The “Ole In” Brigade

[devilish]

Funny that, isn't it. We finished 6th in 2019, Maguire came in and and was defensively the difference between us finishing 6th the season before, and 3rd in 2020, where we actually finished. This in turn clinched CL football which can be worth approx £60m-£80m to the club. If he stayed with Leicester, they'd have been defensively better than they were, and we'd have been defensively inferior than we were and as such, we'd have finished 5th at best, more than likely 6th again. This would have cost us the £60m-£80m (in reality we probably made just £30m by qualifying for the CL due to being knocked out at the group stages). So don't you see sometimes you've got to speculate to accumulate in football. Paying £80m instead of the £40m-£50m he's probably worth in reality, secured us CL football and going forward we're showing that consistency and are currently in 3rd place with a game in hand. This is progress and consistency we've never seen post-Fergie. You could argue the fee paid for itself in one season due to receiving £30m+ for qualifying and playing in the CL group stages.

On top of that, we had the best clean sheet record in world football last season, we made significant progress in every competition we played in, 3 semi finals. Its not the finished article in terms of where we are as a football club, but Maguire is an essential jigsaw piece. Having someone there for 55-60 games, never being injured, providing stability, scoring goals, playing his part in clean sheets and the teams defensive output is absolutely crucial. It's laughable people call him error prone. Everyone makes errors. VVD makes errors, Joe Gomez makes errors, Laporte makes errors, Upamecano makes errors. Do you home in on Maguire because of his fee? Because he's ours? Because he got into a fight on holiday? Because people call him slabhead? I'm curious, whats the agenda? Critics disappear when he marshalls us to a brilliant defensive performance thats required to get us over the line when we surrender possession for the last 15 mins of games.

Secondly, Ole isn't the only Manchester United manager that wanted Maguire. Jose Mourinho also wanted him, and was publicly critical of the board for not delivering Maguire! Mourinho would have Maguire now, so if we hadn't have gone for Maguire, not only would we have finished 5th at best last season, we'd now no doubt be behind Spurs in the league, instead of ahead of them. City also wanted him, but we got him. Yet some of our own moan about £80m like its their own friggin cash. We commercial out-perform every club in the league, and beyond so what difference does it make if we pay £60m or £80m? Next time out we have more money available, to buy players.

Thirdly, it was Woodward & Judge who decide the fees, not Ole. Ole gives his list of priorities, just like Jose used to, just like every manager in the PL does. To think Ole is sat with Leicester officials with a blank cheque saying he'll pay whatever they want is absurd.

We conceded 36 goals last season as compared to the 54 goals conceded the year before. However 2018-2019 was a disastrous season for us with Mourinho losing the dressing room and his job and Ole coming in the mid terms to save the season. If you had to compare last season to the years before that then you'll notice that we had conceded more goals last season (36) with Maguire then we conceded in 2017-2018 (28), 2016-2017 (29) and 2015-2016 (35). Regarding your 'we weakened Leicester by taking Maguire off their hands' argument that doesn't really make sense. Leicester had conceded less goals last season (43) without Maguire then the season before (48) and the 2017-2018 season (60). In few words their defence seem to have improved. Leicester has conceded less goals this season (17 goals) then we did (21) but as said it's still early days.

CBs that are record transfer signings tend to create a paradigm shift in the team. Jaap Stam was the missing piece United needed to win the treble. Rio Ferdinand came into a defence that leaked 45 goals and reduced that to 34 goals. Both had the class, the pace, the leadership and the overall talent to elevate the defence. Maguire is a strong unit and nothing more. He lacks leadership, he lacks football intelligence and he lack pace. It took us just few months for us to start talking about the dire need of us bringing in a top quality CB to do the thinking and the running for him. If thing doesn't work out with a 30m signing then he can easily be sent on the bench or sold. There's no chance either Ole or a new manager would be able to do that to an 80m CB. It makes the club and the manager look silly.

Finally we knew exactly that Maguire would cost big money to come to the club. There's no way Leicester would have sold him to us for anything less. So let's not blame Woodward on this one. The only thing I do blame Woody is for not hiring a top DOF. Someone with some brains would not have allowed this signing to happen, not on those fees.

 

[Mickson]

Spot on, who else could we have signed that would slot in exactly as he did and has ample experience in the PL.

People talk about whether the price tag is crazy, for me the simple answer is that we really didn't have an option, we had to buy a CB. Maguire was the best option that was available, by a distance.

We're a better team with him in defence. Maguire, Bruno and Rashford are the three integral players in the squad in my opinion. We may have overpaid, but in the grand scheme of things he has contributed to improving us as a team.

