Is Poch really the answer?

[LilyWhiteSpur]

This whole post, especially bolded. Don't understand how people don't rate Poch, he guided Spurs to one 2nd place and two 3rd place finishes in the premier league. Whilst spending almost nothing too. Great manager and unlucky not to win anything. Not sure how he'd perform under an incompetent United board but you could say the same for any manager. We aren't going anywhere until Woodward and the Glazers get out.

While I agree hes a good coach, he wasn't unlucky not to win anything, he got us to 3 semi-finals and 2 finials and each time we couldn't get over the line.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

These people know nothing about football.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

They do it so people will call in to the shows, tweet about it and rile people up. They know exactly what they are doing.

 

[dal]

Ole has won more titles than Poch.

Won the first top title in Molde’s history then won another back to back. Easy to dismiss this with the lazy argument of a shite league but it’s a genuine achievement. Winning it twice in a row shows this.

Winners find a way to win and I believe he will do exactly that, just give him the season woody.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Ole has won more titles than Poch.

Won the first top title in Molde’s history then won another back to back. Easy to dismiss this with the lazy argument of a shite league but it’s a genuine achievement. Winning it twice in a row shows this.

Winners find a way to win and I believe he will do exactly that, just give him the season woody.

Ole is definitely more of a winner than poch, Poch thinks trophies are over rated.

although Poch is probably better at setting a team up, maybe, sometimes.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

Mark Hughes has won more trophies than Poch and knows the Utd way better than Ole

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Ole has won more titles than Poch.

Won the first top title in Molde’s history then won another back to back. Easy to dismiss this with the lazy argument of a shite league but it’s a genuine achievement. Winning it twice in a row shows this.

Winners find a way to win and I believe he will do exactly that, just give him the season woody.

Ole's last title was 7 years ago. Might as well add Di Matteo to the short list

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Ole is definitely more of a winner than poch, Poch thinks trophies are over rated.

although Poch is probably better at setting a team up, maybe, sometimes.

Wut?

Poch did a fabulous job at Tottenham and his relative inexperience probably went against him at a few crunch moments. He fell short. Wasn’t good enough and didn’t get a slice of luck to bridge that gap

There is zero evidence that Poch thinks trophies are overrated. I haven’t seen anything to make me think he saw a Champions League Final loss as a success.

All of these people at the top level of any sport are focused on winning. Every tackle, game and competition.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

If the next regime is going to be Woodward / Poch we will be in the exact same position we are in now in 2 years time.

If Woodward steps aside, appoints a DOF who is on a similar wave length to Poch then the move looks far more appealing.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Wut?

Poch did a fabulous job at Tottenham and his relative inexperience probably went against him at a few crunch moments. He fell short. Wasn’t good enough and didn’t get a slice of luck to bridge that gap

There is zero evidence that Poch thinks trophies are overrated. I haven’t seen anything to make me think he saw a Champions League Final loss as a success.

All of these people at the top level of any sport are focused on winning. Every tackle, game and competition.

I’m not doubting he did a good job. I just think Ole has more of a winners personality and has experienced winning Trophies a lot more, as a player and manager.

edit to add, Poch celebrated like he’d won the tournament after winning the semi final.

and another edit. Trophies only serve to inflate ego. Little trophies don’t matter
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....o-and-tottenham-always-want-to-be-in-top-four

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I’m not doubting he did a good job. I just think Ole has more of a winners personality and has experienced winning Trophies a lot more, as a player and manager.

edit to add, Poch celebrated like he’d won the tournament after winning the semi final.

Hmmm.... the way they won the Semi I can see why.

I don’t think a ‘Winning Personality’ is a catch all term.

Keane as a player was a force of nature. Winning was the prize. He had the same desire as a manager but he lacked anything like the talent and nous to go alongside it.

I am full of love for Ole and his impact on the squad, culture and perception of our club. But he’s never going to be the guy that builds a world class team.

Had we had Fergie-LvG-Ole-Jose I think we would have remained a top club. Right people at the right time, for the right amount of time. That’s what we’ve fcuked up.

 

[Pav1878]

Wut?

