Our Progress

[youngrell]

75 points was my target when the season started - just 3 more wins from last year.

We are ending on 71. People can argue its only 4 points but the target was also only 75 points.

Think our progress is exaggerated . We just need a better manager or a coach atleast.

Tuchel, Pep, Klopp will be with full squad next year. Do you really think we will put a title challenge next year ?

You are comparing two seasons with very different endings, though.

Last season we had no room for mistakes in the run in, having to win even our last game against a direct rival for top 4.

Now, season is pretty much done and we are not playing at 100%. It can be disappointing but it’s human nature to drop off, even to the tiniest margin when there’s little to play for.

I’m sure if top 4 wasn’t secured already we’d have seen an improvement over the last few games, and thus more points.

 

[Godfather]

You mean he'd have two Premier League goalscoring machines sat on the bench, instead? What a novel idea, we should give that a go.

No. But if you don't have a guy on the bench that can win you games don't take off the biggest hope you have. That's the whole point. The VdB sub was simply stupid. Those 10 mins of rest Cavani got won't make that huge of a difference.

 

[fergosaurus]

There are two European competitions mate. We're in the minor one and got kicked out of the major one. Lowest points total for a second place team in about 20 years. This is after a low point total to get top 4 last year. Major European cup

Imagine that was posted on RAWK. We'd all be having a good laugh at how hilariously small-time and deluded they are.

 

[432JuanMata]

I said this in the match day thread, Are we on holidays til the Europa final or is this one of them slumps we hit every 3-4 months ? Under Ole we seem to hit slumps and not get out of them for 6-7 games which is a problem

 

[siw2007]

Yes there has been progress, we've improved our league position and have reached a cup final. Also, the product on the pitch is much better in terms of style and resilience. We are however still comfortably behind Man City, we don't have the defensive stability we want and we still lack that balance in attacking positions, and that is why we are still inconsistent and why its important that we recruit well this summer. I am concerned that we aren't going into the final in good form, and could be staring at a troublesome game and result.

 

[SER19]

We don't know that. We've looked shit since the Roma first leg.

Im just saying different seasons have different scenarios and circumstances and going by points alone then you'd have to put Liverpool runners up higher than most Ferguson teams. There's been progress but the last few weeks have made me think i overestimated how much

 

[McGrathsipan]

And if we beat Leicester, Liverpool and Fulham we're 8 points better off. We've taken our foot off the gas over the last week/been forced to in one of the games due to the scheduling. It's fine margins

It's disappointing how the season is finishing in the league but I'm not surprised about the knee jerk reactions such as yours

What about Sheffield United, West Brom and Crystal Palace - our form peaks and troughs with this side and manager.
8 points better off in 2nd place means absolutley nothing.

We have done really well against some really good sides and inversely have been garbage against some utter shit sides.

We are better than we were 2 or 3 years ago but really - not anywhere closer to a title. Thats the barometer.
If we sign 4 top players this summer we might have a chance but I dont see more than 1 decent signing happening.

 

[Ludens the Red]

You're removing ALL context to come to this assertion. We've taken our foot off the gas these last few weeks because we've been SO much better than those below us. If we had more of a challenge, we would have more points on the board. Why is dead rubber factoring into the success/failure of our season?

It's fecking tragic people (not you specifically) are using these meaningless games to reignite thier shitty agendas against our players/manager after being proved utterly wrong throughout the season.

Unfortunately we can’t keep doing this every season and writing off chunks of the season because “it was the start of the season”, “we didn’t have pre season” “Christmas is a busy period” “end of the season dead rubbers”.
We’re not talking about some dropped points on the final day, it’s a considerable drop off with 5 games left.

Teams like Newcastle, Leeds and Arsenal with nothing left to play for are able to pick up points and we are better than all of those teams.

The attitude you're putting forward here is defeatist and if our players have the same attitude we’ve got a big problem.
Im sorry but I just can’t go around chest beating about big improvements and the ‘United way’ when we finish a season with potentially 71 points and fail to win more than half of our home games.
We finished 2nd with 81 points four years ago and you’d have thought we were relegated if you were on here. I myself wasn’t particularly positive that season but I’m not going to change my stripes purely cos the players and the manager are more likeable than the set of 2017/2018.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I worry about us a lot but it's a covid season and I just think you can't really judge anyone fairly.
Anyone claiming the EL is a major trophy needs to think about how we entered that competition.

