Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Martial'sEmergingSmile]

3-0 down in effectively a knockout tie. Mata, James, Lingard and Ighalo on the bench.

"United DNA"

 

[JG3001]

Why is this DoF suggestion coming in place? I'm sorry but it takes a special level of ignorance to just take a punt on Ole as a DoF. Just get rid, he doesn't need to have a footballing role at the club that he's not even qualified for.

Baffles me as well, what is this obsession with giving different jobs & positions out to ex players. We regularly see fans mocked for being entitled, but Jesus the old guard are just as bad. Nostalgia is killing this club, it’s the exact same as what happened with thedecline of Liverpool, we don’t and/or can’t learn.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Thanks for that. Shouldn't the new manager bounce thing be considered for the others as well? Well barring Moyes, who had no chance of being an improvement on his predecessor, that said I didn't feel the bounce lasted long under LvG either...
But irrespective of that, the stats make for some grim reading.

The bounce under LVG was in pre season. Then had 5 points after first 5 games. Mourinho had a mini bounce with 3 wins then we lost to City and things started going badly.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

It was funny yesterday when Ole was screaming pass it quicker.

None of our back 6 pass the ball quick.

Maguire, Lindelof hold the ball for an age and even their passes are so slow, where is the zip?
Shaw and AWB, have no idea how to pass forward, always wait until someone comes to them and pass to the CB. Shaw is one of the most frustrating players on the ball, there is an early ball into the wings and he never plays it.
Matic - slow af and again takes an age to pass.

Leipzig were popping the ball, one touch, fast passing.

Maybe instead of screaming it in game, we could... practice in training?

 

[Foxbatt]

Woodward and The Glazers have been criticised endlessly here and everywhere. Mostly for appointing an inexperienced novice like Ole.
The owners are not going to go and they are not going to sack Woodward. So the only realistic change is the manager. Woodward is also a shareholder now according to some newspapers.

 

[romufc]

I am not sure what are we even debating about. Is he below the par? Yes. Should he be replaced? Yes. Should Woody do it? Yes.

We are not debating. I am saying the same energy should be for both not just Ole.

 

[romufc]

Maybe instead of screaming it in game, we could... practice in training?

I am sure they do, in game these players just lack any responsibility,

I cannot believe how many times we have to see this slow passing out the back, its almost saying.. We will hold the ball, all of you (opponents), get back into shape so you can defend.

When we defend, the reason we are so out of position is the opponents attack with pace. This doesn't mean having fast players. How many Leipzig players are fast? yet they were faster on the ball.

 

[UDontMessWith24]

Can’t argue with your logic the way it panned out but, you never know, if we’d set up in any one of the ways some have suggested it may have been even worse. For one thing, it’s less than a week since VDB had to be hooked at half time.

In any case, clearly not Ole’s finest hour, we can agree there.

Another thing I would add is that we never, even under SAF, were expected to beat the very top teams in Europe. We had a chance but we were rarely favourites. The present PSG team would fall into the elite bracket and a positive result would be heavily celebrated. Leipzig made the semis last year. SAF probably would have got us through that group but let’s not pretend it would have been easy and it’s not as if Ole was miles away. I really don’t think he should be getting the heat he’s getting.

The last paragraph...good lord did you make yourself dizzy with that spin? Factually incorrect also.

 

[Striker10]

I wouldn't sack Ole. What I want to see is character. What I want to see from the players is better game intelligence. Try to get a feel for what your opponent is doing and protect yourself if it's apparent they can hurt you. At home, we need to stop feeling sorry for ourselves and be more aggressive and have a bit of pride. The seasons not over. We've had many set backs but the team showed they can come together last season but fell short. It's up to them to regain that spirit and fight and maguire as captain....it would be nice if you knew how we're starting games and made sure that stopped happening.

 

[dove]

Thanks for that. Shouldn't the new manager bounce thing be considered for the others as well? Well barring Moyes, who had no chance of being an improvement on his predecessor, that said I didn't feel the bounce lasted long under LvG either...
But irrespective of that, the stats make for some grim reading.

