Which attainable manager guarantees more than Ole is delivering right now? I have been ole out at times but you have to concede that there's very few managers who can come in and bridge the gap to City and many managers who wouldn't have us in second place even.
Is Ole’s football really any better than José & LVG’s?
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Again, you claimed Everton were a better team than us remember!
Second with 10 to games to go and still in 2 cup competitions isnt baby steps unless being in contention for the treble is considered minimum progress.
Again, you claimed Everton were a better team than us remember!
Mate, even Ole doesn't guarantee it. We got top 4 by the skin of the teeth last season and there's no guarantee we will get it this season. Top 4 is the minimum with the financial outlay and time Ole has been given that others have not.
LVG's football - boring shite, Mourinho's football - negative shite, Ole's - undefined shite.
We were second under Mou and won the EL in his first season. Spent what 300 mill since then? Where is the progress to that?
You can't have it both ways. Under SAF United is supposed to win every game. So if Ole is trying to follow him then he is expected to win every game. Whether he can is a different issue.
Why is he losing all these players to injury? They are not getting kicked off. They pull something and come off.
We are doomed.
Yes sorry for nitpicking. City were higher before the derby as well. Still clear 2nd though.You’re right. I fecked up the maths. City have played one more game than us. They scored 5 goals in that game, to give them a total of 61. Which is 6 more than our total of 55. I was out by 1 goal. Completely undermines my point
We were second under Mourinho. It just stinks of whataboutism considering we could easily end up 5th in a few weeks if results go the other way. And let's not get started on the teams general performances. If you really think there's been a lot of progress, then fair fecks to you.
We were in semi's last season so still being in cup competitions means feck all unless we win it so that's yet to be decided. Not to mention the only reason why we are in the Europa is because we ballsed up the Champions League. Progress indeed.
And I said Everton looked better than us at the time we were getting demolished by Palace but carry on holding onto something I said on the first day of the season to suit your agenda. That doesn't make you look like your clutching at straws at all.
Nitpicking is ok. I do it all the time. Would have helped to point out the detail though. Anyhoo. @Leroy The Red has undermined that point even more successfully!
Disagree on the bolded in particular, it’s nothing like Mourinho’s. Ole’s is a much longer term plan, Mourinho was buying the wrong type of player for short term results, it’s the opposite with Ole.
Not to mention the style and intent is there to improve in an attacking sense, including a forward press that we have never implemented remotely prior to Ole.
Of course he’s not SAF’s level, nobody is frankly and we may never have somebody on his level ever again. That said there is no major issue with having a similar vision to how the club should be run and how we should play as a team.
You can see this with the extra focus on academy talent, the total shift in player demographic for recruitment, our intent to play attacking football with a coherent press (not there yet but it’s the intent and direction that matters to me at this stage.)
SAF oversaw every detail but he also knew his limits and ensured he had talented staff alongside him to run the various departments, the recent news of a restructure with a DOF and Ole’s desire to implement that hints that he’s trying to ensure he has the correct support structure around him.
With the right recruitment he can then focus on the football, style of play and fielding a team capable of producing that vision on the pitch.
But we arent building from that point in time. We are building from the carnage after that.
Ole took us to 3rd last year, had a horrendous window thanks to the board so has coached basically the same 11 to pass it out from the back, score goals and show incredible resiliency as being very difficult to beat.
People wanted us to build long term until we build long term
Finding someone to bridge that gap isn’t easy but the solution isn’t just sticking with what you have. There is no guarantee either way.
Personally I think any progress is minimal but it’s fair enough that opinions vary. I still think we’re failing to tackle our biggest issue which is how play. We needed and still need someone to focus on what we do on the pitch not an obsession with culture, DNA and nostalgia.
It's really tough to tell because Ole has matches where we are great and then matches where we actually look worse than Jose.
Definitely. Some people have short memories!
We were so dull under LvG. I’m not actually criticising him for that as you could see what he wanted to achieve and actually, I’d argue that tactically it was the most well-drilled I had ever seen United. I think had LvG joined immediately after SAF and been slightly younger, he could have made it work. However, let’s not pretend it wasn’t dire. I once went to ten consecutive home games without seeing a goal at my end (East Stand) and usually if we went 0-1 down it was game over!
