There is a player called Paul Pog… never mind.
Declan Rice
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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I like Declan Rice, he certainly puts his all in, he is young, plays with passion,works hard for the team and subsequently is appreciated by his team mates,even though he is not a luxury player...i think we are all being put off by the high value price which is understandable--- but that doesnt make him a bad player. English players are vastly overpriced anyway. I remember us paying 18.6million for michael carrick many years ago and fans going mad saying we vastly overpaid at that time, what a buy he turned out to be.
I think for 50mill plus lingard we could work this out, i'd rather see a player at utd like this as opposed to arrogant self important players on higher wages swanning about thinking they have made it .
I think for 50mill plus lingard we could work this out, i'd rather see a player at utd like this as opposed to arrogant self important players on higher wages swanning about thinking they have made it .
What makes him a bad player is his awful first touch, poor spacial awareness on the ball and the magnet like suction to pass backwards or sideways to his centre backs instead of into his forwards.
I feel like people are trying to convince themselves that he's good because of a few links in the press. If he wasn't linked to us we'd be laughing right now.
There's a reason why even Chelsea rejected him AGAIN with Rice, Mount and Lampard practically begging for the transfer to happen.
Even trying to compare him to Carrick is frankly bonkers, they are nothing alike.
Was he rated as the next Mark Noble when he came through at West Ham? Cos no one will be splashing out 80M minimum on Mark Noble
Fred is a bang average CM who excels at absolutely fecking nothing other than running and pressing opponents. It's laughable that we paid 50m pounds for such a limited footballer.
I agree completely, especially CDM like Rice who excel in those kind of set ups, same as Fred who excels in counter attacking teams who have very little control over games and often are overrun in midfield. However one of them is just 22 and already the better player, with more potential.
Football is a game of luck and I agree everyone needs their lucky brake, Bellingham is a top talent who if developed properly can play in any midfield in the world. Henderson is also a pretty good midfielder who would start for Manchester United for example considering how we consistently play someone as average as Fred.
Glad I'm not alone in thinking Rice would offer nothing more than running his arse off and although I'm no Fred fan, think it would actually be a downgrade because at least Fred shows for the ball in tight situations, regardless of his dodgy first touch. Rice hid last night a few times and didn't show for the ball. I don't want that type of player in a United shirt.
He's very limited on the ball and struggles against the press, big challenge for him against that Italian midfield on Sunday.
I think the Italians will sit on Shaw and Phillips and cut off any rhythm and supply line and they will isolate Kane further up the pitch. I would genuinely have Italy as favourites. I bet Rice gets a lot of time on the ball on Sunday. We will see what he’s made of.
Not sure. The Italians have barely given anyone time on the ball. I can see Barella around him nicking balls off him throughout.
Sterling with give them the most trouble with his quick movement. As he has for every team England face.
If they decide to play negatively, and to be fair they will have to set up defensively to deal with Sterling and Kane. Id say they’ll let him off. He can’t hurt them on the ball and he’s decent enough at evading the press. I bet they let him have loads of it and press his passing options instead. Just my two cents.
Hahaha snap @RedorDead21
That wasn't the case in the last game or the 2nd half against Belgium.
One pair area regulars for Dortmund and Tottenham. The other pair regulars for Leeds and West Ham.
I really like Declan Rice, I'm not surprised to see that's controversial as players in his mould pretty much always are. Carrick and Fletcher were similarly berated, as is Henderson for Liverpool.
If you want to win a title though it seems to me that teams always have a player like that playing for them. Fernandinho at City, Henderson at Liverpool, etc, players some fans will quite simply never rate as highly as maybe they should.
If you want to win a title though it seems to me that teams always have a player like that playing for them. Fernandinho at City, Henderson at Liverpool, etc, players some fans will quite simply never rate as highly as maybe they should.
I think the notion of him being an impenetrable wall with questionable forward output has been put to bed, and that's a bigger problem than his passing and technical abilities at the highest level. I think the former can be sold to a fanbase, and even if not to your liking, the logic and usefulness of such a player in 'unlocking' others is the big selling point. You've already made the point in your last paragraph, though so I'm just retreading ground here.
On another note, one big problem with how DM's are generally being assessed by most is blurring the lines between deep-lying playmakers with hybrid DM skills, or certainly those who are interchangeable with those qualities. Carrick, Xabi Alonso, Busquets, Pirlo none of them are barometer for what's needed or possible in the market. They're outliers, not the norm.
Its difficult to dislike Declan Rice, likewise Fletcher and likewise McTominay. For me Carrick was so much more than hardworking and likeable. His ability and composure on the ball orchestrated United for years. When we dictated the tempo and entertained. Finding a “new Carrick” to fill a much needed starting spot in midfield is vital. To link defence with attack, to take and give under pressure , to feed our attacking talent. I don’t know who this player is but I know it’s not Declan Rice.
