I think you mean yet another bad day at the office - and please tell me how you measure improvement: is it that the gap between us and the PL winners was only 12 points and not double that? Believe the PR and spin if you want, but I'm not fooled. We are still a long way off
The EL final loss: a measured response
- Thread starter OleBoiii
- Start date
We had the same number of defeats as City but a feck tone of draws. Part of the defensive and set pieces issue can be addressed with a more competent CB next to Maguire. The rest is training; might sound again as an excuse but we had very little of that this season with no pre season and 2 games per week.
The attack, at least by numbers, is decent, second best in the league. The team is obviously very unbalanced with a dire need for a class RW that I think can have a huge effect on the general way we unlock teams. Right now only the left works and occasionally we switch to the right to AWB while Greenwood is centrally. We are predictable and that can be fixed with players and only with players imo.
We tend to go one summer of heavy spending and one less so. This should be the former so let's see.
Measured response?
Drivel.
We dominated the 2nd half until Emery changed it with his subs. We ie Olé didn't respond.
Rashford should have gone before Greenwood. Surely Amad, James or Mara were worth trying?
This so called measured response is just another sign of the malaise that has afflicted us. Like making a big deal of being unbeaten away from home.
A willingness to accept mediocrity.
Olé out.
Drivel.
We dominated the 2nd half until Emery changed it with his subs. We ie Olé didn't respond.
Rashford should have gone before Greenwood. Surely Amad, James or Mara were worth trying?
This so called measured response is just another sign of the malaise that has afflicted us. Like making a big deal of being unbeaten away from home.
A willingness to accept mediocrity.
Olé out.
My thought exactly. Self-congratulatory ‘measured’ posts like that do little to change the fact that Ole dropped a major clanger last night.
If we weren’t so happy with draws we could’ve taken chances to win some of those games. There were too many games we were happy to not lose. We need to take more chances and that comes from the manager. That attitude needs to change.
Same non sense everytime we shit the bed against lower opposition. Suddenly they aren't so bad, our squads are not that different, they have 4-5 players that would walk into a starting line up, etcThe football forum is a mess now and it's probably gonna be this way until the Euros. Here's a measured response to the big topics related to our EL final loss:
Our opponents
I'm starting with this point because it's possibly the most annoying one. I know that the English bias is strong both in the media and in here, but people are talking about Villarreal as if they're a complete walk-over. It's a La Liga team that has made the EL final and beaten Arsenal over two games to get there. And it's their only chance to get CL football, which means that they are gonna have an additional boost. On top of this, Emery seems to have the EL figured out. This was his 4th(!) EL win in just 7 years. Give the man and his team some goddamn respect.
Yes, we were still the favorites to win. But the gap between us is not nearly as big as some of you make it out to be. Not by a long shot.
The starting lineup
I don't think you could argue too much about the starting lineup. Given the injuries, I think it's possibly our strongest starting XI. There will always be disagreements, though. Especially in hindsight if we lose or draw. This happened on a consistent basis when Fergie was in charge as well. It's the nature of fans on the internet. They always seem to know better than the manager, regardless of who's in charge.
The late substitutions
We were the best team in that second half. Things were clicking(apart from in the final third of the pitch) at least up until the 75th minute or so. And our 4 best players were(in my opinion): McTominay, Shaw, AWB and Pogba.
Who should come off and who should come on? Keep in mind that we are chasing a goal and our only attacking "threats" on the bench are James, Mata and Amad. In case you're confused: there is no good sub to make.
McTominay was on fire during that period so taking him off was not an option. Switching Pogba with VDB or Fred is a defensive move and we needed goals. James has been criticized all year, so if you claim that he was the solution then you're simply lying to push your agenda. Amad is just a kid and he's barely played for us. You could argue that switching Rashford with Fred/VDB and putting Pogba out left was a good solution, but that is also a defensive move and only serves the purpose of fresh(but weaker) legs. Also...
Why did Ole sub Greenwood instead of Rashford?
Greenwood was better than Rashford, but only up until a certain point. After the 70th minute or so Greenwood was gradually becoming as invisible as Rashford, if not more. At this point it all comes down to experience and how much energy you have left. It was the right choice, overall.
So who's to blame?
Why does it have to be one single reason? Why do we need a scapegoat? We simply lost an even game against a decent opponent who were playing for their life(in this case: CL football) and defending their goal with all they got. We were not outplayed. We weren't even the worst team. And we lost after 22 penalties.
No trophies, though
A trophy, even a minor one, would certainly have been nice. But let's not start to pretend that it's the end of the world for us. No manager post Fergie has made the top 4 and won a trophy in the same season. If you were given a choice between a comfortable top 4 finish or the EL trophy, most of you would agree that the former is a much stronger indicator of progress. And quite frankly, the only reason any of you would choose the EL trophy over 2nd is because it also leads to CL football. If the stakes were "comfortable top 4 finish" vs "FA Cup win", almost everyone would choose the former, even though the FA Cup isn't that much worse than the EL. You can move the goal posts all you want, but the long term focus is always the PL and CL.
