So do you think a defense with Fuch, Huth, Morgan, and Simpson was better? They were conceding 36 goals, the same record that we had last season.
The “Ole In” Brigade
- Thread starter Lentwood
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Spot on. I will be borrowing this line.
What’s that got to do with what I posted? If you look at the 6/7 posts above mine, there’s a number of similar posts from a regular forum user whingeing about people saying we’re in a title race.
I’m asking what enjoyment do you get out of the game if you moan when the clubs not doing well and you also moan when we’ve just taken 16/18pts?
This is 100% accurate. I am lucky enough to have seen Utd win every trophy imaginable, very often in the stadium.
I can say that the ups and downs are far more exciting and intense than the moment of actually “winning”. Case in point, my favourite title was the year Ronaldo scored the last minute solo goal winner against Fulham, we came from 0-2 down in the second half to win 4-2 at Goodison and the last minute winner from O’Shea in-front of the Kop. I couldn’t tell you who we beat on the final day or who came 2nd that year but I remember all those moments very clearly
Very well said
You've listed all the things that Solskjaer is lacking by way of support and then attributed our league position to luck rather than giving him any credit for it. This is what I don't understand. If you think we should be bottom half of the table based on our set up surely the manager is doing a great job in your eyes?
Not that I disagree with your point about us not being good enough challenging for the league, but using the CL as some kind of proof is meaningless in this comparison. In 2011/12 we came third and crashed into the EL in a group that had Benfica, Basle and Otelul Galati.
for gods sakes man, don't use facts! Gut feeling only please.
What's the point of having both this and would you sack or keep Ole thread at the top of the forum? They are essentially the same thing, those in favour of Ole battling those against him.
All true but arent you getting carried away with your negativity?
After 13 games (1/3rd of our season) we are right up there, and I really think the next 4 games will tell us if we can do it or not.
Leicester (currently 2nd), Wolves (our bogey team), Villa (having a brilliant season) and Liverpool (champions elect). Do you think we will be in a title race if we get 10 points out of 12 here?
We may not, and I am well aware of that but we may (even if it's a 10% chance according to you). That's enough to make me look forward to what's coming. Here is hoping that this team has matured into delivering when needed.
It seemed that I kicked a proper hornet nest here so I apologise for not answering to each and every post.
Its undeniable that there's some positives to be taken since Ole became manager. Ole has handled Greenwood magnificently and he got rid of some deadwood. I believe his greatest achievement was of stabilising the dressing room. The dressing room has costed Mourinho, LVG and Moyes career. So kudos for Ole for keeping this players at his side despite taking some tough decisions against popular players (ex Pogba and JLingz)
We're still crap in the transfer market . With the exception of Bruno whose been amazing and is the reason why Ole is still in the job our transfers were meah at best. Leicester robbed us on Maguire, Palace probably did the same with AWB, we extended Ighalo's contract out of Lulz, Telles seem to be a defensive liability (early days though) and Ole has yet to understand VDB and Cavani can fit in the system. On a positive note we're buying for the future or at least we're buying players with a decent resale value. Apart from Maguire of course whose probably worth 30m maybe 40m at best. That's also a positive.
Apart from that I can't see too many positives. Our defence keep leaking goals despite spending 145m in it. Ole seem to yet grasp what VDB can do to this team which is a shame. We've became bottlers with 3 semi finals lost and a CL qualification were we snatched a defeat from the jaws of victory against 2 teams with 1/10 of our budget. Sure we're in 3rd place. However we've only played 13 games. To put things into perspective we're as far from Liverpool at 1st place as we're far from West Ham at 10th.
