Says you
I was only responding to your Jose comment. Didnt see the rest of your debate.
I'll ask for permission next time before bouncing into one
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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Says you
I was only responding to your Jose comment. Didnt see the rest of your debate.
I'll ask for permission next time before bouncing into one
Please be a troll post, I cant believe what I am reading.
People are over blowing the state of the club at the moment. No where close to Jose and Moyes ending.
Just had a look at the Jurgen Klopp thread and the comments that we were seeing in Mar-Apr'18 -Around the time Klopp was 100 games in charge of Pool
This is after our 2-1 win vs Pool
This after they beat City in the 1st leg of CL tie:
This is after our 2-1 win vs Pool
Maybe.... prepare your team to deal with route one attacks?
And I can go on on this game
This after they beat City in the 1st leg of CL tie:
I can quote more from directly after his defeat to WBA which happened 2 weeks after that 1st leg win over City, but it would make for a very long post
Yeah, we've been proven massively wrong alright. 66 points somehow got us 3rd place, fantastic. Where are we now? Going back through the same cycle again. We'll never win a PL or CL under Ole and that's what myself and others are saying. He's not got the tactical diversity to navigate a full season and overcome different types of opposition. He's just proving it again this season.
Teach him how to be a football fan
You can though. Why not try just getting behind the team, and feeling the appropriate feelings. Looking forward to every game. Joy when we win, disappointment when we lose, but supporting the team regardless. You'll enjoy the whole thing a lot more
Its not the sermon of Bilbo, its the basics. If you're that depressed about the club find something else to focus your time on.
Looking forward to your detailed analysis about Southamptons defined style of play, since you obviously watch all of their games
Whats the biggest joke is comparing Ole's first 100 games to Klopps. It's like saying you're as fast as Lewis Hamilton when you drive a Ferrari and he drives a Ford Fiesta. If we're talking stats, Ole has lost more games than Jose ever did here, in 44 games less.
He proved me wrong as well for what it's worth. I predicted 6th with last season's squad.
I enjoy the goals, so I do look forward to that. That Cavani goal even though simple, was his first goal and brought great joy.
Solskjaer finished with 4 more points compared to when Moyes was sacked in the first season. All of the deluded Ole supporters can use the 3rd place as some type of justification but what it clearly highlights is that a Solskjaer team is just as inconsistent as Moyes team when he was in charge.
Yeah 'deluded' just like I was told by you in January that results wouldn't get better when we weren't using the likes of Pereira and Lingard so often.
perhaps it’s just some fans who think he’s one defeat from the sack. You’ve no idea what the board are thinking and nor do I. However. We’ve not shown any propensity to act on a game by games basis in terms of appraising the manager.
He wasn’t being sacked yesterday, no matter the result.
I don't think he has shown enough so far to justify our optimism for the future, but at least he hasn't forfeited our season out of spite for not getting some player he wanted, which is more than you can say for the previous fan favorite.
Results improved but at what extent it took Leicester to drop almost their entire seasons form for us to claw our way back. If Manchester United acclaiming a sum total of points in the range of the 60's is what you look for in a manager than by all means stand by the manager. Mediocre coach for fans with mediocre ambitions. What I don't get is how fans would ridicule Moyes but back Solskjaer when on the premise of their tenure here Moyes achieved more if anything with less NET spend and less time. We still have a team that lacks identity and are we are pragmatically successful.
One of those managers took over a team that were serial winners and just won the league by 11 points. The other took over a team full of players with stinking attitudes like Lukaku and Sanchez, and inherited a broken team from Jose.
I’m clearly in the camp of giving Ole time. However, I understand the criticism, but to compare him to Moyes is wrong, very wrong. Two very different scenarios.
We outperformed every team but City during that run. The results improved in every objective way.
Serial winners ? Do you remember the atmosphere at the club during SAF last period. The zombie football, looking lethargic during performances and a over reliance on RVP. I certainly don't think SAF gave whoever was going to take over a fantastic squad, it was full of ageing players and many average who in managers brilliance was able to raise a level or two. This idea that SAF left Moyes with a primed squad is a myth.
As I was saying at the time which you dismissed, Leicester had had their first choice team available to that point we clearly hadn't. When fortunes with injuries changed so did the results. Switch the focus to points totals by all means if it helps deflect how clueless you look.
I think we should keep Ole until the club sack him.
