I don't think it had anything to do with a title race. We have weaknesses but our momentum carried us forward. Once that momentum is gone, though, it's hard to get it back.
Not in the Race?
- Thread starter Hughie77
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Solskjaer was able to bring in three defenders (Telles as well). Plus, while both keepers were in the squad when he arrived, it was his decision to give both bumper new contracts. So he had plenty of influence on the back five.
Anyhow, you can't always have a perfect team. City and Liverpool of previous years had weaknesses, lesser players, but they got over it.
Agreed, and they were all good signing.
It wasn't his decision what the contract was and Henderson wasn't ready and has probably been managed well.
You're right but not team gets away with it without a spine. Our GK, CBs and CDM are awful. Look how well that's worked out for Arsenal not addressing those areas.
People moaning about Maguire are basically saying you need to replace 4 players because improving just Maguire does nothing for us.
Lindelof is often targeted because he is one of the weakest CBs.
Fred is not a CDM and has the worst shot of any pro footballer.
DDG is the most passive keeper in the league and is no longer protected by an ultra defensive manager or his shot stopping.
Edit - and those two teams didn't 'get over it's they spent millions on their spine.
Liverpool spent big on a goalkeeper and a centerhalf and improved massively even though Van Dijk was never partnered with a top class centerhalf. City made a big leap defensively by spending big on Dias.
We made the same sort of big move, but spending it on Maguire might not have been the best idea. Certainly when you compare him to the expensive CBs City and Liverpool got. We also handicapped ourselves with the De Gea contract. There are consequences to expensive errors.
Let's ignore the fact Liverpool bought a TOP CDM too shall we?
City made a big leap by spending on everyone, they've spent a fortune on the whole back 6.
Maguire being an expensive error should have no bearing on what we do going forward. We don't recoup that money if we sell him.
I don't need to ignore anything as I just don't believe you must have great players in every position - or at least in every spine position - in order to be a terrific team. City spent a lot on the backline, but it was that one big signing that made a huge difference. We also made that one big signing, just not as good.
As of course the Maguire deal infuences future moves. It's the money that is now gone, it's the weaknesses he has we need to account for and compensate.
If you don't spend well, you'll pay for it on the field for a while. Just like when We bought Djemba Djemba, Kleberson, Miller, Bellion, etc, in a short space of time.
It wasn't that one signing it was the fact that they both already had top players to put them with
why are you acting like Liverpool and City don't have a ridiculously strong spine. Then there is ours.You put Allison, Gomez and Fabinho next to Maguire and we can win the league.
You put Ederson, Stones and Rodri next to Maguire and we can win the league.
That season was mental and well ingrained, the 4-4 At home to Everton strangely enough, I thought lost it for us, Evra hit the post with a header to make it 5-2 , then we conceded 2.
We just need to try and keep winning that's all we can do. It's going to be tough.
They are on pace for 86 points at the ppg (2.27) they have achieved so far this season.
The last three Premier League winners have achieved 99, 98 and 100 points. You have to go back to 2015/16 for the last time any team failed to break the 90 point barrier - Leicester won the league that year.
There was a chance this year, with City and Liverpool well off their usual pace, for a different side to step up and grab the title. Doesn't look like it is going to happen, sadly. Might be a while before anyone gets the chance again.
You cant see a defense as a whole and they point out a single player. I asked as a unit would you swap? Is ridiculous to think anyone would. We clearly have better players than them, we are just underperforming.
So you say because we are a more attack driven team than them then is justifiable that we conceed more goals? that doesnt make sense to me. The top teams always have a better attacking and defensive record than the rest. Or do you see that pattern repeated amongst other top teams in other leagues? does Bayern, Juve, Madrid, PSG, etc have an average defensive record because they play more offensive football than the rest of the league?
If anything a better attack helps your defense, the other team is more focused on defending than attacking.
There was a chance for a team that is good enough to get 86pts plus. We got 66 last season.
We arent there yet but the signs are positive and we are improving.
I think points deltas are more indicative than trying to find some meaning from absolute points totals this year. IMO just because teams won't hit the PPG they hit last season doesn't mean this year was easier in any way. Okay maybe a bit of an added advantage for teams not in Europe like Everton and WHU but they are kind of irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
Couple of opinions that might be controversial. I think City's points totals are a good benchmark for us because they've been consistently up there for the past decade or so. So if we do as well as City points totals wise, I think we'll be alright.
Currently, we're sitting 8 points below City - assuming they win their game in hand. At the end of the past few seasons we were:
2014-16: 9 points off.
2015-16: 0 points off. (The Leicester year)
2016-17: 9 points off (Pep's first year in charge)
2017-18: 19 points off.
2018-19: 32 points off.
2019-20: 15 points off.