I remember sharing a pint with a Liverpool fan a few decades ago. He was talking about how Liverpool are on the rise, how United will struggle in long term without king Eric and how its only a matter of time before Liverpool could go toe to toe against us. I couldn't help but laugh at it. TBF he wasn't completely deluded. Liverpool of Incey time were quite an exciting side. They had James, Friedel, Carragher, Ince (one of the few DMs who could go toe to toe with Keane), Rednapp, Mcmanaman, Berger, Fowler and Owen. There was also rumours of a kid from their youth academy who could one day be as good if not better then our own Paul Scholes (he wasn't but he did carve a half decent career for himself). However I wasn't worried to the least. Similar to our current side they had huge flaws as well both in terms of tactics and their team which they probably would never sort because of sentimentalism. It would take Liverpool decades to shed that legacy away and till then they weren't a team I was too worried about.
I genuinely like to be proven wrong however I can't see us win the EPL title with a defence that leaks goals left right and centre and I can't put my trust into a manager who spent 145m in that defence to start with. On top of that I think that United are too stuck in our ways to make the next step. I am not excluding that Ole can't become a decent manager. However in my books true progression would mean surrounding him with experienced people to help him out. That mean a top quality DOF, experienced coaches (especially defence wise) and a head of recruitment.
Now let's the witch hunt begins.
Its undeniable that there's some positives to be taken since Ole became manager. Ole has handled Greenwood magnificently and he got rid of some deadwood. I believe his greatest achievement was of stabilising the dressing room. The dressing room has costed Mourinho, LVG and Moyes career. So kudos for Ole for keeping this players at his side despite taking some tough decisions against popular players (ex Pogba and JLingz)
We're still crap in the transfer market . With the exception of Bruno whose been amazing and is the reason why Ole is still in the job our transfers were meah at best. Leicester robbed us on Maguire, Palace probably did the same with AWB, we extended Ighalo's contract out of Lulz, Telles seem to be a defensive liability (early days though) and Ole has yet to understand VDB and Cavani can fit in the system. On a positive note we're buying for the future or at least we're buying players with a decent resale value. Apart from Maguire of course whose probably worth 30m maybe 40m at best. That's also a positive.
Apart from that I can't see too many positives. Our defence keep leaking goals despite spending 145m in it. Ole seem to yet grasp what VDB can do to this team which is a shame. We've became bottlers with 3 semi finals lost and a CL qualification were we snatched a defeat from the jaws of victory against 2 teams with 1/10 of our budget. Sure we're in 3rd place. However we've only played 13 games. To put things into perspective we're as far from Liverpool at 1st place as we're far from West Ham at 10th.
I remember sharing a pint with a Liverpool fan a few decades ago. He was talking about how Liverpool are on the rise, how United will struggle in long term without king Eric and how its only a matter of time before Liverpool could go toe to toe against us. I couldn't help but laugh at it. TBF he wasn't completely deluded. Liverpool of Incey time were quite an exciting side. They had James, Friedel, Carragher, Ince (one of the few DMs who could go toe to toe with Keane), Rednapp, Mcmanaman, Berger, Fowler and Owen. There was also rumours of a kid from their youth academy who could one day be as good if not better then our own Paul Scholes (he wasn't but he did carve a half decent career for himself). However I wasn't worried to the least. Similar to our current side they had huge flaws as well both in terms of tactics and their team which they probably would never sort because of sentimentalism. It would take Liverpool decades to shed that legacy away and till then they weren't a team I was too worried about.
I genuinely like to be proven wrong however I can't see us win the EPL title with a defence that leaks goals left right and centre and I can't put my trust into a manager who spent 145m in that defence to start with. On top of that I think that United are too stuck in our ways to make the next step. I am not excluding that Ole can't become a decent manager. However in my books true progression would mean surrounding him with experienced people to help him out. That mean a top quality DOF, experienced coaches (especially defence wise) and a head of recruitment.
Now let's the witch hunt begins.
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Can’t we just enjoy that we right now are in the title race. That’s a fact. If it will last is another question. I think it’s a bonus as long as we can join the fight, but I suppose no one expect us to beat Liverpool in the end.