Points is the objective method of assessing the total of our seasons performance. You don't need a beyond basic IQ to comprehend this nor is it too much a stretch of common sense. You can be proud of the manager because he gets the team to play well in periods accompanied by dry spells for the rest but unfortunately that's not how you win titles nor does it equate to having consistency.
I'd respect if fans gave Solskjaer his plaudits to the level of Solskjaer's capabilities. Ole is an average manager / tactician bought in to provide stability to the team. Him staying here until 2022 will not all of a sudden transform him into an elite manager because if he had the potential of doing so the writing would have been on the wall. This is why the Klopp comparisons are pointless. Klopp always had value to his name on the premise of what he had shown in Europe beforehand, even to the extent SAF said Liverpool would win the league before he had even managed his first 45 mins. The difference with our fans is that many are showing blind optimism which isn't predicated on any realistic metrics as to why Solskjaer will be a success.
Comparing one of the best managers, if not the best, of his generation with Solskjaer is indeed meaningless. This, of course, doesn't mean that Solskjaer can't or won't leave a positive imprint by the time his tenure at OT comes to an end. Arguing that he hasn't offered anything positive or that his tactics are of an infantile level is as silly as suggesting that if he's given time and a billion pounds to spend, he'll become the next Klopp. I'll go a step further and claim that Solskjaer can still be a success even if he doesn't lift a single piece of silverware by the end of his contract. But we need to understand that this was never the case with Klopp and never could have been. He went to Anfield to bring a sleeping giant back to the top by implementing his favourite style of play. Not to steady the ship, not to revive the culture of the Boot Room. Different standards and this matters when media and some fans try to form a narrative. Progression by small increments is perceived in a far more positive way when the endgame is turning your club into a powerhouse (again). What's United's story under Solskjaer? Even his most ardent supporters, when asked to draw a line and say what would be considered tangible progress, paint a very vague and hazy picture. Top four? No, because Chelsea have spent more. Around 80 points (4 more wins)? Nah, we'll have to see how competitive the rest of the PL will be. What do you expect the pundits with no affiliation with United to say? Personally, i'd be offended if they were claiming that Solskjaer is doing "a terrific job", as some claim on here because it would conclude that we are officially a non-entity in top-flight football.
Furthermore, as it is important to add context when judging Solskjaer's shortcomings and not just pointing a finger toward the money he has spent, it is also important to do the same when we bring Klopp into the discussion. Since Rogers missed the PL title by a slip, Liverpool have lost Suarez, Sterling, Coutinho and their talismanic captain. On the other hand, United are not a selling club, far from it. We are a club infamous for paying OTT prices for footballers, instead. Can you imagine us selling Rashford and Pogba to Real Madrid and Martial to City in the space of two seasons while maintaining a level of gradual improvement? Don't you think that the media and the fans would be more supportive of Solskjaer? Instead, the story of our managers in the post-SAF era is one of spending too much and having very little to show for. That's also one of the reasons Liverpool are getting much more adulation than City who are also winning major trophies.
And yes, hindsight is always 20-20 and there are several folks who will suggest that Klopp didn't face any bumps on the road, that he didn't have his share of bad transfers and that it was a seamless transition from the slums to the palaces etc. Of course, he did. He's not infallible. But he also had his signature style, it's beyond ridiculous to deny it. Someone posted on the previous pages something along the lines of "Pfff, he presses. So what?"... Well, with these pressing tactics he made it to 3 European finals, won a CL and for the last couple of seasons he's been teaching the rest of the PL how to multiply by three. Before that, he had broken Bayern's monopoly not once but twice. My question is, if his aggressive pressing is something so trivial, why is it so difficult to cope against it? The next question is what is Solskjaer's signature exactly? He's definitely not clueless and not a PE teacher. And i definitely don't have a problem with counter-attacking/transition-based football either. But what separates his brand of transition football from the rest 1000 managers who utilize such tactics? Grealish and Sancho and another 200 million pounds? For example, Ferguson's understanding of the importance of the spaces between the lines was exquisite. We weren't just throwing bodies forward and putting crosses in the box. The vertical movement of the players, off the ball, was a marvel to watch. This was what his rivals couldn't cope with, not the 442 with focus on wing-play. And joining this forum to see so many United fans not appreciating his tactical mind has been one of my major disappointments.
