Wait I thought Butt was running the youth setup for us (and doing a stellar job at it AFAIK). When did he become "head of first team development"? Or is that fancy words for saying he runs the youth academy?
Manchester United name John Murtough as Football Director and Darren Fletcher as Technical Director
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
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How does that answer the question, the DoF judges the head coach and the CEO judges the DoF. You don't think that a head coach can do a generally poor work or be at end of a cycle while the DoF hasn't done anything wrong? Or do you think that whenever a head coach isn't performing everyone should be sacked from the CEO to the gardeners?
And it's fine if you don't wan't a DoF but then why would you call that role DoF? Which was the point of the conversation you jumped into.
22nd July 2019 according to a quick google search. He is in charge of trying to figure out how to get talented young players from the youth system into the first team, working out what skills and experience they need to make the jump. Nick Cox was promoted to take charge of the academy.
https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...-butt-nick-cox-in-man-utd-academy-restructure
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Ah okay - thanks. I think I've seen interviews around how that process works at United and Butt + Ole seem to have a good relationship there. One of the few areas where we seem to be better than other clubs management wise.
No, Carrick and McKenna are the ones doing the training sessions. How does that relate to them being the ones who come up with tactics?You for real? You're claiming Phelan is the main coach in training?
Well I don't share your pessimism.
A- Having more football people at board level is a good thing. I mean even Fletcher is more knowledgeable then Judge and Woodward
B- We had finally moved to a structure that better reflects modern time. Once certain roles are created its difficult to eliminate
C- More roles mean more space for accountability. In the past the manager could keep buying duds on the club's behalf and yet still keep his job if he does well on the pitch. Now there's a person whose responsible for transfers and another person whose responsible of tactics
D- If a new manager comes in then he would know that is a structure in place and he'll have to adhere to it. No more carte blanche for managers to bring their friends and mates
However the fact that we went for people on the inside who also happen to be the least experienced of the bunch is a matter of concern. In my opinion the reason to that lie in the details. For example its been stated that Ole will retain a veto on transfers and that Judge is still head of transfer negotiations. That's pretty much undermine the DOF and limits its efficiency. We also brought a technical director that also take chunks of responsibility away from the DOF as well. Which means that Murtough's and Fletcher's role are very small indeed. Under such circumstances its no surprise that the likes of Rangnick, Mitchell and Campos had stirred away from the job. You don't hire Gordon Ramsay as chef only to limit him to the chip fryer.
Sometimes. Remember "rush goalie" when a keeper could sometimes play in the outfield? Well, Fletcher is now a "rush roach"
What? Murtough has been involved in professional football for over 2 decades.
Also, Judge now reports to him. So Murtough is in charge of negotiations. The new technical director also reports to him. Delegation is good. His role is not small.
This is Murtough first job as DOF and his CV is hardly spectacular. Also Judge is now Director of Football Negotiations, whatever that means. I've been around for enough time to know that job designations and what happens in real life might differ. The fact that Judge is still around despite us having a DOF doesn't really inspire me.
sounds like he has exactly the same job but with armbands and a rubber ring now
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Jump into the conversation? Thanks for that, time to jump back out I think.
Riggs would bring a far different approach to transfer negotiations. Raiola might shit his pants.
Yeah jumped into the conversation, it wasn't meant negatively, was I supposed to say it differently? I did the exact same thing, Regulus was responding to Ti Vu about the supposed role of a DoF.
The positive with respect to Judge is that he no longer reports to his school chum Woodward, so his position is no longer protected.
The bad news is that his new boss reports to his school chum. If Judge is the telling type, we are in trouble.
This is such a breath of fresh air. An actual structure has been put in place, finally. This is a big step in my hopes that, regardless whether Ole does enough over the rest of this and next season, if he does eventually go then there will be no more 'Project Restart' and we have a team (non playing) dedicated on giving a long term approach, in terms of recruitment on and off field, sticking to a philosophy of how we want to play.
Mixing the money men in with people who actual have experiences playing for United who get the culture that is needed has to be a step in the righ direction.
Mixing the money men in with people who actual have experiences playing for United who get the culture that is needed has to be a step in the righ direction.
I agree with you. To some people they do not understand that there was life before United. Not only did Queiroz manage the National team he also won the Cup with SCP and he is a graduate of Lisbon University. He wrote the Q Report for Soccer USA. He may be a bad manager but he is no mug when it comes to coaching.
would be happy with Overmars too but can but hope Edwin would want to start slightly down the pecking order at a bigger club...