The team is doing ok, we seem to be progressing, we are top 3 in the table. We are inconsistent. We score a lot of goals. We are recruiting fairly sensibly. Individual players are improving. If this stops and the performances nose dive, and Ole loses the dressing room and confidence of the Management then he goes. Its that simple.
The big questions the Ole Out brigade need to answer is: when is Ole sacked? Who replaces him?
Most seem to want to do this immediately and in sort of in a vacuum, though I suppose there is Poch.
There is no way that it should happen in this moment, though if we lose the next 10 games it probably should. The major thing is, can Ole take the next step and bring consistency in the league and win when we need too, and keep developing us tactically. This is a game by game challenge. He answered a big question mark with the last 2 victories.... the crunch games we needed win when our rivals spluttered, guaranteed loss for us yet we didn't. Definite progress. Now we go again.
In essence though we should back the manager unless our results are appalling in context (i.e. where we can logically expect to be at this point in time), or he embarrasses the club, or blows up the dressing room. If he needs to go it will be very apparent and that is not the case with OGS at the moment. So in summary the Ole Out brigade are wasting their time and energy instead of supporting the good and monitoring the bad.
I think many (like me) have put the sack Ole thread on ignore a long time ago since it was always on top all the time.
Unless it's the same people posting in both threads I would assume this thread have more people in favor of rallying around the manager.
Some of these things are outside of Ole's control, except perhaps appointing additional coaches. He seems to be doing ok in spite of this so all points in his favor. What you are posing is really a question for Woodward and co. though as an outsider looking in there seems to be a better balance between Ole and Woodward&co than with previous managers. Makes sense as Ole knows the club intimately.
Anyway point being is that the risk of changing manager right now far outweigh the rewards because of the points you make at the end. Ole is playing the game well, and most other managers might not.
You are correct that our defensive jitters will for the time being most likely preclude us from major honors, but its good to have an easily identifiable area to fix. We are becoming lethal in transition, and improved at controlling play, and individually players are noticeably improving. So if Ole sorts out defense then we should be looking very handy. I personally would spend more time encouraging this fix than believing a potential complete overhaul with an unnamed future manager will be a better alternative.
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I don't particularly think there's anything wrong with this viewpoint, you've not written it in an inflammatory manner and so people should respond to you accordingly.
Personally I think it's undeniable that we are lucky to be where we are but we are well positioned & the hope is we don't have a nosedive in form like we've seen before. It's only a third or so through the season but I look at the PL and I see a handful, at most, of teams I think can beat us (Pool, City, Chelsea, Spurs, Leicester maybe) as long as we turn up and we don't see brainfarts like Pogba giving away the penalty versus Arsenal and Martial's red versus Spurs because the squad quality we have is very good in pretty much every position. That's where I disagree with you, I think Maguire (whilst being overpriced and not really suiting our style) is still a solid, if unspectacular, CB and AWB is still a top defensive RB (which despite lots of fans slating him is key because his role is important for covering Lindelof), James will become more important to the team as well in my opinion. Bruno is Bruno and without him I dread to think where we'd be.
I don't think Ole is some kind of tactical mastermind and I think his decisions in big games have been very hit and miss but, as you say, getting players happy and uniting the dressing room is a great achievement. I agree re coaches though (which you said in a previous post) I think that's where the danger lies for us because to go from competing in the top four, which we have generally been in or around since SAF, to winning the PL is a big step.
I would be celebrating if we signed Rice, Grealish and Calvert-Lewin
But I accept that each one of them will be too expensiveIs it? Would anyone really sack him if Ole admitted that he needs an experienced defensive coach, a better tactical coach + he is more comfortable if we had a top DOF on board? I very much doubt it. I admit that I am more Ole out then Ole in but such a thing would surely make me rethink my steps. It would mean to me that Ole has embraced his limits and is ready to learn from his AND the club's mistakes.