That's pretty weak reasoning IMO. Who? I don't know. But give me a full-time job as a scout and I find out. We have what, over 100 scouts surely? A lot of people working full-time with this. Lazy scouting going for AWB and Maguire. So if we have had an aging Gary Neville, we should've signed Seamus Coleman because he's better than what we have? Where's the ambition? Does Bayern buy Maguire for 90 million? A lot of people never question anything. Manchester United is not run great. Not before Maguire, and not after Maguire. We still have problems although things are looking slightly better than before.

 

[devilish]

@devilish a hypothetical question, if we won the league this year, would it change your opinion at all on the Maguire signing?

The answer is no. Teams can theoretically win even if it has a weak department. Sir Alex won his last league title despite our CM was screaming for new top quality talent. United has a top quality midfield and a decent forward line. The likes of Martial, Pogba, Greenwood, Rashford, VDB and Bruno can probably walk into 2/3 of the top sides in the world.

I would stop criticising Maguire if our defence stop leaking goals and individual errors are reduced substantially.

 

[devilish]

I agree on Partey's clause but that doesn't mean he'd like to move (he might do). As for Demiral, yeah, £16m is nothing in comparison but he is also 22 and definitely not someone who you'd expect to lead the defence. I can't imagine how any manager would buy a then-21 year old defender and expect them to be the cornerstone of our defence.

Also, Maguire's impact on us was immediate and profound. Our defensive record improved massively with him and AWB in the side. We also finally started building from the back in a meaningful manner. I, personally, have absolutely no problem with his transfer. The fee was high but that was the price we had to pay to get proven quality CB. People on here whined that we took months to complete the transfer and ended up paying the same amount. Well, that's the point, isn't it? We tried to get it down but Leicester wouldn't budge.

There was no CB available whose good enough to be the cornerstone of our defence and that include Maguire. He's simply lack the brains, the leadership and the pace to do so. In such circumstances the only choice we've got is to invest in CBs with right potential, quality and characteristics to succeed at United and hope for the best. We had done many signings of that ilk like Johnsen, Vidic and Evra.

Regarding your second paragraph. We conceded 36 goals last season as compared to the 54 goals conceded the year before. However 2018-2019 was a disastrous season for us with Mourinho losing the dressing room and his job and Ole coming in the mid terms to save the season. If you had to compare last season to the years before that then you'll notice that we had conceded more goals last season (36) with Maguire then we conceded in 2017-2018 (28), 2016-2017 (29) and 2015-2016 (35). Regarding your 'we weakened Leicester by taking Maguire off their hands' argument that doesn't really make sense. Leicester had conceded less goals last season (43) without Maguire then the season before (48) and the 2017-2018 season (60). In few words their defence seem to have improved. Leicester has conceded less goals this season (17 goals) then we did (21) but as said it's still early days.

 

[meamth]

If Maguire is such a good signing, and everything is fine. Why is our defense still...pretty bad? All in all, I say it's on Ole. For two reasons: He bought Maguire (and AWB) two pretty underwhelming and overpriced signings IMO. Not saying that either is a bad player, and Maguire is a sensible signing if he isn't too costly (which he was). But my biggest problem is that Maguire isn't a leader, and Lindelof isn't either. AWB couldn't lead his dog and Shaw doesn't have the ambition to lead himself. BUT the structure, the balance, the team play at the back. It's a mess. AWB constantly letting in goals at the back post, Maguire and Lindelof have the worst partnership by all center backs in the league despite playing together for two years in pretty much every game. How is that happening? And let's not talk about corners...

The team haven't clicked yet.

I always point this out in the caf, this article sums it all up for me:
https://www.skysports.com/football/...actually-clicked-pitch-to-post-review-podcast

Solskjaer has seen Harry Maguire, Paul Pogba, Anthony Martial and Mason Greenwood dip in form, yet their league position tells a different story.

They're starting to get a bit of consistency again; but the performances are not quite as consistent. That's where people get frustrated with United. We do see evidence of an exciting, attacking unit. But they still have games where you expect them to turn up and blitz a team, but they struggle.

The players just don't seem to have that same motivation and drive every week. That is currently the difference between a team like Liverpool and a team like Manchester United and others

I don't want any signings, just waiting for them all to click and perform, and by then we can see us improve a lot.

 

[georgipep]

There was no CB available whose good enough to be the cornerstone of our defence and that include Maguire. He's simply lack the brains, the leadership and the pace to do so. In such circumstances the only choice we've got is to invest in CBs with right potential, quality and characteristics to succeed at United and hope for the best. We had done many signings of that ilk like Johnsen, Vidic and Evra.

