Pogba in starting XI in midfield is a problem is beyond me. If we continue to play Fred-McTominay in midfield, we will see how they perform with proper attackers up front. Then, if we don't perform as a team, I will start to worry.
You might say that that we were drawing against PSG and Newcastle until he was introduced, but we've lost many games in which he started so there's that. And personally I think we're using Pogba exactly as he should be used, supersub role.
This seems like an entire thread with the point of proving "my opinion is right and yours is wrong".
Let's wait and see when all our midfielders are completely fit and firing as to how they do.
However, it does seem like not such a good idea to rely on Bruno for all our creativity coming from midfield.
Solksjaer's comments about playing Pogba early on in the season being a mistake is important to note here as well.
As well as the fact that we have Van De Beek who we could probably be a bit experimental with.
What seems to be forgotten is that we had 12 draws last season. Fecking 12.
Who was our midfield for most of that period?
Let's wait and see when all our midfielders are completely fit and firing as to how they do.
However, it does seem like not such a good idea to rely on Bruno for all our creativity coming from midfield.
Solksjaer's comments about playing Pogba early on in the season being a mistake is important to note here as well.
As well as the fact that we have Van De Beek who we could probably be a bit experimental with.
What seems to be forgotten is that we had 12 draws last season. Fecking 12.
Who was our midfield for most of that period?
It lacks a penetrating pass in to attack that we see Matic doing and someone who can switch it.
All our midfielders have a significant downside that can make playing in a two awkward.
Once you get to a high enough level you expect at least one midfielder that offers both a passing threat and defensive cover. Another Carrick needed.
All our midfielders have a significant downside that can make playing in a two awkward.
Once you get to a high enough level you expect at least one midfielder that offers both a passing threat and defensive cover. Another Carrick needed.
Id like to see this type of team. Would give Pogba a lot more freedom.
Pogba and VDB are very different players. VDB does a decent job winning the ball whereas thats where Pogba is lacking. He's more like Fernandes, or someone like Vidal. Aggressive and looking to win the ball even though he has quality in attack. Pogba is just good on the ball, but he is our most creative player from a deep position
Well it's 50/50 for me whether he can do a job in midfield better than anyone we have. I don't have high hopes though, from what I've seen he is pure attacking midfielder.
I'm not against giving van de Beek a chance in midfield, although I hope we don't waste half a season for another "let's try him out of position and see what happens" scenario. This approach is hindering us in the long term.
It’s true, they don’t do enough offensively, 1 goal from open play in the last 3 games when they have been on the pitch together. Doesn’t mean to say they don’t have their uses, like vs PSG both faultless played with high energy and intensity.
It's all about balance isn't it
McT/Fred is fine if you have four guns in front of you; Martial/Cavani, Rashford, Greenwood and Bruno
those two in midfield are quicker in the transition which is better for the counter-attacking games too
IMO we should play McT/Fred in the tougher games, and play the attacking lads to unlock defences against the fodder. This will help keep everyone fresh too.
It's borderline criminal if we go into another big game with a midfield of Matic and Pogba
McT/Fred is fine if you have four guns in front of you; Martial/Cavani, Rashford, Greenwood and Bruno
those two in midfield are quicker in the transition which is better for the counter-attacking games too
IMO we should play McT/Fred in the tougher games, and play the attacking lads to unlock defences against the fodder. This will help keep everyone fresh too.
It's borderline criminal if we go into another big game with a midfield of Matic and Pogba
Very limited midfield, although I feel they would work better with Donny or Mata or even Pogba, than Bruno.
The brutal truth is that if we actually had a mobile CDM in there then wouldn't need 2 holding players and midfield could express themselves more
I have a different opinion. The midfield don't create because we don't have forwards who can hold the ball.
Then our movements are terrible. It's what goes on the training ground. We don't have runners from the midfield. Ole is playing our forwards too wide. We can't carry passengers in these teams unless you are a Ronaldo or a Messi. We always do be it a James or a Greenwood. Greenwood does nothing defensively and hence become a liability if he doesn't score.
We need to go two up with a CF and one dropping deeper.
Ole is in a big mess because he can't drop Rashford or Martial and get a CF who can play as a CF who can hold the ball and who can be a threat in the air.
