Ronaldo vs Ronaldo

[Raees]

L. Ronaldo was my biggest idol growing up, but i do think he gets romanticized by some people. Just like the defenses in the past. Defenses were less organized back then. Players had more space and time, so i dont buy that players nowadays have it easier. Your control nowadays has to be so tight. In the past your touch could be heavy and you could get away with it.

Same with Ronaldo, he was one of the best, but when i hear people say that he could dribble or pass like messi, i cringe. He was a great dribbler in the open space, but overall he didnt come close. Ronaldo wasnt perfect like some people like to put it. He was getting outscored by Bierhoff who played at Udinese in one of those peak years of his. That doesnt seem like a goat peak if bierhoff scores more than you.

Defences were not weaker back then. Just watch a single Maradona video and look at the ferocity of defending and it is a different world to what we see now.

The modern game has intensive pressure but very few dangerous challenges and thus top players are more able to avoid collision injuries. The defenders are also not that smart from a defensive IQ point of view... you just have to see how few rivals there are to VVd to see how the standard has dropped.

Having said that you make a fair point of R9s passing game. It was not anything to shout about and one of the big factors why I never saw him as a true GOAT candidate... as a striker, he’s one of if not the best but overall game, wouldn’t be in my top 3.

 

[lex talionis]

Is there a "two" missing before "World Cup wins" by any chance? He obviously did just that four years later.

I agree that 1998 Brazil team was really good, and would have stood a chance under ideal conditions.

Fair point. I should have clarified by adding the word “two”.

Ronaldo9 was incredibly close to pulling off that feat but for whatever happened to him in France the morning of the WC final. I certainly had Brazil as the favorite to win that game, having assumed Ronaldo9 was fit.

 

[Camara]

I think people either don't remember or never saw (L) Ronaldo playing an entire season.
He didn't do magical runs 24/7 on demand, like all players he had many "idle" moments and his cold wet wednesdays at Vallecas, that's why he didn't score trillions of goals and/or assists.

He definitively was a brilliant and world class player but he's nowhere near Messi and (C) Ronaldo. These 2 barely go idle, they're always there scoring or assisting and they also do magical stuff too.
Preferring (L) Ronaldo playstyle and strong points is perfectly valid but trying to put him in the league of these 2 (magic + decisiveness + output) is mad imho,

 

[Zehner]

When comparing goalscoring exploits.... especially in Madrid, bear in mind, Figo was the penalty taker in R9's days in substantially lower GPG scoring teams.

For instance, his 3 first seasons(league only) - they were a 2 goals per game team of which he scored 30% of.... only 2 being penalties, while Figo scored 14 pens in that time frame.

Ronaldos 2nd-4th season... RM were a 2.85gpg team... of which Ronnie scored 33%, of which 26 were penalties.

I'm also comparing seasons where R9 is wildly considered to massively on the slide and obviously post 3 year injury with more or less CR7's peak scoring years..... which are kind of, actually, never ending really.

Somebody should fix that. So many in here talk about romanticizing but don't consider the goal inflation at all.

R9 scored 34 goals in 37 league matches for Barca, averaging 94 minutes per goal, in 96/97. Barca scored 2.42 goals per game that season.

Then he scored 25 in 32 for Inter in 97/98, averaging 114 minutes per goal. Inter scored 1.82 (!) goals per game that season and was among the top 5 attacking sides of the Serie A - that's how hard it was to score in Italy back then.

Cristiano scored 48 in 35 games in 14/15, averaging 64 minutes per goal but Real scored 3.1 goals per game back than.

So even only looking at scoring data, it isn't much of a difference if you consider the context. Penalties come on top of that. However, R9 obviously isn't solely remembered as a goal scorer - his dribbling and pace were on a completely different level than CR7's.

 

[jdotman]

When I said dominant, I was generalising more across the 3 WC squads he was in. Maybe they weren’t as dominant in ‘02 but from what I saw, Rivaldo was more influential than R9 that tournament but didn’t receive a fraction of the plaudits. I’m not even trying to discredit R9 but the same logistics used against CR7 (nothing but a finisher) must be applied here too. There was nothing genius about R9 at the 2002 World Cup.

What? He scores 8 goals in 7 games and leads Brazil to a world cup after being out of football completely for well over a year, scores a solo run goal in a 1-0 win in the semis, then goes on to score 2 goals in a 2-0 win in the final. Can you imagine the amount of pressure on his shoulders before that final keeping in mind what happened 4 years earlier? Had they lost again that would've definitely been the main narrative of his career, nobody would've cared about the other 6 goals he scored in that tournament, but he still made the difference for his country. Ronaldo in the 2002 WC was nothing but genius.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Brazilian Ronaldo’s legacy has been improved by his injury issues. “If only it wasn’t for the injuries...?”

he was a brilliant player, but C Ronaldo is the better player. Perhaps the Barca season is better than any one of C Ronaldo’s, but even that is arguable.

there’s no doubt in my mind who the better player was.

 

[Poltophagy]

I think people either don't remember or never saw (L) Ronaldo playing an entire season.
He didn't do magical runs 24/7 on demand, like all players he had many "idle" moments and his cold wet wednesdays at Vallecas, that's why he didn't score trillions of goals and/or assists.

He definitively was a brilliant and world class player but he's nowhere near Messi and (C) Ronaldo. These 2 barely go idle, they're always there scoring or assisting and they also do magical stuff too.
Preferring (L) Ronaldo playstyle and strong points is perfectly valid but trying to put him in the league of these 2 (magic + decisiveness + output) is mad imho,

Ronaldo dominated two World Cups. And the great team argument doesn't cut it. What has Brazil done since Ronaldo? Neymar, who is a great player in his own right, does not get close to the contributions of Ronaldo. The dude scored 8 goals in a single World Cup. Last time that happened was Gerd Muller and the early 70s. Piling up goals against relegation fodder is not the only measure of quality.