Regarding your second paragraph. We conceded 36 goals last season as compared to the 54 goals conceded the year before. However 2018-2019 was a disastrous season for us with Mourinho losing the dressing room and his job and Ole coming in the mid terms to save the season. If you had to compare last season to the years before that then you'll notice that we had conceded more goals last season (36) with Maguire then we conceded in 2017-2018 (28), 2016-2017 (29) and 2015-2016 (35). Regarding your 'we weakened Leicester by taking Maguire off their hands' argument that doesn't really make sense. Leicester had conceded less goals last season (43) without Maguire then the season before (48) and the 2017-2018 season (60). In few words their defence seem to have improved. Leicester has conceded less goals this season (17 goals) then we did (21) but as said it's still early days.

I've never used an argument to say we've bought Maguire to weaken Leicester, you must be mistaking me with someone else.

As for the comparisons, I can't see the logic in comparing to any other season but the one before. Things before that become blurry, different teams, different opponents, different player abilities. For me, Maguire brought a lot of stability and defensive ability to our back four and I'm happy we have him.

Also, I can't agree that we should've bought a young CB because at that point, with our leaky defence, that could've been catastrophic for both the team and the player. We needed "a sure thing".

 

[Mickson]

The team haven't clicked yet.

I always point this out in the caf, this article sums it all up for me:
https://www.skysports.com/football/...actually-clicked-pitch-to-post-review-podcast




I don't want any signings, just waiting for them all to click and perform, and by then we can see us improve a lot.

I don't agree with that at all. We weren't outplayed by West Ham because we don't have enough motivation, it was because our style of play isn't clear and that we are dependent on Bruno Fernandes creativity. But if the motivation is a problem, it's obviously up to Ole and his stab to motivate his players. Out of curiosity, how long should we wait before a team clicks? I have made the comparison with Leicester before, how fast Brendan had his team play the way he wants. Same with Potter.

 

[Aresma7]

I don't agree with that at all. We weren't outplayed by West Ham because we don't have enough motivation, it was because our style of play isn't clear and that we are dependent on Bruno Fernandes creativity. But if the motivation is a problem, it's obviously up to Ole and his stab to motivate his players. Out of curiosity, how long should we wait before a team clicks? I have made the comparison with Leicester before, how fast Brendan had his team play the way he wants. Same with Potter.

yet still, Brendan hasn’t won shit. We weren’t outplayed, we just didn’t have a good game. The lengths you guys will go to prove a point. Outplayed by west ham.lol

We are finally somewhat in a better course than in previous years. And now you use Brendan as an example of how good Leicester is? You would risk sacking ole now just because he doesn’t play a pattern? to get a guy that plays in a pattern? Hahaha

 

[Zlatan 7]

I’ve enjoyed being ‘Ole in’ over the last two years or so, most refreshing exciting football since SAF.

Yes I get frustrated now with results and performances now and again but that’s a good thing, it got to a point in the time between SAF and Ole that I became numb to the games and results so didn’t even bother to get frustrated, win a few cups yes while sleeping my way through the season not liking most of the team.

It’s 100% a better experience being a United fan with Ole managing than the shit that went before him

 

[Mickson]

yet still, Brendan hasn’t won shit. We weren’t outplayed, we just didn’t have a good game. The lengths you guys will go to prove a point. Outplayed by west ham.lol

We are finally somewhat in a better course than in previous years. And now you use Brendan as an example of how good Leicester is? You would risk sacking ole now just because he doesn’t play a pattern? to get a guy that plays in a pattern? Hahaha

And Ole has spent over 2 billion and hasn't won anything, what does that say? We weren't outplayed? Yes we were in the first half. Yes, we are in a better place. That doesn't mean that Ole is the right guy to take us forward. It does mean that he has done several things right, but that isn't the same thing. We should be winning titles now, we should fight for the league title. Maybe we will, maybe we don't. But that's where we should be. Yes, Ole has had over two years with this squad, they should play better football but most important: They should have a clear pattern. As LvG said the other day, it doesn't seem that they are training very hard with the coaching on specific things like pattern. We kind of look lost sometimes.

 

[eire-red]

That's pretty weak reasoning IMO. Who? I don't know. But give me a full-time job as a scout and I find out. We have what, over 100 scouts surely? A lot of people working full-time with this. Lazy scouting going for AWB and Maguire. So if we have had an aging Gary Neville, we should've signed Seamus Coleman because he's better than what we have? Where's the ambition? Does Bayern buy Maguire for 90 million? A lot of people never question anything. Manchester United is not run great. Not before Maguire, and not after Maguire. We still have problems although things are looking slightly better than before.