This is one of the reasons why our midfield can't join the attack.
Then our movements are terrible. It's what goes on the training ground. We don't have runners from the midfield. Ole is playing our forwards too wide. We can't carry passengers in these teams unless you are a Ronaldo or a Messi. We always do be it a James or a Greenwood. Greenwood does nothing defensively and hence become a liability if he doesn't score.
We need to go two up with a CF and one dropping deeper.
Ole is in a big mess because he can't drop Rashford or Martial and get a CF who can play as a CF who can hold the ball and who can be a threat in the air.
This is one of the reasons why our midfield can't join the attack.
Borys looking for excuses after a bland performance. I thought this was the CE forum for a second.
Definitely. It’s something that has to be sorted long term. I think Pogba is the odd one out at the moment, despite being the most talented of all the midfielders we have. Based on trying to fit him in the team, you’re right that a mobile DM is what’s needed. If he leaves, we probably need a more creative defensive midfielder, to go with the energy of McTominay or Fred, like a Carrick or Thiago.
McFred isn't as bad if you have our main 3 forwards in front of them as well as Bruno. We would destroy teams on the counter with those four. The issue arises more when we have a team pinned in their own half and we have to have both players making runs into the area as well as quality passers outside of it to link up and find them. When Fred and McT are the players sat trying to find those passes, the attack looks hopeless. This is where I think playing Bruno in the hole with Martial and one of Rashford or Greenwood would be more beneficial, as you could then take the forward that isn't as needed and add another creative passer instead, with either Pogba or VdB. I also think VdB helps in these areas because he's an excellent finisher and clever player inside the box, which is a great quality to have from another one of our midfielders.
It was clear that Cavani and Greenwood weren't ready to play more than however many minutes they played. Also, Solskjaer has clearly fallen out of love with Ighalo. Didn't have many options if we wanted to remain defensively solid. VDB isn't a winger.
McFred should be the basis of our midfield every game, but Ole needs to make adjustments e.g against Chelsea one of them should have come off to give us more offensive tactics or against weaker teams we shouldn’t play them both.
Quite simple really
Quite simple really
Why is that (bold mark) even a problem? The double pivot midfield job isn’t to score or assist. Let the other 5 or 6 players (front four & full back) to create goals & assists.
I'd happily start McFred in most games. Depending on the opposition we can consider starting others alongside one of these two. For now this pairing gives our defence much-needed cover and provides a platform for the front 4 (or front 3 if we have 3 at the back) to focus on attack.
This.
Like asking Carrick to score more goals. I don't want to talk about Scholes because there was no midfielder like him.
Thing is that we should not be happy with the level that McT and Fred represent. Yes they do a decent job, but are limited players. We could and should have gone for Partey who is an interceptor par excellence. Pair him with any midfielder who can pick a pass and we have something.
McT and Fred are playing because Ole can't trust the defence, the same defence he spent 145m on.
They are playing because they do what midfield does, and that is being discipline, going for 2nd ball, track the runners & not being ball watching unlike the other two he dropped after the Brighton & Spurs game. Even when we had Rio, Vidic & Evra, they still got proper discipline midfielder like Carrick & Fletcher in front of them.
Comparing Carrick to McT and Fred is insulting. Carrick passing range and football intelligence was far superior to that of McT and Fred. The duo are better compared to Phil Neville in midfield ie lots of heart and little brains/technique/passing to match. Regarding Fletcher he was a squad player for most of his career and he had more technique then the duo. He was also a squad player for most of the time as well.
Balance is important. We used to play Park to balance up the lack of workrate provided by Ronaldo. Then we added Cleverley when Scholes and Giggs were growing old. Italy won the WC with Gattuso doing the dirty work for Pirlo. However balance works both ways and having 3 mules like James, McT and Fred in midfield at the same time shift things to the other way. There's a reason to that and the reason being that the defence need all the protection it can get. Therefore we're forced to play with 2 CBs, 2 defensive FBs and 3 defensive minded midfielders (Fred, McT and James). That 8 players (+ GK) in a team of 11.
Its kind of ironic how the same people who used to criticise Mourinho for parking the park is happy with this combination. Lets hope that Penalto is on form. We will need him.