As said I am the first to admit were Ole did well. There's no chance in hell that the guy is anywhere near to Sir Alex in terms of potential but I see plenty of Allegri in him. Similar to Allegri he's a great man manager, whose tactically weak (Dolcetti cares for that stuff), he relied heavily on a DOF to make good signings for him + he loves to tinker with the first team (Ole is less of a tinker then Allegri is and thank god for that). Therefore Ole can make it work IF he surrounds himself with the right people.
So I'd said my fill. Call me whatever you want but I will only be truly excited when some real progression is made and that real progression can be made when the right people are hired to do the job. If that happens under Ole's watch then fine. If not, well, tough shit. Let's hope the next manager have the IQ to push for those changes. We need them.
@meamth was spot on. If people are discussing about challenging top 4 then people like you will moan about lowering the standard. I personally don't consider us title contender right now, not until we can beat Liverpool on 17th January and even if we beat them doesn't mean we will be the favourite to win it. But everyone have their own view about it, you disagree is fine so just leave it like that, there is no point to keep moaning about it. I can't see any reason to moan to people who want to lift up their standard, after all this is Manchester United.
Lampard was talking about Olivier Giroud by the way.
Ole doesn't throw his players under the bus, so he's unlikely to do anything different with his coaching staff. He's their boss, if he openly said he wanted someone else it wouldn't exactly make them perform their jobs better.
We don't know what happens behind the scenes. Maybe the team is more competent than it looks from the outside. We'll only know when/if we hire new coaches, like when Ole bigged up players in the media who were sold shortly after. The only news recently was that Mark Dempsey, one of Ole's coaches that he met as a youth coach in United, and that Ole brought with him to Molde and Cardiff as well, has recently changed his responsibilities from working with the first team to instead work with our Academy.
We've also hired another 3-4 coaches for our various youth teams that start working early next year.
This opens up room to bring in another first-team coach between now and the summer. It's also rumored that Phelan might move on.
It's probably not super easy to hire world class coaches either, who also needs to be the right cultural fit with the entire team.
I'm certain that Ole is evaluating options for coaches all the time. But we won't really know about it until people are hired.
Apologies, I seem to have missed the wider context then. I am all against moaning at any times. It solves nothing at all. And you don't need to be in a title race or winning trophies every week to be able to enjoy a game, season or a team.
I’m sick of the PE teacher nickname that he’s been branded .
last season he came 3rd and this season who knows , yes he could do better in the cup competitions but that will come.
Oles at the wheel!
last season he came 3rd and this season who knows , yes he could do better in the cup competitions but that will come.
Oles at the wheel!
I won't call you anything and I get the frustration at the set up of the club, though I am not sure a willful manager is the way to resolve it realistically. Regarding what may be in Ole's control I have often said he could perhaps do with bringing in some very experienced coaching as Sir Alex did from time to time. If he stagnates or regresses then Ole is gone that is for sure, and if bringing in new coaches is part of the sides progression then so be it. A good proportion of his fate and success as United manager is in his hands. So far this season in the league he is outperforming Pep, Lampard, Arteta and Jose. I hope it continues and it is shown to be no more than a purple patch.
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Yes sir. This how I approach it, it can't all be roses.
Flogging the manager had become itself too much of a fan obsession in the game and it certainly has become an obsession on the caf. Surely there has to be a place for an honest assessment of a manager’s performance without having to endure repeated calls for his sacking, which seems to spike every time we drop points.
It’s absolutely ridiculous to continue calling for Ole’s sacking no matter how we perform, when we can more reasonably assess what’s going right and wrong, which still gives us plenty of fodder for debate.
It’s absolutely ridiculous to continue calling for Ole’s sacking no matter how we perform, when we can more reasonably assess what’s going right and wrong, which still gives us plenty of fodder for debate.
