Good post.
Ancelotti was bloody good and all. So was Costacurta and Donadoni was no slouch either.
Best club side ever?
- Thread starter Spoony
- Start date
Good post.
Ancelotti was bloody good and all. So was Costacurta and Donadoni was no slouch either.
You’ve got the comprehension skills of a three year old.
It was a young winger Rummenigge to be fair, his emergence as a world-class player pretty much coincided (although I'm not entirely sure if it was a coincidence) with Müller's decline. You should've mentioned Breitner, who was a world-class left back at that time (before leaving for Madrid and reinventing himself as an even better midfielder).
Still, that Bayern side was actually heavily contested domestically by Borussia Mönchengladbach (to the point where many considered the latter to be the best German side of the 70's) & Ajax completely outclassed them when Cruyff was still there. They also got quite lucky with their European Cup opponents over their three-year-winning spell (not that they weren't a very, very good side filled with all-time greats) — and it's hard to overlook their (!!) 10th place finish in 1974/75 Bundesliga season as well as very convincing wins by Dynamo Kiyv and Anderlecht in two consecutive European Supercups.
There's an argument to be had for Sevilla under the stewardship of Emery.
A European powerhouse.
A European powerhouse.
As with most, much as I hated them and hated watching the games because they were so one sided, Pep’s Barça was about as good as it gets.
When literally every opponent is penned into their own box and can’t break out because they’re so dominant then it reduces every match to a glorified attack vs defence training game. That’s what they did cause they were so good.
When literally every opponent is penned into their own box and can’t break out because they’re so dominant then it reduces every match to a glorified attack vs defence training game. That’s what they did cause they were so good.
Absolutely. I rate Tassotti quite highly as well (although he's obviously not an all-time great), the only ones who look completely out of place at this level are Galli & Colombo.
Ryan Mason's Tottenham Hotspur
98-99 Utd
07-08 Utd
67-68 Utd
Pep’s Barca
08-09 Utd
probably in that order.
07-08 Utd
67-68 Utd
Pep’s Barca
08-09 Utd
probably in that order.
They wiped the floor with United at OT and to they weren't even trying. But you don't win the EC and Serie A as regularly as they did unless you're great. People forget how competitive and strong the SA was back then.
I'd have The Babes as our greatest but sadly they weren't allowed to truly blossom.
Pep's Barca for me. But interestingly it's not the 10/11 version that won a treble, they lost the Copa to Real Madrid. It was the 08/09 version that won the treble.
The heights Barcelona reached in 2010 and 2011 especially those demolition jobs they have done on European royalty like us and Real Madrid are unsurpassed in the modern game. It was not just the results, they have genuinely made European elite clubs play like underdogs to an extent I had never seen before.
Barcelona 2009-2011 was the best side I have ever seen, you could have assembled a team of all the best players in the world at the time to play against them and they still would have lost
would have probably been my next pick even based on what they did do.
I don't think so. There have been a lot of spectacular results in this regard in the last 10 years.
That's gluttony, you went too far with this one.
Mid 90s Ajax always seemed like they were unstoppable.
Milan, United 99, Barcelona.
The trifecta.
Don't think Barcelona would cope with those two teams either based on styles. Just too strong and powerful and dynamic and mentally strong.
The trifecta.
Don't think Barcelona would cope with those two teams either based on styles. Just too strong and powerful and dynamic and mentally strong.
That’s the thing with asking who was ‘best’. For me as amazing as Pep teams are they take the joy out of the game by being too good.
I guess it depends on best vs most entertaining and if there is a crossover point. Utd in 2008 and Real Madrid under Zidane certainly had elements of vulnerability allied to fantastic football. We were beatable but also incredible.
Our 2008 team would of been in the conversation if it wasn't for Barcelona.
True, Bayern demolished Barcelona in 2013 and of course 8-2 last season. Then there was Real Madrid demolishing Bayern during the Ronaldo years.
As good as that AC Milan team was i would prefer the attacking flair & formation of the Barcelona team and the Ajax team... This is the kind of formation i would like to see United play.. only if we had a player like Kante.
No one has dominated games with the same consistency and made every game a question of "will the other team be able to hold on?" for at least 2 years running like they did.
Henry was past his peak, but he was still world class netting 26 goals that year. Valdès was by no mean a weak goalkeeper, not as good as the rest of the team for sure, but you can't call that weak.
Milan on the other hand had to field players who didn't even make their NT, so in this comparison Barça edges them.
Yup that's true, so were Messi Xavi Iniesta, the thing is due to the restrictions at the time Milan had to field weak players like Tassotti/Colombo/Evani while Barça and all other post bosman teams could just throw money to get a World class player at each position.
I don't know if i would say that Milan's team had a better defense or if it does it would be the tie breaker betsween the two teams. Afterall Pep's Barça had the best defense in Europe in 2011 when it comes to goals conceded. And if we are going by this metric Pep's Barça perform better than the milan team and that's taking into account the fact that the Milan team played in a far more defensive Era, which makes it easier to put up good defensive number but harder to put up good offensive ones.