Others didn't join mid season. Anyway I just put it here as in the source I looked they had it separate too so I thought why not.

 

[Drz]

wiki....

The cold hard stats are that Jose spent at almost exactly the same rate, won more, lost less and had trophies to show for it also.

It's why the idea no manager can do well here is so infuriating, in hindsight you could hardly find a worse fit for United than Jose Mourinho, yet he still managed a couple of trophies, a second placed finish, a good win rate and a good loss rate.
Imagine what a top manager that is suited to our club could do?

Well said. I honestly don't understand our midfield at all since SAF retired, and even under him I felt we were a bit behind what was working in Europe.
Under all coaches, I have not felt confident in our midfield or our capacity to outplay the opposition whilst hogging the ball, the counter-attacking bit under Mourinho and Ole is fine but the rest leaves a lot to be desired.
Is there any manager out there you'd be confident in for our future? Like you I am a bit dumbfounded that none of the previous ones and the current one have been able to address the quality of our play, I feel like they all took half-measures but were unable to address the underlying issue.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

chelsea spent 300 million and aren’t running away with it. It’s not actually a guarantee of anything anymore. The organisation has been so broken that it took 300 million just to get us back to challenging for top 4. We need a proper team to kick on. Long term center forward, a dm with legs, a fecking right winger. Any manager would fail without these ingredients. Ole is succeeding despite all these handicaps and I feel he would do a lot better with real quality in those positions. What other top club has no competition for places? Rashford and martial have to start every game even when they are clearly out of form. A serious club would be finding solutions to these problems but here we are with the same old problems years later.

Ole is on a different level to our squad, a much lower one. Our squad deserves a much better manager. Hes lined up with a far superior squad against other teams and looked clueless far to many times.
Our squad isn't perfect but it is very good, it just needs a much better manager, and not someone who is trying to learn the job at our expense.

 

[GiddyUp]

Here goes, He isn’t and never will be good enough to take this team to the next level. it's never going to happen, ever.

For some reason we have too many fans who can’t see the forest for the trees.
They think that because we win a fair amount of games then Ole must be good. They can’t seem to comprehend that winning 10 away in a row to the likes of Brighton, Newcastle and West Ham isn’t actually what defines you as a top manager especially if you scrounge through most of those games.

We have very good players, and most of the time very good football players will overcome inferior football players because of their individual quality. This is how football mostly works, how this is lost on so many United fans is baffling. This is why Tim Sherwood led Tottenham to 5th place. That is why Avram Grant came 2nd and got to a CL final.

Where we constantly fall short are the crunch games, our tactics and style of play. This is where a top manager makes the difference.
We have basically lost every single one of these under Ole, bar the giant fluke in Paris.
It’s where that 5% can make a difference, being able to identify an opposition weakness, setting your team up properly, making that defining change/sub etc.

Everyone knows we have no identifiable style of play and lack cohesion defensively and going forward, which is why we look poor even against rubbish sides. This is something the top coaches do not struggle with to the degree Ole has.

People will talk about not being backed in the summer but in all honesty I’m glad he wasn’t backed. He spent 150 million on James, Maguire and Bissaka. The lack of development and improvement in Wan Bissakas game from someone who just tackles well is really telling. He is the exact same player he was 14 months ago except he’s worse positionally.
James and Maguire haven’t improved either and actually all three appear to be digressing and are three of the most criticised players on here and by other fans yet half the people on here will tell you his signings have been astute.

Meanwhile Jurgen Klopp is turning Hull players into Robert Carlos. Guardiola tends to improve most attacking players although falls short on the defensive ones.
Then you’ve got Mourinho who is sharply turning Spurs into his ideal team and Lampard now has a much better squad to work with.
This is the level and standard we’re up against, and we’re going up against it with Ole, Phelan, Carrick and McKenna who can’t tell between their arses and elbows.
Three of the greatest managers ever and this is our answer. This is not a fight we’re going to win if we tool up in this way.