 

[Fahad Jawaid]

I think with the quality of players we have specially when everybody is fit, we shall be playing better football. We are very much a moments team as compared to team which will pin the other side and keep creating chances galore.

I would not blame entirely on Ole this season as I believe he was not backed in the transfer market, therefore its imperative that he gets the players he wants (i.e. Sancho, DM and CB). Then I expect us to properly challenge City, and get to the later stage of CPL and compete for cups. If after getting backed he manages to scrap us to fourth place with the same style of football then he shall be axed and we should move towards a progressive coach with attractive style of play and modern tactics.

 

[edgecutter]

I worry about us a lot but it's a covid season and I just think you can't really judge anyone fairly.
Anyone claiming the EL is a major trophy needs to think about how we entered that competition.

This.

The fact that City are in the Champions league final and we're languishing around in the Europa makes it very difficult to get excited about. i would take a last 16 defeat in the champions league than this competition, at least you have a shot of winning a major trophy.

 

[charlenefan]

This.

The fact that City are in the Champions league final and we're languishing around in the Europa makes it very difficult to get excited about. i would take a last 16 defeat in the champions league than this competition, at least you have a shot of winning a major trophy.

wow

i don't think you're in any position to be arguing what is and isn't progress then

 

[cyberman]

You are comparing two seasons with very different endings, though.

Last season we had no room for mistakes in the run in, having to win even our last game against a direct rival for top 4.

Now, season is pretty much done and we are not playing at 100%. It can be disappointing but it’s human nature to drop off, even to the tiniest margin when there’s little to play for.

I’m sure if top 4 wasn’t secured already we’d have seen an improvement over the last few games, and thus more points.

The City defensive machine just conceded 6 goals in 2 games since winning has meant nothing and they have their eye on a final.
Anyone trying to affirm their confirmation bias over nothing games needs to give their heads a wobble.

 

[hobbers]

This.

The fact that City are in the Champions league final and we're languishing around in the Europa makes it very difficult to get excited about. i would take a last 16 defeat in the champions league than this competition, at least you have a shot of winning a major trophy.

It's better to think of the Europa League trophy as coming along with the title of "17th best club in Europe"

 

[charlenefan]

The City defensive machine just conceded 6 goals in 2 games since winning has meant nothing and they have their eye on a final.
Anyone trying to affirm their confirmation bias over nothing games needs to give their heads a wobble.

I think the term is take your head for a shit

 

[cyberman]

This.

The fact that City are in the Champions league final and we're languishing around in the Europa makes it very difficult to get excited about. i would take a last 16 defeat in the champions league than this competition, at least you have a shot of winning a major trophy.

Do eliminated teams win many CL titles?

 

[bosnian_red]

And if we don't win that trophy could you still in all conscience call this season progress?

Because points wise it isn't (well, barely). In terms of performances and results in the big games we've gone backwards alarmingly. And we haven't been able to string together two solid halves of good football all season.

Points comparisons between seasons are pretty much always irrelevant. In terms of performances I'd say we're a lot better. A lot more progressive and front footed performances, less reliant on counter attacking or soaking up pressure. Much higher press. Even in big games, we started poorly but got better with that as we showed with the dominant and deserved wins over Spurs and City. 2nd place finish and comfortably finishing 2nd without it really looking like a worry for half the season is a big positive and sign of progress.

If we don't win the cup final, it'll be shit of course and very disappointing. Still progress, but a huge disappointment. Going into the season, what we needed IMO was a trophy and a comfortable top 4 finish. We got the comfortable 2nd place finish. Just need to get that trophy now.

A big thing that people also need to keep in mind was the crazy schedule. We played literally 2 games a week the entire season until April, which no other club had to do. We managed to stay pretty consistent and grind out a comfortable 2nd place finish, despite the horrible schedule this season. It's not a successful season unless we get the trophy, but it's also not a failure of a season if we don't win it, but it'll pretty much decide the mood going forward.

 

[Irrational.]

Posters who don’t give a shit we’ve dropped points to Leicester, Liverpool and now dead and buried Fulham reflect exactly how far we’ve fallen. As if getting to the final papers over all the cracks this season. I bet even if we lose the final there’ll be some mental gymnastics insinuating it’s not important as we’ve qualified for Europe anyway.