A final positive note
We have made the top 4 for two consecutive seasons for the first time post Fergie. Quite comfortably as well! We also have a very young team, which can only be good for the long term. The summer transfer window will largely decide the outcome of next season, but let's not complain about lack of transfers already in May, shall we? Take a deep breath and enjoy the upcoming summer!
_______________
EDIT:
Disclaimer, in case it wasn't clear:
I still think we played badly. I do think Ole and the players(our attackers in particular) needs to take a fair bit of blame. But I also find the criticism over the top. I also disagree strongly with some of the points being brought up(which I have addressed in the topic).
That is the nature of a measured response. You can criticise the manager and the performance without painting the whole thing as a complete disaster.
Bottom line is Emery is no master mind and yet he still walk over Ole with a much inferior side, what does that say about our coach?
It was a weird match because we seemed to be so unlucky throughout especially in the 1st half. Things started leveling off in the 2nd half but this is what I noticed:
1. In the 1st half it seemed Villareal were getting the lucky bounce or ricochet time after time. Almost every time they got the ball near our goal they seemed to win a corner. On the other hand, we seemed to win very few corners even though we had the ball near their goal a more. A tackle, an odd bounce, a double header or whatever seemed to go in their favor. I remember one point in the 1st half we took a shot, it was blocked and the ball went high in the air and I thought, finally, we win a corner. However, the ball went almost straight up for the keeper.
2. It seemed this was true for throw-ins. In the 1st half they probably won 70% of all throw-ins because of the odd bounce or deflection. It just gave me a bad feeling.
3. We were also unlucky with not scoring our many good chances. McT had a shot go very wide with an open side netting, Cavani heads right to the defenders head, Shaw cross/shot was close to a touch, Rashford's glorious chance, Rashford's other terrible shots, and Bruno's wide shot. Just not our day.
Others observations:
- I thought Foyth had a great match and pretty much ate Rashford's lunch. This was even more remarkable because he had the nasty nose bleed and head injury early on. Either he is a great defender and we should look to buy, or Rashford was that bad.
- AWB looked really good going forward. He will be a force next season and I hope he keeps improving.
- Bailly just doesn't know how not to foul.
- Greenwood looked pretty good but rarely had a shot.
- McT grew into the match and was on of the few who were willing to put everything on the line to win.
See you all in August.
1. In the 1st half it seemed Villareal were getting the lucky bounce or ricochet time after time. Almost every time they got the ball near our goal they seemed to win a corner. On the other hand, we seemed to win very few corners even though we had the ball near their goal a more. A tackle, an odd bounce, a double header or whatever seemed to go in their favor. I remember one point in the 1st half we took a shot, it was blocked and the ball went high in the air and I thought, finally, we win a corner. However, the ball went almost straight up for the keeper.
2. It seemed this was true for throw-ins. In the 1st half they probably won 70% of all throw-ins because of the odd bounce or deflection. It just gave me a bad feeling.
3. We were also unlucky with not scoring our many good chances. McT had a shot go very wide with an open side netting, Cavani heads right to the defenders head, Shaw cross/shot was close to a touch, Rashford's glorious chance, Rashford's other terrible shots, and Bruno's wide shot. Just not our day.
Others observations:
- I thought Foyth had a great match and pretty much ate Rashford's lunch. This was even more remarkable because he had the nasty nose bleed and head injury early on. Either he is a great defender and we should look to buy, or Rashford was that bad.
- AWB looked really good going forward. He will be a force next season and I hope he keeps improving.
- Bailly just doesn't know how not to foul.
- Greenwood looked pretty good but rarely had a shot.
- McT grew into the match and was on of the few who were willing to put everything on the line to win.
See you all in August.
United had the stronger bench. Being allowed to make 5 substitutions is one of the advantages I thought United had in the Europa competition because we have a pretty good bench. The fact that we didn't use was because Ole did not want to take risks I feel.
The measured approach seems to be one made by intelligent adults who know a thing or two about football.
The reactionary side of the fan base however....
The reactionary side of the fan base however....
I disagree we were happy with draws. I think we can have difficulty to attack due to being so unbalanced it can make it easier to defend against us.
THE EL FINAL LOSS: THE TRUTH
Our opponents
7th place in La Liga. Rode their luck to navigate past 8th placed Arsenal in the semi finals. Squad cost a fraction of ours. All our substitutes would probably start for them. United strong favourites and should be winning this game.
The starting lineup
Bailly and Lindelof looked like a clown show the last time they played together. Bringing Bailly in meant moving Lindelof, causing more disruption. Ole experiments with Pogba at LW countless times, chopping and changing his attack. Then goes back to what wasn't working before with Pogba as a 6. Could have played Pogba on the left and had Greenwood or Rashford on the bench so that we had a really good option. It is a cup final with the potential for extra time afterall.