Great post and I would add that an uncomfortable number of our wins have come when we've been the inferior side for the majority if the match. Without VAR we would be in Leed's premier league fall territory. And then there is Bruno Fernandes, without him we are bottom three.

 

[Berbaclass]

Ole is on a different level to our squad, a much lower one. Our squad deserves a much better manager. Hes lined up with a far superior squad against other teams and looked clueless far to many times.
Our squad isn't perfect but it is very good, it just needs a much better manager, and not someone who is trying to learn the job at our expense.

I'm by no means an Ole supporter but doesn't he have the best record against Pep?

 

[Ali Dia]

Ole is on a different level to our squad, a much lower one. Our squad deserves a much better manager. Hes lined up with a far superior squad against other teams and looked clueless far to many times.
Our squad isn't perfect but it is very good, it just needs a much better manager, and not someone who is trying to learn the job at our expense.

i disagree. Jose has the best cv in the world today and he couldn’t turn it around. It’s the owners meddling that stifles the managers work. A new manager just lets them off the hook for another few years

 

[Giggsy13]

We are now firmly considered bottlers in knockout competitions and it's no longer bad luck but a disturbing trend. Does that fall on the players too, of course it does. But I think we should all watch spurs with some interest this season. They are firmly stamped with the label of being bottlers with a reputation worse than ours. If Jose manages to win a trophy at Spurs, it shows the influence a world class manager can have on a squad with a long standing dubious reputation. Of course in stating this, it seems to undermine the prospect of Poch and whether he would be successful here since was manager during there worse moments.

 

[Giggsy13]

i disagree. Jose has the best cv in the world today and he couldn’t turn it around. It’s the owners meddling that stifles the managers work. A new manager just lets them off the hook for another few years

And it looks like Jose was right all along with Martial and Pogba. But Woodward the "football genius" failed to listen.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

I am sure they do, in game these players just lack any responsibility,

I cannot believe how many times we have to see this slow passing out the back, its almost saying.. We will hold the ball, all of you (opponents), get back into shape so you can defend.

When we defend, the reason we are so out of position is the opponents attack with pace. This doesn't mean having fast players. How many Leipzig players are fast? yet they were faster on the ball.

I'm sorry man. Just like our previous 3 managers, we don't practice passing the ball around with pace. If we did, we'd see some evidence.

Its farcical that Ole assembled the team he wanted with a very generous "war chest" yet we've never been capable of playing a consistent attacking brand of football. Heck, for a team that doesn't even attack, we're a shambles at the back.

Its the managers job to sort these issues out and he simply cannot do it. I'm not at all surprised because thats the nature of everything. Ole just isn't a good manager and thats not his fault.

 

[Ali Dia]

And it looks like Jose was right all along with Martial and Pogba. But Woodward the "football genius" failed to listen.

those lads were made untouchable by people who don’t understand football and have a history of making horrible calls. I don’t think it’s just sour grapes from managers who couldn’t cut it here anymore. There’s clearly something in it. There’s player power/untouchable status that needs to be taken away from players who’ve never won anything with us and there’s meddling owners who provide the environment for the whole exercise in failure to continue. Do you think Ole really wants to rely solely on Martial or Matic or he wouldn’t love some competition for a terribly out of form Rashford or a right winger? He’s just getting on with it with what he has

 

[romufc]

I'm sorry man. Just like our previous 3 managers, we don't practice passing the ball around with pace. If we did, we'd see some evidence.

Its farcical that Ole assembled the team he wanted with a very generous "war chest" yet we've never been capable of playing a consistent attacking brand of football. Heck, for a team that doesn't even attack, we're a shambles at the back.

Its the managers job to sort these issues out and he simply cannot do it. I'm not at all surprised because thats the nature of everything. Ole just isn't a good manager and thats not his fault.

I am sure a manager is not shouting pass it quicker only during games.

I agree, we are a shambles and we need to get a manager that can defend, pass and attack.

