Noot
Full Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2021
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- Manchester City
You'd what?I'd argue Zidane has been better over the last 10 years
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You'd what?I'd argue Zidane has been better over the last 10 years
I'm not up to speed with his Barca B stuff but you say he turned Barca b into one of the best sides in the league. I'm guessing this was a lower league. Why would this earn him the top job ahead of managers who have done far more in the game?Why would he? How does that benefit him or his family in any way?
Okay.
His first season as a manager- at Barca B. He turned them into one of the best sides in the division and earned his first team job by doing so well there. Since then he's gone from strength to strength, something Ancelotti, Mourinho etc have all failed miserably at. There's a good reason he's the only manager ever to coach three top sides in ten years without ever getting sacked- because it's incredibly difficult. People think football is FIFA where having the best squad is 90% of the struggle. You say anyone could do it... well, why haven't they? Why's he the only one?
Nobody would've succeeded with that squad.His first season at City has a bit of evidence to show that he wouldn't be as good without unlimited funds as his team only finished 3rd. He had to spend a ton of money to make his team look this good, he still had a very good team but it shows glimpses of why he couldn't succeed with any players.
I would add to this that what really sets Ferguson apart is that he instilled a winning mentality in his teams, year after year. This is something Pep is unable to do. It's the most difficult thing to achieve in sports. Just look at Liverpool this season, Klopp cannot master this skill either. Ferguson's teams could win the quadruple and then the next day be focused on winning the league the next season. Rio said after they won the CL, there was no celebration the next day - they were just focused on the league title. And the day after winning the league, next year's title. It's one of the reason's Keane said he knew Yorke had to leave. He said Yoke had said that if he never won anything else (after the CL win) then he didn't care. That's when Keane knew he'd be sold. Because that's not the mentality of a Ferguson player.Pep is a great manager. No one would argue against that who is sane.
But there is no debate between him and Ferguson.
Fergie won a European trophy with Aberdeen. He won the treble. He won titles with half his players being from the youth team. Players he produced and developed. He won titles with sides that were clearly inferior to other teams in the division. He rebuilt teams without moving the earth to do so and won titles after people had written him off.
He did things that Guardiola just can’t do. He needs the money. Nothing wrong with that, of course. It’s still impressive how he sets them up, but he is not on the same level as Ferguson, and his achievements, in their billion pound context, just don’t match up.
He didn't win La Liga with them if that's what you're suggesting.I'm not up to speed with his Barca B stuff but you say he turned Barca b into one of the best sides in the league. I'm guessing this was a lower league.
Because Barca's president saw Pep's obvious coaching ability and decided to give him the opportunity.Why would this earn him the top job ahead of managers who have done far more in the game?
But you could count with one thumb the number of managers who've done it with all three, multiple times per club, in about twelve years and all without ever having a truly bad season or even coming close to getting sacked. There's only one- Pep.He's not the only manager to win things with Barca, Bayern and Man City over the past 13 years. I reckon you wouldn't be able to count on 2 hands the managers who have won the league with those 3 over that period. Bayern win it every year.
No chance. Our dominance is over when Pep goes. We'll probably win the league once every three or four seasons at best.City are well on their way to replicating that whoever their manager is.
How have you come to that conclusion?I would add to this that what really sets Ferguson apart is that he instilled a winning mentality in his teams, year after year. This is something Pep is unable to do.
Pep would not have the poor season Klopp is having this season though.For what it’s worth if I compare let’s say Klopp to Pep and exchange their clubs I can imagine the following outcome:
Pep joins Liverpool instead of City:
I do not believe with similar players / similar spending to Klopp, Pep would have reached 2 CL finals and competed for the league title two seasons in a row - he would not have 3 high level seasons in a row
Klopp joins City instead of Liverpool:
With a similar spending to Pep, Klopp would probably have won maybe 2 league titles instead of 3, but would most likely also have reached two CL finals. I mean he would have definitely not taken 5 seasons with draws like Lyon, Spurs, Monaco to reach a semi in a season where his toughest opponents were Mönchengladbach and Dortmund’s under 20. However he probably wouldn’t have had Pep’s consistency in the league and might even have finished outside of top 3/4 in the league at least once.
I personally prefer Klopp. But this best manager ever discussions are always incredibly recency biased. For example probably one of the best managers ever around 1980 isn’t even mentioned anymore nowadays in these kind of conversations and he is just one of many examples.
Pellegrini and Mancini and more will follow as City slowly increase their stranglehold on English football.He didn't win La Liga with them if that's what you're suggesting.
Because Barca's president saw Pep's obvious coaching ability and decided to give him the opportunity.
But you could count with one thumb the number of managers who've done it with all three, multiple times per club, in about twelve years and all without ever having a truly bad season or even coming close to getting sacked. There's only one- Pep.
No chance. Our dominance is over when Pep goes. We'll probably win the league once every three or four seasons at best.
At the end of the day it's incredibly easy to say that anyone can do it, but impossible to name anyone who actually has- or has even come very close.