Bayern can afford to be more patient, and look for those hidden gems like Davies bacuase they're so dominant in the Bundesliga. They can buy younger talents and slowly integrate them, as can the other top teams around Europe.

I'm sure we could have bought someone who will eventually be better than Maguire, but who could we have bought that would instantly improve us? De Ligt? Shaky start to his Juventus career, clearly didn't want to come here. Koulibaly maybe, but untested in the PL. Upamecano? Still too young and raw, look at the roasting Rashford gave him. Varane is unattainable, and doesn't look secure at all without Ramos beside him. I'm sure there are more that we could discuss, but you get the point.

The alternative was to trust our scouts to unearth another Bailly, or Lindelof even, give them 2/3 seasons to adjust and see what happens. Does that sound like an optimal solution to you? If we didn't buy Maguire last season, there's not a chance we finish third.

You talk about how badly out club is run and how Maguire is an example of this. Not a chance, the example is Bailly, Rojo, Jones, players on huge contracts that aren't anywhere near the level of Maguire. Maguire probably has played more football in the last year than those 3 combined in the last 3 seasons. They're the example, and proof that sometimes it's worth overpaying for one quality player that's consistent, dependable and never injured, than throwing another 60m down the drain on a couple of maybe's who might do the job. Last summer was such a critical window, we couldn't afford to take that chance.

 

[Mickson]

Bayern can afford to be more patient, and look for those hidden gems like Davies bacuase they're so dominant in the Bundesliga. They can buy younger talents and slowly integrate them, as can the other top teams around Europe.

I'm sure we could have bought someone who will eventually be better than Maguire, but who could we have bought that would instantly improve us? De Ligt? Shaky start to his Juventus career, clearly didn't want to come here. Koulibaly maybe, but untested in the PL. Upamecano? Still too young and raw, look at the roasting Rashford gave him. Varane is unattainable, and doesn't look secure at all without Ramos beside him. I'm sure there are more that we could discuss, but you get the point.

The alternative was to trust our scouts to unearth another Bailly, or Lindelof even, give them 2/3 seasons to adjust and see what happens. Does that sound like an optimal solution to you? If we didn't buy Maguire last season, there's not a chance we finish third.

You talk about how badly out club is run and how Maguire is an example of this. Not a chance, the example is Bailly, Rojo, Jones, players on huge contracts that aren't anywhere near the level of Maguire. Maguire probably has played more football in the last year than those 3 combined in the last 3 seasons. They're the example, and proof that sometimes it's worth overpaying for one quality player that's consistent, dependable and never injured, than throwing another 60m down the drain on a couple of maybe's who might do the job. Last summer was such a critical window, we couldn't afford to take that chance.

Just because Jones is poor business and Maguire is better than that, doesn't make it great. See my Coleman point. Exactly the same. My understanding is that Ole is building long term, and I'm fine with buying young talents who will develop into class players. And that is our philosophy! It should be added with players like Bruno, but I'm not buying that AWB and Maguire are fantastic business by any means. I stand with my opinion that it's lazy business. The easy way. That's why we have spent so much money.

 

[eire-red]

Just because Jones is poor business and Maguire is better than that, doesn't make it great. See my Coleman point. Exactly the same. My understanding is that Ole is building long term, and I'm fine with buying young talents who will develop into class players. And that is our philosophy! It should be added with players like Bruno, but I'm not buying that AWB and Maguire are fantastic business by any means. I stand with my opinion that it's lazy business. The easy way. That's why we have spent so much money.

I definitely never said Maguire was great business, it was more along the lines of necessary business.

So in your view, you would have preffered us to go into last season with Bailly, Lindelof and Jones as our defenders, and a young talent? I'm sorry, but to me that is just crazy. Every top team cherry picks talented players around the world to develop into class players, but you have to have your core squad in order first.

Buying young is our philosophy, but Fergie added youth to teams that had top class professionals. If we started last season without spending big on our defence, and instead had Dalot at RB and some young CB partnered with Lindelof, that's not sticking to our philosophy at all, that's accepting the mediocrity that's been seeping into this club over the last 7 years.

On your Coleman point, we replaced Neville with Rafael, a young prospect from Brazil who we signed with a view to develop. I'm not sure what your angle is with the Coleman point? That we should have signed him?

 

[Gasolin]

I don't get the Maguire story. He's being solid again, and he is definitely helping the team.
We make individual mistakes but we are reducing them.
Also, it's really key that Maguire has never been injured for us.
How many times have we struggled with defenders who kept being injured, forcing us to update the lineup?
Maguire is the model to follow.
It gives us more stability.