Its not that hard if you are a top coach tbh. Liverpool, City all have similar calibre players and dominate games from start to finish.

City or Liverpool would not go away to Leipzig and get blown away in 20 mins, it wouldn't happen.

As a manager, you know that Leipzig will have a point to prove, you expect them to come out the blocks firing. We froze.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

I am sure a manager is not shouting pass it quicker only during games.

I agree, we are a shambles and we need to get a manager that can defend, pass and attack.

Its not that hard if you are a top coach tbh. Liverpool, City all have similar calibre players and dominate games from start to finish.

City or Liverpool would not go away to Leipzig and get blown away in 20 mins, it wouldn't happen.

As a manager, you know that Leipzig will have a point to prove, you expect them to come out the blocks firing. We froze.

I'd take us being a park the bus, counter attacking team if we were consistently able to implement that style but we can't even do that. We far too inconsistent for me and that's why I struggle to have faith in Ole.

 

[UDontMessWith24]

I wouldn't sack Ole. What I want to see is character. What I want to see from the players is better game intelligence. Try to get a feel for what your opponent is doing and protect yourself if it's apparent they can hurt you. At home, we need to stop feeling sorry for ourselves and be more aggressive and have a bit of pride. The seasons not over. We've had many set backs but the team showed they can come together last season but fell short. It's up to them to regain that spirit and fight and maguire as captain....it would be nice if you knew how we're starting games and made sure that stopped happening.

What's the manager's responsibility in your opinion?

 

[OrcaFat]

The last paragraph...good lord did you make yourself dizzy with that spin? Factually incorrect also.

Sorry if factually incorrect, let me check. Which bit specifically, please?

 

[I Am Zlatan]

i disagree. Jose has the best cv in the world today and he couldn’t turn it around. It’s the owners meddling that stifles the managers work. A new manager just lets them off the hook for another few years

I’ll play devils advocate (I’m Ole out), so let’s say it’s the owners (which they do share a big part of the problem don’t get me wrong), and they’re not going anywhere. What’s the solution? Don’t you think that our team is better than this? Don’t you this team is better than Rb Leipzig? Shouldn’t we expect the team to play for 90 minutes and not 30-40 minutes, is it acceptable to be behind and try to catch up and come back (sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t), should we not be interested in better performances? Who does all that fall on? If not Ole then who? You can’t say the players, because as a coach/manager you demand/coach players to perform better, to work hard, to give them tactics to follow, to select the correct starting eleven, to better them.. we can’t say all these players are subpar, especially when we compare them to the likes of RB, Crystal palace, Brighton, Istanbul, Southampton, etc..

and that’s not even taking into account that how we go in a lot of matches as the underdogs, and set up to counter, without stamping our authority on the match..

I’m genuinely interested in your response (and Ole in in general), obviously we all want our team to be good and win trophies, I just don’t see how that will happen with Ole, and since the owners aren’t going anywhere..

I just think enough is enough, Ole have done good things as well, but we’re simply above his level, and nothing wrong with that..

 

[bond19821982]

Play 5 at the back and Angelino was a prime Giggs with lot of space to run and do first time crosses.

Play 5 at the back and play a high line with Maguire. Seriously?

You know they would target AWB and so why exactly would you play him as RWB ? This will happen again this weekend and he just never learns. Should play Williams.

You don't have to wait until half time to make a sub. You know the ball is not reaching our forwards because we don't have the midfield and we are 2-0 down. Couldn't he have made a sub around 35th min ?

What exactly was he thinking when he made a Telles - Shaw - Williams sub ?

Why was Mata (who gave us a good performance weekend) and Ighalo who could have been a proper forward occupying the defenders sitting on bench and he brought Tuanzube and TFM on ?

These are not one off cases. He just isn't good enough. Hope we pull the plug this weekend.

 

[UDontMessWith24]

Sorry if factually incorrect, let me check. Which bit specifically, please?