Under Jose, I didn’t really know what the plan was. I’m not a great believer in all this talk of managers not understanding a club’s DNA (in relation to how they play) but Jose really did play a brand of football I don’t want to see at United. I actually gave my season ticket up after Jose’s first year in charge and we had just finished 2nd. I didn’t like the team, I didn’t like the performances and it was getting harder and harder to motivate myself to go to the games, the whole atmosphere was toxic, so I gave up.
I don’t see how anybody can compare either manager to Ole, under whom we’ve regularly scored 3+ goals in games and had some really exciting comebacks. Out problem under Ole has been a soft underbelly at set-pieces and not having a proper CF. Sort those two things out and all other things being equal, i think we would be 10-12pts better off now.
We were so dull under LvG. I’m not actually criticising him for that as you could see what he wanted to achieve and actually, I’d argue that tactically it was the most well-drilled I had ever seen United. I think had LvG joined immediately after SAF and been slightly younger, he could have made it work. However, let’s not pretend it wasn’t dire. I once went to ten consecutive home games without seeing a goal at my end (East Stand) and usually if we went 0-1 down it was game over!
Under Jose, I didn’t really know what the plan was. I’m not a great believer in all this talk of managers not understanding a club’s DNA (in relation to how they play) but Jose really did play a brand of football I don’t want to see at United. I actually gave my season ticket up after Jose’s first year in charge and we had just finished 2nd. I didn’t like the team, I didn’t like the performances and it was getting harder and harder to motivate myself to go to the games, the whole atmosphere was toxic, so I gave up.
I don’t see how anybody can compare either manager to Ole, under whom we’ve regularly scored 3+ goals in games and had some really exciting comebacks. Out problem under Ole has been a soft underbelly at set-pieces and not having a proper CF. Sort those two things out and all other things being equal, i think we would be 10-12pts better off now.
I see your first point but the result of Mou's behaviour were seen after he left: A huge relief within a good squad and good performances after that. After our honeymoon period was over however there was zero progress in our play. We spent big but that didn't change much. I fear we are going nowhere with him. This is as far as he can take us. Settled the team and fair fecks for him for doing that. But now it's time to move on to a manager that can win us things.
The transfers are different but that’s the club not Ole, that happens with or without him, same goes for academy. Ole hasn't built this structure he’s just part of it.
How we play on the pitch which is Ole’s responsibility is still based on counter attacking, struggling against low blocks, happen to play for draws too often and hardly any movement off the ball. It’s been tweaks to what Mourinho was doing rather than ripping it up and starting again.
We'll have to disagree on that. Was having a similar conversation with another poster recently where they were minimising Ole's involvement in recruitment in particular, citing the fact he can be veto'd as a reason to remove any praise he deserves for player selection.
Yes there have been improvements behind the scenes but Ole has been integral to that. He still chooses the players we sign. It's echoed in what he says regarding the type of player we look for and he's been consistent with that since his arrival, likewise he was integral in getting rid of players who didn't fit that vision. He's done a brilliant job and people like to pretend he hasn't, I understand frustration with the lack of consistency, fair enough, but recruitment and the overall direction is better and I don't agree it's in any way linked to Mourinho, it's the polar opposite imo.
Literally no one is saying this after the Milan game. We're generally awful in most games and incredibly reliant on how our opposition plays to determine whether we're going to play well or not.
Take City, scoring early meant they had to attack us and that left space for us. Had we not won that early penatly, we'd have been in for a tough game. Im sick of this shit football. I still cannot believe we hired Ole.
He hasn’t changed the transfer policy, he hasn’t changed the academy that’s evident. A structure has been built in order not to be reliant on an individual, that was happening with or without Ole and will continue when he’s gone. What do you think he’s done behind the scenes?. This is a common misconception, seen people crediting Ole with sorting out the academy even though it was done before he arrived.