The late substitutions
£100m worth of Ole's attacking signings on the bench, but no options apparently. Against Villarreal. Had a LW with pace, an AM that's good linking up or has recently played well in CM, a young RW that brings a bit of skill and guile, a bit of an unknown quantity for the opposition. Their LB was tired and was skinned by Greenwood, the writing was on the wall. We never looked like exploiting it again. Juan Mata, experienced and good at retaining and building possession. Would have helped us get a grip on the game once again in extra time. All of these would start for Villarreal. Yet we had no options apparently.
Why did Ole sub Greenwood instead of Rashford?
Beggars belief. Rashford was incredibly poor from the first minute and even wanted to come off injured at one point.
So who's to blame?
At the end of the day, it always lies on the managers shoulders. Especially when you are the strong favourites and have a much better squad. To lose tactically with no answer is on the manager.
No trophies, though
Top 4 trophy mate.
A final positive note
Lingard is returning.
Our opponents
7th place in La Liga. Rode their luck to navigate past 8th placed Arsenal in the semi finals. Squad cost a fraction of ours. All our substitutes would probably start for them. United strong favourites and should be winning this game.
The starting lineup
Bailly and Lindelof looked like a clown show the last time they played together. Bringing Bailly in meant moving Lindelof, causing more disruption. Ole experiments with Pogba at LW countless times, chopping and changing his attack. Then goes back to what wasn't working before with Pogba as a 6. Could have played Pogba on the left and had Greenwood or Rashford on the bench so that we had a really good option. It is a cup final with the potential for extra time afterall.
The late substitutions
£100m worth of Ole's attacking signings on the bench, but no options apparently. Against Villarreal. Had a LW with pace, an AM that's good linking up or has recently played well in CM, a young RW that brings a bit of skill and guile, a bit of an unknown quantity for the opposition. Their LB was tired and was skinned by Greenwood, the writing was on the wall. We never looked like exploiting it again. Juan Mata, experienced and good at retaining and building possession. Would have helped us get a grip on the game once again in extra time. All of these would start for Villarreal. Yet we had no options apparently.
Why did Ole sub Greenwood instead of Rashford?
Beggars belief. Rashford was incredibly poor from the first minute and even wanted to come off injured at one point.
So who's to blame?
At the end of the day, it always lies on the managers shoulders. Especially when you are the strong favourites and have a much better squad. To lose tactically with no answer is on the manager.
No trophies, though
Top 4 trophy mate.
A final positive note
Lingard is returning.
The problem with the starting lineup @OleBoiii was that we put all our eggs in one basket. All of our weapons started the game, Ole gambled and went all in. I thought it was naive and was concerned before the game. We should have kept one of Rashford or Greenwood on the bench to bring on if things went wrong (which they were clearly going too given our starting CB's). I think the is ultimately why we didn't put any subs on as Ole clearly doesn't rate any of the players on the bench last night as game changers.
You know my position on Ole and you know that I think he's the right Manager for us right now. BUT he got it completely wrong last night, every decision. It was one shit decision after another completed with the failure of putting Henderson on at the end. This match sums up Oles weaknesses in one neat bundle. If Ole truly wants to continue to be Manager for us then he has to hire an experienced tactical coach to help him in this department as his ingame management is for me his greatest flaw.
You know my position on Ole and you know that I think he's the right Manager for us right now. BUT he got it completely wrong last night, every decision. It was one shit decision after another completed with the failure of putting Henderson on at the end. This match sums up Oles weaknesses in one neat bundle. If Ole truly wants to continue to be Manager for us then he has to hire an experienced tactical coach to help him in this department as his ingame management is for me his greatest flaw.
We are shit.
That's a very fair point. We gotta be fair to Ole - Had City not had endless money, i.e hired the best coach and an extreme squad-depth, Ole would have been winning the league.
Of course you can't just asterix a team out in the equation, but if we are measuring Ole, it should be done against what his material has been vs his position and (lack of) trophies. When you think of what he took over, he has gotten us quite far.
Greenwood looked dead on his feet when he came off.
Didn't think the OP was that measured so to help out I have measured the post. 864 words in total, so roughly about 864 words too many in illuminating the situation. .
Lvg and Mourinho did win us cup finals, to be fair.
Intention of the thread was nice but it's pretty clear it's an 'Ole in' vs 'Ole out' crowd with BOTH sets as rabid and uncompromising as each other. The mental gymnastics to justify the defeat (squad depth ....vs fecking Villarreal, a team less than 20% of our budget) vs the lack of acknowledgement for the things that have been done well by the club (two successive top 4 finishes in successive seasons during a rebuild) is a bit tedious. For what it's worth:
- We lost to the underdogs who only had one hope of winning this match which was to keep it compact and try and nick a win and they did it perfectly. To be honest, calling it a smash and grab is a bit insulting to them; they weathered a second half storm but it's not as if they were hanging on all match.