Do you honestly believe we were rarely favored in Europe? Starting at the season after the treble we were expected to challenge for the CL almost every season. Outside of Real's galacticos and Pep's Barca in 2011 (we were favored in the 09 final) we were rarely seen as clear underdogs. That is a bunch of nonsense spun to coddle the current manager.

 

[TsuWave]

One moment I’m going about my day normally, nothing wrong, then I get flashbacks and get pissed. feck man

Guy gave me PTSD

 

[Godfather]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/aaron-wan-bissaka-2020-21-performances.457036/post-26473037

Sharing this post so everyone can see how and why Nagelsmann mad us his bitch yesterday

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

If and when he is sacked he needs to do away with the nice guy schtick for a while and be open about how the board took his legs from under him this summer. The Lampard comparison is an obvious one and he should make it.

 

[Volumiza]

Here goes, He isn’t and never will be good enough to take this team to the next level. it's never going to happen, ever.

For some reason we have too many fans who can’t see the forest for the trees.
They think that because we win a fair amount of games then Ole must be good. They can’t seem to comprehend that winning 10 away in a row to the likes of Brighton, Newcastle and West Ham isn’t actually what defines you as a top manager especially if you scrounge through most of those games.

We have very good players, and most of the time very good football players will overcome inferior football players because of their individual quality. This is how football mostly works, how this is lost on so many United fans is baffling. This is why Tim Sherwood led Tottenham to 5th place. That is why Avram Grant came 2nd and got to a CL final.

Where we constantly fall short are the crunch games, our tactics and style of play. This is where a top manager makes the difference.
We have basically lost every single one of these under Ole, bar the giant fluke in Paris.
It’s where that 5% can make a difference, being able to identify an opposition weakness, setting your team up properly, making that defining change/sub etc.

Everyone knows we have no identifiable style of play and lack cohesion defensively and going forward, which is why we look poor even against rubbish sides. This is something the top coaches do not struggle with to the degree Ole has.

People will talk about not being backed in the summer but in all honesty I’m glad he wasn’t backed. He spent 150 million on James, Maguire and Bissaka. The lack of development and improvement in Wan Bissakas game from someone who just tackles well is really telling. He is the exact same player he was 14 months ago except he’s worse positionally.
James and Maguire haven’t improved either and actually all three appear to be digressing and are three of the most criticised players on here and by other fans yet half the people on here will tell you his signings have been astute.

Meanwhile Jurgen Klopp is turning Hull players into Robert Carlos. Guardiola tends to improve most attacking players although falls short on the defensive ones.
Then you’ve got Mourinho who is sharply turning Spurs into his ideal team and Lampard now has a much better squad to work with.
This is the level and standard we’re up against, and we’re going up against it with Ole, Phelan, Carrick and McKenna who can’t tell between their arses and elbows.
Three of the greatest managers ever and this is our answer. This is not a fight we’re going to win if we tool up in this way.

Yep, I agree with all of that.

 

[Volumiza]

3-0 down in effectively a knockout tie. Mata, James, Lingard and Ighalo on the bench.

"United DNA"

 

[Luffy]

Here goes, He isn’t and never will be good enough to take this team to the next level. it's never going to happen, ever.

For some reason we have too many fans who can’t see the forest for the trees.
They think that because we win a fair amount of games then Ole must be good. They can’t seem to comprehend that winning 10 away in a row to the likes of Brighton, Newcastle and West Ham isn’t actually what defines you as a top manager especially if you scrounge through most of those games.

We have very good players, and most of the time very good football players will overcome inferior football players because of their individual quality. This is how football mostly works, how this is lost on so many United fans is baffling. This is why Tim Sherwood led Tottenham to 5th place. That is why Avram Grant came 2nd and got to a CL final.

Where we constantly fall short are the crunch games, our tactics and style of play. This is where a top manager makes the difference.
We have basically lost every single one of these under Ole, bar the giant fluke in Paris.
It’s where that 5% can make a difference, being able to identify an opposition weakness, setting your team up properly, making that defining change/sub etc.