Ole has clearly been involved in who comes in but he’s working within parameters which makes sense and Bruno apart our transfers haven’t set the world alight, I also don’t understand how Ole can be described as having done a brilliant job.
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He's certainly not flawless, he has been quite pragmatic at times. But this pragmatism is usually as a result of defensive problems; we've often struggled to play aggressive football without conceding too many goals as a consequence. That's why when in doubt, Fred and McT come back into the team to sure up our defensive structure. We were starting to get the balance right when Pogba stepped up and was playing well in the middle, but his injury set us back as we have no one else capable of fulfilling that role. We also don't have a proper striker besides 34 year old Cavani and no proper RW. We might be one of the biggest clubs in the world but we're painfully light in key areas of the squad, especially once a few injuries start to creep in.
And yet we're still 2nd in the league.
I disagree we are generally awful. We've had some bad games, some meh ones like last night and some very good ones. I cannot believe some can't see the general improvement we've had over the last year or so and how we are building something special here with a lot of young and hungry players. If you don't like football on the transition with fast and skillful players then I don't know why you fallow United; we've always been like that under SAF. It just makes a massive difference if you have Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo in attack rather then young Greenwood, out of form Martial and rooky James, not to mention the center mid of 2 DMs because we're f'ed with injuries.
There's no magic bullet of changing one man and everything will be perfect again. Transitions are difficult but this is a good one compared to the failure of LVG and Mourinho.
I think you can see the difference last night. On paper 2 equal teams there or thereabouts. Their central midfield pissed all over ours. McTom Fred and Matic are not the quality we need in midfield if we want to have any hope of winning the big trophies.
Yes plenty of hungry players. More than half of them look like they want to lie down and have a snooze during large portions of games, including our manager sat in the dugout. How many times have we come out of the traps like we did vs City on Sunday and Leeds at Old Trafford? Could you even think of another match? Also let's talk about improvement at the end of the season as our position in the league is far from sealed.
Spot on. Fully agree.
Second with 81 points no less.
I don't think we look any different to most of Jose's tenure. Better than his third season. We've got Bruno instead of Lingard is the big difference.
People want to like Ole and hated Jose so they'll see different but that's all it is blind bias.
People want to like Ole and hated Jose so they'll see different but that's all it is blind bias.
We also regularly lost to the relegation fodder... As far as the record against the top teams, it truly was a different league back then in terms of the quality of the “big teams”, just ask Leicester City.
If LVG had control over this squad and were to compete against the modern PL coaches and teams, there would really be no doubt how far out of his depth he would be. He is a remnant of a former time who never had the ability to adapt his approach. A footballing dinosaur who gutted our squad, signed a whole team of horrible players, marginalized our fans, and implemented one of the worst “systems” of play I’ve ever seen.
LVG was the very worst. Thinking about it gives me PTSD.
This is what I was saying after the match last night. Our midfield was terrible. I like McTominay, to be fair, but as a unit, they just didn't work at all. I know people said we were negative and just sat back, but I didn't see it as us being negative, I saw it as us being incapable of progressing the ball up the pitch because we're terrible (most of the time) and playing out of a high press, particularly with that midfield. I don't think we necessarily sat back by choice.
I think fans have very selective memories when it comes to us under Jose. Watching us play under him is the closest I’ve ever come to giving up on football. His brand is absolutely dire, did he improve a single player during his time here?
Yuh, the comebacks have definitely been a huge factor in better entertainment value in our games, aesthetically though I still feel im not watching something pleasing enough. Under Mourinho it was very much go 1 or 2 goals up then show no ambition and end up scrapping a win, we do at least now have the comebacks.
And for the latter, it definitely helps not having a bell end as a manager. But I do feel these things are ultimately superficial in looking at the overall picture, which is probably why there’s so much debate on here about it.
I beg to differ
I don't need to see the end of the season to know that up to this point there has been steady improvement. Do you disagree that from the end of Mourinho, to Oles first season finishing 3ed while improving performances throughout the season and this season being second and even 1st at the mid point is not an obvious look of the team evolving?
That money was spend on defence on midfield
I’m sure he would of liked to strengthen that as well but can only buy so many at a time.