- When the onus was on us to be the big boys and not just a reactive counter attacking team we faltered again. Had this match been against a bigger club with better players we would have been the ones to adopt similar tactics to Villarreal. I really really hate that we've become a team that likes to be the underdog. That's not Manchester United.
- Maybe players like Mata, VDB, James should have been utilized more during the season instead of running Rashford into the ground. Play them into some form?
- One coach turned the game with his subs and introduced fresh legs and readdressed the balance of the game that was turning against him. The other didn't.
- It's still been a reasonably good season with clearly visible progress. Next season has to be a proper title challenge though and no more excuses.
We are going to be fighting for top 4 again next season with the mentality the OP is showing.
Some fans are deluded if they believe we are going to be one of the teams in England that will improve loads over the summer and invest money in a smart way.
Some fans are deluded if they believe we are going to be one of the teams in England that will improve loads over the summer and invest money in a smart way.
Good post. A much better 'measured' assessment of the situation. The hyperbole on both sides as you point out isn't helping anyone. Seems pretty clear to me Ole has done a good job, he's obviously steadied the ship from when we were in a bad shape. But there are very obvious red flags as to whether he can take us any further. Definitely arguable he deserves another season, but given the status of the club if they were to try and scale up, absolutely no-one should be surprised. It wouldn't be surprising if any other European 'super' club did it, not sure why we are an exception.
Good manager prepares team for match. Makes good scouting and gives morale boost. Our said; "we didn't turn up". Good manager can change game during the game. Not just with subs. Change of formation, style, players position etc...our did that in 110th minute!!
On top of that, lets not pretend that we had 10 u18 players on bench. We had better bench than they and they did 5 subs before 90th minute.
But Olein guys just can't understand that. It is all about Dave, Lindelof and Ed.
The way I see it, we should never have even been in the Europa League in the first place. If the team didn't stupidly lose that game in Instanbul in the CL group stage, they would have went through to the last 16 and never even got to the EL final. I would have preferred we qualified for the last 16 than win the EL, so to me, winning the EL was only a consolation and a bit of a cop-out anyway.
Well, we finished 1 place higher in the league, 8 points better off, won more games than last season, lost fewer games, scored more goals. We reached a final this season after missing out on them last season. Players like Shaw, AWB, Greenwood, McTominay all had better seasons than last, can't think of anyone who had a poorer season than last except Martial and DDG. We are still a long way off from City but that doesn't mean there hasn't been an improvement. We need better players to really go neck to neck with City but that's up to the recruiting department.
After a summer of signing an unfit Cavani, 2 kids and 2 backup players people were expecting us to win trophies and be a point or so of the PL title, then it's their faulty expectations to blame.
Whereas Rashford looked dead the whole game
As an onlooker, rather than a United supporter, and therefore with a dispassionate take on the matter, I’m surprised that you expect any different.
What you get out of Ole is what you’d reasonably expect to get from a manager lacking high level experience, he’s good and with the resources of the biggest club in England he’s got you to 2nd place in the PL and a runner up spot in the Europa, but he’s not the finished article and he will polish his act.
There are many positives. He’s improved season upon season, he’s getting more out of your squad than he did when he first arrived and IMO he’ll be better again next season.
Regards losing to Villarreal; he’ll have learnt a lot from that and if you played them again tomorrow then he’d use that knowledge and beat them, as you would beat them every week if you played them every week for the next decade.
They’re crap compared to United on every level except management experience, their manager had been there before and won it before whereas Ole was on work experience.
I think that you should put more trust in Ole, he’s shown that he can learn from his lessons. In fact, as a City supporter, I can vouch in all honesty that the results of recent derbys show that he can have the measure of Pep on occasion.
First things first, it’s a one off cup knockout tie and as such presents the most statistically even playing field for a smaller club to mount an upset. Play a two legged tie, and the team with superior players invariably wins the tie. Giantkillings will happen invariably in one off ties.
Saying that, this was a giant killing in the true sense of the phrase. As Swiss ramble pointed out pre-match -
“Financial comparison between UEFA Europa League finalists Manchester United and Villarreal. Based on this, United are clear favourites: revenue is 5 times as much (£509m vs £86m), wage bill 4 times as much (£284m vs £73m) and squad cost 6 times as much (£831m vs £142m)”.
This should therefore have been a done deal in terms of a United win given a reasonable degree of competence. That’s where this falls down. Emery, to quote one of his players at Sevilla in a fourfourtwo article on him, is
“a colossal pesado [pain in the arse] and the players hate him,” revealed one unnamed player. “Team talks went on forever, players fell asleep, video sessions were interminable, as was dead-ball practice. You watch videos for hours and hours and think it’s a load of bollocks... but it works. It’s so relentless that in the end every single player knows exactly what he wants.”
This is the essence of coaching, and this was the difference last night. One team came with a plan, drilled to within an inch of their lives, having rehearsed their roles to such mind numbing repetition that they sleepwalked through a pre-prepared plan with barely a foot put wrong.