Everyone knows we have no identifiable style of play and lack cohesion defensively and going forward, which is why we look poor even against rubbish sides. This is something the top coaches do not struggle with to the degree Ole has.

People will talk about not being backed in the summer but in all honesty I’m glad he wasn’t backed. He spent 150 million on James, Maguire and Bissaka. The lack of development and improvement in Wan Bissakas game from someone who just tackles well is really telling. He is the exact same player he was 14 months ago except he’s worse positionally.
James and Maguire haven’t improved either and actually all three appear to be digressing and are three of the most criticised players on here and by other fans yet half the people on here will tell you his signings have been astute.

Meanwhile Jurgen Klopp is turning Hull players into Robert Carlos. Guardiola tends to improve most attacking players although falls short on the defensive ones.
Then you’ve got Mourinho who is sharply turning Spurs into his ideal team and Lampard now has a much better squad to work with.
This is the level and standard we’re up against, and we’re going up against it with Ole, Phelan, Carrick and McKenna who can’t tell between their arses and elbows.
Three of the greatest managers ever and this is our answer. This is not a fight we’re going to win if we tool up in this way.

Agreed.

 

[OrcaFat]

Do you honestly believe we were rarely favored in Europe? Starting at the season after the treble we were expected to challenge for the CL almost every season. Outside of Real's galacticos and Pep's Barca in 2011 (we were favored in the 09 final) we were rarely seen as clear underdogs. That is a bunch of nonsense spun to coddle the current manager.

Oh I see. That bit. No that is definitely not the case. Bookies in this country might have had us among the challengers but that’s just because pundits over here mainly back English teams. We were not favoured in 09 at all. We were not even favoured in 99 and damn nearly lost that as well. The amount of rose-tinted retrospection on the SAF days is out of hand. They were great days but it was always a struggle and we mainly disappointed in the CL.

 

[Polar]

The ground is burning under Ole’s feet. Big improvements are needed, if not Ole must be replaced.

At the same time I don’t think changing manager in middle of the season brings anything good. It only puts the new manager in a difficult situation. It’s best to start when this season is clarified. Then he’s able to put his own stamp on the squad, ex transfers in/out.

I think it’s best to give Ole the opportunity to prove us wrong until April. Everything depends on bringing home a title and be among top 4 at the end of the season. If so I’m happy to keep Ole.

I’m unfortunately in doubt
If the squad is good enough for our demands. Only Henderson, Rashford, Bruno, Cavani and maybe Pogba, Greenwood and Maquire (if they have quality players around them) are good enough to guarantee a title or a top 4.

 

[FatherWolff]

I get the criticism of playing Williams and subbing two left backs. Don’t know what that was all about. But to sub on mensah and tuanzebe, while trying to push everything else up front? I don’t think you have to be a rocket scientist to understand why. And it was one keepers leg from working. A few posters on here showing their true colours and levels at the moment.

 

[UDontMessWith24]

Oh I see. That bit. No that is definitely not the case. Bookies in this country might have had us among the challengers but that’s just because pundits over here mainly back English teams. We were not favoured in 09 at all. We were not even favoured in 99 and damn nearly lost that as well. The amount of rose-tinted retrospection on the SAF days is out of hand. They were great days but it was always a struggle and we mainly disappointed in the CL.

This is absolutely laughable but by all means keep digging until you look and reality is out of sight. You're almost there.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

3-0 down in effectively a knockout tie. Mata, James, Lingard and Ighalo on the bench.

"United DNA"

Pathetic from him

 

[FatherWolff]

Pathetic from him

Actually one of his best moves all game. I can think of a few other things being pathetic though.

 

[FrankDrebin]

And it looks like Jose was right all along with Martial and Pogba. But Woodward the "football genius" failed to listen.

He listened to the fans and the fans backed the players.

 

[BlueHaze]

my wife better not see that search history

'Ole's sack'
'Ole's likes to come from behind'
[insert funny pun here]

Mate