Poch did a fabulous job at Tottenham and his relative inexperience probably went against him at a few crunch moments. He fell short. Wasn’t good enough and didn’t get a slice of luck to bridge that gap

There is zero evidence that Poch thinks trophies are overrated. I haven’t seen anything to make me think he saw a Champions League Final loss as a success.

All of these people at the top level of any sport are focused on winning. Every tackle, game and competition.

I think that criticism of Poch (about the trophies) is due to the fact he prioritized the PL and CL over FA Cup and LC when with Spurs and actually said he didn't care about those competitions (or words to that effect). This was a bit of an oversight on his part as Spurs needed to win something under his regime and he wouldn't now have the moniker of a coach who has won nothing.

Having said that, it also means he may be up for the big prizes and has ambition which is no bad thing if he is coming to United.

I like the guy and wouldn't mind if he became manager. Seems he is friendly but strict and that is what a manager needs to be.

Plus he is an ex defender and can drill and coach a defence, which we need right now.

It remains to be seen if he can get us playing free flowing attacking football though, but as long as we are winning and challenging at the top of the table again I don't think most United fans will be bothered. Right now, winning is all that matters.

 

[Renegade]

Expecting a squad like Spurs to challenge for all 4 cup competitions is completely unrealistic. He was right to scrap those for regular top 4 finishes and UCL challenge. Financially more beneficial to Spurs too.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

I’m not doubting he did a good job. I just think Ole has more of a winners personality and has experienced winning Trophies a lot more, as a player and manager.

edit to add, Poch celebrated like he’d won the tournament after winning the semi final.

and another edit. Trophies only serve to inflate ego. Little trophies don’t matter
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....o-and-tottenham-always-want-to-be-in-top-four

In fairness most here were supportive of Ole more or less throwing the Fa Cup semi in favour of the top four place

 

[Zlatan 7]

Hmmm.... the way they won the Semi I can see why.

I don’t think a ‘Winning Personality’ is a catch all term.

Keane as a player was a force of nature. Winning was the prize. He had the same desire as a manager but he lacked anything like the talent and nous to go alongside it.

I am full of love for Ole and his impact on the squad, culture and perception of our club. But he’s never going to be the guy that builds a world class team.

Had we had Fergie-LvG-Ole-Jose I think we would have remained a top club. Right people at the right time, for the right amount of time. That’s what we’ve fcuked up.

I agree with probably all of your post. I just think Poch lacks that Absolute drive to win, I’m not saying he wouldn’t like winning or couldn’t because of it. at the end of the day everybody wants to win, but there’s levels.

It’s going to be a massively underwhelming appointment for me if we do choose him as the next manager, no matter when

 

[RedB4ndiT]

Maybe, maybe not.

What is certain however is that Ole is NOT the answer...

 

[Zlatan 7]

In fairness most here were supportive of Ole more or less throwing the Fa Cup semi in favour of the top four place

Yes, fans here, not doing anything to win professionals

 

[peridigm]

If the next regime is going to be Woodward / Poch we will be in the exact same position we are in now in 2 years time.

If Woodward steps aside, appoints a DOF who is on a similar wave length to Poch then the move looks far more appealing.

This is what I’ve been saying in the Ole out threads. Makes no difference who we have as a manager. As long as Woodward is in charge it’s just more of the same. This is why I don’t think we should get rid of Ole yet. At some point the owners will have to step in and hire a dof or risk loosing money.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I agree with probably all of your post. I just think Poch lacks that Absolute drive to win, I’m not saying he wouldn’t like winning or couldn’t because of it. at the end of the day everybody wants to win, but there’s levels.

It’s going to be a massively underwhelming appointment for me if we do choose him as the next manager, no matter when

Perhaps. But Klopp is the easiest example to use. He’s ahead of Poch as he won a league title at a younger age than Poch is now.

But let’s not forget people routinely labelled him as a choker. The man has lost a lot of finals. Five or Six I believe.

But now he’s among the best managers on the planet.

These things aren’t linear or predictable.