Rice seems like an excellent CDM in a team where your backs are against the wall and you’re playing a more defensive-minded system to try and restrict the opposition. When he’s thrust into a role that requires a more proactive style of play to try and pin a team back with progressive passing he looks a bit lost. Probably why he looked like a man possessed against Germany last week but out of his depth yesterday.
He still obviously comes with a lot of positive intangibles in terms of attitude and leadership and there’s zero worry about how he would adapt to the pace and physicality of the Premier League. But, still, I think his limitations on the ball would be very apparent in ~70% of our games next season and exacerbated further by playing next to McTominay or Fred.
For the Maguire-esque fee West Ham would demand I feel like we could get much better value elsewhere. Locatelli and Camavinga as a pair have a (purported) combined transfer fee less than the one mooted for Rice as an example.
Having said that, Lampard was willing to ride or die for Rice and now it seems Tuchel and Ole have similar levels of admiration which is obviously matched by Southgate’s trust so maybe I’m just missing something.
He still obviously comes with a lot of positive intangibles in terms of attitude and leadership and there’s zero worry about how he would adapt to the pace and physicality of the Premier League. But, still, I think his limitations on the ball would be very apparent in ~70% of our games next season and exacerbated further by playing next to McTominay or Fred.
For the Maguire-esque fee West Ham would demand I feel like we could get much better value elsewhere. Locatelli and Camavinga as a pair have a (purported) combined transfer fee less than the one mooted for Rice as an example.
Having said that, Lampard was willing to ride or die for Rice and now it seems Tuchel and Ole have similar levels of admiration which is obviously matched by Southgate’s trust so maybe I’m just missing something.
One minor disagreement I'll make, although I think we're more or less agreed, is that Carrick, Xabi Alonso and Busquets were definitely defensive midfielders. Pirlo definitely wasn't though.
I remember, once upon a time, Del Bosque getting a lot of flak for the double pivot of Xabi Alonso and Busquets being too negative. Carrick, likewise, was labelled a crab for going sideways too much.
Pirlo a completely different type of player. Carrick, Xabi Alonso and Busquets are natural ball winners. They might not win the ball like a Mascherano or a Cambiasso or a Kante. However, they are, fundamentally, defensive players. They excel at the back of midfield, screening the defence, usually with great positioning, and they don't mind getting into physical battles. It was no issue for Carrick to partner Scholes, Xabi to partner Modric or Busquets to partner Xavi and to act as their back ups (I know for Busquets it was slightly different cos Iniesta played in an orthodox #8 but you get my drift).
Pirlo, however, as you say is definitely not defensive midfielder. He was a deep laying playmaker. He was not ever in any kind of ball winning role.
In truth Manchester United aren't strong for either style of midfielder. However, the most pressing absence is a proper replacement for Carrick.
Additionally, I would not consider such midfielders exceptions per se. There are plenty around the world of football. If Man Utd aspire to being back at football's top table we need to have one. You can argue that teams like City and Liverpool have at least two of these types of midfielder, Fernandinho and Rodri, Fabinho and Henderson respectively. Although, IMO, Henderson's distribution and all round play is a level or two below Fabinho's. Which makes it even more obvious that Rice isn't the right type for what we're missing, as Henderson came on last night and instantly looked a more polished, more accomplished player than Rice.
It was the case until they were in the lead in both games. Which is when Italy always feel comfortable in defending such lead.
Their midfield had the run around by Spain later on though, which can be said about most teams vs Spain to be fair.
Precisely, Carrick , who for me is United’s most underatted player of the modern era , is still to be replaced. We are Manchester United and if we want to dictate and orchestrate matches we need to pay someone to do it. Let’s entertain, let’s feed our attackers, let’s not play like England and please let’s not sign Declan Rice.
Imagine thinking this when he is one of the best in the league at interceptions, pressures, tackles, and recoveries.
Imagine thinking it’s “laughable” we paid 50m for Fred and also advocating we pay 60+ for Rice
I dont agree, certainly not in terms of how he has played for West Ham the last couple of years. he is still a young player and has improved a lot each season with Wet Ham since breaking through. These are not recent links, a lot of people have been monitoring Rice for a long time now.
I agree he is a different player to Carrick. Where there are similarities though and important ones regarding what we need I feel is Rice is an intelligent player defensively, his positional awareness reading the game is very good liek Carricks was, plugging up holes in the middle of the pitch. I think his short passing with the ball is also improving and he has shown signs of West Ham of driving forward with the ball more and having a good shot around the box.
I think he has a little bit of everything that he can improve upon and is a quality player, jstu look at how West Ham stuggled when he was out injured.
The prohibitive part of Rice as a signing is of course the price and maybe being similar to our current options to a degree, but I thhink he is far better.
I think rather than people over rating him ,it smore the opposite as an over relianve on the modren game of wanting super technical players.
