The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll

How's your immunity looking? Had covid - vote twice - vax status and then again for infection status

  • Vaxxed but no booster

  • Boostered

  • Still waiting in queue for first vaccine dose

  • Won't get vaxxed (unless I have to for travel/work etc)

  • Past infection with covid + I've been vaccinated

  • Past infection with covid - I've not been vaccinated


Results are only viewable after voting.

Pogue Mahone

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That's literally what's happening. The Pfizer share price (and other pharma) had a big jump after their results came out. Then when Moderna released even better results Pfizer dropped and Moderna went up. AZ released less stellar results and their price immediately tanked whilst Moderna as the current 'leader' continues to climb. It's a race.

It doesn't look great for the UK's vaccination programme if the half/full dose has to go through a new Phase 3 trial. I posted this earlier:



The Oxford vaccine falling short is exactly what is happening and they're all of a sudden looking a bit short on options. Are they going to give everybody the 60% dose regimen and then have to give everybody a second round of a better one later on?
60% efficacy still comfortably clears the bar for approval. Assuming the regulators accept what looks like a bit of a mish mash of a development program and grant a license they can still roll it out as planned.

Cross trial comparisons of a headline efficacy figure are a mugs game and it wouldn’t be the first time financial analysts don’t understand the nuances of clinical data.

Regulators just need to know the vaccine is safe and effective. Clinicians can go deep into the subtleties of the various phase III trials (which involve analysis of much more than just the primary endpoint) However at the end of the day a safe, effective vaccine you can give your patient today is a potentially life-saving intervention if the alternative is crossing your fingers and waiting another few months for an alternative.
 

Phil

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It's a combination of communicating the results poorly, giving out 1 1/2 doses instead of 2 doses accidentally (which the CEO called "serendipity") and upon discovering that their accidental dosage worked better, not having a good explanation for why that is. And upon further investigation, it was noted that their two sets of results - one 90% effective, one 62% effective - were not only done in different countries among different groups of people, but it excluded those over 55 - and it was the head of Operation Warp Speed that had to point that out, rather than AZ themselves.
Yikes! That is not a good look. Thanks for the explanation.
 

Wibble

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I don't want to get involved with you as I would only get thrown off. I will say No More but never get involved with you again. Yes, I would love to, face to face.
You are doing it again. I engage you to justify your position. You refuse on the completely invented basis that I will ban you.

And are you asking me to step outside in your last sentence :lol:

I'm guessing you are even older than me so that could be both amusing and sad in equal parts. MMA major event it wouldn't be. Even if it did happen in Hull.
 

Wibble

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I said pro COVID vaccine in the quote of mine you quoted. We are not talking about general vaccines.

mans the rest of your post I agree, there are question about the effectiveness of the Oxford vaccine and also it’s just a press release, hence why people are hesitant of just saying they’re wary and don’t want to be first in line for it. No need to beat down on them for that.

Once there has been clear information released and it is deemed safe and effectively worthwhile by the correct procedure and people, Then people may go past the point of being wary and into ignorance of not reading reviews for themselves
General vaccine reluctance is being magnified by covid. And people were saying they wouldn't take a vaccine until others took the risk well before the Oxford press release. Before and after the other vaccine press releases.
 

Kasper

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More like someone trying to beat the youtube algorithm on a forum.
"IGNORANT and SELFISH Redcafe members were SHOCKED when they realized that NOTHING is proven yet".
 

sammsky1

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A lot of the UK's recovery/speed of it relies on this working right? Spent the most money and ordered the most from them?

Also is there a chance that if this vaccine does a 'decent' job but not as good as all the others, that some countries who used the other ones may turn away people with this one? So for example the Quantas guy saying that people with vaccines can travel in the future, what if they say "that's a shit one so no flight for you"
My immediate response to Ox/AZ announcement was being underwhelmed. Let's hope that the mistaken dosage proves the numbers in the new phase III trial.

Highly doubt people around the world will want the Ox/AZ vaccine if Pfizer or Modena is available. There are already 'USA vaccine holidays' being advertised in countries like India, Thailand, Malaysia. Those able to get visa's into USA are being offered flights, accommodation and Modena vaccine for $2,500.
 
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Wibble

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My immediate response to Ox/AZ announcement was being underwhelmed. Let's hope that the mistaken dosage proves the numbers in the new phase III trial.