What has Messi and C. Ronaldo done at that stage? Diego Forlan has made a bigger impact. Hell, even Luis Suarez embarassed England that one time.

 

[Spoony]

Somebody should fix that. So many in here talk about romanticizing but don't consider the goal inflation at all.

R9 scored 34 goals in 37 league matches for Barca, averaging 94 minutes per goal, in 96/97. Barca scored 2.42 goals per game that season.

Then he scored 25 in 32 for Inter in 97/98, averaging 114 minutes per goal. Inter scored 1.82 (!) goals per game that season and was among the top 5 attacking sides of the Serie A - that's how hard it was to score in Italy back then.

Cristiano scored 48 in 35 games in 14/15, averaging 64 minutes per goal but Real scored 3.1 goals per game back than.

So even only looking at scoring data, it isn't much of a difference if you consider the context. Penalties come on top of that. However, R9 obviously isn't solely remembered as a goal scorer - his dribbling and pace were on a completely different level than CR7's.

He was a far better player. Fake Ronaldo is a great player with fantastic stats but as you've pointed out there's not much difference in that regard. Proper Ronaldo was a majestic player and not just a goal scoring machine a kin to G Muller.

 

[troylocker]

I would pick 1996-1998 R9 over any version of CR7. He was unhuman in those seasons and the fear he installed in the defenders was unreal. They tried to kick him out of every game, but his unique combination of technique, faints, strenght and pace made him unplayable. A one man army, King of nutmegs and Humiliator of GKs who in my opinion is the best ever striker. For me those two seasons (Barca and 1st season at Inter) and Maradona in Napoli is the best I have ever seen (I can't judge players playing pre 1980 because I've only watched highlights of those). You could instantly see they were special.
CR7 has a GOAT club career, but his top level has never been up there.

 

[Peyroteo]

Cristiano's been at a consistently high level for so long that his peak years are just a blur in his career. If you ask people here what his best years were I'd guess most wouldn't even know.

 

[Camara]

Ronaldo dominated two World Cups. And the great team argument doesn't cut it. What has Brazil done since Ronaldo? Neymar, who is a great player in his own right, does not get close to the contributions of Ronaldo. The dude scored 8 goals in a single World Cup. Last time that happened was Gerd Muller and the early 70s. Piling up goals against relegation fodder is not the only measure of quality.

What has Messi and C. Ronaldo done at that stage? Diego Forlan has made a bigger impact. Hell, even Luis Suarez embarassed England that one time.

Relegation fodder like the Champions League? Ronaldo did... oh wait he never actually won it.
In his top season in the CL he scored... 6 goals!

I'm pretty sure Ronaldo really had to struggle in the national team with companions like Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Cafu and Roberto Carlos

 

[Zehner]

This thread is a real eye opener. For years I judged players based on their abilities on the ball, their movement, physique, strength, composure and stuff like this. Now I know that the only way to compare two footballers is to take a look at their trophy cabinet and then discuss the quality of their respective team mates. Bonus points for goal statistics, preferably without further context.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

I know people love to romanticize, and I see a lot of people say "Ronaldo the better peak, CR7 the better career". Not true. As great as Ronaldo was, his peak wasn't better than CR7's. Not even close. The only thing Ronaldo has over CR7 is his world cup victories. But if they switched nationalities would Portugal all of a sudden win 2 world cups? Of course not. Sorry folks, but any way you look at it, it's CR7 over Ronaldo and it isn't even close...

 

[markhughes]

I’d have to go with the Brazilian Ronaldo in terms of pure ability, he is the best I have seen outside of Maradona in my lifetime. Cristiano has had the best career though, both are wonderful players and top 10 GOATS without question.

 

[Peyroteo]

R9 is 8 years older than Cristiano and there are people here talking as if they played in massively different eras where football and defending have massively changed. 2 years after R9 won the World Cup Cristiano was playing the Euros final as one of the players of the tournament... R9 was 31 years old in 2008 when Cristiano won his first Ballon D’Or.

Teams like Atlético who are as defensive minded as teams in the 90s Serie A have regularly been the easiest teams for Cristiano to play against too. And while it's true that defences were rougher back then, it's not true at all that they were better.

 

[Morty_]

What exactly is "talent"?
I see its always used in context of dribbling and passing, but isn`t heading, shooting, positioning etc. also "talents"?

Brazilian Ronaldo was for sure a better dribbler than Cristiano, better finisher too, but Cristiano is incredible in the air, and in his peak, had a very dangerous long shot in him.
Peak Cristiano, one could say, is 11/12 season, im not so sure if that peak was any lower than Ronaldo`s.

 

[ryadmahrez]

This thread is a real eye opener. For years I judged players based on their abilities on the ball, their movement, physique, strength, composure and stuff like this. Now I know that the only way to compare two footballers is to take a look at their trophy cabinet and then discuss the quality of their respective team mates. Bonus points for goal statistics, preferably without further context.

Statistics are a way to help you judge a players dominance. Especially a player from the past. I dont know how it is with you guys, but back in the day we could only see the highlights of barca and inter where I live(holland). I was always eagerly anticipating them. His PSV games and world cup games i did watch live and I must say R9 made a big impression on me. Maybe a lot of it was marketing and the hype he had, but i was a big fan of his. Recently i looked back at his highlights during his world cups and it was maybe not that impressive. His best moment was probably his goal against Turkey. His other goals for example were mainly tap ins and 1vs 1’s. CR7 would be killed for only scoring those kind of goals. But back to the point, because R9 was a goalscorer, not really a poacher, but also surely not a playmaker kind of player. His goalscoring record is important to judge his dominance. And if look at it, you come to the conclusion, its not that impressive on club level(only one standout season at Barca). So you have to take that in to consideration when judging him.

You obviously rate R9 very highly, ive read you think of him as the best you ever saw. I think that there is showing you are maybe a bit biassed towards R9. Because if you were to really judge a player pure on ability, you wouldnt say R9 was the best you ever saw. That answer would be clearly Messi imo, granted you are talking about recent history.