I'm sure he's devastated.I'm not saying he would or he should. He can do what he likes. He'll probably stay at PetroCity spending a fortune on the best players around and winning trophies. I'm not overly impressed, unlike some. Klopp has done far more impressive things in the game in my opinion.
Pep: "I felt as if I could no longer lift the team.' "How have you come to that conclusion?
The length of Ferguson's reign at United is skewing your conclusion. You don't have to stay at a club for 20 years (like Ferguson did) to show that you can instill a winning mentality year in year out. This is about to be Guardiola's 9th league title... Weird to classify him as being unable to instill a winning mentality, and further classify Ferguson as the only manager in history with this quality.Pep: "I felt as if I could no longer lift the team.' "
'But gradually I found it more and more difficult to motivate myself and to motivate the team. That is when you know it is time to walk away,' said Guardiola.
The man himself admits he struggles to motivate a team past a certain point. I'm not sure how you can argue against it when he left Barca because in his own words he couldn't motivate his own players. City have only won the league once in succession. Ferguson won it back to back 6 times. With City's resources and squad if Pep was the same motivational level as Fergie - and as tactically advanced as he is you would expect that number to be much higher. He's simply not as good at motivating players, there's never been a manager that has been close to Ferguson in terms of motivational ability and that's nothing to be ashamed of because the man was simply in another league.
Yes yes. Very good.I'm sure he's devastated.
Ferguson was top notch when it came to motivating players. Nobody comes even close to him.Pep: "I felt as if I could no longer lift the team.' "
'But gradually I found it more and more difficult to motivate myself and to motivate the team. That is when you know it is time to walk away,' said Guardiola.
The man himself admits he struggles to motivate a team past a certain point. I'm not sure how you can argue against it when he left Barca because in his own words he couldn't motivate his own players. City have only won the league once in succession. Ferguson won it back to back 6 times. With City's resources and squad if Pep was the same motivational level as Fergie - and as tactically advanced as he is you would expect that number to be much higher. He's simply not as good at motivating players, there's never been a manager that has been close to Ferguson in terms of motivational ability and that's nothing to be ashamed of because the man was simply in another league.
None of our opinions matter to be honest, except to us. This is a debate that happens only on the internet.Yes yes. Very good.
In future I'll refrain from airing my football opinions on a football fan forum in fear of offending Pep or suffering witty snipes.
What was I thinking?
Let me ask you this though, out of curiosity... What do you think is the reason why Pep is regarded by all the big clubs as a great coach and why do they all want him if he's not all that great as you're claiming?Yes yes. Very good.
In future I'll refrain from airing my football opinions on a football fan forum in fear of offending Pep or suffering witty snipes.
What was I thinking?
That’s the important question, why would anyone voluntarily make that move. The best players usually want to play for the best teams, and it’s the same with managers. They’re ultra competitive and want trophies and success.He could, but why would he, when, with all due respect to Leicester, there would be 5 clubs with better pedigree courting him?
The reason why Jose Mourinho went to Spurs is because that was the best slot available to him. No other elite club in Europe wanted him. Now that he is sacked, he is being linked with Celtic. That hasn't happened to Pep yet. Why would he voluntarily make that step down?
I get what you’re saying now, but I still don’t really think it holds up. The claim I was disputing was about Guardiola inheriting the greatest ever club side, which when we look at the circumstances of the club when he took over we can see that it wasn’t the case and his contribution and role in the creation of that Barcelona side is often overlooked or underestimated. By looking at the years preceding we can see the situation the club was in, what players they had and how they were performing, the tactical style of the team and the success they had, we can breakdown the job that Guardiola did. The years after he left have absolutely nothing to do with assessing the work he did in the summer of ‘08. You yourself said that he deserves no credit for the work of the managers that came after, yet you think that the work of the managers who followed Guardiola should be taken into consideration when assessing his 08-09 season.We judge managers using a baseline. You are saying that the baseline for Pep's years in Barcelona should be "the two years at Barcelona before he became a manager." I am saying you should actually look at a longer period of time, both before and after he became manager, to understand what the real baseline of performance was.
Pep in the last 4 season in what is deemed the most competitive league in the world is 1st, 1st , 2nd likely 1st again. in 5 seasons in the leagueI would add to this that what really sets Ferguson apart is that he instilled a winning mentality in his teams, year after year. This is something Pep is unable to do. It's the most difficult thing to achieve in sports.
This inferior squad had Ronaldo, Kaka, Ramos, Modric, Benzema, Xabi, Ozil, Khedira, Marcelo, Coentrao, Casillas, Pepe, DiMariaPellegrini and Mancini and more will follow as City slowly increase their stranglehold on English football.
He did leave Barca after Mourinho beat him with an inferior Real squad in 2012. He wasn't sacked but it was hardly a glorious farewell. Villanova then took over and had a record breaking season. So...... Not that special
He ran off to bayern to win some easy leagues and now the same at PetroCity. Lovely stuff
The problem is that we risk reading too much into things for the simple reason that clubs have bad seasons every so often. I also don't really think that there is a widespread problem of people not giving credit to Guardiola for Barcelona, anyway, so I don't think his work there really needs to be defended a whole lot. I am "criticizing" him using a framework that also leads me to conclude he's the best manager in the world; I think he can take it.By looking at the years preceding we can see the situation the club was in, what players they had and how they were performing, the tactical style of the team and the success they had, we can breakdown the job that Guardiola did.
