It’s the propaganda around him, and the price tag.
People make him a meme “lol 85 mil” etc and it’s easy to believe the narrative.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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People make him a meme “lol 85 mil” etc and it’s easy to believe the narrative.
No idea what you're on about, the topic is about Rodgers being randomly critisised. Holier than thou? I have serious doubts about him ffs and wanted him out back in 2019 when things looked dour. I just think some - like you- are utterly obsessed and your extremist attitude doesn't do the forum any good. Sure go off and make baseless criticisms about other managers. You obviously deem anyone praising another manager to be an attack on Ole. Obsessive.
Good job Pep didn’t rate Maguire then
But sure, Ole wanting to sign him is an indictment of his footballing acumen.
Yeah, there are several sticks to beat OGS with, but Maguire is not one of them. Signing him was a no-brainer.
Fair enough. What you said then
You don't think players are more important than coaches? Really. Who gets paid more?
Do you think City went out and signed a rough diamond in Mahrez and made him great or were they not signing one of the best players around for huge money at the time. Same goes for
De Bruyne
Sterling
Sane
Silva
Silva
Aguero
I'm focusing on the attacking players because you can, to a degree, coach a team to defend well but Pep can't coach Rashford to pass and move the way the above players do. Not unless he started when Rashford was 8.
City have great technical attacking and defensive players. We don't. They're not brilliant technically because they have great coaches. City bought them for fortunes because they're brilliant technically. They've been doing it for 10 years and although we've started to match them for spending its hard to sell a Mahrez United if City are in for him too.
He'll want to play with the best.
We've definitely dropped the ball for 10 years with bad signings but that can't really be all levelled at Ole's door. I would like to see him sign more technically gifted footballers but I do go along with the idea that he really wanted
Sancho and that signing would have really went a long way towards helping us this season.
I'm not happy with a lot of the football we serve up but it comes down to the players we have. When we get the right players in, the style will improve. The greatest coach in the world can't teach Fred and Mctominay to play like Veratti and Modric.
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Maguire isn't perfect but he's an upgrade on what we had and actually manages to stay fit!
Aye.
@Amir Can we agree almost none of our goals against this season came from Maguire's slowness? I can't remember it costing us either.
So what other glaring weakness does Maguire have that we need to compensate for?
Which manager would've risked a sacking rather than say yes to the Maguire deal in August? Moyes?
Which manager would be so selfless and say no to the deal to "not harm the club"? Ghandi?
Seems like an unfair criticism of Ole. As MinGin pointed out, more likely than not, he'll get another overpriced option a year later.
Funnily enough Ole is involved with some of the changes to the club can prevent us from overpaying in the future. We can be pessimistic and think things won't change with Woodward, but can't fault Ole for trying.
So what other glaring weakness does Maguire have that we need to compensate for?
What's wrong with Ole taking the overpriced option to stay in his job (because it was an improvement)? Your critique is basically "if he loves the club so much, he wouldn't let poor Utd overpay", as if our transfer budget is an accurate representation of what we can afford to spend.
Which manager would've risked a sacking rather than say yes to the Maguire deal in August? Moyes?
Which manager would be so selfless and say no to the deal to "not harm the club"? Ghandi?
Seems like an unfair criticism of Ole. As MinGin pointed out, more likely than not, he'll get another overpriced option a year later.
Funnily enough Ole is involved with some of the changes to the club can prevent us from overpaying in the future. We can be pessimistic and think things won't change with Woodward, but can't fault Ole for trying.
85 million for a player that isn't special is a meme. He's fairly ordinary. We overpaid by close to half his price. At least we started a trend with City paying 45m for Ake.
You’re proving my point, is it his fault he cost 85 million? No. He’s a very good defender though and people are ridiculous in his criticism as if we signed a really bad defender. He’s clearly a solid defender that we can all agree cost too much.
Its bananas
Yes, I'd say good coaching staff is just as important as good players, regardless of context. Great coaches improve great players even further and even improve lesser players due to a system. The best teams in the World aren't looking to pay the best money and look for the best coaches for shits and giggles. The rest of your post is silly. We hardly have a lack of technical players in our squad. What we lack is a system to get the best out of them. Players like Gundogan aren't any more impressive than players like Pogba or Bruno. Yet the way he dominates games is on another level to those two, as the style of play that city employ on their teams is second to none. Players like Henderson etc. would have been laughed at United. There is countless examples. Look at what Nagelsmann is doing with Leipzig, the football they play is great to watch, effective, relentless and they are neck to neck with a Bayern team and I bet you'd be hard done naming half the squad. Once again returning to the original point - a great system elevates great players even further, whilst also making lesser players more useful throughout the season due to understanding their roles and being able to fill in to a higher degree. You don't need a whole world class squad to do that. No-one is expecting us to go head to head with City, that's not why we want him out. Why people are losing faith/have lost faith is the lack of progress in regards to eventually being able to contest City - evident in our football. He didn't fecking join yesterday, he's been here a considerable amount of time, long enough for people to begin identifying the style and approach he is going for with this team.