R9 although not a great leaper, at his peak was the best player ever physically imo. To me CR7 and R9 are similar.But i would go for CR7, ability, peak and obviously career wise.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

I still remember when one was referred to as the "real Ronaldo". Nobody says that anymore. CR7 isn't some copy cat version of that other guy. He is his own man and arguably the greatest player to ever play the game. The only argument I will accept for a better player is Messi. But just because I will accept that as an argument, it doesn't mean it's true. CR7 is the GOAT...

 

[RedRonaldo]

This thread is a real eye opener. For years I judged players based on their abilities on the ball, their movement, physique, strength, composure and stuff like this. Now I know that the only way to compare two footballers is to take a look at their trophy cabinet and then discuss the quality of their respective team mates. Bonus points for goal statistics, preferably without further context.

If you judge their abilities over their career, Cristiano easily wins, as L.Ronaldo has many rather average years. But if you only count the top peak years and ignore the rest, its more or less equal, L.Ronaldo being more impressive with his dribbling, skills and runs, whereas Cristiano being more impressive with his off ball movement, long shots, freekicks, header etc. Their impact on pitch are more or less on par during their absolute peak years (actually Cristiano has far better numbers, but you may argue he is playing for better team), so its really up to your personal preference (ie if you hold dribbling and running etc in higher regards, you may prefer L.Ronaldo during his peak)

Peak years

Peak L.Ronaldo (96-98):

Dribbling 10/10
Finishing 10/10
Pace/acceleration 10/10
Physique/strength 10/10
composure 9.5/10
freekicks 7.5/10
long shots 8/10
header 8/10
passing 7.5/10
off ball movement 9/10

Peak Cristiano (07-12):

Dribbling 9.5/10
Finishing 10/10
Pace/acceleration 9.5/10
Physique/strength 10/10
composure 10/10
freekicks 9/10
long shots 9/10
header 9/10
passing 8/10
off ball movement 10/10

Non peak years

L.Ronaldo at his non-peak years (02-06)

Dribbling 9/10
Finishing 8.5/10
Pace/acceleration 9/10
Physique/strength 8.5/10
composure 8.5/10
freekicks 7.5/10
long shots 8/10
header 8/10
passing 7.5/10
off ball movement 8/10

Cristiano at his non-peak years (13-18):

Dribbling 8/10
Finishing 10/10
Pace/acceleration 9/10
Physique/strength 9/10
composure 10/10
freekicks 8/10
long shots 8.5/10
header 9.5/10
passing 7.5/10
off ball movement 10/10

Declining years

L.Ronaldo at his declining years (07-11)

Dribbling 8/10
Finishing 7.5/10
Pace/acceleration 7/10
Physique/strength 6/10
composure 7/10
freekicks 7/10
long shots 7.5/10
header 7/10
passing 7/10
off ball movement 6/10

Cristiano at his declining years (19-21+):

Dribbling 8/10
Finishing 10/10
Pace/acceleration 8.5/10
Physique/strength 8.5/10
composure 10/10
freekicks 7/10
long shots 8/10
header 9/10
passing 7.5/10
off ball movement 9/10

 

[Morty_]

At least do it in FM-style, 1-20 stats, please!

 

[Bebestation]

Seriously Ronaldo at his peak was great for 2 years but ultimately it was 2 years.

Ifs, buts, could have, would have but didnt.

Effin' Cristiano Ronaldo is ripping the world apart and the leagues apart entering the age of 36 years old.

Not a single year was he shit.

Not a single year except maybe his starting years and even then he was more skilful than he was the statistical type of player he is now.

Fat Ronaldo had off form due to injuries or at one point even physique.

How people value the 'art of dribbling' so highly in football is pretty crazy to me - to me in the modern game and the day we live in the mental health and mindset of a professional footballer is one of the most important thing I can ever recognise if not the most & no one beats Cristiano Ronaldo's.

 

[Camara]

This thread is a real eye opener. For years I judged players based on their abilities on the ball, their movement, physique, strength, composure and stuff like this. Now I know that the only way to compare two footballers is to take a look at their trophy cabinet and then discuss the quality of their respective team mates. Bonus points for goal statistics, preferably without further context.

You are trying to ignore context when someone was hailing Ronaldo's 8 goals in the WC as proof of his amazingness.
That's fantastic of course but we are comparing that with 2 players that do that level of thing (actually much better) competition after competition.

I thought ability wasn't everything but apparently dribbling well will make a player an instant outstanding player, so sorry and you can put back the Kerlon posters in your bedroom walls again

 

[Zlaatan]

This thread is a real eye opener. For years I judged players based on their abilities on the ball, their movement, physique, strength, composure and stuff like this. Now I know that the only way to compare two footballers is to take a look at their trophy cabinet and then discuss the quality of their respective team mates. Bonus points for goal statistics, preferably without further context.

To be honest you've known that for quite a while as you've obviously read the Messi vs Ronaldo thread.

 

[dinostar77]

Buffon was asked who was the greatest player he ever faced and Brazilian Ronaldo was his answer. Hes played against alot of top top players.

 

[Morty_]

Buffon was asked who was the greatest player he ever faced and Brazilian Ronaldo was his answer. Hes played against alot of top top players.

And other players will say something else, doesnt mean much.

 

[Bennz McCarthey17]

Lets be honest, it's the Messi lovers who are picking R9 over CR7. Football life is really really tough for Cristiano haters. Acting like Cristiano never bulldozed great defenders in his pomp , there is literally nothing he hasn't done in a football pitch that R9 ever did. And he has done it for way way way way way way longer.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Lets be honest, it's the Messi lovers who are picking R9 over CR7. Football life is really really tough for Cristiano haters. Acting like Cristiano never bulldozed great defenders in his pomp , there is literally nothing he hasn't done in a football pitch that R9 ever did. And he has done it for way way way way way way longer.