What is better football and how is it measured? Is it success, goals scored or conceded, particular styles of play - can there ever be objective parameters? That's a big question in itself. Without a precise question discussion has largely been tangential.
Even at top football clubs that in theory are trying to meet sporting objectives that may be similar, it is not clear that there is any agreement on what better football is. We see this is in the many divergent styles of play that exist, even if there are some current trends.
If the question was 'is Oles football producing more goals' then the question can be quantitatively measured. This still doesn't tell us the football is better, only that we score more goals!
If it's a matter of how much do we enjoy watching Oles football in comparison to v.Gaal or Mourinho then it has to be acknowledged that this is purely a subjective viewpoint.
I would say that v.Gaal had a more distinctive style of play of the three managers. However the difficulty was he did not sign the quality of players necessary for that system or the club. In football the tactics and style may be sound but the players have to implement it, so if the recruitment does not work then the theoretical underpinning does not produce results. Which gets back to the original question..is better football an aesthetic quality or one determined by or interrelated with success?
Even at top football clubs that in theory are trying to meet sporting objectives that may be similar, it is not clear that there is any agreement on what better football is. We see this is in the many divergent styles of play that exist, even if there are some current trends.
If the question was 'is Oles football producing more goals' then the question can be quantitatively measured. This still doesn't tell us the football is better, only that we score more goals!
If it's a matter of how much do we enjoy watching Oles football in comparison to v.Gaal or Mourinho then it has to be acknowledged that this is purely a subjective viewpoint.
I would say that v.Gaal had a more distinctive style of play of the three managers. However the difficulty was he did not sign the quality of players necessary for that system or the club. In football the tactics and style may be sound but the players have to implement it, so if the recruitment does not work then the theoretical underpinning does not produce results. Which gets back to the original question..is better football an aesthetic quality or one determined by or interrelated with success?
We don’t have much choice do we??
Yes there is selective memory from you too in that instance. Jose had matches where we played very well and many where we were dire.
A few of the worst performances I've seen us seem to be under Ole as manager, such as losing to an already relegated Huddersfield 6 months after he joined, being thumped by Everton and both Palace fixtures this season, together with WBA too.
The level of those performances are as bad as I've seen, regardless of manager.
How are you quantifying this?
It could be true but that team also finished 7th in the league I think and played terrible football. It was a dead end and a season like that would only be seen as a pure positive for a club like Spurs. We were not building anything.
I would say this is a balanced view if this was his first full season but they reality is we have two strikers who both scored over 20+ goals last season + Cavani + backups of high quality like Greenwood. We have so much more depth than almost everyone and have been relatively lucky with injuries. We have more midfield depth than everyone bar City and same goes for defence and keeper. Ole doesn't have to play a double pivot, that's his choice and - I was saying this to another poster - if this is just his tactics because it's such a weird season and he only needs top four to survive, I'd get it. But I'm not sure it is - this is how he's always setup - he adopted Jose's setup (he even said when his initial great run came he'd not changed anything tactically aside from allowing Pogba more freedom) and he's kept the same structure whilst adding better players.
Ole is not a PE teacher, he's not even that bad a manager and can set us up to counter really well against top teams but he is so evidently not in the elite bracket. That's the issue here, there is a clash between where the club wants to be and who they have trying to get us there. We have good players, we have good depth but our football is awful to watch 8 out of 10 games. Ole's only saving grace is league position which emphasises the question, how is he different to Mou?
I don't believe the end if Mourinho's stint or Ole's current stint is good enough for United. Our managerial appointments since SAF stepped down have been all wrong. Purely looking at our position on the table does not in any shape or form tell the full story about what's been occurring on the pitch for almost the entirely of 2021 and for many long patches beforehand. Do you seriously look at our performances over the past two months or so and think "yeah this bunch under Ole, Carrick and Mckenna are going to win a title next season"? Yeah we'll bring in two or three or more players but more than likely continue to look far worse than the sum of our parts. Exciting players like Rashford, Martial and Greenwood have all gone completely backwards under these coaches.
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