Highly doubt people around the world will want the Ox/AZ vaccine if Pfizer or Modena is available. There are already 'USA vaccine holidays' being advertised in countries like India, Thailand, Malaysia. Those able to get visa's into USA are being offered flights, accommodation and Modena vaccine for $2,500.
I'm not sure most of us will get much of a choice as which vaccine each country ordered, the delivery and/or manufacture under licence schedule and how easy each is to transport and administer will have huge impacts. For example, Australia has an agreement to make the Oxford vaccine under licence and is already doing so. We have an agreement to import the Phizer vaccine but not the Moderna one. So in the first half of the year Oxford will be the main vaccine with Phizer stating a bit later and other vaccine potentially being used from midyear.

And those vaccine holiday offers sound like scams to me.
 

hobbers

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Transporting and storing vaccines at -80oC is going to be quite prohibitive in a lot of places.

Be interesting to see how Moderna do comparatively with production, given that they're about 5% the size of Pfizer and AZ.
 

Wibble

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Transporting and storing vaccines at -80oC is going to be quite prohibitive in a lot of places.

Be interesting to see how Moderna do comparatively with production, given that they're about 5% the size of Pfizer and AZ.
They distribute the Ebola vaccine in Africa so not impossible if challenging.
 

jojojo

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Transporting and storing vaccines at -80oC is going to be quite prohibitive in a lot of places.

Be interesting to see how Moderna do comparatively with production, given that they're about 5% the size of Pfizer and AZ.
Moderna already has manufacturing contracts in place in the US and Europe. Plus their vaccine is stable at -20c - which puts it in standard commercial freezer territory. But yes, these vaccines will be logistically tough even in wealthy, densely populated countries, and impossible in some parts of the world - even if they're given the vaccine for free.

In principle, the mRNA vaccines can be made using standard pharmaceutical plants. It'll be getting enough raw chemical subunits and scaling up production that will be tough. Pfizer have been adding specialised freezer warehousing at their factories, and creating distribution carriers for their vaccine for months. Alongside that, they're trying to create a more temperature stable of the mRNA vaccine, and talking to smaller firms (like Novavax) about their (non-mRNA) vaccines.

Pfizer think they can make 50m doses in December, then ramp up to 100m/month through next year. Moderna think they can do about half that. Each person will need two doses.

In other words, we need more vaccines to be proven to be safe and efficacious to deal with the global pandemic. Certainly the UK/EU hope, that by Q2 the highest risk groups (basically the over 50s plus some others) will have been vaccinated, can't happen unless one of the other vaccines at trial becomes available.
 

Tibs

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How much additional data do the Pharmas have to put together before they can release it for peer review?

Is it normal for there to be enough reliable data to release worldwide press released, but not have the complete data available for review? I'd have assumed you need one for the other?
 

jojojo

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How much additional data do the Pharmas have to put together before they can release it for peer review?

Is it normal for there to be enough reliable data to release worldwide press released, but not have the complete data available for review? I'd have assumed you need one for the other?
The review panel get the preliminary data before the researchers do - it's part of how the blinding rules and independent monitoring process. At a guess, everyone in the industry will have known that AZ had enough cases to go to review. At which point, the fear of leaked data and charges of share price manipulation would kick in.

The press release is basically to fulfill that need to notify. Though it inevitably looks like something more profound - it's half way between science and a sales pitch.

The research team would have been given full access to the data only after the review team had allowed a chunk of it to be unblinded. They think they may have the first actual report ready this weekend for publication in Lancet. At any rate it'll be soon.

They may even publish an interim report, not peer reviewed, just to stop some of the criticism and answer some of the specific issues raised.
 

Tibs

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The review panel get the preliminary data before the researchers do - it's part of how the blinding rules and independent monitoring process. At a guess, everyone in the industry will have known that AZ had enough cases to go to review. At which point, the fear of leaked data and charges of share price manipulation would kick in.

The press release is basically to fulfill that need to notify. Though it inevitably looks like something more profound - it's half way between science and a sales pitch.

The research team would have been given full access to the data only after the review team had allowed a chunk of it to be unblinded. They think they may have the first actual report ready this weekend for publication in Lancet. At any rate it'll be soon.

They may even publish an interim report, not peer reviewed, just to stop some of the criticism and answer some of the specific issues raised.
Thanks
 

Brwned

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How much additional data do the Pharmas have to put together before they can release it for peer review?

Is it normal for there to be enough reliable data to release worldwide press released, but not have the complete data available for review? I'd have assumed you need one for the other?
Ultimately the benefit of more data is more precise results, you can narrow down the range of estimates, and so with interim data you have a wider range of estimates, but can still judge the range. In other words you can assess if it is effective enough to meet certain criteria, but more data will help nail down just how effective it is.