Furthmore, the offensive side is clicking a bit more.
Mind you, we haven't even kicked in our season for our forward line that was able to score 60+ goals last season (Rashford, Martial, Greenwood).
If they kick in, while Bruno, and the others do the numbers, we will look good.

The table looks good, we have to focus on winning the remaining games in Dec and Jan, that's all.
And I trust Ole to be able to instill this kind of mentality.

If we want to win the league, we need to be relentless.
Fitness, and the ability to be mentally strong, will be key.
It's not something that will be easy for a team that is as young as ours, but it's something we can achieve if the team trusts Ole's experience of winning titles over and over again.

 

[Verminator]

Maguire may not warrant the record price tag, but as it isn’t my money anyway, it holds less sway with me.

I'm happy that, with him always being available, we have a chance to build some cohesion in defence.
Cycling between Smalling, Jones, Rojo, Bailly, or an emergency midfield fire fighter in central defence, is the antithesis of stability and consistency.

Expensive, but he covers 5-6 players needed to do the same job, only not as well as him.

 

[Hughie77]

No, he won't be here no matter what he does. He will be here if the current trajectory is the way we go forward. If he starts to lose a lot of matches and we start to struggle and get to the bottom half he will get sacked.

He will see out the season, that's a given. Theres is no point in sacking a manager after January unless the board have a manager to come straight in. So the wheels would have to really fall off I cant see it even if its Europa league places hes not getting sack. If he is where Arteta is then he gets sack. Cant see it getting that bad. It's a building project that's getting shoots of recovery, so Ole no matter what he does this season wont get sack.

 

[Hughie77]

I don't get the Maguire story. He's being solid again, and he is definitely helping the team.
We make individual mistakes but we are reducing them.
Also, it's really key that Maguire has never been injured for us.
How many times have we struggled with defenders who kept being injured, forcing us to update the lineup?
Maguire is the model to follow.
It gives us more stability.

Furthmore, the offensive side is clicking a bit more.
Mind you, we haven't even kicked in our season for our forward line that was able to score 60+ goals last season (Rashford, Martial, Greenwood).
If they kick in, while Bruno, and the others do the numbers, we will look good.

The table looks good, we have to focus on winning the remaining games in Dec and Jan, that's all.
And I trust Ole to be able to instill this kind of mentality.

If we want to win the league, we need to be relentless.
Fitness, and the ability to be mentally strong, will be key.
It's not something that will be easy for a team that is as young as ours, but it's something we can achieve if the team trusts Ole's experience of winning titles over and over again.

Noticed in last few game With Maguire he get rid of the ball quicker. This is helping I think with attacks, as before opposition would leave Maguire have it give him the space to run into then his options were to just give it sideways, opposition defence is always in position.

Of late Maguire is passing it early and not coming up pitch so much . And as you say hes very rarely injured, big plus .

 

[Hughie77]

No, he won't be here no matter what he does. He will be here if the current trajectory is the way we go forward. If he starts to lose a lot of matches and we start to struggle and get to the bottom half he will get sacked.

Not happening

 

[Mickson]

I definitely never said Maguire was great business, it was more along the lines of necessary business.

So in your view, you would have preffered us to go into last season with Bailly, Lindelof and Jones as our defenders, and a young talent? I'm sorry, but to me that is just crazy. Every top team cherry picks talented players around the world to develop into class players, but you have to have your core squad in order first.

Buying young is our philosophy, but Fergie added youth to teams that had top class professionals. If we started last season without spending big on our defence, and instead had Dalot at RB and some young CB partnered with Lindelof, that's not sticking to our philosophy at all, that's accepting the mediocrity that's been seeping into this club over the last 7 years.

On your Coleman point, we replaced Neville with Rafael, a young prospect from Brazil who we signed with a view to develop. I'm not sure what your angle is with the Coleman point? That we should have signed him?

I didn't say that we should've found some young guy, just a different angle. Look at Leicester CB business. That's what I'm talking about. And the fact that we could have bought Maguire on the cheap a couple of seasons ago just tells you everything about how our club is run. My Coleman point is that, should we always buy someone slightly better? I mean, Coleman would've strengthened our RB position, but would he have gotten us to the top? No. We bought Maguire for 90 million, but will he take us to the CL or even PL title? I sincerely doubt that. We spent 90 million on what, something that takes us from sixth to third? Is that how business is done, is that how a club should be run?

 

[ReddBalls]

We spent 90 million on what, something that takes us from sixth to third?

With that logic, Liverpool spent 40 million on Mané, who only took them from 8th to 4th.

Edit: In a far less inflated market.

 

[Mickson]

With that logic, Liverpool spent 40 million on Mané, who only took them from 8th to 4th.