Lastly, your point about Pep not being able to teach Rashford how to pass and move is the most ridiculous thing I've read on here in a while. Pep, the manager known for his relentless pursuit of passing patterns and movement, can't improve a player as gifted as Rashford? Look at what he's done to players like Sterling, Sane's best season etc. That is a ridiculous opinion imo. Pep would absolutely do far better with this squad than Ole would. Anyone thinking otherwise is in fecking la la land tbf.
The £80m for Maguire was market price for what was available at the time.
He's not the best in the world, but he's very solid and reliable.
We didn't have any proper long-term captains in the club (evidenced by Young being picked after Valencia that summer), and I'm certain Ole always planned to make him captain by the following summer (but Young moved in Jan), this to help change the culture in the club/locker room. There's lotsa reports on Maguire doing lots behind the scenes for the culture, including making everyone demand more from themselves for punctuality and professionality for showing up for training, meetings etc.
He's English (and a national team regular), meaning he qualifies as homegrown, and we need at least 8 senior (over 21) players in the squad that are homegrown or we can't have 25 squad players. We were about to get rid of several other homegrown players, and we needed to refill with some solid players part of the core that was likely to stay at the club for 5-10 years. (Another reason why AWB was favored.)
And he was available that summer, so we needed him then to get the project started to start working on the team culture.
Had Maguire been dutch like Ake I'm sure he would have gone for 40-50m. But he had those other factors that meant that Leicester could charge more in this limited supply and demand market.
Over time he'll definitely be worth the fee.
How is Rashford gifted though? He's lightning fast and he can dribble past players when there's lots of space. He is not as technically gifted as any of City's forwards. He doesn't give and go like Sterling or beat players in tight spaces like Mahrez. This is why City are better at breaking down teams who park the bus. Just look at Rashford's stats. He is ten times better in games where we are countering.
If the coaches were that critical then surely they'd all be on similar money to the players. Do you honestly think that if Mctominay went to City that he would start playing like De Bruyne because of their wonderful coaches?
So you think our players are close to City's technically. You think Cancelo and Bissaka are similar technically. You think Fred and Rodri are similar technically. You think Gundogan and Mctominay are similar technically. I'm sorry but they're not.
Greenwood is very good technically but Mahrez is further along in his career and is obviously the better right winger. They also have Silva just sitting on the bench too. How can you not see that difference Womp?
Sterling and Rashford although similar in quality have different talents which I've outlined. Bruno and Pogba are obviously very good technically but Pogba has missed over half of the games under Ole. That needs to be highlighted more when people talk about injuries.
I haven't even mentioned Phil Foden yet. What a player he is.
I can't agree with your stance and I would honestly say that if Ole had City's squad that we would dominate the league playing world class football simply because Ole would have the best players at his disposal.
Pep weekly wage is above every City player. Same with Klopp.
Fair point, but I think he meant the first team coaches at every team, not the manager.
Since the claim was all the coaches at city would make some of our average players world class.
Excellent post and most United doomsayers and Ole bashers would suggest our squad is tumescent and heap praise on Leicesters players, in particular their midfield of Barnes, Tielmans and Maddison.
Not sure that this has been claimed. The discussion went about the importance of players vs coaching. And how Ole would dominate the league and played world class football with City players. Maybe he would win the league somehow (I have my doubts), but the playing style would be massively different for sure and if we are honest not nearly as dominant. There is a reason why Pep is the highest paid manager in the world.
Also, surely when you imply the importance of coaching, you mean the guy who pulls all the strings. I wouldn't want Arteta in United, let alone some other unproven member of Pep coaching team.
Were talking coaches not the managers
I saw someone try justify saying Leicester had a better squad than ours
The post you quoted from (see below) specifically mentioned city's coaches, in plural. Meaning the coaching team around city is what would make our "average" players world class.
Edit: Also in regards to "importance of coaching", the trend on here lately has been to want to swap out our coaches (carrick etc) so that our coaching can get better, since Ole focuses more on the managing and over-all picture instead of day to day coaching on the training ground. (Personally I'm for keeping them on to see how it can go next year, but am not against adding another coach if the right candidate can be made available.)