They've clearly been transformed and have been way better than us since Pep came in. I think 2018-19 maybe is a one off because Jose got sacked, bad start etc. so I won't read too much into that.
This season anything >10 points off of City's pace is grounds for sacking Ole and replacing him with someone better. Ideally we should be within touching distance (<6 pts) come end of the season to prove that we've made progress under Ole.
Any attacking team without a top defence or more importantly; spine, will leak goals.
I didn't single out a player, I gave you our spine.
See Argentina for a team with a WC attack and a poor defense, didn't help them much did it? So your last point is nonsense.
We are second because of our attack, not our defence(or spine).
Does anybody else hope the pressure being off might help this team. They look a year short of a challenge and are soon 8pts behind a city that most have given the title to while also having a bit of breathing space to 4th.
We have 45 pts to play for but would unfortunately need 38 to even be in contention. Can't see it happening but we finished last season with a decent run
We have 45 pts to play for but would unfortunately need 38 to even be in contention. Can't see it happening but we finished last season with a decent run
So you are taking one example with Argentina and taking as if its a given rule? I think its clear the better players you have the best all the units can play. A better defense helps you have a better attack, a better midfield helps you have a better defense and attack, and a better attack helps you have a better defense. I don't see how any unit would be affected by having best players in other units.
I still think we have more talent that what we are currently playing at our defense. Most of those players would walk on any team. Still we are below the average defense in the league. At least we should be around the top 6 defenses in the league.
So let me ask another question, do you think with the talent we have in defense are we on par on where we should be? you think its on balance to allow 30 goals in 23 games with the talent we have on our defense? or are we underperforming and should be doing better?
Oles jobs to manage situations. If the target imagined at the start of the season was top four? At any stage would we be 'in the race'? No. But Ole don't have to hold everyones hand nor explain everything to everyone because you need to keep secrets. Sometimes you need to obfuscate. So people always picking up on this or that....no one thought we'd challenge for the league this season. No one. What people said after a point in time is we could - based on how we were going. Unless City stumble majorly we're not challenging. We had an opportunity to challenge but will learn from these things. HOPEFULLY. If the players have any sense, they will. We've lost so many points - too many in the final seconds of games. We've achieved a great away record but went behind in the majority.
Not getting Sancho was a blow. Offensively, we've not reached our potential this season. Bruno and Cavani have covered the cracks but Martial and Greenwood can produce so much more and we know that. Hopefully we can win a trophy this season because we have improved and if Bailly had been fit all season, who knows where we'd be. We've given City the confidence they needed to win the league. Let's focus on securing champions league place and trying to win a trophy. But you need luck all the same. People dismiss the market often but it can really buy momentum, and optimism going in the season. We've dropped some bad bad points but this is an improving squad. The defenders NEED to solidify at key times. When we got the second against Everton, what happens? They almost scored before half time.
We should remain solid for as long as possible because the games is won but we conceded 2 in quick succession at home and that's not a team challenging for the league but a team that still needs to learn from it's mistakes. We're capable but we should just focus on ourselves and look to go on a run. Let's see how high we can finish. We've not earnt the right yet...to say we can challenge. Our home form fools no one. What Ole tells the players and what he tells the media etc are two different things. We heard him yell as Rashford in the arsenal game to run at his man......he can't defend. But we would blame Ole for more dropped points. People even blamed Ole last game for making a sub.....that yeah led to a goal but that's absurd. People need to lay off the drink and here's a suggestion.
Try to remember how BAD and awful we've been at times in the last 7-8 years and the improvement is there. No question. At home via Everton, we were more aggressive and made more runs and created opportunities and this is something we've not done for much of the season at home. The players will learn. When you play for the league, once you've got the points.....put them in a box marked fragile and post them to yourself...carefully. We gave two points away very cheaply in search of winning a game we'd already won.
Not getting Sancho was a blow. Offensively, we've not reached our potential this season. Bruno and Cavani have covered the cracks but Martial and Greenwood can produce so much more and we know that. Hopefully we can win a trophy this season because we have improved and if Bailly had been fit all season, who knows where we'd be. We've given City the confidence they needed to win the league. Let's focus on securing champions league place and trying to win a trophy. But you need luck all the same. People dismiss the market often but it can really buy momentum, and optimism going in the season. We've dropped some bad bad points but this is an improving squad. The defenders NEED to solidify at key times. When we got the second against Everton, what happens? They almost scored before half time.
We should remain solid for as long as possible because the games is won but we conceded 2 in quick succession at home and that's not a team challenging for the league but a team that still needs to learn from it's mistakes. We're capable but we should just focus on ourselves and look to go on a run. Let's see how high we can finish. We've not earnt the right yet...to say we can challenge. Our home form fools no one. What Ole tells the players and what he tells the media etc are two different things. We heard him yell as Rashford in the arsenal game to run at his man......he can't defend. But we would blame Ole for more dropped points. People even blamed Ole last game for making a sub.....that yeah led to a goal but that's absurd. People need to lay off the drink and here's a suggestion.