I am still of the view we need two central midfielders. If we were to sell Pogba for a decent fee along with Lingard and a couple of others.....RIce and Camavinga would be an excellent partnership fpr the double pivot. Camavinga can be that playmaker for us with his dribbling and give and go as well as giving us a big improvement on the defensive part and Rice can plug up all those holes. I think they would give us all the good parts of our current options without any of the bad parts, the only thing we lose is the long range passing abilities of Pogba, but we gain so much more
Your descriptors aren't incorrect, but I added the caveat of them blurring the lines of what people assume a 'DM' to be when the reality is they are almost hybrids for their freakish deep-passing qualities married to their ball-winning (Pirlo accepted).
The bunch you mention in your last paragraph are more like it - hard to find, but out there if you look hard enough. It's just when people mention 'another Carrick' or the like, you're entering the realm of fantasy in tangible worth. The only grouping rarer are ball-retainers, but there doesn't seem to be any talk of even trying to get one of those.
Agree about Henderson vis-a-vis Rice, the difference in ability, or at least the confidence to execute, was like night and day.
I often wonder why we're not scouting La Liga, Serie A or Brazil for this elusive player we want as these nations have academies that nurture the role and players who not only understand what they provide but realish doing so above anything else.
Rice appears to be a specialist who isn't actually a specialist, which makes him doubly undesirable, really.
The guy seems very confused to be honest. Thinks Fred is the worst midfielder in the world but would happily play £80m for Rice who is even more limited
I don't think he's the level we need tbh. He looks very limited at the moment. I think the issue for me is how does he improve the team? In bigger matches we tend to fend well enough with fred and mctominay, I think he will fit in there, but not really improve that. The only way he improves that is if he can help bring us composure on the ball, which I just don't see with him.
In games against lesser teams where we need to be on the front foot? I don't think he will help us much in possession and I have doubts if he can cover the midfield area solo to prevent the counter attacks. We can say he has potential, but not at that cost. There's quite a few players out there with potential that would be less than half the cost of Rice.
In games against lesser teams where we need to be on the front foot? I don't think he will help us much in possession and I have doubts if he can cover the midfield area solo to prevent the counter attacks. We can say he has potential, but not at that cost. There's quite a few players out there with potential that would be less than half the cost of Rice.
Struggled?
They won their first 2 games without him against Wolves and Leicester. They then lost 3-2 against Newcastle with 10 men, 1-0 against Chelsea with 10 men, then beat Burnley away 2-1. The last game they lost 1-0 at home to Everton.
Rice returned for a 1-1 draw at home against Brighton.
I'd say if anything they barely noticed a different with a 34 year old Mark Noble in midfield. I think that says it all!
Not that he hasn't had a good tournament, he has, but for me his perceived value has decreased over this period. I say this as someone who has never valued him over the £45-50m range, but there are many who claim we should be paying that sort of price even including Lingard. He is a perfectly serviceable and adequate defensive midfielder but nothing more than that, so any talk of a transfer fee over £50m should be put to bed. He simply isn't outstanding enough to warrant consideration at a price beyond that.
Did you read that in my post somewhere or somewhere in your b*tthole?Imagine thinking it’s “laughable” we paid 50m for Fred and also advocating we pay 60+ for Rice
At least when you post about me tag me, in order to rebuff false claims and rubbish talks than you seem to make. Neither I think Fred is the worst midfielder in the world, neither I think Rice is worth 80m, so don't talk bullshit.The guy seems very confused to be honest. Thinks Fred is the worst midfielder in the world but would happily play £80m for Rice who is even more limited
An absolutely ridiculous purchase for the most overrated player in the England team. We have better options in our squad. What does he do? Loses possession...passes sideways and backwards...has no killer pass. A typical automaton with Zero flair or imagination. Maguire is more creative and effective and he is a defender. Please dont let him anywhere near Old Trafford.
Definitely not in my bumhole, although it certainly was an opinion that stunk of poo poo…
Fred for 50m is laughable, but you’d rather we go spunk 80 fecking million on Rice. What, the, holy, feck.
Tbf he's pretty good defensively imo. But of course that's not enough, especially for the big clubs.
If we are selling Pogba then I don’t think we will buy Rice. Rice would be the perfect midfielder to cover the defensive inefficiency of Pogba. Without Pogba you would rather have someone who’s more box to box in there who can contribute to the attack as well. Like Saul maybe.
If his price wasn't high before, it'll sky rocket after England getting to the final, irrespective of his individual performances.
When there's someone like Camavinga available for a third of the price, Rice doesn't make sense.
When there's someone like Camavinga available for a third of the price, Rice doesn't make sense.
We ain’t signing Rice.
And that’s the way it should be. Hope the renties sign him and this link can permanently go away
On second thought, maybe its good thing Wesh Ham has effectively priced Rice out of the market. No one will stupid to pay 80-90m for him for sure.
This opens up all other possibilities, such as 30-40m for Camavinga.
This opens up all other possibilities, such as 30-40m for Camavinga.
Don't see us buying Camavinga either. I think we will stick with the current midfield, and put Lingard on a new deal to preserve his value. Maybe if we lose Pogba next year we will buy Camavinga.
His deal expires next summer, so we're probably looking to steal a march on other clubs by bringing him in early. I don't like Romano but seems to be quite a bit of smoke with this.
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