I believe you can still support Solskjaer's appointment without these unnecessary comparisons. As i said, he may leave the squad and the dressing room in far better position than Moyes, LvG and Mourinho did. He may even become the first manager to achieve CL qualification through the league table for two consecutive seasons and win a minor cup. But when someone suggests that he won't ever challenge for the major honours, you can't just throw Klopp/Fergie's first hundred games in charge and say "look, they struggled too". Yes, they did and it often required a giant leap of faith to keep supporting them (especially in Fergie's case) but they are also made of that special 1% material in the "here and the now" (of their respective careers, that is). And their teams reflected that on the pitch.
No they're not. You think if we lost yesterday you would of wrote that? That's why so many people who don't think Ole is good enough are so vocal. It's a recurring theme.
A run of shit results where if the club had balls Ole would be out of a job but then like yesterday 1 win changes everything for some people. I've been reading in most of the posts since Wednesdays game that even a lot of people who think he deserves more time where vocally saying they've lost faith in Ole and now after 1 result Ole is back at the wheel. Talk about flip flopping.
I'm not saying it's only the Ole in crowd who are guilty. On the opposite side peoples opinion sways depending on a game by game basis. I for one have been Ole out since he became our full time manager and I'm not going to change my mind until we find more consistency which after 2 years in charge I don't think it's too much to ask for.
no one is claiming it was his greatest team. But let’s not rewrite history, even if not a great team, we one the league by 11 points. Most managers take over a poor team, one where the manager has been sacked, it’s very rare to be given the opportunity Moyes had.
can you see how that is vastly different to the team that OGS took over?
Comparing points from the first half of last season are not comparable to the second half when we brought in Bruno and got key players back from injury. Nor are they comparable with now. If we only get 66 points this season with what I see as an improved squad then there will be more of an argument, but then again we've won the league with 75 points in the past.
As for your second point, you won't find a single post from me saying Solskjaer is an elite manager or that I think he will be a success just by giving him time.
Spot on and great post.
But the conversation has just become so polarised now that for a certain group of posters they will never admit to there being anything good to Ole's reign.
I said something similar recently in a WhatsApp group with some current and former Caf members and one person replied, what foundation has he given us, 15th in the league? And I just ended the conversation there, because I realised there was very little point to it.
What you're doing is dismissing the crux of his point, with or without Leicester injuries, that we finished on 66 points which is certainly not a total that reflects the quality of Ole's players. Even if you do consider his injuries.
Yeah makes sense, there's no real response to getting owned like that. Bet you had a sore bum from being smacked.
It really isn't
That's just your opinion. Half of the season was severely hampered by key injuries to what wasn't a great sqaud. James, Pereira, Mata, Lingard were some of our most used players, even Fred and McTominay were not seen as useful as what they are today.
Then what is? If we finish with lower than 66pts have we improved? If we improve then surely logic dictates we'll have more points on the board?
He deserves to stay on for now after getting a decent response against Everton.
I think we'll beat WBA and Istanbul B after the international break, then start to drop points from Southampton onwards.
We have a very tough December coming up also:
Having more games on the road might suit us.
I think we'll beat WBA and Istanbul B after the international break, then start to drop points from Southampton onwards.
We have a very tough December coming up also:
- Southampton (A) - 29th Nov
- PSG (H) - CL - 2nd Dec
- West Ham (A) - 5th Dec
- RB Leipzig (A) - CL - 8th Dec
- Man City (H) - 12th Dec
- Sheffield Utd (A) - 15th Dec
- Leeds Utd (H) - 19th Dec
- Everton (A) - LC QF - 23th Dec
- Leicester (A) - 26th Dec
- Wolves (H) 28th Dec
Having more games on the road might suit us.
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Points totals don't take into consideration the relative strength of the league. How injuries may have affected things. Whether cup runs would have played a factor (we played 23 times in cup competitions). Whether our fixtures were favourable or not after midweek European games. Etc etc etc
Fact is, there is no real common indicator of progress. You have to look at these things objectively.
What are you on about? Fred had his breakout year last season. You're just trying to rewrite history now.
Moreover he still had Rashford and Martial most the season, with Maguire and Wan Bissaka to shore up the defence. He chose not to bother starting Greenwood until the second half of the season, despite saying in pre season that he will help replace Lukaku from the off.
He had players available to him, he just didn't deploy the right team often enough and struggled with the right system. Funnily enough that's carried over to this season.
What are you on about? Very few were saying Fred was an important player this time last year (first half of season) and certainly not before the season started. Greenwood wasn't ready this time last year either, he's barely ready to be a regular now.