Pfizer outlined their interim analysis plans here on page 103 which essentially says:
  • After 32 covid cases they would need the efficacy to be 76.9% to declare it a success
  • After 62 cases they would need it to be 68.1%
  • After 92 cases they would need it to be 62.7%
  • After 120 cases they would need it to be 58.8%
  • After 164 cases they would need it to be 52.3%
In other words, the more data you have, the lower the target needs to be because the likelihood that it will be significantly above or below that estimate is gets smaller and smaller with more data.

To declare it a success, it would need to be more than 30% effective - the lowest possible target. On the other hand, if after 62 cases the efficacy was 27.8%, they would know enough to say that the trial was futile, and they should end it there. If the randomised trial was set up properly, it couldn't possibly be effective enough even if they collected data on 3x as many people, so they would just stop. So you don't need final data to make final judgments either way.

Those different case targets were the different stages of interim analysis they outlined - once they hit that target, they'd start analysing the numbers to see if they've passed that minimum threshold. So far, they're reporting this 90% figure based on 94 cases, i.e. beyond the halfway point, and they're well above that 62.7% threshold. So they definitely have enough data to make the claims that the vaccine is successful, not only against their own criteria but against the FDA's approval criteria. In both cases, it looks like they've gone far beyond that.

They expected to finish the trial with 164 cases, but actually they've got even more than that because it was spreading more rapidly in the US than expected. So when they produce the final results, they are expected to have a different number than that 90% - might be higher, might be lower. But what we know already is that it is high enough to get approved, and it will fall somewhere within that known range.

There's two things we're waiting on from Pfizer and co. Publishing the full results of their interim analysis in a scientific journal, which will include that same headline figure, but also dig into some of the details about how that varies across groups, what that translates into in terms of patient outcomes, what side effects come with it, etc. It's not that they don't have the data for it yet, but packaging that into a journal is just a very laborious and precise process.

The second thing is waiting for them to publish the full results of their final analysis. That isn't required for the regulators to know if they can approve it (they can give it an emergency approval on the interim data alone) but it will give us more precise estimates.
 
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Tibs

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Thanks @Brwned

Hopefully these are released soon, and approval is given so the ball can start rolling
 

Wolverine

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I would have thought that regulators would be more concerned regarding safety profile of vaccine.
Cost-benefit analysis would clearly indicate this vaccine a winner low cost per jab and upscale costs not that much due to not requiring freezing temps.
Big picture is nobody in the vaccinated arm got severe covid or needed hospitalisation, being swab-positive for covid is relevant sure but surely its the outcome from that clinically and infectiveness is what something regulators might be interested in?
 

Badunk

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Today a colleague told me that they were reluctant to take the vaccine because they're made from babies' faeces. I was dumbfounded. I wanted to see which dark corner of the internet was spouting this drivel and google came up empty. Dafuq is wrong with people?
 

Pogue Mahone

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Today a colleague told me that they were reluctant to take the vaccine because they're made from babies' faeces. I was dumbfounded. I wanted to see which dark corner of the internet was spouting this drivel and google came up empty. Dafuq is wrong with people?
They’re probably getting faeces and foetus mixed up. Some of the treatments (but none of the vaccines) were developed using foetal stem cells. Take that kernel of truth, pass it through Chinese whispers between thousands of idiots online and hey presto, you’ve got vaccines full of baby faeces.
 

sammsky1

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A lot of the UK's recovery/speed of it relies on this working right? Spent the most money and ordered the most from them?

Also is there a chance that if this vaccine does a 'decent' job but not as good as all the others, that some countries who used the other ones may turn away people with this one? So for example the Quantas guy saying that people with vaccines can travel in the future, what if they say "that's a shit one so no flight for you"
 

Buster15

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Today a colleague told me that they were reluctant to take the vaccine because they're made from babies' faeces. I was dumbfounded. I wanted to see which dark corner of the internet was spouting this drivel and google came up empty. Dafuq is wrong with people?
If they are stupid enough to believe that then nothing is going to change their mind.
 

711

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Today a colleague told me that they were reluctant to take the vaccine because they're made from babies' faeces. I was dumbfounded. I wanted to see which dark corner of the internet was spouting this drivel and google came up empty. Dafuq is wrong with people?
People are stupid. It's chimpanzee's faeces not baby.
 

jojojo

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Adverse events are a broad church. If you get run over by a car and end up in hospital then that’s categorised as a serious adverse event.
Plus, of course, these things do have to be logged. Accidents can indicate an increased clumsiness, drowsiness, dizziness etc - symptom patterns that might rely on statistics, rather than actual complaints or obvious cause/effect, to ascribe to a vaccine or other drug.