. Lets be honest. What a load of BS. Unbelievable how every talk about Messi or Cristiano must go in that way. "You don't like this or this on Messi? Oh, you are Cristiano fan then." Grow up. It is childish level of looking at things.

People who grew up (me included) and watched real Ronaldo, are not in any camp. Cristiano or Messi. We started to watch football when in football was more magic. And because of that for me at least it is and always will be;
Ronaldo (R9)
Maradona
Messi

And it is purely subjective. If we include pure stats then of course it is Messi or Ronaldo race for Goat.

 

[dinostar77]

Football has evolved over the eras, the GOATS are defined by the eras they played in. If you ever watch highlights of the Real Madrid team from the 50s with Puskas and Di Stefano its hard to believe its football your watching.

Football in the 1980s is a different beast to what it is nowadays. Heavier football, the no passback rule didnt exist. Tackles that were allowed back then would br automatic red cards now. The preparation, fitness, tactical work taking care of yourself was nothing like football today. And football in the 1950s was nothing like football in the 1970s or the 1990s.

Thats why the GOAT talk is just abit of fun. For me there is no overall GOAT. Theres an elite pantheon of players who dominated their respective eras. Even then the eras are defined by whether you watched football in europe or south america. You will have a bias depending on the football you grew up with. There are so many great players: Ricardo Zamora, Giuseppe Meazza, Stanley Matthews, Puskas, Di Stefano, Cryuff, Beckenbauer, Maradonna, Laudrup, Ronaldo (brasil), Zidane, Ronaldinho,CR7, Messi etc. More that i havent mentioned. All that matters is they put a smile on your face or made your jaw drop or made your heart beat alittle faster. If they could do that they they belong in the pantheon of the GOATS.

 

[Enigma_87]

Seriously Ronaldo at his peak was great for 2 years but ultimately it was 2 years.

Ifs, buts, could have, would have but didnt.

Effin' Cristiano Ronaldo is ripping the world apart and the leagues apart entering the age of 36 years old.

Not a single year was he shit.

Not a single year except maybe his starting years and even then he was more skilful than he was the statistical type of player he is now.

Fat Ronaldo had off form due to injuries or at one point even physique.

How people value the 'art of dribbling' so highly in football is pretty crazy to me - to me in the modern game and the day we live in the mental health and mindset of a professional footballer is one of the most important thing I can ever recognise if not the most & no one beats Cristiano Ronaldo's.

You need a bit of context mate.

Football in the 90's was never the same as it was when Messi and Cristiano were playing at their peak. There were no super teams and you couldn't see a team defending a CL, let alone winning 3/4 in a row. Real and Barca's bench could easily make it to the latter rounds of CL and be title contenders in their domestic leagues. The amount of the ball both Messi and Cristiano had at their disposal was much, much higher than what Fenomeno can muster, let alone the talent next to him.

I mean with Barca at their heyday you had Messi, Villa, Ibra, Henry, Xavi, Iniesta, Suarez, Neymar - you can't simply put 3 people on Messi and negate the whole side. You could with Ronaldo when he was playing at Inter. Take him out of the game and Inter will fire blanks.

It's not only "art of dribbling". The guy was true phenomenon. I don't think we even saw his true peak, due to the injuries, and yes injuries should be taken into consideration, but it was not "what if". To me if it wasn't for the injuries the GOAT status would have been cemented ages ago.

The "what if", doesn't even make his stature more romantic if you ask me - he was that good at tender age. Even "if" we didn't see his peak, what we saw at young age was already arguably better than what we have seen of even many of the GOAT contenders.

Lately I've been watching some old footage when he was at PSV:


a definition of one man attack. It's like you are at the playground and your attacking plan is based of giving the ball to the best player who should come up with something and win it for you.

If the opposition above doesn't impress then there is this:

17 years old against a stacked defence of Blind, Reiziger, De Boer, Rijkaard, Davids and on top of that VdS on goal. A team that won the CL that year and beat the mighty Milan that were the heavy favorites.

And I see someone mentioned the 98 WC final when the Brazil were favorites. They were favorites because of Ronaldo. That French side was stacked. It had one of the best defence ever for a national team and were scared shitless because of Fenomeno. They had separated sessions dedicated only for how to counter Fenomeno. They didn't really care about Bebeto or Rivaldo at the time.


There really isn't any question marks when it comes to assessing his game before the injuries came kicking in.

16 years old at Cruzeiro( much better league than it is now) - he ripped it apart - averaged goal a game.
17-18 - years old in a much better Dutch league than it is now - he did the same - averaged goal a game.
19-20 years old in Barca - ripped it apart - averaged goal a game.
21-23 years old in the best league in the world - 59 goals in 99 games against some of the best defences the game has seen and in an Inter side that just to put it in perspective in 98/99 he was out injured in the middle of the season - from late January to end of March. Fenomeno missed 8 games during that period - Inter failed to score in 5 of them.

He got back in April till the end of the season - 8 games - 8 goals for Fenomeno and Inter failed to score only in 1.

He was 2 times world player of the year, 1 Ballon D'or (lost another one by 1 vote), on course to become WC with Brazil, changed 4 completely different leagues that he run riot in every single one of them, and all that by the age of 22. By that age Cristiano was becoming one of the best players in the league but wasn't there yet. People really discount how young Fenomeno was when he was reaching those heights. He was teenager and was responsible to run attacks on his own against some of the hardest defensive lines in muddy pitches, kicked out of the game week after week. He didn't get the same protection or the same quality pitches Messi/Cristiano enjoy today, despite being only 9 years younger than Cristiano.

Apple and oranges and all that but at no point Fenomeno played in a super team week after week and he was still putting goal a game numbers on his own.

Put peak Ronaldo in Pep's Barca or Ronaldo's Real and can see him easily scoring 50-60 per year if he's fit, easily.