In 1990, Milan conceded 0.79 Goals a game, and 0.73 goals a game in 1988, which a worse figure of Barça 0.55 goals a game in 2011 (These are league numbers).
The only year where Milan Edges Barça is in 1988 with 0.47 Goals conceded a game. But again these numbers have to be put into context. Only 2.1 goals a game were scored in the serie A of 1988 compare to the 2.7 goals a game of Laliga in 2010-11 season.
And this stark contrast really shows when you compare the attacks of both teams as Milan in 1988 scored 1.43 Goals a game, while Barça put up 2.5 Goals a game.
This looks counter intuitive to say that Barça had a better defense than Milan, seeing how on paper the Milan team seem superior. One way to explain that could be that Barça defended very well as a team, their hard press whenever they lost the ball made sure that their opponents didn't get many chances to threaten the goal.
Now of course i'm sure that using goals scored/conceded in the league is not enough of an argument to determin which one was better or more dominant, but i think the elements presented here indicates that a statement like Milan having a better defense is not as true as it seem to be.
IMHO opinion, post Bosman teams have an unfair advantage when we compare them to pre Bosman teams as they can field as much talent as they want. It is no coincidence that we say the rise of super teams who casually finish above the 90 point mark in the league since the 2000's, something that was exceptionnal when teams could only field 3 foreign players at once.
Pep Barca, from my time.
From historical perspective, probably:
1. Real Madrid during 1950s (Di Stefano, Puskas era) - 5 CL
2. Pep Barca (Messi, Xavi, Iniesta era) - 2 CL
3. Milan during 90s (Van Basten, Gullit, Rikjaard, Baresi, Maldini) - 2 CL
4. Ajax during 1970s (Cruyff era) - 3 CL
5. Bayern during 1970s (Beckenbauer, Muller era) - 3CL
6. Real Madrid under Zidane (Ronaldo era) - 3CL
From historical perspective, probably:
1. Real Madrid during 1950s (Di Stefano, Puskas era) - 5 CL
2. Pep Barca (Messi, Xavi, Iniesta era) - 2 CL
3. Milan during 90s (Van Basten, Gullit, Rikjaard, Baresi, Maldini) - 2 CL
4. Ajax during 1970s (Cruyff era) - 3 CL
5. Bayern during 1970s (Beckenbauer, Muller era) - 3CL
6. Real Madrid under Zidane (Ronaldo era) - 3CL
I can only assume that you haven't actually watched AC Milan? Those numbers that you've stated are very much pointless unless you want to go and actually do a serious research (I'm not even sure how long would it take someone) and count in at least all the factors that you can count in. Comparing La Liga of late 00's/early 10's to Serie A of late 80's/early 90's is a bit ridiculous.
1989/90 Serie A
Milan — goes without saying
Napoli — Maradona, Ferrara, Careca etc.
Inter — Zenga, Brehme, Bergomi, Matthäus, Klinsmann etc.
Juventus — Zavarov, Schillaci (Golden Ball at the upcoming World Cup) etc.
Sampdoria — Pagliuca, Vierchowod, Cerezo, Mancini, Vialli
Roma — Völler, Giannini, Berthold & ageing Conti
Atalanta — Caniggia
Bologna — Cabrini & Bonini
Lazio — Di Canio, Ruben Sosa
Bari — actually no truly outstanding players
Genoa — Collovati
Fiorentina — Baggio, Dunga
Cezena — no outstanding players but a certain Marcello Lippi as a manager
Lecce — no outstanding players
Udinese — Balbo, Sensini
Hellas Verona — Peruzzi
Cremonese — nah
Saying that Tassotti is a weak player because he wasn't starting ahead of Bergomi & then continuing to state that Abidal, Pique, Puyol and Barcelona's version of Henry were all-time great talents? Seems legit.
Barcelona 08-11 and especially 10-11.
Valdes
Alves Pique Puyol Abidal
Xavi Busquets Iniesta
Villa Messi Pedro
Alves Pique Puyol Abidal
Xavi Busquets Iniesta
Villa Messi Pedro
I avoid mentioning teams I’ve never watched in these discussions. From the teams that I have watched in my lifetime, Pep’s Barcelona were the best, and by a long distance at that. I have simply not ever seen a team dominate other teams they way they did.
With sufficient time, patience, and another 5-6 solid and ambitious transfer windows, I think Ole will build a side that will be part of this conversation in the future.runs for cover
As it stands, has to be Pep’s Barca.
As it stands, has to be Pep’s Barca.
Peps Barca
I tend to settle on the Milan and Barcelona teams, sitting on the fence by saying that Barcelona would win an all-time league made up of the greatest clubs sides, while Milan would win a CL or knockout equivalent.
I agree with your main point here that the post-Bosman squads are more stacked. But to be fair to those Milan players, that Italian team was seriously talented as well, particularly at the back where they had incredible unprecedented depth. In most eras someone like Tassotti would have got 50-80 caps, but then he had to settle to be an occasional reserve because he had an all-time legend like Guiseppe Bergomi ahead of him (same goes for the raft of under-rated quality Italian left-backs who operated in the shadows of Maldini).