The other team came with no plan, assuming their superiority would be enough in the absence of any coherent game plan or strategy. You can endlessly replay the deficiencies of this player or that on the night, but the buck stops with the man sat in the dugout.
Saying that, this was a giant killing in the true sense of the phrase. As Swiss ramble pointed out pre-match -
“Financial comparison between UEFA Europa League finalists Manchester United and Villarreal. Based on this, United are clear favourites: revenue is 5 times as much (£509m vs £86m), wage bill 4 times as much (£284m vs £73m) and squad cost 6 times as much (£831m vs £142m)”.
This should therefore have been a done deal in terms of a United win given a reasonable degree of competence. That’s where this falls down. Emery, to quote one of his players at Sevilla in a fourfourtwo article on him, is
“a colossal pesado [pain in the arse] and the players hate him,” revealed one unnamed player. “Team talks went on forever, players fell asleep, video sessions were interminable, as was dead-ball practice. You watch videos for hours and hours and think it’s a load of bollocks... but it works. It’s so relentless that in the end every single player knows exactly what he wants.”
This is the essence of coaching, and this was the difference last night. One team came with a plan, drilled to within an inch of their lives, having rehearsed their roles to such mind numbing repetition that they sleepwalked through a pre-prepared plan with barely a foot put wrong.
The other team came with no plan, assuming their superiority would be enough in the absence of any coherent game plan or strategy. You can endlessly replay the deficiencies of this player or that on the night, but the buck stops with the man sat in the dugout.
It is worrying as Merson points out in a piece in sky sports. Whoever wins the CL is playing Villareal in the super cup. If it is City they will comfortably win 3 nil. If it is chelsea, they will get a tough but controlled win. Chelsea for christs sake have only had tuchel for six months and already there is a noticeable difference.
Just depressing since Ferguson left. I was saying as well to my friend last night that even if we won on penalties it was a terrible performance by the team.
Just depressing since Ferguson left. I was saying as well to my friend last night that even if we won on penalties it was a terrible performance by the team.
Here’s another measured response - This was our best chance to lift a European trophy (or any trophy for that matter) for the foreseeable future. Against a team where the odds were very much in our favour. We had 120 mins to try to score a goal against a team which didn't even try to counter, and we couldn’t muster a good chance, let alone goals. The coach didn’t make one sub to change the game when most of our attack was playing like shit.
There’s no excuses for Ole on this one. We have a comfortably better squad than fecking Villarreal, with all due respect to them. If we bottled it against this team, I can’t imagine what would happen in a CL semifinal or final against elite opposition. What I can infer from the number of knockout matches we have lost is that this team doesn’t have what it takes, and the manager can’t take them any further forward.
I think Ole has done a great job of getting us to 2nd place in the PL. But I don’t think he can take us to anything greater.
There’s no excuses for Ole on this one. We have a comfortably better squad than fecking Villarreal, with all due respect to them. If we bottled it against this team, I can’t imagine what would happen in a CL semifinal or final against elite opposition. What I can infer from the number of knockout matches we have lost is that this team doesn’t have what it takes, and the manager can’t take them any further forward.
I think Ole has done a great job of getting us to 2nd place in the PL. But I don’t think he can take us to anything greater.
Actually a decent point. Not impossible ole could evolve though. Bored to tears hearing how he has been coaching ten years so can't improve, it's impossible
I remember hearing how arsenal only had arteta for 6 months and there was a 'style of play' haha
OP that isn't a measured response -it's a list of excuses for last night. The below repsonses are all focused on Ole's in-game management last night vs his season which has been better than our previous few.
1st - In no circumstances should Rashford have played 120 minutes and Mason only 70.The only thing Marcus did well yesterday was his penalty, but sub him in regular time and it possibly wouldn't have come to that. James is a very limited player but we were playing against a very limited team and despite them sitting back Rashford had plenty chances to run at people and either didnt (waiting on Shaw to overlap by which time defence was settled) or then couldn't with his attempts trying to dribble 2,3 or 4 instead of passing at the right time. He has been like this for months so it was no surprise. James might have been equally ineffective at worst, but his direct nature might have paid more dividends against a side that didn't really have pace at the back - he gambled the wrong way in my opinion.
2nd In no circumstances should DdG have started, or once started stayed on for penalties - Henderson on the whole has been better this season when played (though both have dropped clangers in individual matches). Given we had no leader in maguire on field the second best leader for the defence would've been Hendo. We all knew even just from the last couple of league games that the defence was rudderless w/o maguire - give them the best chance by starting Henderson.. or if we are going to penalties then give us the best chance to win that lotto with a better penalty keeper.
3rd no he didn't use his subs well - it was visible that after our spell of scoring we flagged - that was the time to bring on subs especially in reponse to Emery's own tactical substitutions (like removing bacca to defend more to preserve the lead). It became more apparent during the first period of ET..we waited to long ad then made defensive subs.
4th - The starting 11 was our best 11 fit players but not our best team it was unbalanced and didn't allow for any game changing sub. Once the big players didn't perform (Rashford, Bruno, Pogba to a lesser extent) there was little to do.