 

[Andycoleno9]

You need a bit of context mate.

Football in the 90's was never the same as it was when Messi and Cristiano were playing at their peak. There were no super teams and you couldn't see a team defending a CL, let alone winning 3/4 in a row. Real and Barca's bench could easily make it to the latter rounds of CL and be title contenders in their domestic leagues. The amount of the ball both Messi and Cristiano had at their disposal was much, much higher than what Fenomeno can muster, let alone the talent next to him.

I mean with Barca at their heyday you had Messi, Villa, Ibra, Henry, Xavi, Iniesta, Suarez, Neymar - you can't simply put 3 people on Messi and negate the whole side. You could with Ronaldo when he was playing at Inter. Take him out of the game and Inter will fire blanks.

It's not only "art of dribbling". The guy was true phenomenon. I don't think we even saw his true peak, due to the injuries, and yes injuries should be taken into consideration, but it was not "what if". To me if it wasn't for the injuries the GOAT status would have been cemented ages ago.

The "what if", doesn't even make his stature more romantic if you ask me - he was that good at tender age. Even "if" we didn't see his peak, what we saw at young age was already arguably better than what we have seen of even many of the GOAT contenders.

Lately I've been watching some old footage when he was at PSV:


a definition of one man attack. It's like you are at the playground and your attacking plan is based of giving the ball to the best player who should come up with something and win it for you.

If the opposition above doesn't impress then there is this:

17 years old against a stacked defence of Blind, Reiziger, De Boer, Rijkaard, Davids and on top of that VdS on goal. A team that won the CL that year and beat the mighty Milan that were the heavy favorites.

And I see someone mentioned the 98 WC final when the Brazil were favorites. They were favorites because of Ronaldo. That French side was stacked. It had one of the best defence ever for a national team and were scared shitless because of Fenomeno. They had separated sessions dedicated only for how to counter Fenomeno. They didn't really care about Bebeto or Rivaldo at the time.


There really isn't any question marks when it comes to assessing his game before the injuries came kicking in.

16 years old at Cruzeiro( much better league than it is now) - he ripped it apart - averaged goal a game.
17-18 - years old in a much better Dutch league than it is now - he did the same - averaged goal a game.
19-20 years old in Barca - ripped it apart - averaged goal a game.
21-23 years old in the best league in the world - 59 goals in 99 games against some of the best defences the game has seen and in an Inter side that just to put it in perspective in 98/99 he was out injured in the middle of the season - from late January to end of March. Fenomeno missed 8 games during that period - Inter failed to score in 5 of them.

He got back in April till the end of the season - 8 games - 8 goals for Fenomeno and Inter failed to score only in 1.

He was 2 times world player of the year, 1 Ballon D'or (lost another one by 1 vote), on course to become WC with Brazil, changed 4 completely different leagues that he run riot in every single one of them, and all that by the age of 22. By that age Cristiano was becoming one of the best players in the league but wasn't there yet. People really discount how young Fenomeno was when he was reaching those heights. He was teenager and was responsible to run attacks on his own against some of the hardest defensive lines in muddy pitches, kicked out of the game week after week. He didn't get the same protection or the same quality pitches Messi/Cristiano enjoy today, despite being only 9 years younger than Cristiano.

Apple and oranges and all that but at no point Fenomeno played in a super team week after week and he was still putting goal a game numbers on his own.

Put peak Ronaldo in Pep's Barca or Ronaldo's Real and can see him easily scoring 50-60 per year if he's fit, easily.

Well said.

 

[Spaghetti]

A lot of romanticism in posts suggesting Luis Ronaldo was better than Cristiano. I’m taking a wild guess that those people were not around when Luis Ronaldo was playing, or didn’t watch a lot of him. Maybe some YouTube videos.

Yes, he was a very good player. World class. But Peak Ronaldo was nowhere near the level of Peak Cristiano.

Even with goals - the one or two seasons where R9 was hitting big numbers, he doesn’t match Cristiano.

I feel like I’m doing a disservice to Luis R, but the OP has made an unfair comparison. And no, I’m not a Cristiano “fan boy”, just a realist. And Messi is (was) even better.

 

[Spaghetti]

You need a bit of context mate.

Football in the 90's was never the same as it was when Messi and Cristiano were playing at their peak. There were no super teams and you couldn't see a team defending a CL, let alone winning 3/4 in a row. Real and Barca's bench could easily make it to the latter rounds of CL and be title contenders in their domestic leagues. The amount of the ball both Messi and Cristiano had at their disposal was much, much higher than what Fenomeno can muster, let alone the talent next to him.

I mean with Barca at their heyday you had Messi, Villa, Ibra, Henry, Xavi, Iniesta, Suarez, Neymar - you can't simply put 3 people on Messi and negate the whole side. You could with Ronaldo when he was playing at Inter. Take him out of the game and Inter will fire blanks.

Got to disagree with that. Inter Milán had some great sides with Ronaldo in.

 

[Andycoleno9]

A lot of romanticism in posts suggesting Luis Ronaldo was better than Cristiano. I’m taking a wild guess that those people were not around when Luis Ronaldo was playing, or didn’t watch a lot of him. Maybe some YouTube videos.

Yes, he was a very good player. World class. But Peak Ronaldo was nowhere near the level of Peak Cristiano.

Even with goals - the one or two seasons where R9 was hitting big numbers, he doesn’t match Cristiano.

I feel like I’m doing a disservice to Luis R, but the OP has made an unfair comparison. And no, I’m not a Cristiano “fan boy”, just a realist. And Messi is (was) even better.

I watched both through their whole careers and regarding pure quality there is no contest there. Ronaldo was pure quality and pure talent. Cr7 is a "just" goal maschine.
Cr7 technique and especially dribble is hugely overrated. Not saying that he doesn't have it because he does of course. But not even close to Ronaldo, Maradona, Messi and many many other players.