Inexperienced managers need experienced people around them especially at a juggernaut club like United whose board of director happens to be filled with bankers not football people. It's not as if he can walk in Woodward's office and ask for football advice. There's nothing to be ashamed off in asking for help either. Sir Alex himself surrounded with the best assistants and coaching staff he could get his hands off, people like Mclaren, Queroz, Rene and Smith. Most were half decent managers in their own right. I dare to say that's the reason Sir Alex's career lasted so long. TBF the manager's job is a lonely and high stressful job, so having a pack of loyal yes men is quite tempting. However its very hard for a manager to reinvent his game if he surround himself with people with his same mentality.
I also understand that certain changes I am asking for (ex DOF) go beyond the manager's premise. However I do believe that Ole can push for such changes. First of all, even the staunchest Ole out admits that he loves the club. Thus he can at least push the club in that direction if he want to. Secondly if Ole leaks the need of United signing a DOF or/and head of recruitment then every single supporter whose not an idiot would rally behind him. That include most Ole outers as well. Finally the Glazers might not understand football but they do understand ££££. They probably understand that having a big chunk of that 1Billion in transfer money thrown in the bin + 3 managers sacked is not great. Honestly if we add a top DOF and maybe bring someone like Faria back then I'd consider this more of a progression then our current 3rd place.
With the squad he has now, for people who say Ole should be replaced, where should he be right now that would make you say the opposite?
I mean up to this point in the season?
More points? More wins? Higher position?
And who would do better? Eg for those who want Poch in, where day think we would be compared to where we are now?
I have some criticisms at times of Ole, but then I had a few of Fergie (oops) but ultimately he brought us great success
I mean up to this point in the season?
More points? More wins? Higher position?
And who would do better? Eg for those who want Poch in, where day think we would be compared to where we are now?
I have some criticisms at times of Ole, but then I had a few of Fergie (oops) but ultimately he brought us great success
I don't think you fully read what I wrote, I said that even if Ole wants different coaches, we will not know about it until they are hired. It very well might be that Ole wants to change out some staff, but he will speak positively about them while they are here, just like he does with players.
I also wouldn't mind if we refreshed the coaching staff a bit, but it's not like I think we will improve by just hiring some foreign name. We simply don't know what goes on during training.
But it does look like some changes have been made recently that allows room in the coaching team to bring in another person if they can find the right one.
In regards to a DOF, someone is already leaking that it seems, at times. Though, to be honest, I think most managers do not want a DOF, as that would be a potential conflict if they disagree. Hiring a DOF is a strategy from the club/board if they don't feel the manager(s) can handle it and potentially want to set it up so managers can be more easily replaced with less concern.
I can only guess what Ole wants, but if I was in his shoes the only changes I'd want in that department is maybe push for swapping the Chief Negotiator if it is true that we are struggling to land deals. And I'm not sure that we are. I don't necessarily call not landing Sancho a failure if Dortmund were not willing to lower their demands at all. The "saga" part about it all summer I believe was mostly created by the media to have something to write about.
I don’t understand how you can conclude that Palace and Leicester robbed us for AWB and Maguire. We paid market value for established PL players.
When you sign a player who has excelled in Serie A or La Liga, you take a risk. How will the player settle? Will they adapt to the culture, the weather, the dressing room? Will their partner demand a move away when they realise it pisses it down in Manchester 362 days a year and gets dark at 3pm for 4 months of the year? Will they flirt with Barcelona and Madrid the moment they have a few decent games? Will they cope with the pace and physicality of the English game?
Sure, we could have signed Sergio Serginho from Atheltic de Espana or Pablo Pasta from FC Turin for half the price and posters would have fallen over themselves with excitement, despite never having actually seen them complete 90mins.
Problem is, Ole needed “safe bets” when he walked into the club. Is Maguire world class? No. Is Wan Bissake world class? No. But are they above average players who are proven in the PL? Yes.
Once we have 15/16 players who are very capable in one or two positions, we can start taking risks. We’re probably approach that point now. When Ole arrived, we had little room for manoeuvre - two bad signings and we could have finished 10th. You pay a premium for knowing the risk for an 8/10 PL player is lower.