Try to remember how BAD and awful we've been at times in the last 7-8 years and the improvement is there. No question. At home via Everton, we were more aggressive and made more runs and created opportunities and this is something we've not done for much of the season at home. The players will learn. When you play for the league, once you've got the points.....put them in a box marked fragile and post them to yourself...carefully. We gave two points away very cheaply in search of winning a game we'd already won.
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I have much the same attitude as i did a month ago to be honest. Were in a title race but it would probably be our weakest title winning team ever and would require both City and Liverpool to feck up fairly severely.
Whilst it seems we are out of it, the seasons swings some roundabouts - in the last 2 weeks, we have had some things just not go right, the refs at Sheff Utd, some basic finishing at Arsenal and unbelievable scenes at Everton (that picture of DDG fk at past 94mins still haunts me). In that same time, City had a lucky call vs Aston Villa, snuck over the line vs Brighton and were gifted 2 goals by one of the best keepers going. Yes, it is too idealistic to say everything goes your way, but if a couple of those went right i.e. we got a point vs Sheff Utd and held on vs Everton whilst City dropped points in one of those three we would be talking about 3 points rather than 8 with an easier next couple of games than them.
The margins in football are so tight and if it swings the other way, before you know it we could be in touching distance.
Regarding our defence, I agree it was atrocious against Everton, that was a game to close out from the start of the second half, but I feel sometimes as sports fans we forget that other teams have also come to play and are professionals. They came out with some intensity at the start of the second half and yes we buckled, but that first goal was again such slight margins - in the build up if the ref lets Fred keep the ball (when he was fouled) rather than the other way it never happens, then De Gea actually shows conviction on the cross and it dwindles away. I watched City vs Villa and I can tell you Villa made a lot more clear chances than Everton got near to doing, but they didn't make it count, Everton did. A positive take on the Everton game was that after we buckled to 2-2, we did all of the running and a combination of howlers in the final minute cost us.
The defence conceded a lot less last year and even this year there have been some good signs. There is a chance the lack of consistency means we fall into the midst of a top 4 battle, but I would say there is as much chance that we go in a mini run, and come the game against City be in a position that a win puts us right on their tails.
Whilst we are no doubt frustrated, the Everton game was really depressing, and I hate the idea that we played so well, scored some nice goals, controlled the game but could not get 3 points part of me thinks that we as fans are falling to the media's attempts to discredit Ole and continue to make us look weak and a failure. For those that want to see progress, we played Liverpool twice, all the talk after the first one was we should have won, then we went away and beat them in the second.
I for one will be cheering for Spurs this weekend, and hope that City drop points and we turn it on against WBA to maybe, just maybe start a shift in the momentum.
Having watched Utd game in game out all throughout the last few years, dreading games but watching them as you never know - to now be at a place where it looks like there is some team spirit, the manager does not stink the place out and ultimately look forward to Utd games can only be a good sign.
The margins in football are so tight and if it swings the other way, before you know it we could be in touching distance.
Regarding our defence, I agree it was atrocious against Everton, that was a game to close out from the start of the second half, but I feel sometimes as sports fans we forget that other teams have also come to play and are professionals. They came out with some intensity at the start of the second half and yes we buckled, but that first goal was again such slight margins - in the build up if the ref lets Fred keep the ball (when he was fouled) rather than the other way it never happens, then De Gea actually shows conviction on the cross and it dwindles away. I watched City vs Villa and I can tell you Villa made a lot more clear chances than Everton got near to doing, but they didn't make it count, Everton did. A positive take on the Everton game was that after we buckled to 2-2, we did all of the running and a combination of howlers in the final minute cost us.
The defence conceded a lot less last year and even this year there have been some good signs. There is a chance the lack of consistency means we fall into the midst of a top 4 battle, but I would say there is as much chance that we go in a mini run, and come the game against City be in a position that a win puts us right on their tails.
Whilst we are no doubt frustrated, the Everton game was really depressing, and I hate the idea that we played so well, scored some nice goals, controlled the game but could not get 3 points part of me thinks that we as fans are falling to the media's attempts to discredit Ole and continue to make us look weak and a failure. For those that want to see progress, we played Liverpool twice, all the talk after the first one was we should have won, then we went away and beat them in the second.
I for one will be cheering for Spurs this weekend, and hope that City drop points and we turn it on against WBA to maybe, just maybe start a shift in the momentum.