And about peak; Ronaldo (R9) wins it by distance

 

[Enigma_87]

A lot of romanticism in posts suggesting Luis Ronaldo was better than Cristiano. I’m taking a wild guess that those people were not around when Luis Ronaldo was playing, or didn’t watch a lot of him. Maybe some YouTube videos.

Yes, he was a very good player. World class. But Peak Ronaldo was nowhere near the level of Peak Cristiano.

Even with goals - the one or two seasons where R9 was hitting big numbers, he doesn’t match Cristiano.

I feel like I’m doing a disservice to Luis R, but the OP has made an unfair comparison. And no, I’m not a Cristiano “fan boy”, just a realist. And Messi is (was) even better.

I've seen both of their peaks live. Fenomeno was "the player" when I was growing up. The buzz around him for the 98 WC was unreal.

Again it's very unfair comparison to show off today's Barca and Real sides to those in the 90's. Being the top dog in a super team is a lot easier in terms of hitting big numbers.

Got to disagree with that. Inter Milán had some great sides with Ronaldo in.

Like Taribo West, Colonnese, Ze Elias, Fresi, Winter, Samorano, Djorkaeff as a supporting cast?

I'm not sure if I can qualify that as a great team. When Ronaldo came at Inter they had probably only 1 world class player in Zanetti. Bergomi was on his last legs, maybe Simeone. The rest were absolutely meh and they were firing managers left right and center.

So no, they had far from "great sides".

 

[Spaghetti]

I watched both through their whole careers and regarding pure quality there is no contest there. Ronaldo was pure quality and pure talent. Cr7 is a "just" goal maschine.
Cr7 technique and especially dribble is hugely overrated. Not saying that he doesn't have it because he does of course. But not even close to Ronaldo, Maradona, Messi and many many other players.

And about peak; Ronaldo (R9) wins it by distance

Yeah, I would agree that Luis Ronaldo had more pure, natural talent, but Cristiano’s desire and hard work made him more effective on the pitch.

Calling Cristiano “just a goal machine” is forgetting about 12 years of his career. He has, of course, adapted his game as his career has gone on in order to prolong his career and play to his own strengths. Scoring 2 a game is probably more useful than dribbling anyway.

If Ronaldo had had 50% of Cristiano’s desire to be the best, then this he would be ahead of his namesake, in my opinion. But he didn’t, and he’s not.

Ronaldo’s (unfortunately short-lived) career was when I was watching as much football as possible and he was great to watch, but not quite the “give the ball to Ronaldo anywhere on the pitch and he will powerfully dribble to the other end and score all game long” kind of levels that the Caf would have you think. He missed chances, he went missing, he had bad games as all players do. And he disappeared almost as quickly as he arrived.

That’s my opinion, anyway. Each is entitled to theirs. Without differing opinions, there would be no need for a fans forum!

 

[Zehner]

Statistics are a way to help you judge a players dominance. Especially a player from the past. I dont know how it is with you guys, but back in the day we could only see the highlights of barca and inter where I live(holland). I was always eagerly anticipating them. His PSV games and world cup games i did watch live and I must say R9 made a big impression on me. Maybe a lot of it was marketing and the hype he had, but i was a big fan of his. Recently i looked back at his highlights during his world cups and it was maybe not that impressive. His best moment was probably his goal against Turkey. His other goals for example were mainly tap ins and 1vs 1’s. CR7 would be killed for only scoring those kind of goals. But back to the point, because R9 was a goalscorer, not really a poacher, but also surely not a playmaker kind of player. His goalscoring record is important to judge his dominance. And if look at it, you come to the conclusion, its not that impressive on club level(only one standout season at Barca). So you have to take that in to consideration when judging him.

You obviously rate R9 very highly, ive read you think of him as the best you ever saw. I think that there is showing you are maybe a bit biassed towards R9. Because if you were to really judge a player pure on ability, you wouldnt say R9 was the best you ever saw. That answer would be clearly Messi imo, granted you are talking about recent history.

R9 although not a great leaper, at his peak was the best player ever physically imo. To me CR7 and R9 are similar.But i would go for CR7, ability, peak and obviously career wise.

If you judge their abilities over their career, Cristiano easily wins, as L.Ronaldo has many rather average years. But if you only count the top peak years and ignore the rest, its more or less equal, L.Ronaldo being more impressive with his dribbling, skills and runs, whereas Cristiano being more impressive with his off ball movement, long shots, freekicks, header etc. Their impact on pitch are more or less on par during their absolute peak years (actually Cristiano has far better numbers, but you may argue he is playing for better team), so its really up to your personal preference (ie if you hold dribbling and running etc in higher regards, you may prefer L.Ronaldo during his peak)

Peak years

Peak L.Ronaldo (96-98):

Dribbling 10/10
Finishing 10/10
Pace/acceleration 10/10
Physique/strength 10/10
composure 9.5/10
freekicks 7.5/10
long shots 8/10
header 8/10
passing 7.5/10
off ball movement 9/10

Peak Cristiano (07-12):

Dribbling 9.5/10
Finishing 10/10
Pace/acceleration 9.5/10
Physique/strength 10/10
composure 10/10
freekicks 9/10
long shots 9/10
header 9/10
passing 8/10
off ball movement 10/10

Non peak years

L.Ronaldo at his non-peak years (02-06)

Dribbling 9/10
Finishing 8.5/10
Pace/acceleration 9/10
Physique/strength 8.5/10
composure 8.5/10
freekicks 7.5/10
long shots 8/10
header 8/10
passing 7.5/10
off ball movement 8/10

Cristiano at his non-peak years (13-18):

Dribbling 8/10
Finishing 10/10
Pace/acceleration 9/10
Physique/strength 9/10
composure 10/10
freekicks 8/10
long shots 8.5/10
header 9.5/10
passing 7.5/10
off ball movement 10/10

Declining years

L.Ronaldo at his declining years (07-11)