Edit: In a far less inflated market.

With that logic, it's even better money spent. With that said, they won the title with him (being a key player) and they are going to win again. Also won the CL. So.

 

[ReddBalls]

With that logic, it's even better money spent. With that said, they won the title with him (being a key player) and they are going to win again. Also won the CL. So.

As you're judging Maguire's impact one third into his second season, I suggest you do the same with Mané. No one knew back where that team or player would end up years later.

The other option is obviously to wait and see where this team ends up.

 

[anant]

With that logic, it's even better money spent. With that said, they won the title with him (being a key player) and they are going to win again. Also won the CL. So.

But, if we say win the league this season or next or whenever, with him in the squad, you'd have to say the same about Maguire as well - he'd be an integral member of the squad

 

[Mickson]

But, if we say win the league this season or next or whenever, with him in the squad, you'd have to say the same about Maguire as well - he'd be an integral member of the squad

If we win the league with Maguire, I will change my mind. Then he is obviously good enough for that and we can justify the high fee. Do I think we will? No. But that's just my opinion!

 

[eire-red]

I didn't say that we should've found some young guy, just a different angle. Look at Leicester CB business. That's what I'm talking about. And the fact that we could have bought Maguire on the cheap a couple of seasons ago just tells you everything about how our club is run. My Coleman point is that, should we always buy someone slightly better? I mean, Coleman would've strengthened our RB position, but would he have gotten us to the top? No. We bought Maguire for 90 million, but will he take us to the CL or even PL title? I sincerely doubt that. We spent 90 million on what, something that takes us from sixth to third? Is that how business is done, is that how a club should be run?

I suppose Ole was hoping for a VVD style of improvement in Maguire when he made the jump from Leicester. He hasn't quite had that, but I think he's definitely improved us.

I get what you're saying, I really do. I think the fact is simply that before we signed Maguire our defence was shocking, we had to act. We couldn't gamble on this signing. To be honest, I think if Maguire brings us from 6th to a nailed on Top 3 team consistency getting CL football, and giving us a springboard to launch a title challenge then he's definitely worth it.

We may not win the title from his signing, and that will be disappointing. But I think it was a signing we needed to pull us out of those 6th or 7th place nothing finishes that we're never going to be a springboard from where we could then do as you say, be a bit more clever in the market.

 

[Tiber]

If this form keeps up the media might actually be forced to stop sneering at him for a second and say something nice about him.

If a Trendy, media approved manager like Arteta had a side playing like this the media would be holding fundraisers for a statue.

 

[alexthelion]

And Ole has spent over 2 billion and hasn't won anything, what does that say? We weren't outplayed? Yes we were in the first half. Yes, we are in a better place. That doesn't mean that Ole is the right guy to take us forward. It does mean that he has done several things right, but that isn't the same thing. We should be winning titles now, we should fight for the league title. Maybe we will, maybe we don't. But that's where we should be. Yes, Ole has had over two years with this squad, they should play better football but most important: They should have a clear pattern. As LvG said the other day, it doesn't seem that they are training very hard with the coaching on specific things like pattern. We kind of look lost sometimes.

Ole should be winning the league because he's had two years? How long did it take Klopp? Even SAF?

Unrealistic expectations from an entitled fanbase.

 

[Lentwood]

Think all of the people still criticising Ole and talking about winning trophies need to seriously take a reality check and think back to some of the low points over the last 5/6 seasons.

Right now, I’m just delighted we’re not embarrassing ourselves on a weekly basis and the fans have a team we can be excited to watch and respect.

 

[Withnail]

And Ole has spent over 2 billion and hasn't won anything, what does that say? We weren't outplayed? Yes we were in the first half. Yes, we are in a better place. That doesn't mean that Ole is the right guy to take us forward. It does mean that he has done several things right, but that isn't the same thing. We should be winning titles now, we should fight for the league title. Maybe we will, maybe we don't. But that's where we should be. Yes, Ole has had over two years with this squad, they should play better football but most important: They should have a clear pattern. As LvG said the other day, it doesn't seem that they are training very hard with the coaching on specific things like pattern. We kind of look lost sometimes.

And where did LVG's amazing patterns get us?

It's a very strange time to make this kind of argument.

 

[Icemav]

Ole should be winning the league because he's had two years? How long did it take Klopp? Even SAF?

Unrealistic expectations from an entitled fanbase.

Extremely entitled. I think they should all take a long vacation. They shouldnt force themselves to support the club.