You are missing the point. It’s not comparing the quality, it’s giving you the idea what the basic thing of every midfielder should do. Carrick & Fletcher don’t do ball watching, they work their shocks off, they track runners & they are going for 2nd ball. McT & Fred know this basic. On the other hand Pogba & Matic didn’t do the basic right against Spurs & Brighton.
But it is. Sure Carrick was defensively sound but his passing was top notch. He had 40 assists in the EPL. Fletcher who, I repeat, was a squad player for most of the time had 27 assists. Do you know how many assists had Mctominay and Fred produced? 2 ie one each. How can you possible compare Carrick/Fletcher to these donkeys?
Sir Alex used Scholes as a deep lying playmaker, he used Carrick to bring balance between defence and midfield and he used Fletcher when he occasionally needed more work rate. Surely he used Park as well but unlike Ole who plays with 2 defensive FBs, Sir Alex used Evra and Gaz who could go forward, Rooney and Teveth upfront and of course Ronaldo. That's balance. Having 8 defensive minded players in a squad of 11 players doesn't provide balance. Sure it will cover the arse of a weak defence but it will hurt creativity.
I am not advocating in us playing Matic and Pogba. In fact using the pair is madness. Matic is too static and Pogba is a liability defensive wise. I wonder why Ole took so long to acknowledge that. However he can't go full defence mode either. In my opinion United should use this team
AWB-----Maguire/Lindelof-------Tuanzebe---------------Telles
----------------------Fred--------------VDB--------------------------
------------------------------Bruno-----------------------------------------
Greenwood---------------------------------------------------------Rashy-
-------------------------------Martial--------------------------------------
Tuanzebe provides the pace Maguire/Lindelof lack while VDB is far more hardworking then Pogba is while concurrently can pass the ball something McT can't. Now if Ole feels that the defence need more protection then play Shaw instead of Telles and move Telles as Winger. That's balance.
McFred is the sort of midfield you'd want to start against the likes of PSG and Chelsea, and that's what we've done to good effect.
They have their limitations, but shine in these sorts of games. What a team we'd have if Paul Pogba woke up one morning and decided, "you know what? I'll work hard with and without the ball from now on, press with my teammates, and keep my positional discipline". It seems such a simple and sensible decision really and he'd truly transform us.
They have their limitations, but shine in these sorts of games. What a team we'd have if Paul Pogba woke up one morning and decided, "you know what? I'll work hard with and without the ball from now on, press with my teammates, and keep my positional discipline". It seems such a simple and sensible decision really and he'd truly transform us.
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You are missing the point again. The basic to play in midfield isn’t having top notch passing, midfield can not being ball watching and it means they need to track runners, going for 2nd ball and be discipline. Fred, McT, Fletcher, Keane, Butt, Carrick, Scholes are discipline. They know the basic to be midfielder. Pogba and Matic didn’t do the basic against Brighton & Spurs and that’s why they were dropped and Fred & McT are playing, not because of our defense. Even Bruno knows the basic.
This isnt the case though.. Football is not about defence does its part, midfield does its part and attack does its part, its a team game.
Defending is not only about the back 5, its about defending as a team. McFred give us the defensive cover in midfield in winning the ball back, pressing opponents which neither Matic or Pogba can do.
The best teams have defensive cover.
Bayern play with Kimmich and Goretzka
Real play with Kroos and Casemeiro,
Even Pep in games goes in with Rodri and Fernandinho or Gundogan.
Liverpool play with Fabs, Henderson, Gini
Chelsea play with Kante and Jorginho
It not only provides the defensive cover, it also gives the attackers more freedom to express themselves.
If workrate alone win games then Stoke would win the treble. However don't make me stop you from comparing McT with Carrick and Scholes
We don't press enough as a team and we don't keep the ball enough.
So when we lose it cheaply, we leave the opposition with too much time to start passing, which then usually ends up with our defense getting tested.
We could bypass these issues if we were to be more potent in the counter and just pick off teams consistently, but we'd need to upgrade James and Mata for that.
So when we lose it cheaply, we leave the opposition with too much time to start passing, which then usually ends up with our defense getting tested.
We could bypass these issues if we were to be more potent in the counter and just pick off teams consistently, but we'd need to upgrade James and Mata for that.