Winning games no matter what the circumstance was part of the fabric of this club once upon a time - now fans who dare question the direction we’re going in are accused of being knee-jerk and overreacting.

 

[edgecutter]

Do eliminated teams win many CL titles?

At least you have a shout when you are in the last 16 rather that the B tier competition of a minor trophy.

 

[bosnian_red]

75 points was my target when the season started - just 3 more wins from last year.

We are ending on 71. People can argue its only 4 points but the target was also only 75 points.

Think our progress is exaggerated . We just need a better manager or a coach atleast.

Tuchel, Pep, Klopp will be with full squad next year. Do you really think we will put a title challenge next year ?

If we had something to play for these last 3 games I'm sure we would've reached 75. We still have another game this weekend by the way. Anyway, point target comparisons are kind of pointless. Football doesn't and has never worked like that. Our best ever side got 78 points, our 2nd best got 87 points. Other sides got 89 points and didn't win the title, or 90 points without being close to others.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

This.

The fact that City are in the Champions league final and we're languishing around in the Europa makes it very difficult to get excited about. i would take a last 16 defeat in the champions league than this competition, at least you have a shot of winning a major trophy.

How’s a defeat in the last 16 more exciting than getting to a final.

We don’t make the rules
On competition entry, we just participate. Trophies instill a winning mentality. SAF won his his Utd trophy in the League Cup. It set a
Springboard

 

[CG1010]

Sir Matt Busby Player of the Award winners:

2013-14: De Gea
2014-15: De Gea.
2015-16: De Gea.
2016-17: Ander Herrera.
2017-18: De Gea.
2018-19: Luke Shaw.
2019-20: Bruno.
2020-21: Bruno.

Finally after our goalkeeper winning 4/5 player of the year awards, we aren't reliant on the goalkeeper to win us matches anymore. This is progress.

Having said that we are two tiers behind City in winning the league. One in quality of our football, and second in our mentality and experience. Let's see if the club can bridge the first gap this summer. I am not very hopeful that it will especially as City will also strengthen.

 

[The Hilton]

This is the first time since Fergie retired that we've backed up a top 4 finish with another one.

It's not even a discussion, we've made a huge amount of progress since Ole took over, from 6th place with loads of dead weight and a toxic cloud over the club, to 3rd and several semi finals, to 2nd and a final and hopefully a European trophy.

It's quite silly that the Ole out brigade try to argue the lack of progress line when we've improved every season under Ole. The better question is "can he take us to the next level?", which is a fair question and one that we'll have to wait and see next season.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

At least you have a shout when you are in the last 16 rather that the B tier competition of a minor trophy.

Very odd logic. So I guess you won’t be watching the B grade final then?

 

[ivaldo]

Unfortunately we can’t keep doing this every season and writing off chunks of the season because “it was the start of the season”, “we didn’t have pre season” “Christmas is a busy period” “end of the season dead rubbers”.
We’re not talking about some dropped points on the final day, it’s a considerable drop off with 5 games left.

Teams like Newcastle, Leeds and Arsenal with nothing left to play for are able to pick up points and we are better than all of those teams.

The attitude you're putting forward here is defeatist and if our players have the same attitude we’ve got a big problem.
Im sorry but I just can’t go around chest beating about big improvements and the ‘United way’ when we finish a season with potentially 71 points and fail to win more than half of our home games.
We finished 2nd with 81 points four years ago and you’d have thought we were relegated if you were on here. I myself wasn’t particularly positive that season but I’m not going to change my stripes purely cos the players and the manager are more likeable than the set of 2017/2018.

Those things aren't comparable. We had achieved everything we could achieve this season by the time the last half a dozen games came about. It's inconsequential whether we win, lose or draw those games. We played a team of reserves and kids in one game, we subbed off our 2 inform strikers when we could've done with a goal tonight. That shows where we are.

The points comparison doesn't float for me. It removes the context of a season and it ignores the relative strengthening or weakening of other sides, particularly those in the lower part of the league. We only had 1 team make it beyond the last 16 in that year in the CL. We've got 3 out of 4 finalists this year, clearly demonstrating how much stronger this league has got. The FA cup winners and one of the CL finalists are still scrapping for at top 4 place, something we secured several games ago. City can get a maximum of 86 points this year. That's also well below the total of the winners in the last two years. Again, City have made it to there first ever CL final. I doubt they'd call this a poor year.