Better to start slow and burn bright in the end than start slow and have nothing to burn later.
1st - In no circumstances should Rashford have played 120 minutes and Mason only 70.The only thing Marcus did well yesterday was his penalty, but sub him in regular time and it possibly wouldn't have come to that. James is a very limited player but we were playing against a very limited team and despite them sitting back Rashford had plenty chances to run at people and either didnt (waiting on Shaw to overlap by which time defence was settled) or then couldn't with his attempts trying to dribble 2,3 or 4 instead of passing at the right time. He has been like this for months so it was no surprise. James might have been equally ineffective at worst, but his direct nature might have paid more dividends against a side that didn't really have pace at the back - he gambled the wrong way in my opinion.
2nd In no circumstances should DdG have started, or once started stayed on for penalties - Henderson on the whole has been better this season when played (though both have dropped clangers in individual matches). Given we had no leader in maguire on field the second best leader for the defence would've been Hendo. We all knew even just from the last couple of league games that the defence was rudderless w/o maguire - give them the best chance by starting Henderson.. or if we are going to penalties then give us the best chance to win that lotto with a better penalty keeper.
3rd no he didn't use his subs well - it was visible that after our spell of scoring we flagged - that was the time to bring on subs especially in reponse to Emery's own tactical substitutions (like removing bacca to defend more to preserve the lead). It became more apparent during the first period of ET..we waited to long ad then made defensive subs.
4th - The starting 11 was our best 11 fit players but not our best team it was unbalanced and didn't allow for any game changing sub. Once the big players didn't perform (Rashford, Bruno, Pogba to a lesser extent) there was little to do.
Better to start slow and burn bright in the end than start slow and have nothing to burn later.
Anyone else having a bad day today? I am just pissed off and depressed.
Hey @OleBoiii , I understand the urge to stand by the manager and put a positive spin on last night. Beyond the result, and I would have said the same if we won on penalties, what stood out to me was this passage of play in the first half of ET, when Villareal were pressing us high on our half and we couldn't get the ball out. There were like 2-3 minutes of De Gea to Lindelof to Bailly to AWB back to De Gea panic station passing where we were passing the ball like hot potatoes trying to get rid rather then be brave with the ball and somehow play out from defense into midfield. (And yes it happened against Liverpool at OT) That was the most disappointing thing in the whole night.The football forum is a mess now and it's probably gonna be this way until the Euros. Here's a measured response to the big topics related to our EL final loss:
Our opponents
I'm starting with this point because it's possibly the most annoying one. I know that the English bias is strong both in the media and in here, but people are talking about Villarreal as if they're a complete walk-over. It's a La Liga team that has made the EL final and beaten Arsenal over two games to get there. And it's their only chance to get CL football, which means that they are gonna have an additional boost. On top of this, Emery seems to have the EL figured out. This was his 4th(!) EL win in just 7 years. Give the man and his team some goddamn respect.
Yes, we were still the favorites to win. But the gap between us is not nearly as big as some of you make it out to be. Not by a long shot.
The starting lineup
I don't think you could argue too much about the starting lineup. Given the injuries, I think it's possibly our strongest starting XI. There will always be disagreements, though. Especially in hindsight if we lose or draw. This happened on a consistent basis when Fergie was in charge as well. It's the nature of fans on the internet. They always seem to know better than the manager, regardless of who's in charge.
The late substitutions
We were the best team in that second half. Things were clicking(apart from in the final third of the pitch) at least up until the 75th minute or so. And our 4 best players were(in my opinion): McTominay, Shaw, AWB and Pogba.
Who should come off and who should come on? Keep in mind that we are chasing a goal and our only attacking "threats" on the bench are James, Mata and Amad. In case you're confused: there is no good sub to make.
McTominay was on fire during that period so taking him off was not an option. Switching Pogba with VDB or Fred is a defensive move and we needed goals. James has been criticized all year, so if you claim that he was the solution then you're simply lying to push your agenda. Amad is just a kid and he's barely played for us. You could argue that switching Rashford with Fred/VDB and putting Pogba out left was a good solution, but that is also a defensive move and only serves the purpose of fresh(but weaker) legs. Also...
Why did Ole sub Greenwood instead of Rashford?
Greenwood was better than Rashford, but only up until a certain point. After the 70th minute or so Greenwood was gradually becoming as invisible as Rashford, if not more. At this point it all comes down to experience and how much energy you have left. It was the right choice, overall.
So who's to blame?
Why does it have to be one single reason? Why do we need a scapegoat? We simply lost an even game against a decent opponent who were playing for their life(in this case: CL football) and defending their goal with all they got. We were not outplayed. We weren't even the worst team. And we lost after 22 penalties.