And work under such chaotic situation under Woodward? He would be mad to do so. VDS is at the top at a decent size club.
Because he is still trying to progress the club. He knows the sooner we get the structure in place, the better. But equally, there's a reason he hasn't gone for a big heavyweight DoF. Because he knows the pressure he would be under if he did that. Plus it would finally remove the smokescreen around transfers because there would be no excuses. We'd have a guy used to overseeing big transfers and getting deals done and suddenly this guy would not be achieving that due to the money men at Old Trafford. And sure he could wait to put the DoF after the window and deflect blame but even for Ed that would be transparent. And he simply wants to start making the changes now.
he actually started as a marketing exec at Ajax, then became chief exec: surely the latter of those gives him some experience. but I'd take overmars too
well, yes, there is that! maybe that's why it's taken about 50 years to get anyone in!
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Have a listen to Ole at yesterday's press conference. It's repackaging, a fella at the club for 7 years given a new title. Judge still involved in transfers and Woody oversees it all.
That Lingard kid looks good. When he grows he could be something
Murtough reports to Woodward though.
He couldpossibly mean that we don’t pick up bargains the way one or two others have but pay way over the odds. It ignores the fact that being ‘Utd’ the price goes up to extortionate levels but if we look to promote from within, then they’re not Utd ‘quality’. I think our recruiting is sound personally. But if we don’t buy world class players...it’s not good enough
I suppose if you don't understand the workings of an organization, you can only view it from the outside. In that case, the appointment of a shiny named bauble is what you want. I prefer to think this is a rational decision based on a thorough understanding of the dynamics of the club, top to bottom. Am optimistic.
Both great shows!I went with the "Trailer Park Boys" reference over "The Office". I am Canadian after all
Who is Leicester City's DOF or transfer guy.
I'd love someone as good as that.
I'd love someone as good as that.
A sensible post.
But if he’s not doing his job properly I don’t think it’s in Murtoughs best interest to let him off the hook
I make an opinion not a judgement there. Here is the longer version of my initial post you quoted.
What the Tweet said (perhaps via briefing), this Football Role role is not the same as DOFs at other clubs.
As the 2 branches don't have authority over each other, it means the chain of command would connected at Ed. So in the mean time, our Football Director can't just go out planning and make decision for the worse or the better that affects first team without report to Ed first and notifying the manager (his equal). That's what I meant by proxy.
The above points are within the realm of the info we know as is. Who knows what lies in the future. If we do, we can get rich enough to buy the club out ourselves, can't we!
Let be real to ourselves. We have no power whatsoever to input what this club run or Ed would be out of the door long ago. We can only hope For the best, but let people are free to react.
I respect your opinion in not wanting a Dof to undermining the manager, then I respect other opinion that us trying to hipster our structure may just continue the frustration under Woodward. We're not doing the SAF way now evidently this change, but also doesn't do thing like other clubs either.
Time will tell. Nothing wrong with having different opinion. Feel free to moan about the moaning.
An observation about people moaning for the sake of it, is an observation.Feel free to moan about the moaning.
Time to go
I’m not Woodward head and mind. To know 100% exactly the reasons of those appointment.
But logical. If i am the owner of the club. Before those appointments. If Woodward was responsible and had the last decisions of hiring and sacking the head coach. Not Moyes one which was chosen by Sir Alex.
If the Ceo is the one who evaluate the head coach. Don’t know nothing about football and the game. Then he is not qualified to evaluate the head coach. Same as a manager at a restaurant. If that manager don’t know anything about cooking. Then he is not qualified to evaluate the chef cook of the restaurant.
In this Woodward is not a football man. Don’t know how to set price on players and rating players?Logical he hire and appointed this football director. To evaluate the head coach and others clubs to contact him first. Now, Woodward trust this guy and is Woodward right hand. FD evaluate head coach decisions making like the tactical. Like line up and every decision he is making. Because you can’t sack someone without reasons. Then the reasons are the decisions the head coach is making. End up with a performance or a meal like cook chef are serving the fans and peoples at a restaurant.
And when a head coach/chef cook want a new player/a new cook assistant. Then he go to FD and manager to ask for more players and cook assistant. Hi my friend. I need new cook assistant. I need a new player. Then they discuss together. With the advice and recommendation from the scout and recruit department. But like i said. To evaluate the head coach and chef cook. You get to know the game and job equal or better. Then it’s he qualified to find players too?Football director who knows everything about the game. Evaluate the master chef at a restaurant. You get to be so qualified and good enough to find quality players. But of course the FD has only two eyes. Like us. And the world is big. Reasons he hired peoples to scout everywhere.