 

[Green_Red]

Oles at the wheel lads. A couple of months back we were saying the team needed consistency. Now we need momentum to keep us moving forwards. We've barely any injuries and our squad actually looks like it has some strength in depth. I don't know what anyone has to complain about. Maguire was shakey at the start of the season but he has seemed more settled lately. It was great to see a few more defenders play well tonight too. Don't forget this Everton side have made fools out of a few defences so far this season too.

 

[Jonno]

We conceded 36 goals last season as compared to the 54 goals conceded the year before. However 2018-2019 was a disastrous season for us with Mourinho losing the dressing room and his job and Ole coming in the mid terms to save the season. If you had to compare last season to the years before that then you'll notice that we had conceded more goals last season (36) with Maguire then we conceded in 2017-2018 (28), 2016-2017 (29) and 2015-2016 (35). Regarding your 'we weakened Leicester by taking Maguire off their hands' argument that doesn't really make sense. Leicester had conceded less goals last season (43) without Maguire then the season before (48) and the 2017-2018 season (60). In few words their defence seem to have improved. Leicester has conceded less goals this season (17 goals) then we did (21) but as said it's still early days.

Irrelevant, the same players were on the pitch in 1 season, and they performed badly. Maguire came in, an essential piece of our jigsaw and gave us the best clean sheet record in world football. You ignore this as if it didn't happen. We conceded a chunk less goas last season with Maguire in the team than the season before. You can only solve the challenges you have in front of you. You can't say "yeah but it doesn't count cus Mourinho got sacked and Ole came in". Accept that Maguire came in, and was the key difference. Playing 50+ games, leading the line, captaining the side, providing crucial goals and providing crucial clean sheets is the backbone of a winning team. We improved our defensive record on the previous season when Maguire WASNT THERE, and improved our league and cup finishes on the previous year, also when Maguire WASNT THERE. Yet you're ignoring it because the internet laughs at him every time he makes a rare mistake. Like I said in my previous post, all CB's make mistakes, I've seen them all do it. Ours, other teams, since the early 1990s. Its just that because Maguire is English, expensive and had a fight in Greece, the media and social media like to pan him at every opportunity. Note no criticism from media outlets in recent weeks whilst he plays an essential part in our title challenge form.

CBs that are record transfer signings tend to create a paradigm shift in the team. Jaap Stam was the missing piece United needed to win the treble. Rio Ferdinand came into a defence that leaked 45 goals and reduced that to 34 goals. Both had the class, the pace, the leadership and the overall talent to elevate the defence. Maguire is a strong unit and nothing more. He lacks leadership, he lacks football intelligence and he lack pace. It took us just few months for us to start talking about the dire need of us bringing in a top quality CB to do the thinking and the running for him. If thing doesn't work out with a 30m signing then he can easily be sent on the bench or sold. There's no chance either Ole or a new manager would be able to do that to an 80m CB. It makes the club and the manager look silly.

A little unfair to compare Maguire to a completely different type of CB - Stam or Ferdinand, he's not. The only CB who I would have that conversation about is Virgil Van Dyck. But you're falling into this old trap, where spoilt fans say "well he's not as good as Rio so why did we sign him?". Fact is, he's proven he's a leading PL CB. The Rio of this generation wasn't available, he was signed by Liverpool. Not only has Maguire assisted United in dramatically improving their defence, league finishes, cup finishes, but he's been to a world cup semi final and was key to that defence. He's part of a spine that is one of the favourites for the upcoming EURO 2020. You might not like him, clearly you don't. But you're ignoring all the positives he does bring to the team. Jaap Stam needed a Ronny Johnsen next to him to make a great pairing. I remember Pallister coming in to compliment an excellent CB, but slow CB - Steve Bruce. Pallister was quick and would sweep up all sorts. Bruce was slow, was sometimes laughed at for random mistakes... twitter didn't exist then so it was briefly highlighted on match of the day and then that was it, there wasn't this permanent catalogue of threads on twitter or Red Cafe. Apart from lack of pace, Bruce was brilliant, he would command the back line, head just about anything and would pop up with goals. The attributes in the comparison are similar. Bruce won multiple titles at United. Much more fair to compare Maguire to someone like Bruce than Rio Ferdinand or Jaap Stam. Shame that is the ONLY criteria that fits your bill for a top level CB. It wasn't Fergies though fortunately, and it isn't Oles (or Peps, or Joses). So thankfully, top level managers/coaches have different opinions to that of you, a Red Cafe poster.

Finally we knew exactly that Maguire would cost big money to come to the club. There's no way Leicester would have sold him to us for anything less. So let's not blame Woodward on this one. The only thing I do blame Woody is for not hiring a top DOF. Someone with some brains would not have allowed this signing to happen, not on those fees.