And the post he quoted talks pretty much about Nagelsmann/Pep influence on their team.
Not really, see above. We can ask @Womp if we are not sure.
Anyway, back to your point. If players are so much more important, why Pep and Klopp are higest paid people in the team? You know, with them being head coaches.
Yep, exactly. I said the same to him before. Thank God you brought the receipts
Hilariously the opposite is true.
You could also ask @Olecurls99 since he started talking about coaches at City in plural and how they are less important than the technical ability of players, which is why the city coachES aren't paid as much as the players.
which womp then replied to saying he thinks coaches has just as much importance.
The receiptsYep, exactly. I said the same to him before. Thank God you brought the receipts
I was a right negative Nancy for a while after the Jose fiasco tbh. Luckily I learned from my cnutish behaviour and took a step back and tried looking at the situation more rationally. You on the other hand...
Put me on ignore if I bother you because I'll continue to call out the bullshit hypocrisy when I see it.
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No brainer? Honestly?
Top post. I fear it has too much common sense to gain much attention here though bud.
LITERALLY NOBODY claims Ole is the next SAF. Some of us just have the level headedness to assess the situation as a whole, the progress we’ve made, where we are heading and what alternatives there are.
When you do that there is next to zero reason to sack Ole at this point.
If Pep or Klopp turned up and Old Trafford would I consider changing Ole? Yes absolutely, and I’ve backed Ole consistently.
The fact is we are making slow but steady progress and improving the starting 11, meanwhile there is no alternative manager to guarantee an improvement on that.
The common sense approach would be to continue building on that foundation and actually plan ahead with our next appointment (weve never done that.) With the benefit of a DOF overseeing any transition to ensure continuous improvement.
People here talk about City being streets ahead of everyone because of their financial power, and then accept their manager saying he lost out on a player because he couldn't afford him.
I can't give you an example because I barely remember any goals scored in our games this season. I watch them once and move on with my life nowadays, so it's about the impression in my mind rather than any examples. Is that impression wrong? Maybe, but I do believe that it hampers us, and also limits the way with play (partially because our other regular CB isn't exactly quick as well).
I'm OK with overpriced. The question revolves around what that player gives you. Maguire improved us short term, no doubt about it, but he also causes issues that could and I believe will hamper us if we want to get to the absolute top. I think we should have looked better and thought longer term about what would serve us.
What manager would be so selfless? Probably someone like Fergie or Wenger, people who were at the job for so long and were not worried abot their positions, so they would think beyond the next six or twelve months. But I guess those no longer exist. That's why we can't give the manager all the power, as he's likely to think about himself. Even if some people believe Solskjaer is better than that. He's not. He's another manager wanting to survive, no matter what he was for us as a player.
Which is why I'd never put him on some great moral pedestal as others do. His history with us means nothing to me when I judge him as manager. Same as Mourinho or Moyes.
If you're an agenda poster it'll work something like this: Rodgers is shite and only doing well because Leicester have a top four squad or Rodgers is a miracle worker doing wonders with a mid-table squad.
People may not like Rodgers - I can clearly see why - but he's doing a very good job with Leicester. He has his shortcomings for sure, but I believe he's learned some lessons from his Liverpool spell. I also happen to think Leicester have a very good squad.
They've some good players but the hype about them is insane tbh.I saw someone try justify saying Leicester had a better squad than ours
Of course when Tielmans scored most forums I'm on lauded over him, whilst ignoring the fact that's the first time he's showed up in a game against us in I think 4 tries.
I've watched Leicester probably approx 20 times over 2 seasons and they are hit and miss and their midfield often doesn't impress me that much.
And the other side constantly puts emphasis on the importance of head coach (specifically mentioning Pep/Nagelsmann). Which is understandable considering what is their main responsibility and if you move them pretty much everything about the coaching part changes. Move Arteta and still everything stays the same.
Now, would you be kind and answer my question.
We already had a transfer committee in place since the summer of 2018, so it was a club decision to go for Maguire, not a selfish move by Ole. If anyone disagreed they could have vetoed the move.
He was what we needed at the time (and still do). There wasn't any other like him available so we paid more than we might have needed another time or if there were options that summer.
You give yourself far too much credit.The receipts
I was a right negative Nancy for a while after the Jose fiasco tbh. Luckily I learned from my cnutish behaviour and took a step back and tried look at the situation more rationally. You on the other hand...
Put me on ignore if I bother you because I'll continue to call out the bullshit hypocrisy when I see it.
The fact that you're still talking about hypocrisy when you're still trying to police other people's feelings despite being called out for your own regressive behaviour says it all.