And about the last words on new players. Who work directly to the players and cook assistant?Who directly make the tactic, line up and game plan. Who is leading the dressing room. Knows and is closer to the players more then FD?Its not logical and naturally the head coach has the last decision on new players?If i am the owner i would definitely give the last decision to the head coach and chef cook. As a owner i hire and appoint the manager and DOF. To evaluate the head coach and contact with others. Like grocery deliver and others related areas. The head coach shall 100% focus on the pitch and the chef cook focus 100% on cooking and the kitchen. Outside the pitch and grass and kitchen. Outside the pitch and kitchen. The Dof and restaurant manager will take of it.
+ Keep it simple.
+ Lay down your ego and for the best of the fans and club. Same direction
+ Agreement of the roles and jobs in the first place. To avoid later arguing. Like decision and who is responsible
In the end. In theory everything is perfect and harmony. But in practice it is not. With ingredients of different ego, power and others things involving. Not a chance it will turn out to be harmony. The practical side. Not only with. football But life, society and world in general.
Again. I’m not 100% about the reasons. Just viewing it from the outside. Exactly why. You get to ask and interview mr.Woodward. So i can be wrong with mine reasons. But this is how personally will run my business if i am the owner of a club or restaurant. And peoples are doing it in different ways. So just mine personally thoughts, views and opinions. There are different and many paths to the top of the mountain
But logical. If i am the owner of the club. Before those appointments. If Woodward was responsible and had the last decisions of hiring and sacking the head coach. Not Moyes one which was chosen by Sir Alex.
If the Ceo is the one who evaluate the head coach. Don’t know nothing about football and the game. Then he is not qualified to evaluate the head coach. Same as a manager at a restaurant. If that manager don’t know anything about cooking. Then he is not qualified to evaluate the chef cook of the restaurant.
In this Woodward is not a football man. Don’t know how to set price on players and rating players?Logical he hire and appointed this football director. To evaluate the head coach and others clubs to contact him first. Now, Woodward trust this guy and is Woodward right hand. FD evaluate head coach decisions making like the tactical. Like line up and every decision he is making. Because you can’t sack someone without reasons. Then the reasons are the decisions the head coach is making. End up with a performance or a meal like cook chef are serving the fans and peoples at a restaurant.
And when a head coach/chef cook want a new player/a new cook assistant. Then he go to FD and manager to ask for more players and cook assistant. Hi my friend. I need new cook assistant. I need a new player. Then they discuss together. With the advice and recommendation from the scout and recruit department. But like i said. To evaluate the head coach and chef cook. You get to know the game and job equal or better. Then it’s he qualified to find players too?Football director who knows everything about the game. Evaluate the master chef at a restaurant. You get to be so qualified and good enough to find quality players. But of course the FD has only two eyes. Like us. And the world is big. Reasons he hired peoples to scout everywhere.
And about the last words on new players. Who work directly to the players and cook assistant?Who directly make the tactic, line up and game plan. Who is leading the dressing room. Knows and is closer to the players more then FD?Its not logical and naturally the head coach has the last decision on new players?If i am the owner i would definitely give the last decision to the head coach and chef cook. As a owner i hire and appoint the manager and DOF. To evaluate the head coach and contact with others. Like grocery deliver and others related areas. The head coach shall 100% focus on the pitch and the chef cook focus 100% on cooking and the kitchen. Outside the pitch and grass and kitchen. Outside the pitch and kitchen. The Dof and restaurant manager will take of it.
+ Keep it simple.
+ Lay down your ego and for the best of the fans and club. Same direction
+ Agreement of the roles and jobs in the first place. To avoid later arguing. Like decision and who is responsible
In the end. In theory everything is perfect and harmony. But in practice it is not. With ingredients of different ego, power and others things involving. Not a chance it will turn out to be harmony. The practical side. Not only with. football But life, society and world in general.
Again. I’m not 100% about the reasons. Just viewing it from the outside. Exactly why. You get to ask and interview mr.Woodward. So i can be wrong with mine reasons. But this is how personally will run my business if i am the owner of a club or restaurant. And peoples are doing it in different ways. So just mine personally thoughts, views and opinions. There are different and many paths to the top of the mountain
Can't they just create a new job for Ole find some job title keep him at the club with his mates, and bring in a proper manager.