So why then, are you blaming Ole Gunnar for bringing in Maguire, despite Jose wanting Maguire, despite Pep wanting Maguire. Somebody was going to buy him, a leading team was going to pay that fee. Be glad its us, we're better for it. If you're so bothered about the fee. Remember the fact our CL qualification that Maguire crucially helped us get, practically paid the "Man United inflation" in one go, and some. Why are you so bothered about transfer fees, does it come out of your monthly salary? This football club makes the most in the world, and across most sports per year, so we can go again next summer and bring more big money players in.

 

[anant]

We conceded 36 goals last season as compared to the 54 goals conceded the year before. However 2018-2019 was a disastrous season for us with Mourinho losing the dressing room and his job and Ole coming in the mid terms to save the season. If you had to compare last season to the years before that then you'll notice that we had conceded more goals last season (36) with Maguire then we conceded in 2017-2018 (28), 2016-2017 (29) and 2015-2016 (35).

Dave's Godly form and us having overachieved (compared to the underlying numbers) is pretty much the only reason why Maguire and Ole aren't rated highly. Look at any relevant underlying stat - if you believe models look at that, else simple - shots, SoT, shots conceded, tackles, etc. metrics would work as well. You'd notice we were 5th-6th best team in England even in that season. We were expected to have conceded 42-43 goals in 17-18 and conceded 28. Last year, we were pretty much at the xGA number. If DDG was in that form now, we'd pretty much be conceding 20 odd goals in a PL season.

 

[Mickson]

And where did LVG's amazing patterns get us?

It's a very strange time to make this kind of argument.

To a title? No, what's strange is changing your opinion based on two good games. It's only a couple of weeks ago we were knocked out of CL needing 1 point from two games.

 

[Withnail]

To a title? No, what's strange is changing your opinion based on two good games. It's only a couple of weeks ago we were knocked out of CL needing 1 point from two games.

You mean he won a cup while boring us all to tears.

Who said anything about changing their opinion based on two games?

 

[ForeverRed1]

This squads the best it’s been since fergie left. Is it the finished product? No. Are we a million miles of a top top squad? Nope.
I’m really really hoping he gets backing over next few transfer windows. We can’t afford to think we’re playing well so it doesn’t need investment.

Liverpool we’re starting to look really good, they went out and bought vvd, Alison and the rest is history. We’re a couple worldy signings away from competing!

world Class cb, a productive right wing and a solid cdm and we’re looking decent. Also maybe a right back to compete with awb?

 

[Mickson]

You mean he won a cup while boring us all to tears.

Who said anything about changing their opinion based on two games?

Yes, but he had a style of play and he won things. That's what we discussed.

You said it was strange timing, like I shouldn't say it now because we won two in a row.

 

[LJJT]

Some nonsense spoken in this thread and in general. It’s utterly pointless comparing points/league positions to previous years. This is the here and now. If a team wins the league with 60 points they are still the best team at the time, irrespective if it wouldn’t have got a team in 8th in previous years. “Patterns of play” or “style” are other nonsense spoken by many. We play good, attacking football, winning football over the past 11 months. Bielsa and Dyche have an “identity” or style of play, it ain’t getting them very far. Ole should be praised for how he’s adapting and tweaking the team week after week and we are on the right track.

 

[Withnail]

Yes, but he had a style of play and he won things. That's what we discussed.

You said it was strange timing, like I shouldn't say it now because we won two in a row.

He won a Cup and his style was awful. Winning a Cup isn't an indicator of future success. He got sacked as we were going nowhere.

I'm saying it's a strange time as we recovered well last year to climb from 14th place to finish 3rd and after 13 league games this year we are third with a game in hand.

That's a hell of a bigger sample size then 2 games and the football is miles better than anything served up by LVG.

 

[Mickson]

He won a Cup and his style was awful. Winning a Cup isn't an indicator of future success. He got sacked as we were going nowhere.

I'm saying it's a strange time as we recovered well last year to climb from 14th place to finish 3rd and after 13 league games this year we are third with a game in hand.

That's a hell of a bigger sample size then 2 games and the football is miles better than anything served up by LVG.

Ole was the one that got us in 14th place, so weird saying it's an achievement when he's the one that got us there. Like saying that Koeman deserves credit at Barca because they're not 10th in the table anymore, they're fifth!!! But if you think third place (in the last game) with historically low points per game for the place is impressive for Manchester United then we don't have much to say to each other anyway. I'm not impressed by his results, by his football, by his in-game management among other stuff. With that said, he has built a better squad than the previous managers and I think the next manager will have an easier job thanks to him. But I'm sure Ole isn't the one to take us to the big titles.