Barca 09-11. Doesn't matter to much about individual quality if you can't get the ball off them.
In my life time it has to be Pep’s Barcelona of 2008-2011/2012. Their results speak for themselves but when you watched them play live, you were just in awe of them and the way they just popped the ball around effortlessly. On top of that, they have influenced the game immensely since then with many teams borrowing their ideas.
Barca 09 to 11 seeem to be the main ones.
Utd - 1999 would have given them a game, Roy Keane would have seen off that midfield on his own. No doubt about it.
Real 01 to 03 - in terms of pure talent is one of the best / most entertaining sides I've ever come across. The 4-3 game with Utd is probably one of the best games of football I have ever seen. I still watch the highlights every now and again.
Figo, Zidane, Ronaldo, Raul, Morientes, Carlos, Hierro, Casillas, Makelele. Just sheer quality all over the pitch. When I think about it, there were so many good players spread all over Europe at that time too.
Utd - 1999 would have given them a game, Roy Keane would have seen off that midfield on his own. No doubt about it.
Real 01 to 03 - in terms of pure talent is one of the best / most entertaining sides I've ever come across. The 4-3 game with Utd is probably one of the best games of football I have ever seen. I still watch the highlights every now and again.
Figo, Zidane, Ronaldo, Raul, Morientes, Carlos, Hierro, Casillas, Makelele. Just sheer quality all over the pitch. When I think about it, there were so many good players spread all over Europe at that time too.
You got really confrontational on this one which i believe is not the best stance if you want to lead a fruitful conversation or we can part ways with our own preconceived notions.
I didn't say that Pique, Puyol, Abidal... were all time great talent, i was answering a user who said that Barça team had weak parts compared to the milan team, which was not true because when you compare tassotti or colombo with players like Abidal and Puyol, there is a great difference in quality.
Now i know that talent was more spread out in pre bosman era, however how much does a world class player improve an average team ? Grealish for exemple is World class but he can't do much with the Villa squad. So i don't think world class players on average teams would be enough to be a serious challenge to what is supposed to be a GOAT team.
And if anything this list feeds the argument that post Bosman teams are generally more stacked than pre bosman ones, because they are able to field World class players at any single position, and mid table teams can not retain their world class talents.
So all in all, i don't think that we can draw solid conclusions based on the argument you presented.
I agree, that backline was GOAT-like and that Milan team was maybe the best of all time pre bosman, not denying this.
Though i have trouble understanding why Tassotti is held in such a high esteem considering that he never was considered for the national team, he only got called once Sacchi took over and he even then he was not the first choice to start.
Zidane's Real Madrid side that won three CL's.
Objectively speaking, Pep's Barcelona were not unbeatable in Europe. They drew a fair amount of games, and Guardiola is famously not-so-good on CL away ties. Their first CL, at least on results per round, is somewhat underwhelming.
They were excellent, of course. But the playing style makes them seem a little more invincible than they were, as well as the overlap with the Spanish NT which won the three major titles in a row.
They were excellent, of course. But the playing style makes them seem a little more invincible than they were, as well as the overlap with the Spanish NT which won the three major titles in a row.
Well, because Bergomi, who played right back for Italy, was one of the best defensive right backs of all-time. Not everything can be judged by binary standards, you always have exceptions and Tassotti’s international career was one. AC Milan once won a league by scoring 36 goals in 34 games — because Tassotti, Costacurta, Baresi and Maldini didn’t allow anyone even a sniff at their goal. In the same season Tassotti captained that Milan team in the incredible CL final where they beat Barca’s dream team at their brilliant best... with both Baresi and Costacurta missing the final.
Colombo wasn’t a great player, but he was a good one. Evani was a very good player who still didn’t quite match his teammates’ incredible standards. Gallo wasn’t all that, but you could’ve had Tin Woodman there for all that matter as you’ve had do get through the greatest defense that a club football had ever seen first. A defense that Tassotti was a key part of, even though he was the weakest individual there.
That defense had 100 clean sheets in 204 games, conceding 0,68 goals per game. They’ve broke clean sheet records, they’ve broke longest consecutive minutes without conceding in Serie A record...
The irony was that he only became a semi-regular past his peak. In terms of average media ratings, he was the highest rated right-back in Serie A for much of the late 1980s, but couldn't get a sniff of the national team. Simply put, there was a lot of competition and not a lot of experimentation. The competition wasn't just from Bergomi, but Ferrara came through in the late 1980s and was the more 'experimental' option in any friendlies. And it was a slightly different era for international football with 25% fewer games and no dead rubbers in easy qualifiers given the Euros was an 8-team competition and the World Cup was made up of 24, where every qualifier was a crunch game. So there were fewer chances to test out squad players and, as a result, managers liked to replicate successful components of club sides to ensure they worked straight away. As we saw with the Scirea/Gentile partnership from Juventus in 1982, the Maldini/Baresi axis at Milan, and the Bergomi/Ferri duo at Inter. These partnerships were rarely broken up. And it was only when Sacchi introduced a load of Milan players en masse that he received his overdue international recognition.