We need what Ole gives the club. Balance. Quiet. Direction. Good signings of the right profile that have stopped the revolving door that costs so much. I can endorse all those that left. I can support all he’s brought in. I can even admit that he needed a big signing or two to see an easy 3rd place on the cards.

I just don’t think it ever clicks into a space that this team ever becomes a dominant side. We have one style of play and rely on brilliance. Jose and Louis did too. But their foundation was such a strong defence.

I think Pochettino is a decent blend. It would never work now that he’s had the big job, but if Ole could shape the club as a director of football, with Poch coaching the team, you’d have a great position.

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

Is the MEN article the only 'real' type of news about this?

 

[Beaucoup]

This is what I’ve been saying in the Ole out threads. Makes no difference who we have as a manager. As long as Woodward is in charge it’s just more of the same. This is why I don’t think we should get rid of Ole yet. At some point the owners will have to step in and hire a dof or risk loosing money.

I Disagree, Ole is out of his depth and is tactically inept, Woodward could have given him Sancho and any other player he was after, it doesn't change the fact that he and the other members of has management team are not good enough to manage the club.

 

[Greck]

Do you think on our current squad level that this squad is good enough to challenge for the title right now? I’m not talking about potential, I’m talking about current level now.

If competing for top 4 is the best we can do with the current squad level, that’s what we are doing and what we achieved last season. This season is still 6 league games running for us and just like last season, Ole has shown that he can still turn it around to deliver this top 4.

If we want to replace Ole now while it’s only 6 league games then it has to be a manager that can win us the league or challenge the league this season not just someone who will achieve the same thing.

None of these really address if Ole is good enough for United. That Ole can't do much with the team is on him. Who cares if another manager can or can't win with Maguire stinking up the defensive line? or AWB giving the ball away. I wouldn't expect them to because I wouldn't expect them to buy Harry freaking Maguire for 80m. If Poch does that then turns around to complain then he too will deserve to be at the unemployment office

 

[lex talionis]

I hate the idea of us sacking yet another manager in mid season, but there’s clearly no hope of us taking the next step up under Ole.

Pocchettino can do more with this squad than Ole has. Whether he has enough in his toolbox to take us back to PL and CL trophy contention is unclear. But the boat is taking on water and if we don’t act soon we may end up drowning in mid table in January, with no realistic hope of strengthening the squad and the club revenue projections in even more serious trouble.

 

[stevoc]

Ole's last title was 7 years ago. Might as well add Di Matteo to the short list

Where did Di Matteo win a league title?

 

[scudetto_boy]

I think he did an outstanding job with a club going nowhere, Spurs should've kept hold of him in my opinion. Whether or not he ends up at Utd, only time will tell.

 

[Chairman Steve]

I think Poch would rub his hands, having the likes of Rashford, Martial, Greenwood and Cavani at his disposal. Pretty sure Spurs were reliably linked with Martial during the Jose era when Martial was deemed surplus to requirements.

Plus I don’t buy into this ‘hasn’t won anything’ thing too much. In that case, Di Matteo, Laudrup, McLeish and Martinez are better than Poch then?

 

[Canuckred64]

It will be difficult for Pochettino to be successful with Woodward controlling the football end of things . He may get a temporary boost from the players but the problems will still exist unless they change the set up.

 

[RooneyLegend]

I'm not convinced. He doesn't really have an attacking structure. He would however be the best we've had since Sir Alex.

 

[Lee565]

If the next regime is going to be Woodward / Poch we will be in the exact same position we are in now in 2 years time.

If Woodward steps aside, appoints a DOF who is on a similar wave length to Poch then the move looks far more appealing.

The only thing that I say goes in his favour is that he can work far better on a budget than what ole, mourinho and van gaal all needed, only slight issue is whether potch is good at recruiting without the assistance of a director of football like he had at spurs.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

The only thing that I say goes in his favour is that he can work far better on a budget than what ole, mourinho and van gaal all needed, only slight issue is whether potch is good at recruiting without the assistance of a director of football like he had at spurs.