You don't spend 130m on two 'above average' players which is exactly how I would describe Maguire.
when you compare what we spen on Maguire to what we spent on Bailly, Jones and Rojo (wages and transfer fees) - it looks like money well spent.
some people can’t get to grips with how markets work, and the idea of scarcity.
some others just have a blind dislike of certain players for whatever reason. Unfortunately for them, they can’t even see past it when they are playing well.
Maguire has come in and done well. He’s never injured, which has been a massive problem at CB for a decade. Couldn’t care less what he cost, there was no one else available.
It's certainly not a peak time for centre backs but I don't think there's many in the division better than him.
I'd prefer booting 80m into him than keep shelling 30s on punts like Bailly Lindelof and Rojo.
Ole in? I still find myself randomly thinking 'its bloody great that Ole is our manager' about 3 times per day.
Such a difference compared to the dark days of The Toxic One.
Such a difference compared to the dark days of The Toxic One.
We're progressing. I watched a lot of United. They should get the word 'tempo' stamped on their foreheads. I think we're conscious of our weak underbelly but we've lots of potential to improve. Some people look into the future and say, Ole won't win anything. But oles rebuilding a squad and there is strong competition and there are problems with troublesome agents who might mean we miss out on targets. People need to put down this sickness. Where winning and seeing other teams win distorts reality and their perception. Because people get addicted. If you get a like on facebook, its shown people like it but in reality it's meaningless. I think many are delusional, arrogant and foolish. But in the early days of Sir Alex, there were people wanting him out! And he'd won trophies in Scotland.
Try to enjoy the game. Not let it become an addiction. Not let it turn you mean so that you throw a strop when it don't go your way. We're fortunate. And we'll be fortunate again. But enjoy the game because it's a game. We all know money has destroyed the game to a point. We know this. We know many players are frauds and many don't play out of love but to line their pockets. We'll lose again and again. Sure we'd probably struggle if we took our Bruno but that's the same in all teams. The one year we didn't win the league with Eric in the side, he was suspended for a large part of it. Madrid, would have lost many trophies without Ronaldo etc. We just got to calm down and enjoy the fact we have a manager who isn't full of shite.
Try to enjoy the game. Not let it become an addiction. Not let it turn you mean so that you throw a strop when it don't go your way. We're fortunate. And we'll be fortunate again. But enjoy the game because it's a game. We all know money has destroyed the game to a point. We know this. We know many players are frauds and many don't play out of love but to line their pockets. We'll lose again and again. Sure we'd probably struggle if we took our Bruno but that's the same in all teams. The one year we didn't win the league with Eric in the side, he was suspended for a large part of it. Madrid, would have lost many trophies without Ronaldo etc. We just got to calm down and enjoy the fact we have a manager who isn't full of shite.
We made a slightly better then ordinary Cb the most expensive Cb in the world. To make matters worse his weaknesses cannot be properly coached out of the game. Proper coaching won't make him faster or intelligent (football wise)
The guy is error prone, he's slow and commits a brainfart on a regular basis. He's not that much better to lindelof
I love Carrick as a player.
God knows what happened. But I can't get this picture out of my mind, when Carrick was all smiling like little puppy when talking to Pep. Just after a cowardies draw at home.
You're right. United coach is still amateur, most likely mr. yes man. They should not coaching one of the biggest Club in the world.
So what. He is pretty good and better than what we had. You talk about it like its some glaring transfer error that made us look foolish. It wasnt and it hasnt. Enjoy the ride mate.
Being slightly better to what we've got hardly justify spending 80m on him. I also suggest that we wait before actually saying that as well. Fans needed time before admitted that Jones wasn't the new Duncan Edwards, that Bailly wasn't the solution to our problem and that Rojo is crap. I can see Maguire taking the same route.