No trophies, though
A trophy, even a minor one, would certainly have been nice. But let's not start to pretend that it's the end of the world for us. No manager post Fergie has made the top 4 and won a trophy in the same season. If you were given a choice between a comfortable top 4 finish or the EL trophy, most of you would agree that the former is a much stronger indicator of progress. And quite frankly, the only reason any of you would choose the EL trophy over 2nd is because it also leads to CL football. If the stakes were "comfortable top 4 finish" vs "FA Cup win", almost everyone would choose the former, even though the FA Cup isn't that much worse than the EL. You can move the goal posts all you want, but the long term focus is always the PL and CL.
A final positive note
We have made the top 4 for two consecutive seasons for the first time post Fergie. Quite comfortably as well! We also have a very young team, which can only be good for the long term. The summer transfer window will largely decide the outcome of next season, but let's not complain about lack of transfers already in May, shall we? Take a deep breath and enjoy the upcoming summer!
_______________
EDIT:
Disclaimer, in case it wasn't clear:
I still think we played badly. I do think Ole and the players(our attackers in particular) needs to take a fair bit of blame. But I also find the criticism over the top. I also disagree strongly with some of the points being brought up(which I have addressed in the topic).
That is the nature of a measured response. You can criticise the manager and the performance without painting the whole thing as a complete disaster.
I don't want to go into the subs, or any specific individuals or anything like that. To me, the fact that Manchester United, CAN'T GET THE BALL OUT OF THEIR OWN HALF against Villareal is damning. And that's on the coaching staff.
Liverpool lost a Europa League final before going on their little run at winning trophies.
As long as we build upon what we achieved this season, build on the squad we have with true quality and learn from our mistakes after this loss I really couldn't give a toss that we missed out on the Europa League.
As long as we build upon what we achieved this season, build on the squad we have with true quality and learn from our mistakes after this loss I really couldn't give a toss that we missed out on the Europa League.
It is intrinsically flawed to form a judgement from one game. If a VR player had put the ball wide in the penalty shoot out we would have won but nothing else would be different.
What matters is the big picture and the big picture is that we haven't won a thing for ages. We shouldn't even have been in that competition. This while Chelsea and City are in the Champions League final. There is a huge amount wrong at our club but you cannot extrapolate it from one game alone.
What matters is the big picture and the big picture is that we haven't won a thing for ages. We shouldn't even have been in that competition. This while Chelsea and City are in the Champions League final. There is a huge amount wrong at our club but you cannot extrapolate it from one game alone.
Brilliant post, OP. I’m happy with the progress, our form dropped at exactly the wrong time. Trophies aren’t everything, especially not right now. It would have been really nice though.
I completely agree with the decision not to make subs, if anything I reckon subs would have caused us to lose in regulation time as the loss of quality is huge. The players out there didn’t even look that tired, it was actually the defenders that looked the most gassed, strangely enough. All four of them.
Our form just wasn’t there, hasn’t been for a month or so. Perhaps we need to improve squad management throughout the season, but Ole had problems here too. Whenever we attempted to rest Bruno and Rashford, the guys we put in could never get the job done. And how often were we cruising in a league game and could take players off after 60 minutes? Hardly ever. Even in one game I recall we were up by three goals and took Bruno off after 80 minutes, and ended up almost losing. People want us to bring Mata on for “fresh legs”, the bloke hasn’t had fresh legs since 2015. I will forever stand by my assertion that nobody on the bench would have helped us win this game, even if we’d made all five subs after 65 minutes. The form just isn’t there, look at the state of our shooting and crossing last night for a prime example. That ain’t even management, it’s players being in terrible form. Which happens. We’ve been MUCH better than this last season, but unfortunately we didn’t turn up when it counted.
I’ve seen so many garbage takes after this game, it’s unbearable. We just lost a game on penalties. Sad, but that’s football. I don’t think we played for penalties, but extra time was clearly 30 minutes too far after a very long season.
I completely agree with the decision not to make subs, if anything I reckon subs would have caused us to lose in regulation time as the loss of quality is huge. The players out there didn’t even look that tired, it was actually the defenders that looked the most gassed, strangely enough. All four of them.
Our form just wasn’t there, hasn’t been for a month or so. Perhaps we need to improve squad management throughout the season, but Ole had problems here too. Whenever we attempted to rest Bruno and Rashford, the guys we put in could never get the job done. And how often were we cruising in a league game and could take players off after 60 minutes? Hardly ever. Even in one game I recall we were up by three goals and took Bruno off after 80 minutes, and ended up almost losing. People want us to bring Mata on for “fresh legs”, the bloke hasn’t had fresh legs since 2015. I will forever stand by my assertion that nobody on the bench would have helped us win this game, even if we’d made all five subs after 65 minutes. The form just isn’t there, look at the state of our shooting and crossing last night for a prime example. That ain’t even management, it’s players being in terrible form. Which happens. We’ve been MUCH better than this last season, but unfortunately we didn’t turn up when it counted.
I’ve seen so many garbage takes after this game, it’s unbearable. We just lost a game on penalties. Sad, but that’s football. I don’t think we played for penalties, but extra time was clearly 30 minutes too far after a very long season.