Wait so why do people blame Poch for the poor signings at Spurs?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

None of these really address if Ole is good enough for United. That Ole can't do much with the team is on him. Who cares if another manager can or can't win with Maguire stinking up the defensive line? or AWB giving the ball away. I wouldn't expect them to because I wouldn't expect them to buy Harry freaking Maguire for 80m. If Poch does that then turns around to complain then he too will deserve to be at the unemployment office

The rebuilding project is never gonna take 2 years, it never is. What we want to see is progress to complete the project. We moved from 6th to 3rd and players who were considered not good enough under Mourinho is now considered as good enough means players are also improving. There is sign of progress in those two years.

So I will ask the question again, do you think on our current squad level that this squad is good enough to challenge for the title right now?

 

[Greck]

The rebuilding project is never gonna take 2 years, it never is. What we want to see is progress to complete the project. We moved from 6th to 3rd. There is sign of progress in those two years.

So I will ask the question again, do you think on our current squad level that this squad is good enough to challenge for the title right now?

And I will answer again that has nothing to do with whether Ole is good enough. We finished 2nd under the previous manager and he got the boot. The next season the team only finished 6th because of Jose's sabotage season. Ole going from 6th to 3rd means nothing to me. We can give Ole a certificate of appreciation on his way out if we care so much about his monumental 3rd place finish

 

[Nicoseth]

Yes he is the answer - at least for now. He is the standout candidate for the job, and seems like he has a determination to get the job if you believe what's been written. Think he could do amazing things with this squad.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

And I will answer again that has nothing to do with whether Ole is good enough. We finished 2nd under the previous manager and he got the boot. The next season the team only finished 6th because of Jose's sabotage season. Ole going from 6th to 3rd means nothing to me. We can give Ole a certificate of appreciation on his way out if we care so much about his monumental 3rd place finish

You still don’t get it. Of course it has.The project is about winning major trophies, in order to do so it will take years and manager will need to show progress to go forward not backward like Mourinho.

In those two years we have seen improvement and going to the right direction under Ole means progress. This is going to be his 3rd year and it’s only 6 league games, not even mid season and there is time to show the improvement/progress.

So I will ask the question again, do you think on our current squad level that this squad is good enough to challenge for the title right now?

 

[united_99]

Ole is definitely more of a winner than poch, Poch thinks trophies are over rated.

although Poch is probably better at setting a team up, maybe, sometimes.

Yes, I posted this in the press conference thread:
“Unbelievable, really. In a lot of threads you read now how someone who came 3rd last year despite a paper thin squad and all key players injured or not available for longer time periods is apparently the worst manager in the league.
I for one can’t wait for the next manager to fight for the title or at least easily get 3rd place as we apparently have the 3rd best squad in the league. Surely then with someone like Poch we should easily be at least as good as last season”

I am not even sure Poch will find the answer against deep defences. How many teams where scared of Spurs and set up defensively before he fought for the league title and reached the CL final?
Maybe when they actually recognised Spurs as a top team they found out how to play against them and that’s part of the reason he had to leave the following season?
Anyway, best case we will swap a manager who knows how to play against top teams for a manager who knows how to play against weaker teams.
I am expecting LvG II plus more pressing. However key is what we will achieve with all the pressing (and maybe passing). Teams will play more defensive against United than against any club he has managed so far. Will he be able to break them down? We will find out soon enough I guess.

 

[Valuedrug]

I'm a bit in two minds about him. From what I remember, he played a pretty fluid form of football with high-intensity pressing, and I was quite impressed by Spurs' style in general, before the whole no-signings-for-a-year debacle undermined the project. Though his lack of trophies is a bit of a concern, since it could be at least partially a function of the way he engages players mentally and emotionally. I watched the Amazon documentary about Spurs, and it's pretty clear that at least Mourinho's analysis was that Tottenham we're a bit too "nice" to really go the full distance of a winning side. I don't really believe that this is a necessary condition to be at the top, since Klopps teams don't seem to be built on that kind of machismo or whatever you want to call it, but it could be a slight weakness. Then there is the whole issue with him being very demanding about individuals putting the team before anything else. I could see that clashing with some of the egos in United, and it would potentially rule out building the team around the type of exceptional but 'difficult' personalities that United have so enjoyed in the past - thinking Cantona, Keane, Ronaldo and so on. Though he managed to get a lot of Dele Alli, so maybe this won't be such a big issue either.