Dribbling 8/10
Finishing 7.5/10
Pace/acceleration 7/10
Physique/strength 6/10
composure 7/10
freekicks 7/10
long shots 7.5/10
header 7/10
passing 7/10
off ball movement 6/10

Cristiano at his declining years (19-21+):

Dribbling 8/10
Finishing 10/10
Pace/acceleration 8.5/10
Physique/strength 8.5/10
composure 10/10
freekicks 7/10
long shots 8/10
header 9/10
passing 7.5/10
off ball movement 9/10

See, I'm a stats guy myself. At least 50% of my job consists of working with statistics, KPIs, etc. But the statistics you guys are comparing are not comparable. You post and compare those numbers as if they were observed under laboratory conditions when in reality there are dozens of extremely influential factors which vary, at times immensely. League, time, era, team, competitions and so forth. We don't know how much Messi and Cristiano would score in R9's shoes and vice versa. Fact of the matter is that all three of them were the undisputed best goal scorers during their time. And both Messi and Cristiano recently had episodes in which their statistics looked suddenly didn't look immense anymore, usually when it things weren't really working out for their team. People already made out their decline multiple times but those who actually followe them closely knew this was bullshit since they were playing like they always did, only in lesser teams. And R9 never got to play in such well drilled machineries enjoyed by Messi and CR7 in Barcelona and Madrid.

And now consider, goals are only one aspect of attacking impact. You can't even compare that isolated statistic but an attacker's general quality is inredible hard to quantify and even the more complicated statistics (xG, goal impact, packing rate etc.) still only cover very specific areas of play. Present me a suitable way to quantify a football performance holistically and I'm all for statistics. but the way you're doing it, not even trying to put these numbers in context to stuff like goal inflation, you could as well just throw random numbers around.

So what's left is the eye test/a qualitative analysis. And that tells me that young R9 was an absolute freak who did stuff I saw from no other player - not even Messi. You get that feeling immediately when you watch him, may it be skill videos, complete games, match summaries or whatever. And this impression is backed by many of his fellow players, managers etc. When somebody like Mourinho, Zidane or R9's former physiotherapist speak of him, they express exactly what you're feeling watching footage of him in the 90s. This explosiveness, agility, strength and top speed - he's probably a legit GOAT contender in all of these aspects - paired with this unbelievable control, skills on the ball and finishing - he's also a GOAT contender in those categories - is unique. And he wasn't a Ben Arfa type of footballer who had great assets but never learned to utilize them. R9 was also a very intelligent player and more professional than man give him credit for. Read the article posted earlier, when the medical stuff explains that he at times had 10 hour routines of rehabilitation workouts during his recovery.

Personally I can't decide who's better among Messi, R9, Maradona and Pele. I feel R9 is the most talented but never fulfilled his potential to the same extent as the others did - but that doesn't mean he's not as good since his assets were ridiculously good. Maybe too good for a career without very serious injuries.

 

[Zehner]

You are trying to ignore context when someone was hailing Ronaldo's 8 goals in the WC as proof of his amazingness.
That's fantastic of course but we are comparing that with 2 players that do that level of thing (actually much better) competition after competition.

I thought ability wasn't everything but apparently dribbling well will make a player an instant outstanding player, so sorry and you can put back the Kerlon posters in your bedroom walls again

If I judged him by the 2002 world cup, I wouldn't assume he's better than Cristiano either. That was't the Ronaldo I'm talking about anymore, unfortunately.

To be honest you've known that for quite a while as you've obviously read the Messi vs Ronaldo thread.

Poetic license

 

[RedRonaldo]

You need a bit of context mate.

Football in the 90's was never the same as it was when Messi and Cristiano were playing at their peak. There were no super teams and you couldn't see a team defending a CL, let alone winning 3/4 in a row. Real and Barca's bench could easily make it to the latter rounds of CL and be title contenders in their domestic leagues. The amount of the ball both Messi and Cristiano had at their disposal was much, much higher than what Fenomeno can muster, let alone the talent next to him.

I mean with Barca at their heyday you had Messi, Villa, Ibra, Henry, Xavi, Iniesta, Suarez, Neymar - you can't simply put 3 people on Messi and negate the whole side. You could with Ronaldo when he was playing at Inter. Take him out of the game and Inter will fire blanks.

It's not only "art of dribbling". The guy was true phenomenon. I don't think we even saw his true peak, due to the injuries, and yes injuries should be taken into consideration, but it was not "what if". To me if it wasn't for the injuries the GOAT status would have been cemented ages ago.

The "what if", doesn't even make his stature more romantic if you ask me - he was that good at tender age. Even "if" we didn't see his peak, what we saw at young age was already arguably better than what we have seen of even many of the GOAT contenders.

Lately I've been watching some old footage when he was at PSV:


a definition of one man attack. It's like you are at the playground and your attacking plan is based of giving the ball to the best player who should come up with something and win it for you.

If the opposition above doesn't impress then there is this:

17 years old against a stacked defence of Blind, Reiziger, De Boer, Rijkaard, Davids and on top of that VdS on goal. A team that won the CL that year and beat the mighty Milan that were the heavy favorites.

And I see someone mentioned the 98 WC final when the Brazil were favorites. They were favorites because of Ronaldo. That French side was stacked. It had one of the best defence ever for a national team and were scared shitless because of Fenomeno. They had separated sessions dedicated only for how to counter Fenomeno. They didn't really care about Bebeto or Rivaldo at the time.


There really isn't any question marks when it comes to assessing his game before the injuries came kicking in.

16 years old at Cruzeiro( much better league than it is now) - he ripped it apart - averaged goal a game.
17-18 - years old in a much better Dutch league than it is now - he did the same - averaged goal a game.
19-20 years old in Barca - ripped it apart - averaged goal a game.
21-23 years old in the best league in the world - 59 goals in 99 games against some of the best defences the game has seen and in an Inter side that just to put it in perspective in 98/99 he was out injured in the middle of the season - from late January to end of March. Fenomeno missed 8 games during that period - Inter failed to score in 5 of them.