Honestly for me, I would have loved a trophy, but the loss does open our eyes to a lot of glaring issues and receives enough attention that those issues can be analyzed and addressed. We have not finished the rebuild and the squad as currently constructed, is good enough to win cup competitions, not lose many games and easily maintain a top 4 spot. What we currently have is a team that's hard to beat, but to win the league, we need a team is hard not to lose against.
Last night, all of our problems were displayed at different segments throughout the game:
Our ability to handle set pieces this season has been atrocious. Without Maguire in there, it looks almost too easy to threaten us at set pieces.
Outside of Maguire, not of our defenders are actually at consistently dealing with one on one situations, whether aerially or on the ground. Their positioning, awareness and lack of strength are consistently exposed and therefore provide an outline for teams who are under pressure to counter against us. One long ball to our right hand side usually leads to the opposition having sustained possession in our half. Ironically, both AWB and Shaw are excellent and handling those one on one situations.
Our midfielders hurt our ability to build up quickly, every single one of them that play in the double pivot ( Pogba included). They lack the ability to consistently provide a proper passing option ( positioning), control the ball under pressure ( first touch), hold the ball ( strength and balance), move it quickly ( awareness) or progress the ball ( dribbling and passing). Most players do not have all these abilities, but even having a few would help to significantly move the ball quicker. Pogba is the only one that can do a few of these things, but the problem with him as light night showed, he tends not to want to come deeper and support the defence, and even when he does manage to do that, he holds on to the ball for too long without even attempting to progress the ball positively. Last night he moved the ball quickly once or twice. This is a feature in which most decent teams are able to do consistently. In big games, this feature is what determines who dominates possession and who is forced to sit back. It the reason why we can't attack outside of a hard press in big games ( usually lasting for 10 minute stretches). We can't progress the ball because of our midfield's inability to do so.
AWB and Shaw were our main sources of creativity when Bruno was marked out of the game. For me, our wingers were both too high and central, so were consistently on the periphery of the game. Having one of the wingers drop deeper to support the midfield would have helped us in breaking Villareal down. This is the benefit of playing Pogba on the left.
In midfield, not a single player was able to make incisive progressions that could get the ball to our attackers in more dangerous areas or spaces. Fred and Mctominay don't have the ability to do this and yesterday showed why we have struggled in this area for the past 5 or more years. Pogba isn't actually good at consistently doing that either.
Last night, all of our problems were displayed at different segments throughout the game:
Our ability to handle set pieces this season has been atrocious. Without Maguire in there, it looks almost too easy to threaten us at set pieces.
Outside of Maguire, not of our defenders are actually at consistently dealing with one on one situations, whether aerially or on the ground. Their positioning, awareness and lack of strength are consistently exposed and therefore provide an outline for teams who are under pressure to counter against us. One long ball to our right hand side usually leads to the opposition having sustained possession in our half. Ironically, both AWB and Shaw are excellent and handling those one on one situations.
Our midfielders hurt our ability to build up quickly, every single one of them that play in the double pivot ( Pogba included). They lack the ability to consistently provide a proper passing option ( positioning), control the ball under pressure ( first touch), hold the ball ( strength and balance), move it quickly ( awareness) or progress the ball ( dribbling and passing). Most players do not have all these abilities, but even having a few would help to significantly move the ball quicker. Pogba is the only one that can do a few of these things, but the problem with him as light night showed, he tends not to want to come deeper and support the defence, and even when he does manage to do that, he holds on to the ball for too long without even attempting to progress the ball positively. Last night he moved the ball quickly once or twice. This is a feature in which most decent teams are able to do consistently. In big games, this feature is what determines who dominates possession and who is forced to sit back. It the reason why we can't attack outside of a hard press in big games ( usually lasting for 10 minute stretches). We can't progress the ball because of our midfield's inability to do so.
AWB and Shaw were our main sources of creativity when Bruno was marked out of the game. For me, our wingers were both too high and central, so were consistently on the periphery of the game. Having one of the wingers drop deeper to support the midfield would have helped us in breaking Villareal down. This is the benefit of playing Pogba on the left.
In midfield, not a single player was able to make incisive progressions that could get the ball to our attackers in more dangerous areas or spaces. Fred and Mctominay don't have the ability to do this and yesterday showed why we have struggled in this area for the past 5 or more years. Pogba isn't actually good at consistently doing that either.
I don't think we'll ever win anything with Ole in charge, and I'm ready to be ridiculed if he proves me wrong. Last night felt like a watershed moment, it was like Mourinho's Sevilla moment.
It's not a game per se that is the problem, it's a series of crucial games lost - or the fact that we can't overcome Sevilla and Villareal in consecutive EL seasons while Chelsea easily dispatch Atletico and Real Madrid in the CL. We're just not at the required level, and I fail to see how Ole gets us there.
I have a feeling we might be feeling worse after the ucl final.
There weren't chunks of the forum defending those managers?