It just amused me, because what can look like a rushed trial from the outside, demands a lot of detail work on the inside.

In other news, if the Guardian is right the first vaccines used in the UK will be Pfizers and, because of the logistical issues, it will be done in hospitals and given initially to hospital workers - rather than to residents/staff of carehomes as originally suggested.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...pare-early-december-covid-vaccine-rollout-nhs
 

Wibble

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They’re probably getting faeces and foetus mixed up. Some of the treatments (but none of the vaccines) were developed using foetal stem cells. Take that kernel of truth, pass it through Chinese whispers between thousands of idiots online and hey presto, you’ve got vaccines full of baby faeces.
Today a colleague told me that they were reluctant to take the vaccine because they're made from babies' faeces. I was dumbfounded. I wanted to see which dark corner of the internet was spouting this drivel and google came up empty. Dafuq is wrong with people?
There just aren't enough facepalm memes on the internet to deal with that one.
 

Pexbo

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Adverse events are a broad church. If you get run over by a car and end up in hospital then that’s categorised as a serious adverse event.
Its understandable why they are logged too. If the vaccination saw a high level of seemingly innocuous adverse events, there would be reason to suspect that it might be having an adverse effect on motor skills, spatial awareness or general judgement.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Its understandable why they are logged too. If the vaccination saw a high level of seemingly innocuous adverse events, there would be reason to suspect that it might be having an adverse effect on motor skills, spatial awareness or general judgement.
That’s true. The main reason is to make sure that everything is reported and you don’t leave it up to the reporter to decide what is and isn’t related to the drug, as they don’t see the bigger picture. It does mean that bizarre shit ends up as part of the safety database, like being punched in the face, or standing on a nail. Neither of which are likely to be a massive risk to the average person getting a vaccine.
 

jojojo

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Time for the poll. With zero vaccines so far approved in the US or the UK, but with several in the pipeline now, for release soon - when will you get a vaccine?

The options assume that the initial rollout will be rationed/scheduled by national governments and will be based on some kind of age/risk assessment. If it won't be like that in your country then go for the closest match for how you personally are likely to act.
 

Bestietom

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You are doing it again. I engage you to justify your position. You refuse on the completely invented basis that I will ban you.

And are you asking me to step outside in your last sentence :lol:

I'm guessing you are even older than me so that could be both amusing and sad in equal parts. MMA major event it wouldn't be. Even if it did happen in Hull.
You won't have to ban me. I am leaving this forum for good.
 

snk123

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Wasn't the Oxford vaccine trials paused for a few weeks when a volunteer got multiple sclerosis?
 

nimic

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Time for the poll. With zero vaccines so far approved in the US or the UK, but with several in the pipeline now, for release soon - when will you get a vaccine?

The options assume that the initial rollout will be rationed/scheduled by national governments and will be based on some kind of age/risk assessment. If it won't be like that in your country then go for the closest match for how you personally are likely to act.
I'll get one as soon as they tell me to get one. Unless someone has a very good excuse this is the position I think everyone should have.
 

Wibble

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Wasn't the Oxford vaccine trials paused for a few weeks when a volunteer got multiple sclerosis?
Yes but not caused by the vaccine. Previously undiagnosed MS. You could get struck by lightning or have a stroke during a trial without it being causative. Now if 2 or 3 people developed MS during a trial then that would need serious investigation.
 
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Wibble

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Time for the poll. With zero vaccines so far approved in the US or the UK, but with several in the pipeline now, for release soon - when will you get a vaccine?

The options assume that the initial rollout will be rationed/scheduled by national governments and will be based on some kind of age/risk assessment. If it won't be like that in your country then go for the closest match for how you personally are likely to act.
The moment I can get one. It is my civic duty if nothing else. Part of the social contract.
 

Jippy

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Time for the poll. With zero vaccines so far approved in the US or the UK, but with several in the pipeline now, for release soon - when will you get a vaccine?

The options assume that the initial rollout will be rationed/scheduled by national governments and will be based on some kind of age/risk assessment. If it won't be like that in your country then go for the closest match for how you personally are likely to act.
Interesting side question of whether people would pay to get one done privately earlier if possible. I definitely would after experiencing the nasal swab covid test.