He got back in April till the end of the season - 8 games - 8 goals for Fenomeno and Inter failed to score only in 1.

He was 2 times world player of the year, 1 Ballon D'or (lost another one by 1 vote), on course to become WC with Brazil, changed 4 completely different leagues that he run riot in every single one of them, and all that by the age of 22. By that age Cristiano was becoming one of the best players in the league but wasn't there yet. People really discount how young Fenomeno was when he was reaching those heights. He was teenager and was responsible to run attacks on his own against some of the hardest defensive lines in muddy pitches, kicked out of the game week after week. He didn't get the same protection or the same quality pitches Messi/Cristiano enjoy today, despite being only 9 years younger than Cristiano.

Apple and oranges and all that but at no point Fenomeno played in a super team week after week and he was still putting goal a game numbers on his own.

Put peak Ronaldo in Pep's Barca or Ronaldo's Real and can see him easily scoring 50-60 per year if he's fit, easily.

Sure Fenomeno was great during his peak, but most people would only count his time during 96-98 in top league as truly his peak years. Before that he was playing in Brazil and Dutch league, where a lot of average players has done well and scored as many there. It’s like Haaland playing well in Austrian league and in Dortmund, it’s great record and very promising but people won’t regard this as his peak which is comparable to peak of other GOAT.

He didn’t play for super team during his peak (late 90’s), but he did played for a super team during 2000’s (Real Madrid Galacticos era) and for his country (Brazil 02 WC with 3R+Cafu/Carlos)

Portugal was never a super team yet Cristiano still scored 102+ goals (all time best in Europe) and won Euros for them.

I am not saying L.Ronaldo wasn’t as great as you stated, I was born watching football in that era too, during his early years in Brazil and PSV, he was similar to Mbappe in Monaco and Haaland in Salzburg/Dortmund, top top teenage player. And during 96-98 his dominance in football world is equivalent to Messi and Ronaldo during their peak decade, and probably best young player world have ever seen.

But for the rest of his career, I wouldn’t put him as one of the very best forward in the game. Players like Zidane, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Henry etc was better than him during those years, forwards like Ruud , Shevchenko etc were more prolific than him.

In other words, he has 2 years playing at GOAT level similar to dominance of Messi and Ronaldo (note I didn’t compare their numbers as Messi/Ronaldo has been far better but then they were playing in different teams under different context). He has around 4 years playing at level similar to Mbappe at Monaco or Haaland at Selzburg/Dortmund, then the rest he was either injured or playing at level behind the likes of Ronaldinho/Rivaldo/Henry/Ruud/Shevchenko etc.

 

[RedRonaldo]

See, I'm a stats guy myself. At least 50% of my job consists of working with statistics, KPIs, etc. But the statistics you guys are comparing are not comparable. You post and compare those numbers as if they were observed under laboratory conditions when in reality there are dozens of extremely influential factors which vary, at times immensely. League, time, era, team, competitions and so forth. We don't know how much Messi and Cristiano would score in R9's shoes and vice versa. Fact of the matter is that all three of them were the undisputed best goal scorers during their time. And both Messi and Cristiano recently had episodes in which their statistics looked suddenly didn't look immense anymore, usually when it things weren't really working out for their team. People already made out their decline multiple times but those who actually followe them closely knew this was bullshit since they were playing like they always did, only in lesser teams. And R9 never got to play in such well drilled machineries enjoyed by Messi and CR7 in Barcelona and Madrid.

And now consider, goals are only one aspect of attacking impact. You can't even compare that isolated statistic but an attacker's general quality is inredible hard to quantify and even the more complicated statistics (xG, goal impact, packing rate etc.) still only cover very specific areas of play. Present me a suitable way to quantify a football performance holistically and I'm all for statistics. but the way you're doing it, not even trying to put these numbers in context to stuff like goal inflation, you could as well just throw random numbers around.

So what's left is the eye test/a qualitative analysis. And that tells me that young R9 was an absolute freak who did stuff I saw from no other player - not even Messi. You get that feeling immediately when you watch him, may it be skill videos, complete games, match summaries or whatever. And this impression is backed by many of his fellow players, managers etc. When somebody like Mourinho, Zidane or R9's former physiotherapist speak of him, they express exactly what you're feeling watching footage of him in the 90s. This explosiveness, agility, strength and top speed - he's probably a legit GOAT contender in all of these aspects - paired with this unbelievable control, skills on the ball and finishing - he's also a GOAT contender in those categories - is unique. And he wasn't a Ben Arfa type of footballer who had great assets but never learned to utilize them. R9 was also a very intelligent player and more professional than man give him credit for. Read the article posted earlier, when the medical stuff explains that he at times had 10 hour routines of rehabilitation workouts during his recovery.

Personally I can't decide who's better among Messi, R9, Maradona and Pele. I feel R9 is the most talented but never fulfilled his potential to the same extent as the others did - but that doesn't mean he's not as good since his assets were ridiculously good. Maybe too good for a career without very serious injuries.

Strange I didn’t even present any stats in the post you’ve quoted me. I only give my honest review and rating of their abilities in different stage of their career. I just go along the line of your preference of comparing players abilities by rating different aspects of their game, which is just based on my opinion and from my naked eye.

 

[NasirTimothy]

I still remember when one was referred to as the "real Ronaldo". Nobody says that anymore. CR7 isn't some copy cat version of that other guy. He is his own man and arguably the greatest player to ever play the game. The only argument I will accept for a better player is Messi. But just because I will accept that as an argument, it doesn't mean it's true. CR7 is the GOAT...

Cristiano Ronaldo is an all time great player obviously, but there’s no way he’s the greatest player of all time. He hasn’t notched a single goal or assist in the knockout rounds of the World Cup and he’s played at four tournaments. That’s a pretty big hole in his CV