Having watched Utd game in game out all throughout the last few years, dreading games but watching them as you never know - to now be at a place where it looks like there is some team spirit, the manager does not stink the place out and ultimately look forward to Utd games can only be a good sign.
Was good while it lasted but best to now just switch our focus to beating Leicester for second place
I wouldn't give up just yet. I accept we are underdogs and also not ready but these are strange times with a lot of different variables than usual.
I would agree with this. Nobody is stopping city's juggernaut.
Our race right now is for 2nd place!
2nd place is the real trophy anyway
Goodnight sweet prince
There is no title race this year.
City are going to breeze their way to the title. Aguero and KDB just coming back too.
Still, second place would be progress and as much or more than I expected from this season so whatever.
Still, second place would be progress and as much or more than I expected from this season so whatever.
We will need to beat Chelsea for 2nd place....
It's a process.
Would have been miraculous to go from last year's performance to champions bearing in mind we didn't strengthen the team in the summer.
The squad, maybe, you can argue, but definitely not the team.
Would have been miraculous to go from last year's performance to champions bearing in mind we didn't strengthen the team in the summer.
The squad, maybe, you can argue, but definitely not the team.
It's over. Not a hope we're pulling back 8 points on City. I'm fine with 2nd this season but we'd want to be mounting a serious challenge next season of it's time for a change.
On what planet would anybody with any reasonable intellect accept that 'equation' (most of which is out of the hands of the actual club itself) as the metric in which to measure progress... We can all see the progress.... it's in plain sight and very obvious.
Second place would be an improvement on last year and that’s good in my book , it’s been horrible since Fergie retired, improvement has been non existent until Ole took charge, we are still far off, way too inconsistent but I see hope for the future for the first time in what feels like an age
They have keepers throwing them in for them now, we need to ride it out and beat them at the Etihad to stand a chance, keep the pressure up when the games pile up on them.
Well know in about 2 weeks
Well know in about 2 weeks
If we finish 20+points behind city come the end of the season will we have actually made any progress under ole and closed the gap as was the target this season?
We’ve clawed back bigger deficits but our team isn’t quite ready. I think we should remember this City team are exceptional and our aim should just be to win as many games as we can. I think we all know they won’t capitulate but if we run them close and get a quality centre back in the summer then we might just do it again next season.,
Will feel more worried about them if they beat us at Stamford Bridge in a couple of weeks
If City is once again returning to the heights of 100 points a season, it would require something special to get to that level.
Exactly. Just because some teams can't maintain their form we shouldn't be complacent and be happy with second. Next year there can be some more good managers in the more talented teams, can think of Hassenhuttl or Rose moving to Spurs and Tuchel might get his things together next season too while Rodgers could be backed in the transfer market and it can be tough fight for top 4 again.
Man City are well drilled team with a proper system, which can lose some points but thanks to consistency such system brings it will generate the most points more often than not. We are, on the other hand, far behind (from the very top) because simply put our "system" is very much dependable on individuals which have more days off than perform. Ole is a great manager and in a style way closer to Fergie but the best football addresses off the ball play much more than we do and we have to address the weakness by our management as soon as possible or we just never catch up with the best.
In general there is three ways to do it:
- either address this issue by hiring a specialist for this or simply the team to focus on this the most
- or buy world class players, manage their ego well, hope their form stays by world-class I mean players who are consistently on top of their game which can bring results, similarly to what happened in Zidane's Real
- or hire a more progressive manager who knows how to play progressive football
- extra option is to wait for Guardiola to leave Mancity but then with the money they have they might go for some talented manager again and dominate football for coming years + the influx of progressive manager in the EPL generally makes it more and more challenging every year, compared to the days when Big sams, Arrys, Bruceys, Pardiolas managed the majority of the teams in the league, so we should think about it.
This is not an anti-Ole post but kind of a reality check post from my view.
Now you understand why it was never missed opportunity. You thought Man City’s form is like 15/16 Leicester, not even closed. You are forgetting the quality they have brought in into their squad with tons of money.
Somewhat deafitist of you, lots of football to be played yet, bear in mind citys next four are everton away, arsenal away west ham home and then the derby.
Let's see where we are after the derby before we start conceding the title.
Like you said, we are not ready, CB next to Harry is a big problem, certainly, but that alone wouldn't guarantee results, we would need a goalscorer of the level of Kane, Haaland too. Preferably Sancho-like RW, or Grealish type of creator ( when Pogba leaves) to play through the middle or from the LW when Rashford is out of form.
I think we need two of these, with CB being absolute priority, then we can challenge depends still on form of other teams though.
All we can do is try to keep winning , 3 pts 3pts no matter how just get them, it's going to be tough because we've dropped silly points this season, we all know where. Consolidate 2nd at least would be my agenda. Then just see how it pans out in April and May.