 

[cyberman]

At least you have a shout when you are in the last 16 rather that the B tier competition of a minor trophy.

We were in the CL! Last 16 doesnt give you more of a shout than group stages. Both are the same levels of failure.
The amount of shit we got for going out of the worthless Carabao cup at the semi final stage means its a bit rich for our fanbase to look down on winning a European trophy imo

 

[el3mel]

I like the EL trophy personally and that night against Ajax was one of the best nights post Fergie, only second to PSG.

However we really can't just forget we were handed the possibility of challenging for it this year because of our huge failure in CL.

 

[bosnian_red]

Posters who don’t give a shit we’ve dropped points to Leicester, Liverpool and now dead and buried Fulham reflect exactly how far we’ve fallen. As if getting to the final papers over all the cracks this season. I bet even if we lose the final there’ll be some mental gymnastics insinuating it’s not important as we’ve qualified for Europe anyway.

Winning games no matter what the circumstance was part of the fabric of this club once upon a time - now fans who dare question the direction we’re going in are accused of being knee-jerk and overreacting.

What are you questioning? We went from 6th, to 3rd with a last match CL qualification, to a comfortable 2nd place finish with a European cup final to come. Did you demand a title challenge this season? Or would you be happier if we got a few more points from these dead rubbers which would still have us in 2nd? All well and good saying you go to win every game, but when there's nothing to play for, it's not that easy in professional football.

 

[justsomebloke]

Posters who don’t give a shit we’ve dropped points to Leicester, Liverpool and now dead and buried Fulham reflect exactly how far we’ve fallen. As if getting to the final papers over all the cracks this season. I bet even if we lose the final there’ll be some mental gymnastics insinuating it’s not important as we’ve qualified for Europe anyway.

Winning games no matter what the circumstance was part of the fabric of this club once upon a time - now fans who dare question the direction we’re going in are accused of being knee-jerk and overreacting.

I think you're right. It's not good. As long as you don't go totally over the railings and start puffing about ow this shows management is clueless and the players worthless, it's right to be concerned over these performances and our recent record, it does matter. To be fair, dead rubber + the FAs schedule terrorism with the Leicester and Liverpool games obviously impacts, but still.....

 

[hobbers]

Points comparisons between seasons are pretty much always irrelevant. In terms of performances I'd say we're a lot better. A lot more progressive and front footed performances, less reliant on counter attacking or soaking up pressure. Much higher press. Even in big games, we started poorly but got better with that as we showed with the dominant and deserved wins over Spurs and City. 2nd place finish and comfortably finishing 2nd without it really looking like a worry for half the season is a big positive and sign of progress.

One dominant win over Spurs, but dreadful in the reverse fixture, and one over City, but outplayed by Arsenal and Leicester and impotent against Liverpool and Chelsea. We have been god awful in the big games this season, the numbers dont lie.

We also aren't comfortably finishing second, if Leicester win tonight we'll more likely than not end up third.

 

[edgecutter]

Very odd logic. So I guess you won’t be watching the B grade final then?

My point is, we shouldn't be celebrating a run in this competition when it comes from that fact that we failed in the group stages of the CL.

 

[el3mel]

Points comparisons between seasons are pretty much always irrelevant. In terms of performances I'd say we're a lot better. A lot more progressive and front footed performances, less reliant on counter attacking or soaking up pressure. Much higher press. Even in big games, we started poorly but got better with that as we showed with the dominant and deserved wins over Spurs and City. 2nd place finish and comfortably finishing 2nd without it really looking like a worry for half the season is a big positive and sign of progress.

If we don't win the cup final, it'll be shit of course and very disappointing. Still progress, but a huge disappointment. Going into the season, what we needed IMO was a trophy and a comfortable top 4 finish. We got the comfortable 2nd place finish. Just need to get that trophy now.

A big thing that people also need to keep in mind was the crazy schedule. We played literally 2 games a week the entire season until April, which no other club had to do. We managed to stay pretty consistent and grind out a comfortable 2nd place finish, despite the horrible schedule this season. It's not a successful season unless we get the trophy, but it's also not a failure of a season if we don't win it, but it'll pretty much decide the mood going forward.

Our big games record this season is terrible. Only 2 wins out of about 10 is actually pretty bad. If we want to challenge next season we'll need to do better in them.