I mean, it is literally a forum where people discuss matters relating to football. Do you really think those people who actually defended the manager and club during those early days are not going to say I told you so? Or aren't going to back their corner? Even now, this thread turns into a train wreck after every draw, let alone loss. Do you not see how batshit mental that is? The goalposts have moved to such an extent that we're even arguing the whys and wherefores of a fecking draw! If he ever won the title, I guarantee we're still going to see some bullshit about how he won it the wrong way, or because the other teams dropped down a level. But that's not an issue for you, is it? I don't see you calling those people out at all. Yet, we're the hypocrites, the ones who unlike yourself have steadfastly held to the same line from day one. Please, make it make sense. We had people like yourself a year ago literally counting down the days til he was sacked, but that isn't seen as an issue for you. Oh no, what the real issue is a Manchester United supporter, who actually supports the club. That's the line you've drawn in the sand
You and many others have been proven wrong by Ole multiple times over the past 18 months or so, and I'm sure that's hurt your pride, but there's no need to be Mr Perspective after the fact, when you've engaged in the 'bullshit hypocrisy' as you call it, just as much as anyone else. That just comes across as, ironically enough, holier than thou (which is what you accuse those who back Ole of) and very much a "do what I say, not what I do" attitude.
More ramblings. Feel free to ramble on some more... Better still, feel free to give out about those nasty 'Ole haters' and all the awful things they do, while doing the same things yourself. But of course, you believe you're holier than thou because you do it for the greater good. Nah, the rabid Ole in are just as shitty and agenda driven as the rabid Ole out.You give yourself far too much credit.
The fact that you're still talking about hypocrisy when you're still trying to police other people's feelings despite being called out for your own regressive behaviour says it all.
I mean, it is literally a forum where people discuss matters relating to football. Do you really think those people who actually defended the manager and club during those early days are not going to say I told you so? Or aren't going to back their corner? Even now, this thread turns into a train wreck after every draw, let alone loss. Do you not see how batshit mental that is? The goalposts have moved to such an extent that we're even arguing the whys and wherefores of a fecking draw! If he ever won the title, I guarantee we're still going to see some bullshit about how he won it the wrong way, or because the other teams dropped down a level. But that's not an issue for you, is it? I don't see you calling those people out at all. Yet, we're the hypocrites, the ones who unlike yourself have steadfastly held to the same line from day one. Please, make it make sense. We had people like yourself a year ago literally counting down the days til he was sacked, but that isn't seen as an issue for you. Oh no, what the real issue is a Manchester United supporter, who actually supports the club. That's the line you've drawn in the sand
You and many others have been proven wrong by Ole multiple times over the past 18 months or so, and I'm sure that's hurt your pride, but there's no need to be Mr Perspective after the fact, when you've engaged in the 'bullshit hypocrisy' as you call it, just as much as anyone else. That just comes across as, ironically enough, holier than thou (which is what you accuse those who back Ole of) and very much a "do what I say, not what I do" attitude.
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I assume you mean:
I didn't think there was anything for me to answer here as my first reply to you was "good point" about pep and klopp making more. (But that the point was about the other coaches in the team working under the manager.)
The Head Coach (or Manager as normally referred to in the Prem) is absolutelty important as they are in charge of setting the over all strategy, they man manage the players AND the coaches. Over all if the results go badly the buck stops with them. They have a lot of responsibility (stress) on their shoulders. And in a way it's a psychological element that the boss of the players should at least make as much as the players he manage ("why should I listen to someone who makes less than me", it's a childish thought, but it does happen).
The coaches in the team are more like your co-workers as they are essentially support-staff to make you perform. And if you don't listen to them your boss/manager will tell you to.
Ah, fair enough. Apologies, that question was more for Olecurls99.
Agree about the rest of you post.
Amen, there is no line both camps wouldnt cross to spin some drivel in defense of their PoV or for/vs their guy.
"And how Ole would dominate the league and play world class football with City players"
This is my whole point in a nut shell. He wouldn't be playing. The players play the world class football. The manager selects them.
Do you think it's a coincidence that Zidane is one of the most successful managers and a great player? Of course not. He had the 3 things you need to be a successful manager.
1.Respect amongst the football community
2. Common sense
3. Great players
Guardiola has the same things. It's not rocket science. Bloody hell even Di Matteo won the Champions league with Chelsea.
Coming back to us. Ole has the common sense. His respect amongst the football community is being chipped away at by elements in the media and on here. He just needs some more really good players.
Your point seems to be that the manager doesn't actually matter at all, which is a bit odd, particularly from a Manchester United fan.
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