Out of curiousity, and partially lazyness since I can't be bothered to take any kind of deep dive into historical statistics for the purpose of figuring this out, I tried to find a few videos analysing how Poch likes to set up. If those are to be believed, it seems he does alter shapes etc. quite a bit to fit available players, different opponents etc. So not LVG's mechanical kind of philosophy, yet definitely defined, underlying principles of play that you would be able to identify both in attack and defense.

It does seem like he favors more narrow setups though with attacking full backs to create the width, and his system requires very high energy levels in order to work properly. Pogba wouldn't really fit in either, unless he is willing to start looking seriously at the flaws in his game, and Poch apparently likes to use midfielders in the mold of Dembele or perhaps Kovacic to progress the ball in the attacking third. United currently don't seem to have a squad that really fits any of these, and personally I would really like to see some proper width in the team again in the not too distant future. The kind of tippy-tappy short passing interplay he allegedly favors would be a great fit for Rashford, Martial and perhaps Greenwood though, and Bruno should like the opportunities Pochettinos 10's appear to get as well.

It would be great if United had the vision to go for something a bit more wild though. Like one of the hugely talented and young German coaches, Hassenhüttl or as others have suggested perhaps someone in the mold of Graham Potter. Or just something a bit bold for once. Obviously that doesn't really fit well with Woodwards mindset of just getting whatever will be safe from the Disneyland branding point of view, so it's unlikely to happen.

I can live with Poch though, and would be genuinely excited to see what he could do with such a young and talented squad as the one available at United.

 

[Brophs]

It’d be interesting to see how he’d do here without a striker of Kane’s calibre.

 

[elmo]

Wut?

Poch did a fabulous job at Tottenham and his relative inexperience probably went against him at a few crunch moments. He fell short. Wasn’t good enough and didn’t get a slice of luck to bridge that gap

There is zero evidence that Poch thinks trophies are overrated. I haven’t seen anything to make me think he saw a Champions League Final loss as a success.

All of these people at the top level of any sport are focused on winning. Every tackle, game and competition.

He belittled the League or FA cup and underestimated how even winning that could be the catalyst for the squad.

It's this sort of attitude that makes him questionable in my opinion.

 

[Greck]

You still don’t get it. Of course it has.The project is about winning major trophies, in order to do so it will take years and manager will need to show progress to go forward not backward like Mourinho.

In those two years we have seen improvement and going to the right direction under Ole means progress. This is going to be his 3rd year and it’s only 6 league games, not even mid season and there is time to show the improvement/progress.

So I will ask the question again, do you think on our current squad level that this squad is good enough to challenge for the title right now?

I'm not seeing this progress you speak of. We are on a treadmill. We are still as streaky as Ole's first season and still getting our arses handed by inferior teams whenever there's any onus on us to attack. We still don't know how to break teams down and just the last game we were pumping balls into the box because we couldn't work it through the middle, a problem that Jose was often criticised for. There has been minimal progress.

Why do you keep asking me if we're good enough to challenge? It's not relevant. The expectation was never to win the league this season. What kind of reductive reasoning equates that with Ole being worth sticking with?? If anything it further emphasises the failure of his tenure to have expectations this low and still constantly find himself on the hotseat.

 

[elnorte]

You still don’t get it. Of course it has.The project is about winning major trophies, in order to do so it will take years and manager will need to show progress to go forward not backward like Mourinho.

In those two years we have seen improvement and going to the right direction under Ole means progress. This is going to be his 3rd year and it’s only 6 league games, not even mid season and there is time to show the improvement/progress.

So I will ask the question again, do you think on our current squad level that this squad is good enough to challenge for the title right now?

Going in the right direction is highly debatable.

 

[Nicoseth]

It’d be interesting to see how he’d do here without a striker of Kane’s calibre.

Was thinking that too, but he did well at Southampton without him. Another way to look at it is I wonder how he would do with Pogba, Bruno, VDB, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, etc. We have a lot of talent and I think he could be hugely successful here.