 

[Dobba]

What are you questioning? We went from 6th, to 3rd with a last match CL qualification, to a comfortable 2nd place finish with a European cup final to come. Did you demand a title challenge this season? Or would you be happier if we got a few more points from these dead rubbers which would still have us in 2nd? All well and good saying you go to win every game, but when there's nothing to play for, it's not that easy in professional football.

Ole simultaneously should be challenging for the title with this high class squad and we desperately need 5-6 top players, most (if not all) of them in starting XI positions, this summer.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

The league has been weird/poor/whatever this year but no-one would have had us strolling to second (almost!) before it began; we've done well in the league and deserve credit. The cups have been a mixed bag; we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in the CL and our exits from both domestic cups were very meek in my opinion. The EL campaign has been good up to now, though given the opposition you'd have to say not reaching the final would have been a pretty major underachievement. Still, we're there so the team deserves credit.

As we sit here now I'm worried about how lackadaisical we've looked for about a month. The Villa game, though we won it, was patchy and before then we had a bore draw with Leeds and gave a shite Roma team five goals over two legs (scored a fair few ourselves of course). While it's worth acknowledging the insane fixture pile-up the last few performances have been downright poor; ideally you'd want a much better run of form to take into a final. All that said if we win the final it's been a good season, if we lose it it'll have a 'one step forward, two steps back' feel for me, in that we're playing better and achieving better finishes but you'd really question whether we're ready to take the next step to challenge regularly for honours.

 

[charlenefan]

My point is, we shouldn't be celebrating a run in this competition when it comes from that fact that we failed in the group stages of the CL.

no it's obviously better to have been in it from the start due to a 5th/6th place League finish clearly

 

[RUCK4444]

We are on course of 5 more points than last season. What a huge fecking progress that is

League position means nothing of course.

 

[acnumber9]

Sir Matt Busby Player of the Award winners:

2013-14: De Gea
2014-15: De Gea.
2015-16: De Gea.
2016-17: Ander Herrera.
2017-18: De Gea.
2018-19: Luke Shaw.
2019-20: Bruno.
2020-21: Bruno.

Finally after our goalkeeper winning 4/5 player of the year awards, we aren't reliant on the goalkeeper to win us matches anymore. This is progress.

Having said that we are two tiers behind City in winning the league. One in quality of our football, and second in our mentality and experience. Let's see if the club can bridge the first gap this summer. I am not very hopeful that it will especially as City will also strengthen.

Our keeper not being as good as he used to be is progress?

 

[OleBoiii]

Like fecking clockwork

1. Points will always matter less than league position. When will people learn this? 2nd place is always better than 3rd place. A final(potentially a trophy) is always better than a semi-final. It's really that simple.

2. We would definitely have gotten more points if we had more than honor to gain. If City only were 5 points ahead, then we would probably have broken 80 points and fought till the very end. When there's nothing on the line, squeezing out those last 10% in games is tough. Especially when there's a cup final waiting. This is not uncommon, so there's no need to single out our team.

3. The distance up to City is big for a multitude of reasons(one of them being the reason above). Ole is the least of our "problems"(I don't consider him a problem at all, tbh).

4. Before the season, no one expected a title challenge. Few thought we could break 80 points. Why are some of you now acting like that is to be expected now?

5. Steps forwards are still steps forward. Don't take them for granted! Chelsea's squad is not much worse than ours. Liverpool's squad was considered way better before the season started. Tottenham have a much better set of forwards.

6. If you don't see an improvement in our general play, pressing, passing and intensity, then I don't know what games you are watching. Perhaps you only see our losses/draws? That would certainly explain it...

 

[tomaldinho1]

Do eliminated teams win many CL titles?

I actually agree with this. As a United fan you live for those home and away CL knock out games versus a Barca, Juve or Bayern etc. It's all about playing the best out there and seeing some of footballs non PL superstars at OT (luckily less of a factor this season without fans). If you go out, you're out and you've had your crack at the elite level for the season - the EL is just a long drawn out comp which inexplicably has more games but average opponents. I get it's a cup and it's great to win anything you are in but it can't be a major trophy when the entry criteria are non CL clubs and clubs not good enough for the CL knock outs.

 

[Coops73]

My point is, we shouldn't be celebrating a run in this competition when it comes from that fact that we failed in the group stages of the CL.

I guess you won’t be watching next week then? Let alone celebrating if we do win it.