Zidane has 3 CLs in the last 10 years and 2 La Liga titles,You'd what?
Now you knowNot sure if this is serious or sarcasm.
Hey guys I agree with this Arse fan. We're getting soft.It's funny to see Man Utd fans wishing Pep is gone rather than hoping to beat a Pep team to the title. I guess you guys will not be real champions if you only win the title after Pep leaves Man City?
Only bad teams seek to win titles by hoping their rival team's manager is gone.
An Arsenal fan lecturing us on the intricacies of success.It's funny to see Man Utd fans wishing Pep is gone rather than hoping to beat a Pep team to the title. I guess you guys will not be real champions if you only win the title after Pep leaves Man City?
Only bad teams seek to win titles by hoping their rival team's manager is gone.
Zinchenko is the better LB. Cancelo is better at RB but Walker's pace is indispensable.His change at lb was a good one based on what was happening in the game
You never once wished Fergie to retire then? Not happy when he finally did?It's funny to see Man Utd fans wishing Pep is gone rather than hoping to beat a Pep team to the title. I guess you guys will not be real champions if you only win the title after Pep leaves Man City?
Only bad teams seek to win titles by hoping their rival team's manager is gone.
We’re realistic. We don’t have Sir Alex anymore. How are we going to surpass them with Ole & the Glazers? This isn’t Arsenal under Wenger or Chelsea under Jose, the gap is much bigger & we don’t have the facilities to close it right now. They have a massive financial advantage over everyone & the best coach in the world. We need significant investment & a much better manager to overtake them. Neither of those are realistic right now.It's funny to see Man Utd fans wishing Pep is gone rather than hoping to beat a Pep team to the title. I guess you guys will not be real champions if you only win the title after Pep leaves Man City?
Only bad teams seek to win titles by hoping their rival team's manager is gone.
Coming from a city fanOnly bad teams seek to win titles by hoping their rival team's manager is gone.
Admittedly, it's pathetic but I can't see us getting the better of them with this guy in charge of City.It's funny to see Man Utd fans wishing Pep is gone rather than hoping to beat a Pep team to the title. I guess you guys will not be real champions if you only win the title after Pep leaves Man City?
Only bad teams seek to win titles by hoping their rival team's manager is gone.
No. I would rather have a Arsenal team facing off Fergie than someone like Moyes.You never once wished Fergie to retire then? Not happy when he finally did?
Liar. Hahahaha
What an absolutely bizarre posts. I guess Liverpool's title doesn't count because they won it after Ferguson retired. Please...It's funny to see Man Utd fans wishing Pep is gone rather than hoping to beat a Pep team to the title. I guess you guys will not be real champions if you only win the title after Pep leaves Man City?
Only bad teams seek to win titles by hoping their rival team's manager is gone.
We spent years battling with you guys despite having far less resources and wealth, and including the fact that our best players were being poached nearly every season, including by you guys.An Arsenal fan lecturing us on the intricacies of success.
Don't even know where to start with that.
You guys still have one of the biggest revenue out of all the clubs in the world despite Glazers taking money from the club. Your net transfer spent is frankly ridiculous, and you guys have been breaking transfer records after Alex Ferguson left.We’re realistic. We don’t have Sir Alex anymore. How are we going to surpass them with Ole & the Glazers? This isn’t Arsenal under Wenger or Chelsea under Jose, the gap is much bigger & we don’t have the facilities to close it right now. They have a massive financial advantage over everyone & the best coach in the world. We need significant investment & a much better manager to overtake them. Neither of those are realistic right now.
Ole & the Glazers are going nowhere, so we have to hope they feck up their next appointment once Pep’s gone.
Hans Flick, Marco Rose, Tuchel, Klopp and many other top coaches are able to build very good teams that do very well in the Champion League. It's not their fault that you guys are contend with sticking with Ole.Admittedly, it's pathetic but I can't see us getting the better of them with this guy in charge of City.
Where are we going to find a coach as good as he is?
Yet Liverpool won the title against Pep. Liverpool fans didn't complain about never winning the title because Pep is around.What an absolutely bizarre posts. I guess Liverpool's title doesn't count because they won it after Ferguson retired. Please...
And? Does a title only count if you won it against Pep? Do Ferguson's titles not count because he didn't win them against Pep?Yet Liverpool won the title against Pep. Liverpool fans didn't complain about never winning the title because Pep is around.
You guys are worse than Liverpool fans if you ask me.
I assume you’re talking about the Wenger of 15-20 years ago, because modern day Wenger signed the likes of Elneny, Xhaka, Denilson, Jenkinson, & Sanogo, amongst others. He’s the last person I’d trust with money.Give Wenger the same resources and he would have built a better team than what you guys are having right now