What about league position?
Would it not be a failure if we finished lower than third this season?
Actually that's not true. Even in this mega-thread, there are a lot of people who've pointed out clearly what they felt were realistic expectations and what it will take for them to keep supporting this project. I've never had issues setting that bar either:
1) Just get some positivity back, and get our squad going again / implement some United-worthy standards. He did that, changed our entire culture to resemble what it once was. It was pretty much manager boost of the century once he got in, that was a historical run especially considering how we looked prior to his emergence. He didn't get this job by a fluke, he got it on merit, something nobody expected or would have even believed unless they saw it with their own two eyes. And when that incredible run dwindled away, as most of us predicted it would, lets be honest here we still had the same players who'd been prone to downing tools for years so we knew they wouldn't bother keeping that up, he weeded out those who were considered bad influences (well as many as can be realistically expected at least I mean wages and all considered they're hard to ship off) and brought in some quality signings.
Huge let-down though, a big disappointment to me at least, was only getting our defense up to standard, not even replacing Herrera and Lukaku (nobody missed Sanchez at that point) leaving our squad so thin we'd have to depend on Mata, Lingard, Pereira and James as our main contributors up front. If we'd brought in a proper box-to-box and a creative midfielder, also a decent striker, I'd have expected a solid top-four performance next season. However I knew we'd be vulnerable to injuries and struggle in general creating enough chances after that window, I believe most did, so I lowered my expectations to the following:
2) A decent run for top-four, meaning that even if we didn't make it at least we would end up within striking distance making a respectable go at it. Considering how weak our squad was, I actually expected another season with Europa League. I felt that was realistic, and it surprised me how many were calling for his head during that first part of that season even though it clearly wasn't his fault we were struggling he was just making the best of a miserable situation. Their expectations were, all things considered, unrealistically high.
I mean come on... Our offensive setup during most of those matches were Mata, Pereira, Lingard and James, with Rashford, Pogba (who's hit-and-miss anyways) and Martial taking turns getting injured. I dare anyone to name one manager, Sir Alex included, who could turn that lineup into top-four quality. Well we made third, which was more than I expected, due to less injuries throughout the second half of the season and also Bruno coming in making such a huge difference I'm still a bit awestruck. Now just imagine if we'd gotten him during the summer, and not had to wait until January? If we did I'd have raised my expectations then to what they are now:
3) Ending this season as a solidified top-four side. We have that quality now, there's been enough time to implement the necessary cohesion too, so that's where I expect us to be when this campaign finishes. If not though, if they can't keep their motivation up and become consistent (because that's what's plaguing us now and it's a fixable problem) I'd be sad to see Ole go. Unless we miss it by a mile I would even caution against it, but at least I'd understand why. And also, more importantly: I'd still compliment him on the work he's done.
Because I remember where we were before him, and I know what conditions he's had to work under, how far behind the United of the nineties and naughties we've fallen, and you'd have to be blind not to acknowledge his contribution. I'll even say he's done as well as could be expected from anyone, and I'm especially impressed with how he's handled all the pressure and uncertainty surrounding him with everyone writing him off as a nobody and wanting him to fail it seems, even our own supporters.
I'll even go further and add that our next manager, if Solskjær doesn't make it that is (I'm still hopeful he will), should thank him for laying down the groundwork. Because thanks to Ole, he'll sure have an easier job than his predecessor ever did.
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But this is the problem everything you've noted above is the crux of what every competitive team will go through. It sounds like excuses more so than context. Because a player ends up injured what's the summation ? We write off the season because player X was injured. If this was the case many underperforming coaches would be overstaying their welcome. Every single manager who has underperformed will have an excuse to draw from out of all the aspects mentioned.
Points is a very good method of assessment, if a team finishes on 70+ points its usually an indication of them having a decent foundation of consistency. A team finishing in 60's would indicate a failure to win an average of 22 games out of 38 (in most cases top 6 form). Any teams finishing on 80-100 + is easily discerned that they are typically the best amoungst competitors.
League position is obviously all that really matters, but mention league position and you get the same tools that bang on about points total saying how Leicester collapsed or we were one fixture away from finishing 5th.
It would be a disappointment if we finished lower than 3rd but let's assess objectively at the end of the season. We might finish 5th but win the CL. Bruno might break his leg on Int'l duty. An infinite number of things can happen.
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